Guild Wars 2

i played few rounds against orgenized guilds with staff ele and /or dd ele, hammer med guard, rifle engi, thief, power necro/ another engi

my team were 2 friends bunker guard, dd ele on ts and 2 other with no ts ranger and thief.

although it wasnt hard to land the shatter on the necro / engi thier ele was cleanse them so i turn on the ele to pressure him and boom his group just got destroyed if i manage to shatter him with 10 confusion and torment
the score was tight and the rotations called the outcome
on far or close we try 2-3 split while doing nice job
but when i was the target by a thief and hammer guard with the immobilize from both panic strike thief and guard i was preety much fast down.
i notice that they dont like to stand around me with all the shatter and chaos storm
and if we gave the ele free time the fight went harder

from 5 fights we won 3 and the last 2 loses from bad rotation response.
i asked my team what they felt about my play and build
they say that the notice the pressure on the guard and ele was good although in the first 5 -10 sec it was harder after the use all their cleanse and utilities it became easier.

they dont know if we had manage to do better if we had power shatter beside the portal
our ranger chat and say that the guardian hardly has a block on him probably from early use on his heal/skills utilities so he manage to do great dmg and pressure, same as our thief on the necro
the engi was a problem with the KD so i tried to fight next to my gardian with stability.

regarding dmg i did see some nice numbers but for 2-5 sec as they got cleanse but after 10-15 sec the tick went longer probably due to no cleanse available.

i played it once dd carrion #3 spammer and it word great killing in few seconds the npc

and yes the revenant really creep me as they will push the condi mesmer out to oblivion

StickerHappy.8052:

And for you sir, Try dueling better players, Players you usually faceroll in solo q are nothing compared to good players.

When you duel/face someone really skilled, you will know the difference.

i go for ranked and unranked fight mainly with pugs or 1-4 guildies. what ever the game trough at me i fight him. all my video were ranked and not hot join. when we lose it mostly cause of bad rotation or bad communication with the pugs

so basically no condi class can be in the meta comp in higher tier

Supcutie.2538:

@messiah
Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

There are three problems with mtd that basically make it not work (at higher levels):
1. It relies heavily on clones shattering – This is bad because If you are in a place of good positioning, your clones will never get to your target. They’ll have to walk around the backside of keep and despawn, or they’ll walk all the way around clocktower and despawn. In addition, clones will shatter on the nearest enemy. So this makes landing damage on the intended target far less reliable than power shatter with greatsword.
2. It is literally hard countered by generosity sigil. People don’t run it now but I guarantee you if mtd became meta and there were Mesmers on more teams, tons of people would run it, and it severely hinders the spec.
3. Because your damage is less reliable in a team fight, you might be saying “oh I should be the 1v1er or in smaller engagements.” This is also not good because you don’t survive in a 1v2 better than war, ele, or engi, so you become a liability that can be avoided/minimized by playing another spec in another role.
Besides, if you are good enough you can win almost every 1v1 except vs. Thieves and some DPS Guards as power shatter anyway, so if you are forced into that situation you might as well just be power shatter so you can help your team elsewhere more effectively.

Also I wanted to add that I tested mtd pretty extensively and I do have to say that its burst is arguably more than power shatter in the 2-5 second range, if you can get it all off on one person. Shatter obviously does more instantly but when you fully stack torment, confusion and the other condis, people melt insanely fast in the following seconds. (I’m talking like if you can get the 20+ torment up)

THANKS!
regarding positioning – i will try to positioning myself in a spot where my clone will get shattered. also while in safe spot i create clones with scepter at target location while lets say i regen myself. although its bit slow. so i dont play like power shatter who needs a safe spot to do his #4+#2+#1 rather on point or around it. but your point is correct while in safe spot my dmg is about only AA form staff bouncing which can be annoying burning and bleeding mainly.
regarding shatter the nearest enemy – yes big problem when your team wants the burst someone all together. i see my role as harassing the cele meta like ele engi and back liner like ranger and necro. if my team need burst i have to reposition myself for successful burst. thus also i look for bunch of enemies to shatter around them like in downstate or supporting each other thus even when clones die the do some dmg with bleeding weakness etc.
generosity – kitten kitten kitten . really need to check this out thus i need to lure the sigil also to proc on low condi stacks. or even take it myself to transfer it back
if i am on 1v1 and it become 1v2 beside ele and warrior should my team try to support me. as in almost any 1v2 situation its a sure kill unless you run off point.

good points to consider.

but if all is good why this build can handle the lower tiers? is it just because ppl are bad players ?

skcamow.3527:

Since this thread has turned into another MtD vs Power Shatter comparison and Supcutie was mentioned, here are a couple quotes he made about MtD a couple months ago in a different thread.

Note the tier of game play is a big consideration and has been mentioned numerous times of late in recent threads.

Supcutie.2538:

About condi shatter and team fights – because of the celestial high sustain meta right now, there is enough condi cleanse in fights to make condi shatter simply not enough damage. If you are playing Mesmer, you need the burst in order to make progress. Otherwise you need to play another class that has a better sustain (damage mitigation/avoidance and healing per damage output basically) which will allow you more room for error and more opportunities to outplay your opponents.

Supcutie.2538:

taking that much time to get your damage off in higher end games will result in your team being dead. Not to mention, generosity sigil transfers torment first every time. Sure you have more survivability with the condi spec but the ratio of sustain to effective damage output is less than shatter, especially when you consider clone pathing from positioning that you need to have and clones being killed by aoe.

Chaos and I were just talking about how there are good builds and great builds. Condi may be a good build, but it’s not good enough for high end play. Of course, having fun builds for all level of play is important

TL;DR, MtD isn’t viable at the top tier level. MtD has nice potential to wreck in soloq. In teamq it can be played with varying success depending on how coordinated teams are at various MMR levels.

maybe there is something i cant get . maybe due to not being hightier player.
lets assume cele meta with dd ele and maybe two
dd ele can cleanse 1 condi when they attune to water and when they get regen with 3 cantrips. so with 1 burst or with 2-3 clones they will have 3-4 conditions which will make them to go water and maybe use 2 utilities at least. leaving them vulnerable for 10 sec or even more if they left without cleanse but staying at water and heal.
lets assume even bunker guard or med guard. 1 -2 shatter will make them use their utilities earlier in the fight while with power they will have to use only their heal skill or get heal /regen from others.

also generosity isnt so common

and lets compare ratio of dmg over time/sustain. condi do better dmg over time while burst can down ppl fast.
i will agree that condi engi may have better sustain with blocks and water heals but their dmg compare to mtd shatter is lower.

now taking time to pull off some dmg is right point. cant argue with that. but if you need 4 ppl to target 1 player to down him then you have 3 enemies targeting one of yours. while if 1 aoe class will pressure the healer /sustain class i assuming you might have better chances as now they have to focus on who need help first.

also sry that on each tournament fights i watched the mesmer was the first to be focused or down, thus making him unable to do his rotations beside portaling or decap points like the thief job.
that was oneof the reason i looked for some other build. as in teamq as power shatter i had lower chance to survive or do my thing. while with mtd the ele always get off points for 5-6 sec as they need heal. the guardian uses all his shouts so after 10 sec my team manage to down 1 players while i shatter around him for aoe for even more punishing the res which 50% of the time result in 1 more down.
sure this build take some time to do dmg but poison for 8 sec every 10 sec and burning and 3-6 bleed with confusion and torment and vulnerability and weakness if your clones die which negate dmg isnt something to count on?!

it mean the you are act like a clone regarding your shatter f1-f4 skills

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Quick question since someone brought it up, what’s the use of archers? They seem like a regular NPC to me, do they have special skills?

kill guards

witcher.3197:

This is the prime example that facts never changed the outcome of an arguement on this forum.

If messiah would get destroyed by every spec in the game including spirit weapon guard he’d still say MTD is great.

if the build i am using wasnt good i would have said so.
i love to test build , concept and gamestlye and the ones i think are good i post for the community to test and comment.

the fact is that i think MTD can shine but for now it is hard to proove it as not many ppl use it or video it beside me in tpvp.
if you check closely every meta build in tpvp is also meta build in wvw roaming (beside bunker guard) as both can handle 1v1 well and also contribute to the group in some manners.
i wish i could be in the higher tier to test it and if it would have failed i be the first to post it. (i still remember the s/d thief build before it was meta . so many ppl said its weak with no dmg pressure bla bla bla…. )

Coldtart.4785:

Rabid condi mes is much tankier than a power shatter mes but also has to rely on sustained damage because it has no spike. That sounds more comparable to the cele bruiser builds than to power shatter mes, while power shatter is more similar to thief. It doesn’t seem valid to compare condi shatter to power shatter directly because their roles are so different. Instead they should be compared to other builds that can perform a similar role, which would tend to show that power shatter is on the low end of viability and condi shatter just isn’t viable at all.

i agree with most of the above

condi shatter do has a spike dmg not burst (sort of) – with 1 shatter wich cause 6 torment and 3-6 confusion you can do for 2 sec of skill use and movement 4k dmg . with 2 shatter its 8-10 dmg for 2 sec. for 3 sec its 12k etc. while before you shatter few burning bleeding and posion and direct dmg . so even if it get cleanse eventualy for 3 sec it hit you. sure its hard to land but doable.

i dont try to compare between the builds rather the role. if you take a mesmer with you can you see him being a condi shatter mes with specific role which is differet from power shatter or you still must a power shatter with even if you got a thief and maybe lb ranger or med guard etc…

i like it very much

but the main problem as for now (maybe later it wont be) is you cant pug it as you must have some communication. are you on def, offense , sup runner etc…
with guild group it went great. with pugs hardly.

and yes many location and spot for LB ranger to defend from range, mesmer portal and intrupts the sup area, guard with boon, ele with aoe
so many new options to discover for what works best.

i still see the meta composition with warrior, guard, ele , engi and thief and wish that some more class and builds will find thier uses there.

phokus.8934:

alanis.6094:

phokus.8934:

alanis.6094:

phokus.8934:

When discussing build viability in pvp, it really only matters on top tier and tournament games because that is where people know where their dodge button is.

I think you believe that their are more people at the top tier/tournament games then they actually exist. Top tier is irrelevant for most.

No, I don’t. As I stated and what you left out as part of my response is that any build in bottom tier play is viable due to obvious reasons. When people start making claims that MtD is surpassing power shatter, that’s just blatantly false. MtD can have success as shown by the OP but even Phantasm builds and PU can have a lot of success against those same players.

Is your claim is that everyone that isn’t in the top tier/tournaments is therefore bottom tier (without any middle tier)? I don’t think anyone would disagree that when you play against kids that don’t know where the dodge button is located that any build can work; however, I (and I bet others) would argue that there is a huge amount of players that 1) aren’t tourney/top tier, and 2) still pretty good at this game. MTD is effective in this group.

Additionally on your other point… very few people are arguing that MTD is surpassing power shatter in tourney/top tier play.

My claim is based off of the players that the OP has played against and from the videos posted, I’ve yet to see any decent player. The OP plays MtD decently and it works for him so I’m glad that’s the case. There’s no question that the vast majority of players don’t participate in tournament play or in top tier… those are there for a reason and labeled as such. So I’m not sure why you would need to argue for this?

Sorry it’s not quite clear to me but on your second point are you saying that there’s a huge amount of players who are quite good?

i have met some decent players who are not in the top tier due the fact of time consuming.

but turning back the issue i havent read any claim why power shatter is better and why condi shatter is not good.

portal? so grab one as condi shatter. you can even trait it where power shatter cant.
boon removal – again condi shatter traits allocation is more freely so grab it
now the main issue – game style i would love to hear what you ppl thinking that deverst these two build concept (power and condi)

tested all class and builds

it seems that the meta comp will rule here too

i though maybe new tactics will brought up new things

thief – kill npc freely
warrior and guardian – defense or offense
ele and engi sustain and support

so again mesmer with portal for fast relocation mainly

what do you think

Again maybe my English is bad buy I refer to the meta battle site
It’s not my words
Dd ele and shout warrior can fight you forever which will lose time for your team
But again we not talking 1v1
In team fight I try to pressure with cleanse and heal skill used by my enemy early in the fight
And if I push ele off the point for heal I did my job as for 5 sec he was out if the fight and all over again even if I won’t get the kill I disable him for preetylong time
So far teams was able to see the benefit with me as long they knew my role and didn’t expect me to be power shatter

Why I do think also it’s counter to meta celebs build because as a team you manage to pressure smthe early skills used giving your burst player the advantage to down them fast
But alone it can be waste of time indeed

GoogleBrandon.5073:

messiah.1908:

if you keep reading closely you will see that every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure… MTD

I want to chime in and say that this is incredibly false within the current meta…

Right now, I played Necromancer as my top 3 played – and I always played this as the Condi variant… It falls apart damage wise, and the only real reason you want to take it is because of the CC’s and the Boon Corrupt , which when used at the right time is a dealbreaker

Let’s take Condi Engineer for instance… The pure variant is a Balthazar P/S Grenadier, quite squishy, but quite amazing with the condi damage output – yet outshined by the Celestial Rifle Engi…
Again, what is the big difference between the two? It’s quite easy actually, you have both more sustain as well a truckload of CC’s, which no meta build seems to be prepared for

The two most prominent Support builds within the meta are Shoutbow and D/D Ele – both have a plethora of support and party wide condi removal, and with little coordination, this can make “Heavy Condition pressure” obsolete

So no, it is not a counter to the meta… If you feel inclined to run it because you feel it is strong, go ahead, but don’t give false information, because it can be extremely disheartening once people find out the truth…
Heck, it is not even a counter to the previous meta with the Lyssa/Zerkstance Warriors and AH Guards being extremely prominent

This information is however given from the perspective of teamplay, and as someone who Solos on Shoutbow and D/D Ele as well – with just some minor understanding of your role and capabilities, you are more than capable of shutting down the complete offense of an enemy team

these are not my words. go in the metabattle site and read counters. you will see heavy counter from conditions builds.

i agree with you that with coordianted team it can be harder running conditions and i agree with you that condi necro dont bring enoughf condi pressure but nice cc . and agree with you that engi bring both cc and condi dmg and ok support with water field.

also dd ele hate this build even if they can cleanse as this build preety much interfere with thier rotations and support.
shoutbow is just wast of time to handle although its possible if you 1v1 him he wont support his team so again good result.

run it with mtd build 0,4,4,0,6 supply run and mid npc killer and supply killer
handle it good
npc die fast but we lost due the fact ppl just didnt do thier job and enjoy the map sites

run also power shatter 4,4,0,0,6 same result

although i am not sure what mesmer can bring to pug group with no communication

orgenize group sure with portal stealth or timewarp cc on supplies

as this map probably will become

1 npc killer
1-2 npc defender and roaming
1-2 supplies and roaming

knkasa.2608:

I can’t believe this thread is still going. I’m not going to argue what builds are better or not, but I could argue that there are no viable Mesmer builds in conquest modes including power shatter. The descriptions in metabattle.com says at the very bottom “countered by thieves”. What kind of build would be viable if it’s hard countered by a profession since any top teams would usually have a thief.

if you keep reading closely you will see that every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure… MTD

quote helseth quoting me “mtd is better”
have i ever claim its better here?

sry he cant read well as he just took it to his comfort zone and again try to compare them
as an elite player he immediately should have said that you cant compare power build with condi build as both have different role and dmg base

and again no other ppl here claim its better the power shatter. rather usable and effective in certain scenarios

so my conclusion is that he got offended by this (his moments) video. so first SRY and secondly he put me on his twich channel YEY (AS THERE IS NO BAD PUBLICITY)

choucs.4507:

http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/4025434

45:00
extremely informative.
check it out.

LOL unfortunately no information was given by him beside the fact he said he plays for money and try it all
i would really love to hear his true opinion why conditions wont or cant work for mesmer . and if he tried it what were his findings .

and sry that evey power shatter who post here cant read properly the subject

its dmg comparison not what build is more effective

if he was bit more friendly he would put out some testing as elite mesmer player to show us the community.

Kicast.1459

messiah.1908:

if we give more confusion stacks we might buff it too much with shatter skills thus we need to ensure that any build wont be too buffed.
so shatter ability shouldnt get buffed as power base wil get buffed too and they arelay in good place.

What ???
Shatter mesmer is the only viable spec in pvp …but it is far from being in a good place.
Elems / Thieves / Wars and engies are in a good place (and it seems since last WTS…medi guards also…but less used in tournaments)

i think power shatter is in good place consider the dmg burst. the sustain and /or support is bit lacking . but we still see 1 and even 2 mesmers in ESL weekly

ele and warrior will always be in good place and engi cause of the CC , guard cause of the boons and block. thieves cuase of the stealth abusing, and mesmer cause of the …. portal

thus to improve the dmg output is not the answer

MailMail.6534:

SlimChance.6593:

Just like our patron Lyssa, Mesmer’s love each other and sometimes not.

Never know which face of “Lyssa” will show itself around here.

Exactly true!

That was a fun video Messiah. You rekted a lot of folk.

thanks!
already converted 3 power shatter addict friends to an mtd shatter build and they love it (not because its better rather new, fun and effective to a lvl of degree)

may Lyssa forgive me ….

i dont think there is any hate among ourself. it just over and over mesmer got nerfed which left us with 1 build to play around

and after 400 years (days) when we starting to see the light with minor buff its hard to face it and absorve it as good thing.

the fact is that mesmer ppl came to be an expert with the power shatter build like in any evulotion process. so any change is not welcome and not needed.

now the power shatter build is great and work and hard to play it maybe the hardest among all classes.
the mtd other hand is more friendly but require more or the same awarness and moments to strike and bit more danger when fighting on point is needed along side knowing your enemy skills used , count dodges for the shatter etc…

i give you my points on confusion

at first it was good condition (before the torment) which was used in wvw mainly with higher burst dmg with glamour skills so the nerf came
since then unless you got about 8 stacks of confusion no one really care.

no 2 more class has the ability to stack confusion . engis and a bit warrior.
if we buff the dmg they will get buffed too and i think already now we dont want that

thus i think we need to buff the mesmer itself and not the condition.

if we give more confusion stacks we might buff it too much with shatter skills thus we need to ensure that any build wont be too buffed.

so shatter ability shouldnt get buffed as power base wil get buffed too and they arelay in good place.
hybrid , support and condition build need buff

thus make the scpeter proc more confusion with it skills like
AA first attack cause torment, seconds cause confusion (and not torment) or some combination. duration should be 4 sec so you can stack those like necro can about 5 stacks total with food buff

third scpeter attack like said above should be constant and not channled. maybe lower from 5 stacks to 4 stacks.

glamour field should create more confusion as it should punish enemies like the necro fields. so 3 in and 3 out for 5 sec or maybe random condition like torment, confusion, tuant, etc which control the enemy.

clones die should proc 2 stacks so pu get buff and hybrid or support, duration the same 3 sec is fine.

i wouldnt touch the staff as its fine as it is with power and condi build.

Ansau.7326:

Noob enemies. They don’t predict to cleanse two or three condi bursts in a row.

PD: That’s what I like the most of MtD. Putting +6 stacks of torment/confusion in a enemy, they cleanse it thinking “I can deal with this condi cheese”, and in a moment they have to deal with the same.

even if they do we got 3/4 shatter which every each does 6 torment 3-6 confusion alongside few AA from clones so F1 → cleanse→f2/3 → cleanse →f3/2 +f1 again they dead or if they dont just AA freely

LOL
you did great job!

let me comment

1. almost every mesmer wvw out there is 1v1 as if its 1v2 his enemies are noob. it was warrior with shouts which consider hard counter…. (if he used horn maybe harder)
2. not hot join rather ranked with pug
3. they dont dodge cause they dont think they need to or its too messy in group fight to dodge the right burst
4. yes thieves d/p rekt me over and over 50% of the time in 1v1
5. mesmer are pain in the kitten but i did say i got lucky
6. but the 1v2 shout warriors common i saw them dodge and cleanse

how did i do?
at least the music you like

another mtd in ranked 2 fights and the first clip with warrior wvw

enjoy!

jportell.2197:

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

what are you looking after in the vids?

i dont like to cap vids for a month for the best moments rather hop in ranked and cap what ever goes unless my team is bad

I think people are looking for game changing plays in the vids. Hard enough to do on mesmer as it is. Even harder on this build. Just sayin.

game changing ?!! like taking lord when we got 350 points versus 450 all by my self and power necro who came 10 sec after after i pinging the lord so all will come and no one comes beside the necro on 2v4 on lord while my torment get to 15 and burning and bleeding ?!

so far i showed 1v1 on point and group fight . you dont want to see those as ppl said they were bad players cause they die too fast…

Miku Lawrence.6329:

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

I like the music (might be the only one x.x ). Also, a thread comparing hotjoin with ELS is entertaining.

does hotjoin consider ranked matches?

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

what are you looking after in the vids?

i dont like to cap vids for a month for the best moments rather hop in ranked and cap what ever goes unless my team is bad

fun build to play but not effective in tpvp where you have at least dd ele or shout warrior or guard who can cleanse those 5 bleed very quickly

i change to d/d +s/d (i know SB can get you out to safe spot and have nice poison field)
d/d gives more bleed stacks even without caltrops and its evade also like the sb while keeping you on the target area and not push you back

i change to 2,0,0,6,6 (unicorn old build) for perma evade with ini regen.

in hot join it works

Elitist.8701:

Power shatters hit because of IP and sword immobilize. Also because of greatsword 2 from stealth. Condi mes has nothing to land shatters. Necro doesn’t have lower condi damage than mesmer. It’s not even close. And you’re saying to use the block when they use AoE but they can still dodge lol. In a teamfight you literally do NOTHING at all with this build. If there’s just one shout warrior then it basically becomes 4v5 because you can’t do any damage. This build isn’t good dude. Stop telling new players it is, they might actually believe you.

so what you are saying all condi builds out there are not useful?!
you really dont know how this build works reading your post
versus shout warrior /dd ele /bunker guard the main job of the mtd build is the harass them to use their shout/cleanse/heal early so your team will have better chance to kill them quickly . to do that i need only 1 shatter F1

sure if there is both of them in the team on mid its gonna be much harder thus i look for close or far
maybe in the upper lvl when the group support each other even against direct burst dmg it will be harder or even impossible but than 95% of this tpvp ppl arent in the upper lvl like you all.

regarding necro – yes he has good condi but his burst condi combo relay on 30 sec icd skills so meanwhile he just use staff aoe for 3 bleed and poison or targeting 1 person for 5 bleed stack maybe until his signet or corrupt boon is ready. thus ending in really easy cleanse unless he catch you with fear combo chain.

condi engi is a different story with swiftness, block, cc …. maybe better than the mtd build concept

now i try to run this build in the lower lvl with above 20 ranked ppl.
the main problem was they expected me to play like power shatter.

while i find new group we won as i manage to pressure the mid and guard close in-between

sry to say necro gg me as i moa him as soon he lich and burst him with 15 torment and confusion. then i got whispered for well played and been ask for the build

you dont have to like it or play it

but this build works

Elitist.8701:

Against good players you’ll almost never land an MtD shatter. Even if you do, necro can get the same amount of pressure by scepter autoattacking. Also you assume that people will eat the scepter block. That’s an awful assumption and I highly doubt you’re at the skill level where you can bait dodges. Not only that, but, I played MtD once in a match. Luckily I had some good players on my team to carry me because in a high MMR game where people know how to kite, MtD becomes 100% useless because you cant chase ANYTHING. A MEDI GUARD can outrun you.

if good player wont get hit by shatter it means also by power shatter

if you try the build and failed to hit the block than probably you dont know how to use it. look for aoe, burst skills etc.. easy to land especially versus guard.

also you make an assumption that mtd is not good while making an assumption other class and builds are just by playing one match.

and if you chase or even try you are playing it wrong
what necro got is second life pool and good cc with fear which compensate lower condi dmg compare to mtd shatter. try to do the math and you’ll see.

just tested mtd build with traveler and 2 battle sigils
had no problem to handle 1v3 and win 1v2

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpMttpxTNcrNitBZyLUCUPkjsySGghB-T1RHABF8QASb/B30Nwo6P3pEEgrAwRK/IFAMrBA-w

Daniel Handler.4816:

I think its important to note the benefit of corrupting a boon rather than ripping it. Corrupting actively punishes the celestial meta of boon stacking, while ripping just makes it harder for them to stack might.

and also important to note that its a 40 sec skill 1 foe while shatter is aoe every 10 sec and AT is every every 45, null every 40
and if you punish for maybe 2 sec they will have them back up no time

just thinking out loud

you can go pu with torment runes and heal mantra with 4,4,6,0,0 build
armor rabid or mix and torment sigil also
thus you can have around 3-4 torment stack with out the #2 block . just learn to use heal at the right moment when stealth

Nuclayer.6074:

The best thing about this build is that is so much fun to play. Thanks for sharing this build and videos. I am having a blast playing it.

that is true its really fun build to play. and to see those 15-20 torment stacks or ppl call you PU or rage at you when you moa them to death.

i am starting to see more mesmer in the arena with mtd builds . make me happy and bit uncomfortable (as atm i dont run any condi cleanse)

Terekhov.3670:

you forget the booncorrupt . stability will be changed to fear. thats not just flat dammage, its possible to interrupt stomps or just fokus a target down.
beside that a necro is standing at 1200-900 range and aoe all of the enemys.
the condi mesmer needs to get closer. staff is more mid-close range cause the projektiels are so slow and your clones will die if the need to run alot.
to trigger the torch you need to stand between the enemys and even with added thoughniss you will melt.
moreover the necro hardcounters cele engi and ele. condi trasnfer, boon remove, chill and hardcc > confusion dmg, torment, burn dmg.

yes necro got more cc as i have mention thus make them more valuable . but mesmer can trait for boon removable too. and can interupt res or stomp as well (not as the necro with fear, but with daze) thus i think overall the mesmer can be more valuable as he got mor dmg while if your team got guard with hammer or engi with rifle necro isnt really needed.

mesmer+thief always just dont try to go head to head versus zerg but take the back line

with mesmer no matter what build power or condi (but not pu)

you really dont need to prove yourself
i think all the players who contribute to the mesmer forum should considered good or even great

i once tried to be on the leader board but 2 days not playing drop me back to the start so i gave up and i met many players who are not in the leader board and would be considered good ones and i fought ones who were in it and i won

just wanted to know if there is any tutorial on this

where to used it in each map
when to use it

Elitist.8701:

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

there are lots of things mtd can do that necro cant

necro:
maninly bleed stacks with scepter an dagger skills which if not avoided ca be around 10 stacks.
poison mainly with staff for aoe but cd is every 16 sec
torment only 3 aoe stacks every 40 sec
fear chain every 20 sec
signet if used can cover the conditions
average dps with 10 bleed stacks and 3 torment and poison is
1000+500+240=1740 dps + fear 2 ticks is 2000 dmg.
so assuming 5 sec conditions ticks it will be 10700 total dmg.

is it repeatable ? only with AA scepter mainly and dagger

now mesmer:
with the same concept AA with scpeter proc torment up to 4-5 stacks which will do around 800 dps (also direct dmg higher then the necro scepter) compare to the necro scepter 6 bleed and poison 840 dps

scepter block proc 5 torment every 8 sec – 800 dps compare to scepter grasping hand 2 bleed and cripple aoe
torch blind and aoe burn compare to dagger blind and transfer condition – so more dmg for the mesmer
image proc confusion if his compare to dagger 2 bleed and weakness aoe

now mesmer shatter can proc in average fight 6 torment and 6 confusion (i can go higher around 10 torment and 10 confusion and with prefect shatter 15 torment and 10 confusion) thus doing 1000 dps and when using skill is another 1000 dmg per skill used. and its repeatable every 20 sec or lower
necro ds skills beside the fear are more cc with chill and immobilize and 3 torment thus leavig with fear as his burst dmg

mesmer have cover condition with burning bleed weakness vulnerability poison

so mesmer average dmg will be
burning 700
bleed 3-4 stacks 350
poison – 240
torment 6 stacks – 900
confusion – 1000 per skills used
total for 5 sec and 2 skills used is 13k and with good burst proc it can be 20k dmg

now necro have more cc that is true (and also engi) that is what makes them valuable

another fun scenes with mtd. few with another mtd friend who keep yelling me not to share the build as he ended up fighting one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh95Y8Lhl_w&feature=youtu.b

dps – dmg per second – which is more for burst dmg like power shatter
sdps – sustain dps – the average dmg over the period of your fight – this is more important value than dps.

so usually mesmer when roaming go with power shatter full zerk . while its hard to 1vx it can burst almost anyone in 2-5 seconds if timing it right. but the sdps is pretty low as you have to w8 for the right moment against above the average players
so the same sdps can be achieved with condition too…

so go full zerk 4,4,0,0,6 build

15-20 min of this video should be fast forward or deleted . nothing happened in it

this is why i left wvw – or you roam for 30 min finding nothing or a commander with zerg

i had fun moments this morning when me and friend both mtd fighting ranked
2 teams just whispered us how the hell we were so strong and too strong and what are builds were.
as i am polite i answered them . my friend told me not too "are you crazy you want them to use it against us "
the third fight we fought new mesmer with mtd …. LOL
engi at far rage at me that i moa him and kill him under 10 sec with all his turrets spread on point. wth they use turrets so i use moa…. the second encounter i didnt use moa and he died either way so he gg me out of respect.

i find it that attacking close or far than support mid is the best way to handle with this build unless its 1v2 on far or close then disengage if no help comes.
and the staff bounce also hit your allies so even if you from range it buff them a bit with might or fury

cbezzant.7154:

MailMail.6534:

I’ll be nice, productive and answer this question for you!

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

Staff Clone AAs will rack up a lot of dps, but it does need time build up. You can’t expect to be doing a lot of dmg over a quick period of time like power shatter. The key here is to make sure you have at least 2 clones up while keeping distance. Don’t summon pWarlock except when you know you’re going to shatter as he’ll take up a clone spot that could be used for more Staff AA. Also time it so that you get Chaos Armor from 4 as well as a combo with Chaos Storm, giving you 10-15s (depending on trait spread) of protection until you can gain another shatter.

If you need anymore advice, don’t hesitate to ask or even send me a whisper in-game.

Thanks! I was actually just thinking of shatter 2 and 3, but you made me realize that 1 and 4 will apply condi too. Brainfart

It’s not immediately obvious to me why scepter would be better confusion burst than staff – do you just mean I’m more likely to have more clones out due to the auto attack?

How do I choose when to auto attack staff + clones vs trying to shatter? I tend to play a lot of far point roaming in spvp so if I take too long to kill they may get backup.

being mtd shatter there is no right or wrong, you dont have same burst combi like power shatter

usually if i time my rotation right i can get 4 shatter with F1 rdy up after used.
f3 save for daze if needed usually below 50% hp or when you want to stop res or stomp
f2 you main burst so save it
f1 spam it
f4 save it when needed

staff clones do great dmg if you spread them out far from each other and the bounce is great for buffing and dmg would be 1k dps with burning proc and 2-3 bleed stacks .

scepter usually used for lure the dodge or cleanse with #3 and to buff you dmg with #2 and #5 confusion

if you used all you shatters and the enemy just used cleanse then you have to stay back with staff and spread out clones or go with scepter and try to block to proc the torment

so depends the situation i choose if to soften with staff clones or just go shatter combo the enemy

example when i fight on far
engi usually – i try to spread out clones until he is 80% about 2-3 sec then shatter and swap to scepter and try to block on his mines or his attacks then dodge and another shatter with f3 or f2 then use #5 for confusion and #3 for more confusion and shatter again and swap to staff again dodge and #2 +#3 for 3 clones up again and shatter with f1
thus even if he cleansed some he will get up again 5-10 torment and 5-10 confusion

d/d ele – longer fight but doable but get rdy for enemy support. abuse scepter #2 block with all they AA and aoe skills

guardian – dmg or bunker easy again try to lend your #2 block and shatter at will in-between their cleanse skills , AT is good here to steal boons and get 15-20 might stacks

warrior – much harder with immunity so more staff clones time without shattering and after 10 sec shatter twice and w8 for cleanse or another immunity so more staff clones time and then shatter with f3 or f2 and f1

ranger – shatter f1 to bait the cleanse, then staff clones or scepter clones for more soften then shatter at will

necro – more staff clones as his dmg is huge to make him hard time to target you so abuse stealth with torch while you shatter and stay at range and time your block when he is on DS

mesmer – hard fight as they tend not to stay close to you

thieves – same d/p immune so you must land block or f3 or you dead . save chaos storm for their SR

Calypso.2578:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/646261969

The mesmer’s name is Braiin.

nice fights but what the mesmer did exactly in those fights?
almost no dmg , die a lot by being focused , almost no shatter got used or hit

its just a proof that mesmers are preety weak in those tpvp high tier fights as thief can do it better or even lb ranger in some maps

conditions proc and dmg potential for BD:

condition state will be base at 1405 +might stacks from shatter or staff clones bounce around 5 in average so 1550 (if staff guard with me or i use AT the might stack can be 15-20 which buff my dmg to 2k.

cover condition which do dmg:
burning – 680-730 . staff clones spread it out nicely for 1 sec so hard to cleanse it unless you immune to conditions like warrior. also torch for 3.5 sec
bleed – usually 5 stacks when playing scepter and 8-10 stack when playing with staff 560-1200 dps (with geomancy it gives 3 aoe stacks)
poison – 235 from doom sigils and chaos storm, duration around 7 sec in average unless cleanse

cover conditions which dont do dmg:
vulnerability, weakness, chill and cripple for short duration unless you go 4,4,0,0,6 then vulnerability can stack up to 25 stacks

main source of control condition dmg:
confusion: image, confusion images, shatter skills, average 5-10 stacks, dmg 850-1700 per skill used, duration around 5 sec but got fast icd on skills
torment – AA and scepter clones, illusionary counter and shatter skills average 8-12 stacks dmg 720-2000 depends if moving ,duration in average 5 sec unless cleansed

sum it up and calculate for 5 sec duration on minimum dmg
680+560+235+720=2195*5=10975+confusion if skill used lets assume twice=12675
if we lucky and calculate it with max dmg 730+1200+235+2000=4165*5=20825+confusion 24225

now lets average them because conditions take time to stack it will be around 18k dmg for 5 sec which is around 3700 damage per seconds
now even when you calculate it for 2.5 sec its still 9k dmg and repeatable

now lets take into consideration that ppl cleanse the conditions when they see 5 confusion and 5 torment – to proc them both i need only 1 shatter F1 or Icounter or i mage or confusion images which is easy to do every 10 sec

also take into account its aoe dmg mostly if your shatter hit and if the get killed the proc bleed or weakness or vulnerability which buff you team dmg and debuff your enemy dmg which are nice also

so i wont get burst dmg like the power one who can dish out around 18k dmg in 1 combo burst but can do it slower and aoe and repeatable

now consider playing with necro who spread condition (i tried it once and we got blame for hacking as we did 10 torment, poison, burning , 10 bleed and 5 confusion on mid on 4v4) but its more wvw mainly i guess as its hard to get it off

hope it answer you request