I come from a thief, recently switched to ele as thief didn’t have much synergy with my friends toons and was getting boring.
I played burst d/d spec and certain classes (elementalist, ranger, most thieves), were a guaranteed kill in sub 5 seconds. I would kill eles in my first combo. so sub 2 seconds.
Mesmers took a little more work, but not bad if you caught them unaware.
From an ele standpoint, when you’re wearing light armour, and lowest hitpoint tier, in WvW it stops you traiting for damage entirely as any no skill chump can C+D + steal you then heartseeker for 2-3k you a few times afterwards. So you end up with very little capability to deal damage and speccing alot of defence….or more commonly in pvp just not playing an ele and rolling a warrior, who laughs at every class he meets. Which explains the current issue with pvp matches being full of warriors and the dissapearance of elementalists and mesmers.
If you spec damage you’ll die within seconds to thieves/zerk warriors..if you spec defence you’ll die a bit slower, but won’t kill anyone. So why bother putting yourself through that annoyance.
Also…everyone targets the elementalist first for this reason. It’s like being teemo in LoL, you’re first target because everyone is aware you’ll either fall over or the fight you’ll put up won’t really put them in any significant danger. My friend loves it though, now people target me instead of him, whereas they used to target him and not my thief.
Buff : Rangers – need better survivability and damage on longbow specs/ better pet abilities/ai.
Eles: Better survival tools and more cc. It’s either a case of being truly glass and falling over as soon as someone looks at you, or having mediocre defence and mediocre damage. A case of ’ I can’t kill you…but you can probably kill me if you keep on trying long enough.’
Necros: Give them some more escapes/closers/mobility.
Nerf : Warriors of course. High hps and high armour and high damage, a constant healing tick with almost cc immunity and condition clears with access to ranged damage. Please…..
“Here’s what I think – Cleansing Ire is not as bad as people make it out to be – you actually have to LAND your F1 in order to clear the condies – and a good player won’t allow you to.”
This is what i hate, this sort of argument. Surely if the warrior is a good player he will land it every time. Do you instantly lose your ability to play once you choose warrior, do you lose the ability to time attacks and count dodge rolls. When I play my warrior in spvp i rarely miss an adrenal attack with any weapon, it’s not that hard.
Also, if you’re having trouble landing the longbow F1, then this isn’t the game for you.
I’m sure it seems OP but play one and you’ll find the weaknesses (poison).
Kind of off this topic, but considering most warriors run melandru, and only a few classes have poison access and warriors get best condition clear in the game, it’s not really a weakness.
Oh, they’re also nerfing poison field durations on the two classes who classes who had the most reliable way to land poisons. So you get it even easier now.
Anyway, back to RTL, it just seems there are alot of double standards in this game when it comes to abilities/utility cooldown,function and tier level. Especially elementalist cooldowns, it’s like every utility is an elite.
I don’t think i’ve ever been hit, or hit anybody with dragons tooth.
Bump this..its so frustrating
Dude, you were brave posting this on the warrior boards.
Apparently doing 15K damage from 1200 range on a class with 20k health and 3k armour value is ok because it’s a warrior.
But because it has a charge up time, and an animation you are specifically meant to watch out at all times and save a dodge for that specific moment just in case it happens. Don’t worry about all those other people trying to hit you, or trying to hit them, you should just constantly be watching the warrior for the killshot wind up.
I’ve come to understand that people who play warrior almost exclusively have forgotten what full glass means.
Full glass isn’t 20k hps with 3k armour. For everyone but a necro that is considered very tanky. Glass means sub 2k armour and sub 15k hps.
The elementalists hardest hitting moves give you nice red circles to walk out from.
Even thieves have to get around behind you.
No single move should hit this hard with any build in a game where some classes can’t get above 15k hps without seriously dropping any sort of damage stats.
So basically you need a class which can spike damage and can cast confusion and blinds alot, and conditions.
So basically….no one class.
At the point someone is basically saying ‘If you bring multiple classes you can probably win against me’ there’s something wrong with the class.
F1 skills do not generate adrenaline unless you have the furious trait and you crit.
Anet also believed this was the case and nerfed the longbow without any reason.Also, no D/D eles are not melee. D/D ele is range 300, melee weapons are range 130.
Warriors only have 1 semi viable ranged weapon, the longbow. Rifle is…unfortunate:(
And yes, while other classes can go melee as well, its the warrior that defines the melee playstyle.
Cleansing ire, that is the source of your adrenal regen. Because you’re pretty much constantly being hit in a fight adrenaline just fills right back up. I’ve played warrior enough to understand adrenal mechanics and how easy and quickly the bar refills.
Are you really saying that 300 range isn’t melee range? Try and maintain 300 distance from another ‘melee’ player, as in theory you shouldn’t get hit at all, record it and come back. Should be easy since 300 is such a huge distance in this game apparently.
If you’re saying being able to do 15kcrits at 1200+ range every 7 seconds or so is unfortunate, then you’ve not played any other classes have you. I’m sure being able to instakill players in the time it takes for a full adrenal must really be hard going.
Therefore, rank does not equate to skill. In most instances, it’s the opposite. There’s a reason why most WvW-ers are horrible at 1v1, whilst sPvP or tPvP players are a lot better at it.
Pretty much this.
So you’re equating hours played to being good?
All it shows is you have alot of time on your hands and favour playing the easiest class out of your sig.
I agree LB, when I get chain stunned/knocked down by a class who I can’t even seem to dent, or when I get cloak and dagger+backstab combod for 3/4 of my life the first thing that comes to mind is ‘That kitten ed vapour form, it’s really breaking this game.’
All jokes aside, if you’re complaining about an ability which is only usable once your opponent is dead, meaning you have already killed him, then it’s fair to say your class is the better one and stop complaining.
Putting it bluntly
The fact that you called Longbow ‘meh’ in WvW pretty much sums up what sort of player you are.
Warrior is a melee?
So a d/d ele isn’t a melee? A gs/axe ranger isn’t a melee? A d/d necro isn’t a melee?
You’re only a melee if you choose to be. You have access to rifle and longbow. If those weapons weren’t that effective why do I see so many of them in pvp/wvw. If I said to you ’Would you rather have a longbow ranger on your team or a longbow warrior..which would you have? ’ Every class can be kited.
Don’t even begin to suggest that adrenaline gain is somehow a problem. Adrenaline is back to full a few seconds after using an F1 ability in fights. Also how is a constant health regen useless in battle?
Fast hands being a class feature? Eles have to spec 30 pnts into arcane just to get their swaps down to 10 seconds from 13 seconds.
It’s always the same when you argue with warrior players, you somehow believe that warriors are the only ones to take damage in this game or are subject to cc or conditions which justifies all your abilities and hitpoints/toughness.
Really, vapour form is overpowered now?
Why not just change the ability bar for elementalists so that when they see an opponent they instantly change into a lootbag which the the opponent can pick up.
Would that make it easier for you?
Of all the classes to complain about you’re picking an ele? Next you’ll be complaining about how op ranger pets are.
Killshots can hit for 15k upwards from a range of 1200 plus.
If you’re fighting a in a zerg are you telling me you are actively looking for the rifle warrior to get on his knee and fire whilst everything else is going on.
Don’t you think the rifle warrior may actually time his shot?
No ability should hit for that much damage from that far, especially on a high armour, high hp class.
Nothing like a statement with no explanation.
Can you fix the bug where after using rtl or lightning flash, or sometimes just randomly after ive been immobilised i’ll stay immobilsed until I use a movement skill.
It’s so insanely frustrating on an elementalist.
Warriors don’t have a weakness.
A high armour, high health, high damage, cc immune, condition immune with aoe damage and stuns and ranged aoe or highest ranged single target damage in the game and highest mobility in the game.
Which is why its the commonest class next to guardian in wvw.
I also don’t understand also why dogged march , a 33 percent snare reduction + regen is adept on a warrior, yet geomancer’s freedom , only a 33 percent snare reduction is a master tier trait.
Honestly after coming up against warriors in wvw today, the changes they made in spvp for them are amplified 1000 fold in severity.
Hah! Sadly I think that’s pretty close to the mark.
Ride the lightning: 1200 range, 336 damage, 40 sec recharge unless you hit someone, then 20 sec recharge, 180 radius.
Rush: 1200 range, 628 damage, 20 second recharge.
So why exactly was Rtl nerfed yet rush remains untouched?
Problem is warriors can put 30 in discipline and 30 in tactics and get everything they need.
No need for them to put into their power/prec lines at all.
WHy isn’t adrenal healing in the healing line?? it should be master/gm trait at least.
Dogged march should be master trait level. Eles get a worse version of the exact same trait ut it’s at master level.
Warriors lose nothing by speccing into those 2 lines, and with their high starting stats always end up better than any other class.
I found an afk warrior once and was interested in how much damage my auto would do to one.
My auto attack couldn’t out damage his healing signet+adrenal health.
I cried a little on that day on my elementalist.
Hambow warriors, gs/.hammer warriors.
Whatever. Its the go to class for face roll. The signet regen just makes it too easy.
When they can spec for damage yet still retain high armour and hitpoints and on top of that they have a huge regen…how exactly is that fair on anyone they face.
All i see in WvW are hambow warriors.
Its ridiculous how easy and strong they are to use. They put all the best skills in two lines.
I agree with you totally.
The biggest problem being trying to balance the game around Spvp. They tried to push it so much and make so many changes that once viable classes were extinguished into uselessness, not just in pvp but in wvw and pve.
They said ‘eles!, we’re lowering your healing ability,sustain and escape abilities now, but not doing anything to compensate you for it’ a year later they’re saying ’ Well we think eles need more sustain…’
Really! Lowering survival tools on a low armour, low hp class wasn’t going to have any repercussions as you buffed everyone elses damage/survivability?
The mind boggles.
Well gw2 is failing in that balance.
As soon as you introduced stat differences in health and armor you created that trinity.
When you give high hp/high toughness classes ranged/aoe damage abilities you create imbalance.
I played Warhammer, i’ve sadly nearly played most mmos to come out. Every thing will peak into individual roles, that’s why nearly every 5 man will run at least 1 guardian.
There’s no way you can tell me a group of 5 rangers will beat 2 guardians,1 warrior,1 ele and 1 necro all of equal skill.
If all classes were as balanced as you say then 50 percent of the time they would. really though? We know how that fight would turn out 10 times out of ten.
At it’s base level an MMO is a game of rock paper scissors. Every class should have a weakness, no one class should dominate in all aspects.
Warriors have no damage mitigation?
Really?
Endure pain, 2nd Endure pain in defence tree, Berserker stance, shake it off, dolyak signet, dogged march (just the most amazing ability for an adept trait, did you know elementalists get this at a master trait level, but without the heal component!, a worse ability at a higher tier!!), Thick skin, Adrenal health, cleansing ire, mobile strikes, warrior sprint, whirlwind attack and rush.
Just because you can’t cast protection/aegis you can still avoid/kite out damage better than anyone in the game. Adrenals are up every 7 seconds and get rid of 3 conditions a time. Adrenaline recharges so quickly it may as well have never been spent. All your great abilities are in two lines which benefit all your stats.
It’s funny, when I watch WvW videos, when small mans are taking out much larger forces guess who the class of the last few guys standing are from the opposing force. I’ll give you a clue, it’s not elementalists.
You can’t give heavy tanks ranged damage. There is no risk reward.
Heavy tanks shouldn’t get better health regen than every other class in the game either. Mechanisms to gain back health should be on classes with low health pool/armour who have less natural defence.
Even in games like Team fortress 2 the sniper has low hps, but high damage. The heavy has alot of hps, and great damage, but is slow as a snail. The scout is medium damage but very fast. That’s balance!
http://i.imgur.com/gPc5cN3.jpg
This here is why base stat differences are an issue. He has 25 stacks of blood lust, but really. Where is the compromise in this build?
Those stats are insane.
Dat power and crit damage.
If I were to attempt that on my thief or ele i’d have 11k hps and 900 toughness and no condition cleansing skills.
Just where is the downside to this build?
Why is it expected to face tank opponents? They have access to ranged weapons yes?
When i equip d/d on my elementalist i don’t suddenly gain 8k hps and an extra 500 toughness? But to hit with those i’m front line.
This is the issue. If warriors had 0 ranged options and had to get in melee range to attack their opponents all the time and could be kited effectively by ranged/soft classes then you can justify their damage/toughness/health (not that healing signet though, it’s ludicrously strong), but they DO have access to ranged abilities as strong as everyone elses ranged and at the same ranges and great mobility abilities. This imbalances everything.
Dark ages of Camelot had it right(and probably the best pvp/RvR in any game ever then and now).
Heavy armour classes had high hp/heavy armour/good damage and low mobility, but were fairly resistant to cc.
Medium melee had higher melee damage/lower hps and armour but good gap closers but were cc prone. Both classes had 0 viable ranged options.
The mage classes had low hps,low armour,prone to CC/interrupts but highest dps from range. It all balanced.
Here you have classes like the warrior which just ignore that basic balancing structure of pretty much every single mmo and rpg game ever made. There’s a reason rule existed no matter what the game.
You wear heavy armour and have lots of health, you don’t get to leap all over the screen.
You wear light armour and have little health you get to blast your opponents from a mile away and hope you can kill them before they reach you or you’re dead.
I agree. Having both the lowest armour values and lowest hp table values makes templating an elementalist 100x harder than other classes.
There’s no trade off with the situation.
A warrior can run a zerker build and still sit at 18k hp, 3614 power, 106 crit damage with 2157 armour.
An ele will sit at 3500 power, 1866 armour,106 percent crit damage, and 11k hp.
Or an warrior can throw 30 pts into discipline instead of strength and get 2557 armour, and only drop to 3449 power.
Show me the elementalist ability which hits harder than Killshot stage 3 Harper?
Churning earth has a recharge of 30 seconds and a cast timer of 3 seconds with pbaoe, killshot is 1500 range with 1 3/4 cast time on a 7 second timer.
Or were you talking about firegrab with its 45 second cooldown.
Oh, looks like none of the ele abilities can do that sort of damage, which would give warrior the title of being the class with ‘Highest hps, highest armour, best condition removal, best mobility and highest single target damage in the game.’
If you don’t want a holy trinity situation then you shouldn’t have such huge discrepancies in stats.
Don’t post that picture to the warrior forums. They’’ try and justify that damage with statements such as ’ Warrior needs to do that sort of burst because they are meant to be the best at damage’ Or ’ If they don’t have that many hps they can get trained down too easily!.’
The biggest problem I see with elementalists is the difficulty in templating due to the low base health and low base armour combined with very long timered utilities and lack of sustained dps.
Eles should be on the medium class tables. Or there should just be two tiers, 15k and 20k, remove the lower tier as there’s just too much of a gap between top and bottom.
Keep telling yourselves it’s your amazing skill that makes you good with a a warrior, yet with other classes you appear to be extremely mediocre…
BY that logic why don’t elementalists or rangers have high hp, are warriors the only class who are effected by burst damage?
I mean warriors have shield block and endure pain, zerker stance, dolyak signet, their new healing ability, fear me and such.
You have just as many escape abilities as other classes do(as well as the best escape abilities from weapons) as well as naturally high toughness?
Every class has to suffer burst damage, but they have to do it with lower toughness and lower hp.
p/d with perp runes is thea easiet/cheese build.
It’s the equivalent of the hambow build, requires no skill to play but honetsly, after coming up against it (more and more it seems) I just don’t stay to fight, and there’s nothing they can do.
In zergs it does nothing as well. It relies on someone sticking around and trying to fight you.
Just as a reminder:
They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). _
This is also hilarious, because they do have better ranged abilities than the ranger. Can you imagine the uproar if you gave the ranged the ability to do a 1500 ranged 14k+ damage ability on a 7sec timer?
I’d take a warrior with longbow over a ranger with longbow any day of the week.
Why would you spec for high healing power? You get amazing healing with signet+adrenal, best heal in the game. Uninterruptible healing.
Newsflash!, Every class who specs for high healing power has to give up a damage or defence stat.
Also every class who specs for dps has to give up a defence stat.
Except the warrior!
Regarding conditions, you have the best condition removal ability in the game, 3 conditions every 7 seconds whilst doing damage. No one has anything close to that. If you think conditions are an issue to a warrior just think how they are to absolutely everyone else in the game.
You just throw in 30 defence, 30 discipline 10 anywhere else and you’ve covered all the bases. No need to invest in the power or precision lines! Swap in any weapons, it’s all the same!
Someone has clearly never played a thief if you can make statements like that. Thieves don’t need armour or health. Good luck with that attitude. My thief would eat thieves who spec like that all day long.
I’ve run rifle on my warrior, and i’ve never missed a killshot. I’ll tell you the secret.
Always go for people who are engaged with someone/something else ,then just press F1. You will never ever miss. ever.
See? Was that so hard? Every ability can be dodged in this game if you time it right. That didn’t stop them nerfing thieves and backstab damage.
But really the damage from killshot is just part of the picture. As mentioned the picture being you can have great stats on a warrior and great survivability, access to great melee and great ranged with no trade off?
I used to argue for the warrior when the game first came out since they were sub par. Now they’re just crazy strong.
So that’s something i threw together in 5 minutes. That without wvw stacks or wvw buffs.
4k attack, 100 percent crit damage, 50 percent crit chance,20k health, 3k armour.
All Berzerk gear. Look, I haven’t spent a single point in the power line and only 10 in the prec line, yet look at the damage off of that. With the ability to throw out killshots every 7 seconds.
But look at what stats i get if I try to do the same with say…a thief….
Why look!, Oh yes, nice crit damage, good crit chance, good attack,..but oooh! the armour, only 2284, and only 14k health. It’s almost as if I had to sacrifice something in order to gain something in that template.
And look!, I can only do that huge combo every 45 seconds!. from point blank range, now imagine if I could do that from 1500….like say..killshot!.
But yeah, keep your blinkers on and keep claiming that having a huge base stat disparity yet still have the ability to access ranged weapons isn’t somehow ridiculously overpowered in an mmo. Being able to have huge damage/defence without putting any points into power or precision is the problem, no sacrifice is needed to get your stats.
Which is why you see so many warriors in WvW, it’s an easy forgiving class to play and spec.
So were going off class descriptions now are we…..
Btw, ive just been watching a group of 3 rifle warriors, 1 guardian and 1 ele tear it up in wvw. It’s all you can do to avoid being hit by 14k killshots, and considering my toughness is 2800, and I have a meaty 15khps, yet my combos do 1/5 of their bar at a time, it is pretty ridiculous.
Even thief backstabs don’t hit me for that much.
Warriors can spec full berzerk, still have 22khps and 3k armour and lose nothing. This is the problem.
Killshot is just crazy in wvw at the moment, it’s a 1500 range death sentence in a zerg. Nothing at that range should hit for that much, especialy from a heavy armour class.
Except for the fact that the class has unique mechanics that allow it to output more dps than any other class.
Just saying.
Heh.
There’s a slight difference between being able to output big dps when you have 11k hp and 1890 armour and being able to output big dps when you have 22k hp and 3k armour. dead dps=no dps.
This is what you seem to forget, combat doesn’t occur in a vacuum.
Nope, starting power stats are exactly the same for all classes.
They have no more damage than anyone else can attain.
After having played a glass canon thief the main thing to remember is the c+d/steal combo is 900 range. (playing ele now).
It can be dodged, and all decent players will do that. Soon as you see them approach use a dodge/aegis/etc, to stop the initial burst. Steal won’t be up for another 20 seconds or so.
They have 4 seconds from stealthing to get into position to backstab, and if using c+d have to be near you to restealth off it. It costs 5 initiative so you can’t afford to screw it up twice in a row.
Basically you should work on timings a bit better.
But…if you’re already in a fight and you get added on by a glass thief then you’re dead. But the same works in reverse so what can you do!
34k hp?
You do realise pretty much everyone you face has hp of 13-20k.
Look, as a warrior just run all zerker gear, spec 0,0,30,10,30 and you honestly can’t go wrong. You get 22k hps, 3k armour and great power and crit damage. Almost impossible to spec incorrectly on a warrior as it’s so forgiving due to high base hp and armour.
I think it’s odd that starting stats for stats like power/attack are equal across all classes, yet depending on the class you get bigger health pool and armour as a base.
Yet all classes have ranged dps access. If warriors were subject to not having a viable ranged option or could actually be kited then yes, give them more health/armour, but they do have access to great viable great ranged dps on a build which serves both melee as well. They have the best mobility and gap closers in the game as well.
How is the low health pool of the elementalist explained? They have dagger/dagger, which is melee? They’re not compensated by being given bigger power stats to offset the lack of hitpoints and there’s no such thing as mana pools, so they can’t cast more spells more frequently.
The strongest move in d/d (firegrab), is on a 45 second timer and requires the target to be alight, is weaker than level 3 eviscerate, a move which requires the adrenal bar to be full, which let’s face it, always is due to adrenal mechanics, and available every 7 seconds.
Or an earthshaker, an aoe 2 sec stun which hits for 4k+ on average still and is up every 7 seconds, yet an elementalists earthquake is on a 45 sec timer!
The disparities are pretty enormous. Either the elementalists base power/damage value of abilities should be enhanced to compensate for the lack of hitpoints, cast times should be reduced on some of the abilities or healthpools should be increased.
I go for the ranger on every class I play.
Bow rangers being the easiest kill in the game.
The condi axe spamming regen rangers are a very hard fight though 1v1. Although I always thought if you’re going to go melee spec why not roll a warrior, which is 100x more effective.