Guild Wars 2

Unfortunately ATM DE is must in any shatter build
Sure you can run without it but you will have harder time killing or staying alive
And for me it’s bit slower killing

I also tried up with mtd but felt wired with it

very bad play by me yesterday with wife talking kid crying and above all 2 sec lag for me and engi ally
but funny moments and great ending

(also sir koroshi with his warrior on the enemy side – gg )

another fun scenes with mtd. few with another mtd friend who keep yelling me not to share the build as he ended up fighting one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh95Y8Lhl_w&feature=youtu.be

BlackDevil.9268:

It’s getting quite hard for me to not become to personal with you lol.
You do realise when someone mentions anything with ’’numbers’’ that it should be stated with facts and calculations right? I don’t think a single player, or maybe some random hotjoin player, cares about any of the video’s you’re posting to prove your point.
Especially when you’re making a thread to compare the damage of power shatter vs. condi shatter.
All you came up with was some troll video. You’re slowly becoming part of the reason people tend to troll when talking about condi mesmer. Come, bring up some nice maths how your massive condi damage outdamages power mesmer and what combo’s are used for that.
How reliable is that combo to hit, how hard is it to pull off and how long do such combo’s take to pull off. How many conditions do you apply with that and what’s the rate of reapplying those conditions when almost instantly cleansed? And not to forget, how much damage does this combo deal in 5 and in 10 seconds. Since most kills are gained by quick bursts, I wouldnt count too much on condi bursts over 5 seconds though.

i can give you numbers and calculations but the main thing i think you will bring up is that the enemy will imminently cleanse while in fact in real fight they w8 until 50% hp or lower and then cleanse or if they see aoe conditions on their group then they will cleanse or big stacks

as FAY said the main objective of this build is to control your enemies to dont move much and dont use skill much or use theirs utilities and skills to cleanse fast early giving my team an advantage

BlackDevil.9268:

No you’re just not looking well enough. Jurica just showed a video of some skill level that could never ever be achieved on a condi mesmer. Such plays allow mesmer to somewhat still participate in the meta. The problem with condi mesmer is that you can’t make such plays, so there’s no reason to take a condi mesmer if the skill cap is capped at hotjoin level.

Also if you actually wanna compare it, rather go bring up some numbers, instead of comparing two completely different situations with different builds.

the problem is when i show the numbers you all telling the enemy were noobs thus no conditions should have tick to them at all.

and 1 move (in probably unranked against thief who is dog revealed his location ) but amazing one doesnt bring 1 build to the meta

so if this build is suitable for 95% of the tpvp games as only 5% are elite players so be it

Fay.2357:

Ok, so I’ve made my position on the viability of MtD shatter quite clear in the past: I feel that it is viable at any level outside of WTS play, along with every other reasonable mesmer build.

That being said, the “comparison” being shown this video is misleading at best, and a deliberate falsification at worst.

You’re comparing a 10 second clip of helseth being forced to autoattack from 1000 range due to heavy pressure on a point to a whole bunch of shatter bursts executed at close range under mostly light pressure. This is really no comparison at all, it just doesn’t make sense.

If you actually wanted to make a reasonable comparison of the best damage power shatter could offer, you’d have included snippets of Vashury deleting people, but that wouldn’t have made the point that you’re trying to make, would it have?

Ultimately, power shatter and MtD shatter fulfill substantially different roles, play substantially differently, apply substantially different types of pressure, and overall do damage in a substantially different way. Trying to directly compare the two for any reason is truly foolhardy.

Also.

BlackDevil.9268:

No wonder you don’t do good on any power spec.

Your ad hominems are getting real old BlackDevil. I’d recommend trying to come up with some real arguments in the future.

it wasnt my intentions to make a bias comparison but pls check all the ESL videoS where mesmer are out there . you wont see any different in most scenarios.
maybe its a problem with the mesmer being left out the meta but its more a thief game style and role.

i just tried to compare the same scenarios . like attacking far in a solo or group play and than compare the dmg output
sure the power mesmer can down in 1 burst combo but does it happen a lot in tpvp?
also i hardly see mesmers video in tpvp as the build shines in wvw mostly as roamer. does it make the build unfit the tpvp? no!

it suppose to be an examples to the ppl who said conditions cant do high dmg output versus the power one in tpvp. so 2k torment ticking for 2-3 sec and confusion 3-4k for 2-3 sec. even when low on condi stacks the burning 700 torment 500-1000 confusion 500-1000 and 3 bleed 300 can do nice 3k dps

Wile.5024:

messiah.1908:

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

Hahahhaha take a look at the first 1v1 theif fight for example:

- Fight took over a minute NOT 5 SECONDS
- Several bursts were needed
- Both anticipate others movements and counter
- All skills and utilities are used
- Mesmer is at an disadvantage due to thief s/d
- Bursts did around 75% of thieves hp everytime, 80%+ the final blow THIS DOES NOT EQUAL 3000-4000hp You think straight up lying about the power damage is a good idea?

Your thief fight on the other hand: 10seconds, 1 diversion shatter (lol) from t4 stealth…. thief did not dodge or cleanse or do anything, he just spammed aa with confusion and run a circle before dying…

Both the mesmer and the s/d+p/p thief on the wvw sunburst vid show much more skill than you in any of your vids. Any player with at least some experience can see that right away.

wow common you see what you want to see

i was fighting 1v2 thief and power necro both burst high dmg in sec.
i said 3k-4k dps its mean dmg per second which is very high not total of 3-4k dmg

in sunburst vid the first fight was against mesmer and thief came and SR . common who SR on dead with gs mesmer out there and trying to res. and then third thief came with p/d and s/d mostly used p/d used SS and SR without needed them . so if using all your utilities making you good wow.

dont go there pls as i can see bad thieves or maybe thief who exploring power p/d instead
and i dont want to say anything about my opponents also.

BlackDevil.9268

play i played with for the last 2 years as i mainly explore for new build

p/d thief full venom share – panicond – my build
p/d power build
pu condi mesmer – hardly for short time just to experiment
hybrid med guard – in tpvp also after played power med guard
condi guard – in wvw
power ranger
condi ranger
trap power thief
s/d/f ele
condi full signets ele
power shatter for a year – like every build out there so i dont have any comment to add on it
d/p thief
s/d thief even before it came the meta
power necro
condi necro
hardly warrior as i got bored with it
no engi for me yet

so i might have good idea about condition and power build as well
it just seem you just overlooked the power ones

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

in deso i usually if i find 1v1 a zerg come in so rarely good dueling is to be found

but yes great fights and burst dmg

Wile – you basicaly saying that against heavy armor helseth shouldnt have engage at all or try to burst with F1 F2 gs attacks but as condi which ignore armor mmm….

and again top tier player versus top tier player
me – low-mid player versus low-mid players ( or am i top tier who play in the lower tier lol)

guys you took it way way way

days of footage – didnt – took it from the youtube from the last ESL and watch helseth almost in every fight he had in the ESL. check it too if you like you may see 1-2 burst dmg but all the rest is the same . i looked for his higher dmg he put out and put it in.

sure you can put power burst which will show 10k dmg rotation and that is fine and cool
i just manage to show the same . it doesnt matter if the player is good or bad.

ITS dmg demonstartion ppl! sure i can do 500 dmg or 3000 dmg or even no dmg at all

you never hear me saying condi is better or superior

sry if my english is not so well but i say condi versus power
not condi better then power

so i think you make an assumptions

but pls make a video of power shatter of 1 game and check your dps all over the game period. you will see very low dps compare to condi. but i am sure your effectivness in the game can be better then condi or even the same

i think you first want to ask yourself does condi really needed in tpvp at all?
also what your team think of it also

if your team lack burst dmg than dont go condi
if the enemy team composition is around the cele meta than condi can be good as power
if the enemy team comp around bursty classes than condi can be great if you team got 1 bunker or support
if you get targeted that its doesnt matter condi or power

if your team on ts cordiante a kill than go power so 3 of you bursting 1 in 3v3 but also 2v1 should bring someone down fast under 3 sec. so condi can fit in aswel
if your job is to cap point harrass etc… you can go condi aswel

there is no right or worng here

really hard to argue with that
i dont play condi engi but yes those guys can aoe the kitten and have also CC boon and blast finisher especialy with heals ad water field

but after testing with some friends engi versus condi mtd – the later does more dps and some even aoe.
the engi can proc poison, burning (more 1v1) few bleed stacks 3-5, confusion 5 1v1 mainly
so his aoe dmg is mainly poison and burning and few bleed which are more in a 10 sec rotation in average

while mesmer does torment and confusion and burning and bleed and poison and weakness (negate dmg) and vulnerability if traited in lower rotation in average

but yes engi bring aoe water field with 2 blast and boons and block and cc. which are more important to the group

but consider 1 engi and 1 mtd shatter . engi hold close and mesmer rotate the mid and far….

i put out the vid to show the DMG not my or the enemy skill
one of the warrior dodge once – didnt helped him at all. the other warrior used shouts and get off the point cause of the pressure.
the warrior cleanse 3 times ( which you fail to see it) and 3 times got conditions on him
the thief and necro was so want to burst me i felt it was the right time to shatter leading to the thief death (and mine cause i didnt press the swap target and used moa on a almost dead thief)

it seems that you think that good or great player can dodge every shatter or cleanse right away. good player versus good player can stack shatter and conditions like in power shatter good player can dodge the shatter block it etc…

regarding skill cap – power shatter is hard i know and felt it and can be boring. but the most hard part is to learn how to catch the right moment to shatter your enemy for huge burst and not to get spotted by the enemy.
in MTD because you take more risks like dive in and shatter you need to be more careful. also need to avoid being spotted. need to know when to fint the right moment and stand on aoe and block it to proc torment etc…
i put helseth moments because in every tournament i failed to see high dmg out of his build (he is the greatest player for sure) but guardian just dodge his shatter his AA is weak 300 dmg from staff and from GS 2k dmg which lead to lower dps. sure 1v1 i dont want to handle this guy but in team fight even LB ranger can do better (check the seconds fight of them as the thief change to ranger)

i just want to show you that you can pull out some nice dmg from conditions
even if its for 1 tick its can be 2-3k dmg like the power one.

i am not trying to be best at 1v1 in fact put me in king of the hill and i will loose
but i like more team fight where i can target the ranger from the cliff and shatter his face 2 times for 4-10k dmg while he is pew pew till he understand he need to bail off
i like to catch the ele on water and using heal skill and use confusion of him and shatter right after he swap attunments forcing him to bail off the point for 3-5 sec
basically i look how i can take an enemy and and disable him for couple of seconds with confusion – dont use skill, torment – dont move, burning – must to cleanse etc…

i dont think whole of the players are bad. i think they just dont used to handle so much conditions pressure as every build as some mention got only 1 cleasne utility.

and pls mailmail put your vids up asap

just watch some of the ESL fights with TCG and i am speculating that the sustain dps of power might be lower then the condi in some scenarios

sustain dps – dmg over the time of the fight and not a burst

here is the examples (play with guildy who tried mtd also. i didnt try to go for the win just to cap moments in 2 tpvp fights for dmg, but we won)

(why am i the only one who puts mtd condi videos)

Wile.5024:

Both have constant dps, both have burst even if condi burst duration is longer (MtD).

not true – power need to AA or use skills to do constant dmg. while condi dont. as conditions ticks even when the mesmer dont use any skills till they get cleanse

Wile.5024:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say but I see them both having decoy, blink and an optional slot. Sure you can take away blink and pick something else but that applies to power too.

blink – must
decoy – must in power. not in condition
? – free utility to power and 2 for condition

Wile.5024:

Is there a huge difference? You can kill engis with both… celes and warriors seem very hard to kill for both and I’m pretty sure you get pushed off the point or die… I don’t exactly call that “handling the cele meta”.

power shatter wont try to go for engi or ele or shout warrior as it just losing time else where even in 2v1 . while condi can handle them 1v1 soften them for fast kill in 2v1 or 1v1 without get push off point (engi yes with his turrets)

Wile.5024:

This…. just complete nonsense…. If I start to murder someone with my power shatter you’re telling me he won’t heal, dodge, counter, use invuls etc?

it seems you taking in as 1v1 in perfect world scenarios where you stand freely un-targeted . power shatter maybe push the enemy to dodge often or use heal skill. but condi push them to use shouts and other cleanse skills also.

Wile.5024:

Why I think power is better than condi: For me personally it’s the speed and surprise + the incredibly useful illusionary persona trait… such utility in 1v1s and in team fights, when stomping, ressing, interrupting, defense, when you need that one extra hit to down someone or one boon stripped.

Wouldn’t trade these BIG advantages to SLIGHT advantages that condimesmer brings.

thats what i meant. both are good in different ways and personal taste.
dont forget as power shatter you will be targeted constantly giving you hard time to do constant and sustain dps

in a perfect 1v1 (king of the hill) power shatter all the way. in group fight when you team got dps guard/ranger/thief i dont really knows

Bunda.2691:

Q: what are people’s thoughts on torch vs. pistol offhand for pvp condi?

torch – give me burning, stealth, blind, confusion and blast finisher and not so important illusion to shatter and give it up

pistol – stun/daze, stack bleed around 3-6, i dont like to lose him for shatter

thus i like torch

guys till now i havent read even 1 reason why power better then condi although i dont want to compare them both as both got different approach and game style and purpose.

but lets try consider group fight in tpvp

power – hight short burst
condi – constant dps

power – can be evaded, blocked, blinded, immune when you shatter and use skills
condi – the same but also can be cleansed by using skills and utilities

power – shatter at the right moment
condi – shatter at will but look for the right moments

power – dont have free utility slot
condi – do have free utility slot

power – cant handle the cele meta
condi – can handle the cele meta

power – hardly make the enemy use skills by it attacks
condi – push the enemy to use cleanse and heal

so the basic questions are
1. do the group need condition class over power burst? yes or no
2. does his conditions proc often to handle the cleanses ? yes
3. can he handle 1v1 ? yes
4. can he support the group? can take portal, boon rip feedback, null field etc so yes

I don’t want to see this thread becoming locked with null arguments .

My pov
I play low mid pvp
I used to play power shatter , failed with lockdown build or didn’t give it a chance and turn to condi as I wanted to explore
Power shatter shines if not being targeted as his dps his huge and fast
But check the last ESL and you see helseth doing low dmg out put around 500 from aa and hardly do burst shatter as he was constantly targeted
Thus the play style is more like a thief kite and hide till your burst rdy which result in lower sustain dps

So don’t try to compare power to condi

Mtd shatter now can handle almost any 1v1 thus making good for close or far holder
Recently I started to try more outnumbered in far so my team may have advantage
Power shatter won’t
In group fight my dps is same or even higher then power shatter also it’s aoe

Down side it get cleansed so you have to know and time your shatter or you waste them
Up side is you make your enemies use skills and utilities earlier in the fight

Guildy friend who play power and lock down try mtd build and was amazed
We play both on far and manage 2v3 while doing 25 torment stacks ( what will happend after the new patch? I wonder ) but he still thinks power better in certain circmstances

So try it and make your mind

aggressive all the way even with condition build

BlackDevil.9268:

messiah.1908:

if you look closly the fights where TCG with shatter mesmer you could see he was down and targeted always even in 1v1 he lost while accomplished almost nothing beside 1-2 burst from far which did 4k aoe dmg and run away to decap. reminde me thief play stlye
i dont say its not viable rather could be accomplish with with any other classes too

again i dont even try to compare power to condi setup
but compare it to engi or necro (ranger out of the question)

then maybe we can start really compare and make good arguments

Haha okay man. It’s funny you can see all that while you don’t see the pov of someone, but you can’t see yourself failing horribly on your own spec.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Wait wait wait, so I’m actually loosing all those games I thought I won while not playing an IP shatter build?

Man, no arguing with Blackdevils definition of viability I guess -_-u

Double wait, that game I lost while playing an IP shatter build, I actually won that one simply because I was on THE meta IP shatter build. Phew that’s a relief

Well if you guys keep making such useless arguments then yes, there’s not much to argue about with me.
By your logic I can play without traits, win the game and mark it as a ‘’viable build’‘.
Why? Because it’s a team game. If my 5 enemies are just horrible like I see in any video that people post with other builds other than power shatter, then it’s not too hard for some decent brained people to win that 4v5. Now fill into that 4v5 a mesmer that runs between points capping stuff and doing the little damage on people cause he doesn’t get focussed and tada, you can win the game. This doesn’t say anything about your effectiveness though, but rather about the enemies you’re fighting and the players you play with.

Now here’s something funny: There’s much more evidence for power shatter to be viable and the meta for so long, while there’s little to no evidence for all these wannabe builds from people who claim they’re just as viable as power shatter. There’s no reason for you guys to argue. Come up with evidence, I might just believe you… or just facepalm like almost at every ‘’supposed to be good/meta build’’ video.

i really respect your opinions but you got it wrong now

if you claim if i dont see the pov how can you?
and your proof is just saying the power shatter is the meta just because ppl use it just because the elite players use it….
let me remind you that many years ago the earth considered flat and only 1 man said that its rounded . slowly more and more started to believe in it without any proof at all

the meta become the meta because ppl see the effectiveness in a certain build and game style and composition (see also the s/d thief – at start ppl said no dmg just troll build with perma evades….only after a year it became meta)

now till ppl dont start more and more to experiment this build just to proof it can work in the higher tier and with which scenarios or compositions we all cant say anything

i know i read some interview by skcamow and Supcutie (i think) which said that conditions wont work in the current cele /power meta but almost every heir tier fight i see a mesmer,his role is just like as the thieves with portal. while no class or build go conditions

i have started experiment with new setup build

4,4,0,0,6 with gs +staff carrion amulet
with boon removal 1800 power and boon on shatter and with gs the direct dmg can be nice (no crit dmg) but the condition still nice as with rabid

although i have to play more power shatter from range thus the shatter is slower the with rabid

till now i was nice in the courtyard where rabid mtd dont help at all.
in wvw also good almost the same as rabid
havent play much games yet on ranked

anyone tested it ?

if you look closly the fights where TCG with shatter mesmer you could see he was down and targeted always even in 1v1 he lost while accomplished almost nothing beside 1-2 burst from far which did 4k aoe dmg and run away to decap. reminde me thief play stlye
i dont say its not viable rather could be accomplish with with any other classes too

again i dont even try to compare power to condi setup
but compare it to engi or necro (ranger out of the question)

then maybe we can start really compare and make good arguments

if you go double range weapon go carrion which will boost your condi dmg nicely
if you go scepter go dire or rabid

BlackDevil.9268:

Before the moa you did max 6k damage in a period of +/- 30 seconds. That’s like what, 200 dps? A ranger pet does about the same.
There was no 2nd ranger. It’s just the same ranger spamming his attacks just like you do, but being 10x more effective.

Theres a reason the ranger died to condies and that is because he got bursted before he popped his immunity. In any case, waiting 5 seconds till you can kill him or waiting 5 seconds till he dies to condies doesn’t make any difference. Not to mention that he had 12 stacks bleeding on him, whereas only 3-4 of those were from you. At least 1/2 of the other condi pressure came from someone else, which doesn’t impress me at all seeing you’re the one who should deal the majority of the condi pressure as condi spec.

Sorry you misinterpreted my point. This thread became more like a ‘’power-condi shatter comparison’‘, whereas I compare the builds effectiveness and see what’s better. This does not include skills and actions that is able to accomplish on both builds, since that would not be relevant.
Stomping and dazing resses belongs to this aspect, because it’s possible on both fronts. However, if we would compare it power shatter would be better at it by far due on demand dazes and on demand and longer immunity.

The confu procs from the thief at 2:35 just shows how bad your opponents are, rather than how good condi shatter works. Anyone with half a brain would’ve stopped attacking there or just clusterbombed once to kill the clone.
3v1ing an engi is not something I would consider being useful. But lol, probably the most damage you did to a single target that game was to that engi by dealing like 10-12k before he died. Kinda compareable to 1 full shatter burst on power shatter though…

The engi is also bad since he insta popped his block while you were only spamming 1 staff. I don’t see any reason for the engi to do such dumb thing instead of spamming nades from far away. The engi couldve baited your dodges or deal already 3-4k damage in that time he wasted his block.

Now this is actually funny cause you can clearly see how little you can do with mtd once someone is ressing. This engi at 40% hp just resses this mesmer without any problem against you + the engi.
Once he got the useless signet mesmer up he dies to 4-5k damage from the engi jump shot + 2k condi damage from you.

The ’’1v2’’ at far was against a tank guard, which seriously dealt no damage to you at all and a ranger that bumped in for max 10 seconds to eat 10k hp from you which forced you to run away. As a power mesmer I would give up on the node, sit behind a rock, go in stealth and burst the ranger. Hell you would benifit so much more from that rather than nearly dieing to a ranger facerolling his keyboard.

What I personally find very sad is where you pop your feedback just before the ranger comes into the fight for no reason at all. If you run feedback, at least use it well and don’t spam it randomly.

i like your inputs

but …
there was third ranger who came at the end and burst it down. my ally ranger was with gs and accomplished nothing also with his pet as the ele was faster. but why we talking about this fight as i mention troll fight as we insure the win

the ranger had 17 bleed stacks while i did 1k-1.3k bleed dps 600-700 burning and 377 confusion and 150 torment thus 2.1k dps till he died. the warrior did the first bleed stack with bow as well

i never tried to compare between power and condi. only condi v condi and condi alone in group composition

the thief maybe though that with engi they can kill the ele fast that why both use skills

the engi and thief was 2v1 the ele. then i came and burst the engi who run to far point while ele down the thief, then come our warrior so not 3v1

the engi at close was readt for power shatter thats why he block as he saw clone up running for him.

at ressing you defently right. i might daze but f3 wasnt rdy with clone up so power ip shatter could do it better or even burst the down better as i tried but condi tick

the 1v2 – power shatter never would be able to kill fast bunker guard as make him use all his utilities even in 1v1. and even in 1v2 as you said you would give up the point and burst the ranger. i might too but i saw my team coming so why to run early i can dish bit more dmg.

the last fight with feedback isaw the ranger start pew pew and stop and back off so i gain few seconds without him pew pew and spread chaos storm for bigger aoe field. at least what i wanted to achieve

which condi class whould you think does it better

i was prepered for that response and thans for you effort
ppl ask me to put full fights and not some cutscenes

the ele got all his dmg from me . the ranger didnt hit him when i moa him as he evade all his attackes. the seconds ranger who came killed him but i did around 5k dmg which got healed fast with dd
the ele troll because we already won so just running around accomplish nothing off the point for him. so dont count this fight

if killing the ranger when he is immune to direct dmg is carried and stomping and ressing and intrupt the stomp is carried sry to say you just worng.
making the engi use all his abilities thus making him vulnerable. puting 1-2k confusion
making the thief go SR and pushing the engi to run for easy kill for the dd ele . killing the ranger fast making his team lose few seconds on 1v3 just after they got killed fast as both enemy were low on hp…ranger 15% thief below 50%.

both fights i think our group rotation and response were good even when i 1v2 in far my team came to finish after the guard use all his utilities and virtues.

yes the first 2 skills total waste – i was trying somthing and didnt make it.

and regarding my rank – cant say i play the hier tier as you ppl but few fights i fought as my other guild member mention against one of the top 3 team in esl – yes we lost so badly . i am not looking to be high ranked. as i dont have a group and i dont play daily

i whish some other high rank ppl could try it and video it

here is the video from last night with 2 full tpvp pug fights

i also play 4,4,0,0,6 build when see 2 boons classes or /and my team want fast vulnerability stacks

i wouldnt take PD as i like to shatter and dont want to care about my illusions

mtd gives you 4 points to play with where power shatter dont.

i will upload soon video from 2 fights i had tonight with pugs so no ts.
was fun so i try to make it fun video for all the haters

witcher.3197:

messiah.1908:

as i havent played shtter mesmer more than 6 months can someone tell me if the power build can handle those meta build and compositions

med gaurd – block block block stability…while kill your clonse with cleaves and aoe
shout warrior – heal fast immune to immobilize
turret engi, rifle engi – great aoe control on point kill clones fast and good heal
d/p thief – stealth
dd ele – good sustain
lb ranger – good range if position right
bunker guard – hard to kill block block block heal
bunker staff ele – hard to kill
power necro – if supported by his team can do massive dmg
condi necro – can pressure if can catch you

so what can power mesmer do against them – all the video i saw from the esl was pew pew with gs and some 2 shatter combos the whole fight while being targeted and pressure to play defense thus doing nothing to his team beside portal eascape or decap points like thieves do

all the builds above are counters by conditions pressure (beside shout warrior)

Last time I checked conquest was 5v5 not 1v1 and that’s something you fail to understand pretty hard. Shatter mesmer (power) brings more to the team. While it’s easier for a lower skilled player to be effective against the specs you mention with a condi shatter, a good power shatter mes can deal with them as well (except for the thief part) – sometimes the matchup’s even better for power shatter, especially against shoutbow and staff ele.

i do understand that why i wrote “handle those meta build and compositions”

what i could see from those esl fights that the mesmer hardly do significant dmg in group fights and in 1v1 he run away to look for 2v1 or 4v3 which is what is needed to do

when i fight i manage to see i can pull out nice AOE condition dmg
i see the heals come out and the utilities used from 2-3 enemies
while as power shatter they block it evade it or just heal but hardly use utilities
sure if there are shout warrior and bunker guard it will be hard to manage to do anything even with power shatter

i dont know guys maybe its me but conditions works better for my mesmer

as i havent played shtter mesmer more than 6 months can someone tell me if the power build can handle those meta build and compositions

med gaurd – block block block stability…while kill your clonse with cleaves and aoe
shout warrior – heal fast immune to immobilize
turret engi, rifle engi – great aoe control on point kill clones fast and good heal
d/p thief – stealth
dd ele – good sustain
lb ranger – good range if position right
bunker guard – hard to kill block block block heal
bunker staff ele – hard to kill
power necro – if supported by his team can do massive dmg
condi necro – can pressure if can catch you

so what can power mesmer do against them – all the video i saw from the esl was pew pew with gs and some 2 shatter combos the whole fight while being targeted and pressure to play defense thus doing nothing to his team beside portal eascape or decap points like thieves do

all the builds above are counters by conditions pressure (beside shout warrior)

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

i am far behind on the leaderboards. play only 2 hours a day max

Wile.5024:

You make good points, would have been great if your first post was like this : D

Yeah with some needed buffs I could see this build replace an engi…

:D i still thinks this build is good counter the the cele meta or at least push them to play defense

i dont want to start shifting the discussion on tpvp compositions, strategies and tactics.
but the fact is you hardly see mesmer in higher tier of tpvp. basically because other classes and builds do it better.
i never said mtd does better job then the power shatter as both got different role and play style.

i play mtd from the begging even before the buff it and shifted to it as i struggled as power shatter in tpvp – maybe its me or my experience thus i looked for an alternative

pu was out of the qeastion, phantasm also. double range was fine but again i notice low average dps and when i role a thief i could do it better.

i tried to think what in the meta is missing . the answer is conditions. zerk class hardly take it anymore. thief maybe 1 trait, mesmer hardly, engi got 2 maybe etc.
i notice condi necro cant put good huge aoe condi bombs and the engi does it far better, ranger is 1v1 mostly. thus i wanted to take my mtd to the tpvp.

it overwhelmed me . starting by saying i am pu cheease build to the "how the hell you manage to put 15 torment on me and confusion " OP
even when i loose i get whispers of good game. and sometimes noob mesmer.

i never said mtd is far better than power shatter. but yes i notice i have easy time capping and holding 1v1 on point . even though i wont look for it but enough time to get help for easy 2v1 kill. you want see a thief trying against turret engi on point or even shatter mesmer as they got different role (to look for easy 2v1)

i usually look of aoe field to proc the block and torment and clone for fast shatter.
i have better chance to push the ele and guardian on defense mode and to disengage others off point not like shatter mesmer who will fight from range off point thus losing time for his group else where.

i tested MTD build with 3 good players on every class and meta build
and also tested it in 2v2 scenarios on mid

results for my pov:
easy to handle – ele, bunker guard, warrior, power ranger (tricky) – 80% win
medium – medguard, engi, sd thief, necro, condi ranger – 50% win
hard – dp thief, engi power shatter – 30% win

easy doesnt mean fast kill

in 2v2 i had better results whether i played with bunker ally or dmg ally
in tpvp – hard time if the team got good cleanse composition like guardian ele and shot warrior. so i re-role of take close point holder and not group mid.
if i am with bunker guard on point 2v2 or 2v3 i hug him and shatter always while he is keeping me alive which result in both enemy below 50% hp and then easy 3v2 win
or even 2v2 win as they both use all their cleanse skill, heal etc.

i dont say i can win always and yes d/p thief is kitten counter for me at least

i usualy get the block proc and the lazer – just learned when and how to use it

what i have notice is that ppl start shatter from the begging and scream they cleanse all my conditions . i usually bait the cleanse and dodges then shatter freely when they below 50% hp. 3 staff clones do nice work if you place them far from each other

so for now what i can think of replacing this build in tpvp is engi but do you want 2 engi in your team? or maybe 1 boon removal , moa, portal with you, aoe cleanse etc.

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well! – hard fight indead

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back. and flip them back again or cleanse and start over

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite. dont stay in range versus ranger

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

pls stand for 5 sec letting my 3 staff clones hit you for 10 bleed burning poison
2k dps for 5 sec is 10k dmg then if you cleanse shatter on you for 6-9 confusion again and torment all over again

mtd while can do 1v1, in tpvp i think its made more for group play 2v2 3v3 etc
the staff clones can spread conditions and boons vigor and might

Wile.5024:

Just the same bad stuff as in the previous vids + 2x 1v1’s without moa….

First a zero dmg bunker guard autoattacking with staff who did not even try to dodge and just facetanks everything. Then a ranger who helpfully uses up double dodge and stone signet before even activating combat, then you do a random torch 4 which conviniently happens to blind his entangle and he proceeds to eat the whole shatter and just die…. made me laugh at least : D

i really dont know what you trying to prove
you want me to fight the elite players and die no matter what build i use
i guess you will too so thus it make your build less effective and theirs better

if i play against good player and fought for 2 min . its a situation you really dont want to be in tpvp as you hardly helpful to your team no matter what build you use

mtd variant is solid build and with the right group composition can be effective as the power shatter.

maybe in higher tier not yet because the meta evolve around power atm
but when you can stack above 25 then we will see players working together

here some bad games i had yesterday . bad i mean cause we lost some due to bad rotations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k-iiOiFLzc&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z13jipobytn4wp5bh04cdlmwulz1i5451zk0k
1v1 engi on far while moa him but not at the right moment so i almost got killed but my clones killed him while after stayed in 1v2 engi +necro so i knew i can stand on point so troll them and make them use heal, utilities and cleanse while i knew my team coming to 3v3 fast kill
you can see how engi warrior thief most of the times moving around the point while i can stand on it and contest it
2v2 on far versus mesmer and shout warrior who run to mid
right after dd ele short 1v1 till engi come for 2v1 – yes ele cleanse condi but in the mean time use all his rotations utilities to cleanse leaving him with nothing so he should have bailed out
then 2v1 versus shout warrior again doing nice 14k dmg (yes 2v1 but still example of the huge condi dmg)
then 2v2 versus 2 shout warrior (good cleanse) see how my warrior ally hardly doing any dmg to them versus mine
then example what i want to get with thief – using SR early in the fight
at the end of the vid some nice 1v1 bunkering guard on point being killed in 10 sec
last fight 1v1 versus ranger then mesmer came and got him down too – but forget to use stealth to stomp so third player came with no utilities i back off

Wile.5024:

messiah.1908:

@Wile.5024
what is challenging as power shatter ? fast burst and go out
i look for to be effective to my group
1v1 i did and prove the build is good with several tester of several guilds
its not op build (thieves eat you)
this build can handle the cele meta better the power shatter

- i didnt say condi is better then power. but condi can do burst after burst with 3 shatter while power mesmer will blink away w8ing for recharge

I assume the build has most of the same challenges as power… the play style looks generally the same though would argue power needs to do more melee range combat (to make use of mirror blade and shatter on self). “Burst and blink away to wait for recharge” is not how I play power at least, you need to keep the pressure on…

Saying this build is better against celes than power… I did not see any proof on the vids, the build doesn’t have boonstrip, eles cleanse tons of conditions.

The videos were all about you being in ideal situations, you could make a montage like this with any build… a LB power ranger for example: run to an ongoing team fight, boon up, press 2 => fast kill, cut to the next fight.

While I do get these are the types of fights you want to get into, I would have wanted to see situations where things are not ideal for you which happens all the time especially if not running a full, well thought-out party. Sometimes the team is fighting 3v1 somewhere in the middle of the map, sometimes they just purely suck, sometimes you have only squishys…. 1v1 a thief or a cele, arriving to a losing team fight, team fight where the enemy actually targets the mesmer, getting outnumbered.. these sort of things. What would be more convincing that this is a great build than showing it can work against odds too?

messiah.1908:

pros:
more armor then zerk one
make the enemy team to use utilities, cleanse, heal early in the fight
more team player and can hold/fight on points better then zerk
great against the cele meta

I did forget to mention more armor as a bonus.

Would argue power causes enemies to heal slightly more quickly since the dmg is instant where conditions need time to work, also gs gives extra range. Faster need to cleanse obviously goes to the condition build.

I’m sceptical about holding the point too, you have 2 invis and no knockback, no melee weapon… sure the armor helps a bit but still.

Still not convinced this build is great, I’d be happy to watch a less one-sided video :p

be sure i dont win any fight and sometimes i take bad choises like staying far after 3 enemy down on mid → they will spwn to me . so you want to see me die in 1v3 . no class can or should handle 1v3 if not full bunker.

yes thief can kill me 50% of the time if he’s above average player. but in group play i have more freedom to handle him
with 5 confusion thief usually goes SR – result i want as he wont attack for few seconds
sure gs can push him back . but why handle 1v1 if i can handle 2v1 for few seconds for fast down.

it seems you want me to be in hard spot just to prove something
put a shatter mesmer or thief in 1v2 will he stay and fight ot disengage?
will shatter mesmer fight turret engi on far? – no it waste of time for him. while i can but result maybe in waste of time also. unless he is on 50% hp after using heal

you missing the point on how holding a point – my clones can do on 1v1 10-15 bleed stack , weakness, burning which push my enemy to play defense and miss some attacks with weakness. if i shatter also punish him more moving and using skills

smart d/d ele who fights me on point wont be able to still it if i am on it while he will lose time for his team so usualy they are leaving . as most of the time he will be on water for the cleanse and less on fire for the dmg

my vids are not made purly for the public rather for me to learn from my mistakes. i wont cap video for 1 month and edit it . usualy the video are from yesterday fights

Mirb.3749:

I’ve been playing your MtD build tons in sPvP ever since I got back into GW2 a week or so ago and it’s been working out fantastic for me. I was a traditional/double ranged shatter guy before but once I tried MtD I can never go back. I currently run 2/4/2/0/6 taking crippling dissipation in Dom which seems to work out best for me.

I’m sitting in the top 100 on the NA ladder, pretty good I think for someone who only played GW2 for a couple months at launch and only came back within the last two weeks.

Probably a testament to how effective the build is, great work m8

Also question, is the build effective for WvW roaming at all? Or is PU a better way to go you think.

top 100 gz. maybe i just dont have the time …
but yes mtd can work with any varitation you need and want. cripple is also good if you got thief in your party so he can easy catch his target or with engi or guardian with aoe more ticks on the enemy

the build is effective in wvw also but in romaing or small group mainly
take traveler runes if you miss the 25% speed as it works too.
pu is slowest build but more tankier so if you miss the hp take dire armor with mtd

i think you will see that mtd kills to fast in wvw as most player are below average as they more zerg oriented

@Wile.5024
what is challenging as power shatter ? fast burst and go out
i look for to be effective to my group
1v1 i did and prove the build is good with several tester of several guilds
its not op build (thieves eat you)
this build can handle the cele meta better the power shatter
etc…
1) outnumber situation – same as power shatter tactic or thief to look for 2v1
2)being supported – same as almost any other class who is not roamer (thief/power mesmer)
3) moa – cry to anet but power mesmer use it too to disable key target
4) Enemy did not target you – gg me i think
5) Lack of thieves? – you right here
6) Lack of classes with heavy condi cleanse? – not so true but if so i will adapt accordingly . most team go power thus not focusing in cleanse in the meta.

- i didnt say condi is better then power. but condi can do burst after burst with 3 shatter while power mesmer will blink away w8ing for recharge

pros:

+ Heavy AoE torment and confusion in team fights
+ Team utility potential
fast proc of aoe most powerful conditions
free utility slot
more armor then zerk one
make the enemy team to use utilities, cleanse, heal early in the fight
more team player and can hold/fight on points better then zerk
great against the cele meta
Cons:

- Lack of boon removal on shatter – not my job but you can play 4,4,0,0,6 if you like as condi also
- Lack of shatter on self which gives so much flexibility – dont need it
- Long cooldowns on torch- i need clones and condi dmg which torch is the best of it while being defensive weapon
- You die of old age while waiting for scepter animations – get used to it and hardly use it
- Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking – if they smart they stand and dont use skills so win win . my team will just easy kill them

i stopped playing wvw as it become too zergy
you can play the same build or something like this one
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpMtFpxTNcrRitBZqLcqag6hckVWyAMMA-TVyCABAcQAuU9nl3fYiLAQiKBzS5HFPAA90NIxRAgUAwsGA-w
for roaming mainly and small groups
with zerg you can target only the periphery

start condi as you will learn the basic fight and mechanism
but go power but to be good at it you must invest time as it skill cap is much higher

Saturn.6591:

Sometimes it’s really nice to see the reactions some people show. I’ve once had a turret engi flaming me for playing a noob-PU build and that I’m too noob to play anything else than meta and I’m stupid and an idiot and whatnot… that after I killed him. A turret engi. With a condi mesmer. XD

Or yesterday I’ve killed that pewpew ranger, and the conversation was like

-“pu?”
-“no”
-“what then?”
-“MtD-shatter”
-“sick”
-“=)”

I love playing this build. I’ve played double ranged shatter too for a bit, but I find that I can do so much more with MtD and I also contribute much more to the team.

so so true . this is what i try to bring to the mesmer community that the mtd can contribute more that meta shatter mesmer givven your team knows how to handle with it

with power shatter i used to play long time ago and notice my average dps was low. my most contribution was to engage in 2v1 fast put portal and back to 3v3 in mid etc…
but i hardly cap points – thief does it better
hardly did stomp with all the aoe/cleave around others do it better
and if i got focused i had to disengage fast (lowering my dps)

Fay.2357:

What you say here is extraordinarily disingenuous. Lets go through it, shall we?

Yes, you can do 5-15 confusion stacks —for 4 seconds. That makes it useless.

Mesmer confusion application is awful in every sense of the word.

yes its true against well played with condi cleanse it will be hard to pull out 15 condusion stacks. usualy i put 5-10 stacks but longer then 4 sec. pvp around 6-8 sec and wvw longer with food

but the same goes for engi – pullbar is easy to dodge thus the confusion wont hit. the bomb also easy to avoid. against condi i usualy see burning poison on me and 3 bleed and maybe 3-5 stacks of confusion for 5 sec (the whle fight)

with mesmer its more spammable at least for me with f1-3 you can prolong the duration also when it get cleanse you can put it up easy again

again for me

MailMail.6534:

Rome.7124:

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Exactly. These builds allow you to take a lot of boon rip, which is the bane to a lot of the popular meta builds. And the constant sustained condition pressure overrides their defense against burst dmg mitigation.

Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either so that’s why you have a team to help you with him. Thief is always difficult, but if you can get one good Cry of Frustration burst off without them clearing it (always save this for your last shatter against thieves), that usually scares them into defense immediately.

in pvp its all about tactic. if i see bunker i will fight it 1v1 on point and mostly win
if i see cele warrior on point i will probably go help in 3v2 or 4v3 on mid so my team has the advantage even though i can kill the warrior but it will take longer.

with thief i have 50% win as in team fight they usually surprise me from no where and has the advantage. but if i manage to shatter on him he will SR and this is what mostly counter me. as he can immobilze me, BS while getting hp. most of the time i can get them to 5-10% hp so they doing kamikaza on me all or nothing. thus i wont try 1v1 unless i know a team mate is near to help when needed. but what is nice that if i am on point the thief has hard time to cap it so he losing time while fighting me.

if you check higher tier in tpvp you wont see many condi build at all and that’s why i think at least 1 condi build is needed to pressure the enemy to use utilities and heal skill earlier in the fight.
yes power shatter may do nice 4k dmg from range but he wont stay on point or near it thus can be easy target to be pushed while the enemy can block’dodge evades most of his dmg. while i can do the same and even better but longer and condi which land will tick regardless and also make the enemy guaridan/ele/engi to use aoe heal blast cleanse and rip boons if traited right.
so i look at this build as softener the enemy and make it scared
i had a fight which we lost in the end but 3 enemies gg the mesmer for 4k torment tick

some fights i try to even handle 1v2 and it seems with good group cordinating i manage to usualy put both enemies in less 30% hp so when helps comes it fast down for them even if i went down

i think you bit worng
engi can stack maybe 10 stack of confusion without perplexity and 20 with it . so yes it might be huge burst of confusion stacks but easy to avoid and cleanse and also got 15 sec cd

while mesmer has the most way to put confusion :
when blind
when killed clone
when shatter (1-4)
when exit or enter glamour field
when use phantasm
when use skill#3 scepter
and all with low cd

as mtd i usually can do 5-15 confusion stacks and with 5 stacks i can do 1k dmg

and i can put 15-20 stacks of torment if i am lucky so to buff it more is not advisable as it scream for nerf

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s been a long time since I’ve played condi shatter mes with any kind of dedication, but watching your vid reminds me how much I LOVE mes condi spike (via shatter). Other classes feel like condi spam (engie, prime example), where’as Mesmer is still tied to timing and propper use and application of skills.

exactly how i feel. every condi class is all about spamming your condi skills over and over again with low degree of timing and knowing or predicting your enemy acts.
i have play all other condi class and the thief may be close to that (in wvw and not pvp)
the condi mesmer cant spam skills (pu maybe but easy to avoid) .

when ppl asked me for help how i fight versus other classes they saw that sometimes i fight as pu and sometimes as phantasm and sometimes kittenter
sometimes on point and sometime like power shatter from afar

(i also play condi guard and hybrid guard in tpvp – yes i love condi builds!)

Dondagora.9645:

I love that 8:30 or so ranger kill. You put confusion on him, and he literally killed himself, which is what you like to see when running MtD builds.

As for thieves, they’re easy enough to predict. They stealth, they wait a moment or two or three, then they strike. Sit in your chaos storm in these moments or use scepter block to avoid it and just shatter and Confusing Images them when they’re revealed. Condi pressure will usually kill them quickly if they try to fight back or run away once you get them good once or twice. It’s the smart ones that sometimes stay in stealth for long periods of times and just wait you out that can be the problem. I usually keep my stealth[Torch and Decoy] on hand once my defenses run out to quickly counter-burst them when they do finally surface.

my problem with thieves is the SR skill. d/p is basically counter to this build as his PB blind your shatter and he can spam blind on you (#3). so if they play patiently until i use all my skill and then SR they got the upper hand. if they just spam skills i will win. if they PB+HS+AA rotation its hard. also its hard to break the fight against them. in group play its more easier as its hard for them to target you in all the commotion

that’s why i try to find better tactic and fight with group when i see thief rather fighting alone on far or close

THANKS

i love to try things that are less common
i cant say this build is good with every group composition
but its great against the cele meta, bunkering, 1v1 far or close,

bad for me its bad if i see thief in the other group as i know i will be targeted (but same as the power shatter) and thief good d/p is hard counter for this build (for me at least)

happy to answer any question you have regarind this build in wvw and tpvp

some more action in the arena with pugs and friends
try to engage more in group play rather solo far or close
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZbiOYqeA0s&feature=youtu.be

for more mtd fights and short tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAsQEXbi15k&list=PLiT59SEZLaifPQmI9HNXyFepPEL39q-yV

p/s
finally i manage to convince that the build in metabattle site is at least consider as good but i think it deserve “great”
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Condi_Shatter

i play mainly mtd condi shatter and put videos of it up both us and eu