Guild Wars 2

Riku.4821:

You are correct in all matters. But the problem is it jsut seem to many people WANT to play berserkers. The only way they could solve that is remove it. OR make the game to punishing to DPS race players by adding OHK or harder mechanics than press 1.

People don’t WANT to play berserkers, people WANT to play the most efficient build. When there is no reason to bring anything other than pure damage, the gear set that offers pure damage is going to become the most efficient build.

One Hit Kills punish all gear sets equally, so they would not change the meta. You would need to increase the rate of attacks that mobs use in order to punish players who take no Toughness/Vitality. Passive defense is fairly pointless in this game primarily because active defense is more effective (you take 0 damage) and recharges fast enough to be available for each one of a boss’ telegraphed big hits. If you only have to fear the big hits, then all players have equal defense because you can mitigate all damage using player skill alone. If all players have equal defense, then adding more useless defense is useless, which is exactly why berserker gear is king.

KurisuSutoraiku.9541:

Alright, thanks, I’ll try for it, it’ll probably take a year right?

I think they’ve made some changes that made some of the grindier achievements easier, I know before you had a hit a few years of Nine Rings to get Lucky/Unlucky maxed out.

KurisuSutoraiku.9541:

Is it possible to still get all 50/50 or even 30/50 in the Hall of Monuments? I don’t really mind how long it would take, just wondering if it was still possible. Seeing the achievement category for it being empty really bugs me, and the rewards and titles look pretty nice too. Anyone know if it’s still possible?

Still possible, but it will take you a long time.

You signed a contract that stipulated that they can change the game in any way they want, including editing your inventory.

So while you may argue that you didn’t read that newspaper, they have a copy of that newspaper where you wrote “I read this” and signed your name.

Nick.6972:

Why would you spend real money on keys? I’ve opened around 20 chests with story keys, and 0 scraps/weapon tokens.
It’s a total rip off for gamblers.

Keys are a giant waste of time/money. They are an even bigger waste of time if you farm them. However, you would buy them because they are going to cost you an hour of your life no matter how you get them, but you can get at least twice as many for that hour of your life if you use cash instead of farming them.

Regardless, people are free to farm or buy them.

Reikou.7068:

Astralporing.1957:

Because they assume that every main and overflow has similar numbers and organization to what TTS can pull off. This is like designing content for casuals, but using the top 1% as a balancing point.

Why is the assumption that these knights are “content for casuals?”

Probably because this game has about 200 non-casual players across all servers?

ellesee.8297:

or you could instead have $10.88 to spend on anything you wanted. not everybody who farms bl keys is some poor schmuck irl. why does it matter to you or anybody what people do with their time?

The whole point of my post was that “they are only hurting themselves, so why should anyone care?”

JustTrogdor.7892:

I see this come up in other threads about farming. Why do people assume all GW2 players work on an hourly wage?

It’s not an assumption, it’s an illustration. I myself am salaried.

KarateKid.5648:

Yah, but there’s not a SINGLE jumping puzzle at work. I know, I’ve looked!

Maybe no JPs, but we’ve got a killer Dungeon in the basement.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Following this terrible argument, you may as well get a minimum wage job and buy all your legendary weapons on payday, then quit the game.

Reducto ad absurdum. 1/10 for effort in crafting that nonsense.

Darkobra.6439:

Real money can be spent on other games, electricity, food, shelter, clothes, you get the idea.

Now if I was to waste it on a RNG game to save myself an hour of my own personal time, I now have less money for the exact same strength booster I’ve just got for absolutely FREE!

I think you should reread my post, because you’ve basically just defended my argument while calling it wrong.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

^^ This. I make a lot more that $10.88 per hour. And I have precious little spare time, so when I want to PLAY my GAME, I want to spend my time having fun, not doing another job. Personally, I’d much rather spend some money on gems than do the farm thing. However, if people enjoy it, who am I to judge? I doubt it affects ANet’s bottom line at all, because they still have plenty of people who do spend a lot of real life cash on gems. Leave peeps alone to do whatever they want as long as it’s not affecting your game play.

You got the gist of it, but missed the underlying point which is that I’m not judging, I’m saying “leave them alone since they are only hurting themselves”.

Zenith.6403:

You mean… that our time… has value?
and playing this game… cuts the value short… below that of… minimum wage job?

The despair is real.

The despair was always real, now you are enlightened. Enlightenment is depressing.

Dear ArenaNet: for future reference, Living Story items should scale to the current map population (or in the case of the Knights, scale based on number attuned), not on the maximum possible population.

I tried it a few times over the weekend and my server’s best attempt was 30 people at blue and 0 at red and green. At least we can kill the Spider Queen…

Black Lion Keys are 125 gems, or $1.56.

If you can farm 3 keys in an hour, that means you are paying yourself $4.68 per hour. Had you instead worked an hour of overtime at a minimum wage job you would have earned $10.88 for your hour and could have purchased those 3 keys with the same amount of time spent (1 hour) and had $6.20 left over to do anything you wanted with.

If people want to farm the keys, it’s really their loss.

CC Danicia.1394:

Please don’t delete them!

You can hold on to your extra blade shards, as the team will be adding something later which will allow you to convert the shards to something of value. Dev will be announcing more on that later. Thanks!

Rule #1 for Living Story items: Don’t delete them until the story has ended.

Coldin.2840:

mtpelion.4562:

it certainly appears that it is nearly impossible to fail the Assault Knights (pre-patch anway, haven’t tested it since).

Test it.

At work. Will test when possible.

Anything that has a timer attached to it will always be a DPS check. That isn’t the question here.

The question is this: Is the DPS check so onerous as to require specific gear sets and builds? The answer, for the most part, is “No”. Granted, a full group of Settler’s-geared players probably won’t stand a chance, but it certainly appears that it is nearly impossible to fail the Assault Knights (pre-patch anway, haven’t tested it since).

In regard to the class mechanic utilization and its effectiveness across classes, I think the explanation is as follows:

If Class Mechanic is used correctly in a perfect scenario the DPS potential is:
Guardian – 100% DPS
Warrior – 100% DPS
Engineer – 100% DPS
Ranger – 100% DPS
Thief – 100% DPS
Elementalist – 100% DPS
Mesmer – 100% DPS
Necromancer – 100% DPS

If the Class Mechanic is completely ignored, the DPS potential becomes:
Guardian – 85% DPS
Warrior – 85% DPS
Engineer – 85% DPS
Ranger – 70% DPS
Thief – 85% DPS
Elementalist – 85% DPS
Mesmer – 85% DPS
Necromancer – 85% DPS

Now, we have to then look at the scenarios that are not optimal and the probability of the scenario being not optimal (this section is approximated based on my opinion and numbers do not reflect any type of measured value):

Guardian – 100% DPS (really doesn’t have a non-optimal situation since the class mechanic is a combination of invincibility, healing, and fire damage. Immune to burning enemies/objects would be the only limiting factor)

Warrior – 100% DPS (as adrenaline builds regardless of what you are hitting, DPS potential is never lost while in combat).

Engineer – ??% DPS (I don’t have a lot of experience with Engineer, but I have noticed that some F# abilities do not function when kits are equipped so that would be a limiting factor).

Ranger – 70% DPS (When you pet is dead or cannot attack your target because of the target type/location/etc.)

Thief – 85% DPS (can’t steal against some target types)

Elementalist – 100% DPS (can always change attunements)

Mesmer – 90% DPS (I’m not super experienced with Mesmers either, but with the ease at which clones/illusions are created the only limiting factor I can think of would be enemies that the clones/illusions cannot reach and since shattering is only part of the mechanic, I’ve given them a 90%)

Necromancer – 100% DPS (Life Force can always be generated).

Lankybird.8149:

I thought buying cheap iron salvageable armor was common sense. And I am a newbie.

It is common sense… if you think about it. Most players think:

“I need Iron Ingots for this back piece, therefore I will buy Iron Ingots from the Trading Post for my back piece.”

Mystic.5934:

on the same note, add a collection slot for mystic clovers

Also, more recipes that utilize Mystic Clovers.

Lankybird.8149:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Vol.7601:

but I hope to take advantage of the patch notes!

Shhhhhhhhhhh. Trade secrets.

From what I can tell if you are in the TP game than you know the game. I am just trying to get in on it looking for tips and such. Not current secrets but yeah past rackets that were successful are always helpful. I think everyone in GW2 who had iron or needed it noticed the effects of the market and realized buying cheap armor that could salvage for iron worth more than the armor was a quick and easy profit. Not really a -trade secret- … realizing the dataminning and staying ahead of the curve is the big secret I guess.

It is important to know the source of a material.
In the Iron example, the first thing to rise was the price of the iron itself, because that is what the specific recipe called for (the iron and steel ingots, which are almost universally known to come from iron ore, so all three raised quickly as supply was bought out by those seeking profits and those building backpieces).

Then there was the second wave of profit that came from buying inexpensive salvage items, armor, weapons, etc. that drop iron ore when salvaged. Most players who are looking to acquire their ingots aren’t going to make the salvage connection, so they are only buying up ingots and ore. This meant that other players who understood the sources of iron were able to buy up those items for next to nothing, salvage them into iron ore, and sell them for a significant profit.

Moral of the story: Know ALL the ways to get an item, and you’ll know ALL the ways to make a profit with it.

I’ll sign this suggestion. They are going to be a permanent addition to the game going forward, so they should have a collection slot.

Mystic.5934:

Aberrant.6749:

@ OP if you can find indirect ways of making things which are profitable I’ve always found those ways to be the best. Also patch days are $.$

these posts always make me a little sad. I work patch days. patches go live at like noon I believe? basically, I’ve always been 5 hours late to the party. There have been only a couple patches I was able to profit from.

Same here. Patch day for me is usually the day where I get to see how well other made out.

The Iron value spike lasted long enough for me to profit, at least.

When I buy $25 worth of digital lottery tickets in a video game, I should be guaranteed to win at least some valueless digital items that give me a sense of enjoyment from them. Anything less just isn’t fair.

Corrections in bold.

Ledddawe.8964:

thx a lot and do u think that crafting booster helps to lower cost ?

Yes, albeit slightly.

http://www.gw2crafts.net/leatherworking_400.html

Personally, I would have designed the Black Lion Chests to ALWAYS pay out a ticket scrap, no matter what, with a low chance for a full ticket.

I’d also then lower the scrap to ticket conversion rate slightly to offset.

This would maintain my profit level from selling keys and keep the in-game economy impact the same while also mitigating a lot of player anguish over “wasted keys” since you’d always be building equity in your tickets as opposed to the current scenario in which you could potentially NEVER get a ticket (because RNG is an evil mistress).

My big problem with Black Lion Chests (and the reason I never buy keys) is that it is always a straight up gamble, and gambling is for suckers. If you designed it so that there was gambling AND progress you could keep it as a profit generator AND increase the participation rate in key purchases.

For items you can’t sell, drop them in the Mystic Forge with other items you can’t sell. It’s a gamble, but you could get something that is able to be sold/salvaged which is better than simply deleting the things.

Vol.7601:

Yeah I generally do not recommend investing in lower-priced commodities unless you have
a.) a lot of capital invested in it
b.) extremely confident it will go up
c.) an alt account that uses TP as storage

For example, mithril ore rising from 30c to 50c would only result in 50s profit per stack (taxes not incl). When you consider how much bank space you need to have this worthwhile, it is not worth it. There are opportunity costs in investing.

If you had an alt account that stockpiled, say, 2000G worth of mithril ore at 30c (appx 666K mithril), then you would end up with 1333 gold in profit.

This is why I have 3 alt accounts. I invest in three lower-priced commodities and each of them has several hundred gold in them and use the TP as storage so that bank opportunity costs are kept to a minimum

These commodities I’m investing in are at a low right now, and I’m 100% extremely confident that I will make a return of at least 300% off other speculators in the near future, and possibly 560% this commodity gets actual use.

Oh and one of those commodities, everyone knows is Thick Leather Sections, but the other two are the ones I’m talking about!

Low profit commodities do work well if you don’t have a lot of capital but do have a lot of space. They are an OK starting point because they allow you to begin investing and diversifying with relatively low risk.

Once you have capital though, you can afford to enter a lot of better markets and at that point the space is wasted on low profit items.

Honestly, I’d recommend using a low profit market as your training ground if you are just getting started so that you can learn how to find profit without risking your tiny capital pool.

I’ve got 6 knight kills and loot only dropped from the first one. I joined that fight late.
The other 5 dropped no loot. I was at those fights from the beginning, did the same DPS, was with the same sized group, and got gold contribution for each.

Loot is bugged for sure.

Essence Snow.3194:

Let me re-quote it for you. It was not saying you were greedy, selfish, or vain. It said that those comments, just like the one you made about others being jealous, are ad hominems. Evidently you missed that.

You have to expect the ad hominems at some point when you consistent fail to actually provide arguments for people to counter.

It eventually reaches the point where, for lack of a better word, you are basically “trolling” when you are simply rehashing your opinion in many different forms instead of advancing the debate.

And the “TP is bad” crowd do give off a super heavy “jealousy” vibe, so that’s really more like their team name rather than a personal attack.

Big Tower.5423:

Big Tower.5423:

mtpelion.4562:

The final “6” in the number has the far right edge cut off (evidence of photoshop). Let’s not also forget that the red splash is centered behind the first 4 numbers and not behind the center “6” (where it would be had this been a 5 digit number).

I didnt photoshop lol. youre coming with very stupid assumptions here. This is not photoshopped and is not edivence of photoshop i dont even have photoshop for kitten sake XD

Fine. You used Paint. Same difference. Doctored photo.

I have a feeling the blade shards will get their binding removed once the Living Story content is complete.

http://www.gw2crafts.net/

Pick your profession from the list.

Cost changes all the time due to fluctuations in the market.

The final “6” in the number has the far right edge cut off (evidence of photoshop). Let’s not also forget that the red splash is centered behind the first 4 numbers and not behind the center “6” (where it would be had this been a 5 digit number).

You’ll need to increase your crafting skills to use them, but there are recipes that utilize some ascended materials that are not bound once you’ve crafted them.

Go here for an example: http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/46731

Rallar.2986:

Meh that’s a gimmick.

Makes more sense to advertise deals and let the walk ins be surprised.

Its what wal-mart does and big chains do :p

Of course it is a gimmick. Wal-Mart doesn’t need to worry about increasing walk-ins because they already have a ton of them. ArenaNet does need to worry about increasing logons because without them the game dries up.

Ectos are probably the easiest item to farm outside of node materials. You have guaranteed drops of rare items from some meta events along with the boss chests that have high rare drop rates.

Just add a daily circuit of boss events to your routine and you’ll be rolling in ectos.

That kind of defeats the purpose of having a special each day. The draw is to get you to log in to find out what it is.

Essence Snow.3194:

Now some players would be earning 100s of 1000s of gold per day while most will be earning in the 10s. Is this okay?

Yes, because this causes no problems for anyone.

Agreed. Crafting recipes that are mirrored across the crafting professions should require identical quantities.

If there is a surplus of a material that is driving it’s value down, that surplus should be handled through the introduction of either a “Nicholas the Traveler” type character who accepts the oversupplied item in exchange for goodies, or a merchant similar to the Zephyrite ones who accepts crafting materials as a currency.

Tic Tac Toe.1482:

Though I could be wrong, it does not seem like RNG here.

Actually, that seems exactly like RNG.

RNG is random, thus unpredictable. Especially in very small sample sizes.

Essence Snow.3194:

Idk if I can even reply to you anymore. Can you seriously believe that what players want in a game has no impact? If that’s the case…I’ll simply have to cease replying to you b/c that’s too far in left field for me.

Income disparity is ONLY a problem when it prevents people from obtaining items necessary for survival. In the real world, you can reach such a disparity that those with the wealth can actually use it to prevent others from surviving, though typically an economy will stagnate long before that point is reached as there is a lack of currency circulation.

Since everything that is necessary is practically free in this game, income disparity does not have an impact.

The problem is that some people incorrectly use the term “income disparity” to describe their lust for the large gold amounts that other people have, but are unwilling to put in the same effort those people did to acquire a similar large amount of gold.

Essence Snow.3194:

lol What? Can’t tell if serious……

Everything you NEED to play the game is available very inexpensively and thus does not require any significant quantity of time or in-game currency to acquire.

After that, the stuff you WANT (i.e. skins that offer no advantage) is going to cost real life money in the form of gem purchases.

Because everything you need is available easily, income disparity has NO IMPACT in the game for the general playerbase.

Essence Snow.3194:

The profit potential of most activities is limited by direct game mechanics. Trading however is not. Trading is only limited by indirect means. Thus most activities profit potential is linear where trading is exponential.

What does this do? It creates an ever widening wealth disparity between trading and everything else.

Why does that matter? Anet has decided to focus the reward structure in this game on gold. There inlies why continually increasing gold disparities matters. In this genre of game rewards are vital and player population is vital. A major aspect of player satisfaction is perceived fairness and a major factor of population is player satisfaction. This comes into play in games where if a player feels they are getting the short end of the stick (so to say) they can and do simply stop playing. This is not what we want. We want to take measures to retain as many possible players as possible and not funnel players into one area/aspect of the game. One of those measure applies to smoothing out inequalities. We see this across the board with only one major exception. We see it when one class is ridiculously OP (over powered), when one is ridiculously UP (under powered). We see it when one area offers an unbalanced amount of reward compared to the rest. We see it time and time again for good reason.

If we don’t smooth out inequalities we effectively funnel players or worse chance losing players.

There is also the gold seller/bot issue, but that is a whole other can of worms.

I think the most important thing that needs to be corrected about your position is that the reward structure is NOT based on gold, it is based on gems (the item that is used to monetize the game). You have the option to convert your time spent into gems, but that is not and was never intended to be the primary method by which gems are acquired.

Income disparity is therefore a non-issue, outside of personal instances of jealousy.

LordByron.8369:

We need an economy CDI in GENERAL section…..or we won t go anywhere….

Because the best way to govern sheep is to put the wolves in charge, right?

A Trading Post CDI in the General Forum would simply be greedy people looking for ways to hurt others who have more fake money than they do. Almost exactly like how real life works only with more discussion of why killing people should pay more money than it does.

Cruril Darksbane.2318:

Vol.7601:

Pro-tip..
1.) Ascended is not required and this ‘vertical progression’ is miniscule enough to be ignored without noticing any improvement
2.) You can get an ascended backpiece without any crafting (and if you use the Forge as an example of crafting, all you do is click buttons a few times and you get your backpiece)

To be competitive you need to be in the best gear possible. Equally skilled players in wvw will lose based on equipment.

Therefore you NEED ascended to be considered a competitive wvw player unless you are a insanely good commander or skilled. Even then being commander means you do not want to die so Ascended again is better than exotics.

Considering the end game is grind, pvp, or wvw…

In the controlled competitive environment of PvP, gear is normalized in order to level the field, which is as it should be in competitive PvP because that is a game. WvW is a hybrid concept that seeks to simulate a “war” and thus will never be “balanced” which means that arguments about gear imbalances are moot.

Obviously, having better gear gives you an advantage in WvW… and that is how it should be in a “war simulator” because war is never “fair”.

Bringing back old skins and introducing news skins as items you pay money for is the entire concept of how this game is funded…

MOTD should pop up on login or represent in Guild Chat.

It should also pop up on screen for anyone who is logged in when it gets changed.

Essence Snow.3194:

It’s not about just you or I. It’s about the game as a whole. It’s about how it’s not remotely balanced with the rest of the game. It stands alone on a pedestal, yet it’s effects are far reaching.

Balancing it would not require nerfing it into the ground. It would simply bring it more inline with the rest of the game. Steps could be taken to adjust gold sinks to compensate for it as well. Balancing it could be done in a manner that would benefit the game….ie…make it better, more fun <—-looking at you JS, more balanced….as a whole. Consideration for more players would aid the overall health of the game, not just a few and/or one’s “baby” (economic project), seen by numbers alone.

We need to think of the game as a whole and not reside in a vain abstract.

Fairness noun

Situation in which you have a benefit at the expense of others, but they don’t realize it.

All jokes aside:

When you talk about “Balancing” the TP what you are really asking for is limiting the way others are playing the game because you feel like they have an advantage over you.

Fact of the matter is that people who play dungeons have an advantage in that they can amass more dungeon tokens, people who play fractals have an advantage in that they can amass more infusions, people who play PvP have an advantage in that they can amass more [insert PvP reward name], and people who play the market have an advantage in that they can amass more gold.

There is a very important philosophical concept at play here, and that is what “equality” means to you. Some people believe that equality means “opportunity is not restricted”. Others, such as yourself, believe that equality means “all outcomes are the same”.

From my perspective, the trading post is perfectly balanced since absolutely nothing is preventing anyone from participating in it. From your perspective, the trading post is imbalanced because you don’t want to participate in it but want to have the same level of reward as those who do.

Pie Flavor.1647:

RemiRome.8495:

9999 is simply the limit per transaction. Just do it twice.

source: bought gems for 400g (200g per transaction is max)

edit: there could of course be an actual time limit for gem->gold for obvious reasons but you didn’t say you tried multiple transactions.

yes I managed to exchange all of it for gold (one transaction of 8000 and one of 4000, also today was the highest point historically of gold:gem exchange rate, at 6.83 gold per 100 gems), I’m afraid because Anet has a history of ban trigger happy and to punish instead of prevent. And me doing such a big transaction is such a short timeframe would be grounds for considering my behavior “suspicious”.

I don’t think you have to worry about spending money being “suspicious”.

MAGpie.7962:

I guess people like Einstein, Mother Teresa, and Gandhi did not get that memo…

The opinions of those people are irrelevant to the discussion. This was simply an appeal to authority fallacy mixed with a red herring.

Greed, is what caused he economic crises not too long ago, a crises most of the world is still struggling to come to terms with. But then, if you don’t care about having a job or don’t have a family to support, you would probably not really care about that either.

Greed does not drive ambition, success, imagination… any of it. Greed, drives greed. Selfish indulgence, short sighted gluttony… yeah, a lot can be said about greed, nothing, I am afraid, good.

Without greed, you’d wake up, eat, and go to bed. It is what drives you to better your situation and acquire more than you need for basic survival. This is a commonly accepted truth in all forms of philosophy.

As with anything, too much greed is bad, just as too little greed is also bad. Greed, by itself, is neither good or bad. In balance it drives civilization. Out of balance is creates conflict and chaos.

And if you think flipping deflates the economy, then you failed at basic math as well.

Ha! That’s a good one!

I am of the opinion (and this is only an opinion), that the GW2 economy is unhealthy, and getting worst. The real-world disparity between the rich and the poor is starting to show. Has been for a long time now to be honest…

Though, it is a video game, and to be fair, what does it make you for have 100k gold in GW2? I am guessing someone who is… in between jobs, for a lack of better terms.

Income disparity is only a problem in the minds of those who desire to have what others have and no desire to do what others do.

As long as you have enough to survive, wealth is PURELY OPTIONAL.

nagymbear.5280:

While I do appreciate your update on the state of the CDI thread, I didn’t mention class mechanic at all. And I am one of the people who thinks that ranger doesn’t need an overhaul. An overhaul will result in bug fixes that destroy more builds than come to life due to the overhaul. Some people have the misconception that Longbow autoattack needs more damage, or that permastow would solve anything. This is not aimed at you mtpelion, just sayin’ that rangers need to sort out their heads as well…

I inferred that you were talking about the class mechanic since that’s where most of the overhaul suggestions have been directed, sorry if that wasn’t what you meant!

I do think that our weapon skills need some definition as they feel confused at times (we have shortbow as the Ace of condition damage and then a hodge-podge of Jacks), and our traits certainly need help as well. I’m not going to call for a full out overhaul of those though as I do believe that they are manageable as tweaks that give each weapon a clearer purpose.

Pets need the overhaul for sure though, as they are something we have to overcome rather than something that complements our class.

I really like where people have taken the idea of the aspects.

I’d like to see it work so that having the pet out or the aspect up is a tactical decision that gets made as you are playing the game.

I also had an idea about splitting pets between selfish and group pets and then having the aspect of that pet be the opposite. For example, the Stalker with it’s AoE buff for the group would be a group pet, so the Stalker aspect would buff the Ranger whereas the Reef Drake’s ability is selfish (it only helps the Ranger’s DPS) so the Aspect of the Reef Drake would buff all party members near the Ranger (maybe a buff that allows allied attacks to have a 5% chance to cause confusion?)

This would add a level of strategy to your pet selection and make Rangers more desirable for group play (since we are supposed to be the sustained single target class, grouping up is not going to be our strong suit which will make us “unwanted” unless we bring something to the table that others can’t bring).

EDIT: I also want to point out that the aspect idea was meant to complement pet play, and not replace the fixes that pets desperately need in terms of moving targets, survivability, pathing, etc. While it should certainly be possible to play as a pet only Ranger or an aspect only Ranger if you so choose, I think the best results should be available to those who learn when to use which.