The other annoying thing about healing being attached to attack is with all the confusion flying about, spamming auto can hurt more than it benefits you alot of the time.
Correct me if i’m wrong, or if i missed something here.
Isn’t warrior healing signet just a massively superior version of the ele one?
Warrior – 392/second passive, active 3275, cooldown 20 seconds. cast time 1 1/4 second.
Elementalist -168/cast (so at max auto attack you’d heal 336/second), active 3275, cooldown 25 seconds, cast time 1 second.
So somehow that extra 1/4 second cast time for the warrior one makes up for higher cooldown and lower passive effect?
Healing signet was nerfed from 204/cast to 168 (I think that’s right) a while ago as it was deemed too strong.
With the warrior nerf it’ll be down to 361/second, still more than the ele spamming autos.
Maybe i am wrong, but it seems the ele nerf was a little harsh considering the heals out there.
Everyone knows (apart from warriors apparently) how strong warriors are.
I an go into pvp with my zerker ele and literally be one shotted by people, as having zero armour and 12k hp isn’t conducive to survival. I really tried on it, i tried staff/scepter, d/d zerker. Then even old fashioned dagger dagger with a survival spec. Sure i loved longer but I couldn’t even dent warriors.
So i get frustrated and load in my warrior, go standard spec, zerker, laugh as I notice the 20k hp even though i’ve put 0 in vitality and at most die maybe once a match whilst easily being able to kill and take nodes.
The passive heal from healing signet is 392. The heal from my eles signet is 168 per cast. You would think this would make more sense the other way around. Even if I spam lighting auto the total healed is less than 392. The active part is exactly the same for both signets.
So the ele healing signet is far worse that the warriors in every way. i don’t get it.
As a solo/duo roamer ele i’d be grateful seeing some fights against good thieves/condition/perplexity spammer engis/warriors as those are the fights which I find a bit of a nightmare.
The damage output from thieves just keeps me on the defensive the whole time, and the good ones never get caught in knockdowns and know when to stay stealthed, letting me waste offensive/defensive abilities. I even used to play a d/d thief, and never lost to eles, so i’m at a bit of a loss…
Perplexity engis just seem to be able to pew pew their way to keeping me stacked with connfusion+conditions as quick as I can clear them.
I end up at stalemates with warriors now (or a loss), I just can’t seem to out damage their regen. I beat a warrior yesterday who was using a non healing signet heal, the health actually went down and stayed down, the difference was just phenomenal.
Pvp is about capping nodes and getting to your teammates as quickly as possible to make a 2v2 into a 2v3 so winning the fight.
That’s pretty lame.
Atunements swaps are weapon swaps. If other classes don’t get weapon swaps effected by chill then why eles.
If you’re saying they’re not weapon swaps then eles only have one weapon set, so give them two to swap around.
Ele’s have huge cooldowns purposely as they can swap around 4 different bars to use. If normal classes had similar cooldowns you’d find you’d be stuck spamming auto attack for 40 seconds at a time at a time.
I don’t understand that since they made different starting stats for warriors, the high health/high armour. How come the ele didn’t get a better base power to compensate.
I don’t get it. The auto attack damage for an ele is worse than a warrior.
Where is the trade off. Range? With multiple gap closers range is nothing in this game.
All other games compensate their mages for being low hp/low armour with high/quick damage at range. This game just doesn’t seem to get that.
You would think so right?
But apparently it’s ok to have top armour, top health and best mobility/cc immunity/condition clears and be able to put out huge damage as well.
Yet on my ele i’m happy if I can land a 4k hit churning earth every 45 seconds on a class with twice my hitpoints.
Actually pretty easy to kill with it.
Sword 2, into flurry, switch to Gs and HB.
Also no hard cc? shield stun and flurry?
Root on snare.
It’s amazingly effective. The other person has to play defensively the whole time. I used to play it in pvp before the warrior buffs, nothing could touch me.
I honestly don’t know who all these thieves are you chaps are talking about, but i’ve never lost to an ele ever on my thief. As soon as you blew through the mist form, and shield there’s just nothing you can do. I’m hitting for 2-4k a hit and you have about 15khps or less, it’s not going to take me that long.
You can’t cc a thief, i’m invisible for 4/5 of the fight. As I stated, either i’m incredibly good on my thief (i’m not), or i’ve somehow only ever encountered the worse ele’s in the game.
Btw, my initial combo lands for a total of 19k sometimes on some eles. 1.5k mug, 5k c+d, 13k backstab + fire rune. There’s no way to outplay that, it’s just pure numbers.
A thief should never, ever lose to an ele. If you beat a thief, it’s beacuse the thief is terrible.
Problem with ele’s is they are in a bad position againd direct damage, and a worse one against condition as they have such low hps.
You mean like..the 20 pnt ability cleaning wave for elementalists, which is 1 condition removed every 10 seconds…
Cleansing ire should remove 1 condition maximum whatever the adrenaline.
3 conditions a time on a potential 7 second ability is ludicrously strong. Utilities which do that are on 30 second timers.
Really, want to play that game?
Aoe stun frequency warrior > all
Best mobility in game warrior > all
Highest health + highest armour warrior > all
Highest single target damage at range warrior > all
Highest invulnerability uptime warrior > all
See…i can do this all day.
You may as well type : Class who is called an Elementalist : Elementalist > All.
Thats right introp. Eles can burst you down in 3 seconds….Eles can hit you for a total of 20k+. Because all eles run 30,30,10 with all zerker gear, scholar runes and arcane skills as they just love getting one shot by everyone else. It’s a well known spec, I mean who specs in arcane anymore!
Like that guy who said he’s seen eles kill people with just a ride the lightning.
That’s why on the ‘which classes need improvement’ thread from anet, a large percentage of the people were using up a slot to ask for warriors to be toned down. Maybe they meant that it was eles who should be toned down, i mean they’re out there killing warriors in 3 seconds.
Well ele’s had all their regens,healing signet and heals nerfed because they were deemed too strong and unkillable.
Now a warrior can stand there and outregen my ele’s attacks without actively doing anything, which I just find hilarious!
Ele’s had RTL nerfed to 40 seconds with no target
Yet rush stays at 20 seconds with no target.
Adrenaline regen is just too easy. It would have been ok if you could only gain it on attacking. But now you get it on attacking, being attacked, not being attacked, pressing a button, spending an adrenal ability…..endless sources! You may as well just have a perma full adrenal bar.
The lack of ICD with abilities based of the bar is what makes warriors so strong (that combined with top health and top armour). Cleansing ire should have an icd. Adrenal health just ticks too frequently.
Dogged march should have an ICD as well being an adept tier skill. Perma 33 percent resistance with a regen at adept level. The ele version is a master tier level without the regen…
Warriors weakness was meant to be weak to conditions and cc and have to rely on others to help them with this area. Since they have made it so warriors have the best self condition clear in the game they’re just one man armies.
If the guy went stealth at any point it was p/d, in which case a pretty cheesy build.
If he was visible the whole time it was p/p, and honestly you shouldn’t die to that, it’s like fighting a ranger without the pet.
1) Elementalist – survibility vs damage is terrible
2) Ranger – unless they spec gs/condition spec theyre just thief/warrior fodder.
3) Necros – They need more mobility skills.
(warriors need toning down…)
Stealth should break on damage.
There’s just very little risk when playing a thief.
When i’m roaming I feel 100x safer on a thief than my ele or engi.
Lets be honest here, it’s not stealth, it’s invisibility of certain durations and just way too easy to come by considering how potent it is.
Instant eh!
Can you imagine what it’s like to be a class with half yous hp, and half your toughness with less damage and have your heals also involve a cast time!
Ludicrous eh!!
The reason warriors and guardians are pretty much the dominant class in WvW is survivability/ability to output damage + ease of use. Not many other classes combine this very well.
I’ve played all but the ranger in WvW at 80 in good gear.
From easiest to hardest to do well with(imho):
1) Warrior
2) Guardian
3) Mesmer
4) Thief
5) Necro
6) Engineer
7) Elementalist
I’m playing the ele as a WvW main now, simply because it’s the most fun, but very frustrating when a no brain warrior adds into a fight and hits you with an eviscerate for 9k and that’s 2/3 of your health gone after you’ve been dancing around the keyboard for 5 minutes to get the other guy to 4/5.
Warriors and guardians are the path of least resistance. It’s natures law.
People just want an easy class which they can do well with and feel good about themselves whilst not getting 2 shotted by thieves and other dps.
When I go into spvp and play a glass ele and die every 10 seconds to anything which looks my way, then go to my warrior,run zerker setup, don’t die once the whole match whilst being able to kill at will, i’m not thinking:
’I’m amazing!!!! i’m so good at this game!!!’.
I’m really thinking ‘Warriors are ridiculous!, but it’s pretty fun to kill other warriors and thieves, why bother gimping myself playing a challenging class.’
Problem with this is as mentioned, the warrior will just walk away if you keep cheesing him and there’s absolutely nothing you can do to catch up.
Also it’s a slow process, so the chances of someone else joining in the fight are high.
At some point they’ll also pop condition immunity, so that’s at least 8 seconds of not doing damage.
Personally I just hate the condition meta, it’s slow, boring death by small ticks of damage.
I report this twice a day to the bug reports.
It has gotten me killed in WvW more times than I can count.
Not really much time to type /sit or whatever when a thief is chunking 4-5k of my health bar every second.
It’s such a gamebreaking bug WvW pvp wise for elementalists and yet no sign of any fix.
You can generally tell if someone says ‘I think all classes are pretty much balanced’ it means they’re playing a warrior.
There is absolutely no chance of an ele melting a warrior ‘before he gets close’.
Unless it’s a level 5 warrior in WvW against an 80 ele……
To get any sort of decent damage an ele would have to be sitting at 10-12 k hp and 0 toughness, which as you can imagine doesn’t last long in any sort of situation.
People still defending warriors?
It’s easiest class to play in pvp by far, best survivability, amazing spike damage, amazing mobility. It towers above anything else.
I can’t believe I used to play one so much in pvp and thought I was pretty good at this game, this was before the buffs and healing signet changes.
The guy who just said he put out 23k damage and is whining…..you get to put out that sort of damage whilst still retaining 3k armour and 20k hp. An ele can’t even get close to achieving that sort of output, yet to even try would have 12k hp and 1850 armour, with 0 escapes and 0 defensive traits.
This is why there is an issue with warriors at the moment.
The elementalist is a mage class!!!
So we have low health, low armour and highest damage in the game executable from range as everyone knows this is what compensates mages for their frailty.
Ok, so the damage part is clearly going to be introduced at some point in the next few years, but at least Anet got the health/armour bit right.
I tried it. In theory the damage is great. like 20k fire damage on dragons breath.
It would just never reach that sort of level in practice.
You do less damage and die just as quickly as a regular spec.
3 things I would change for the ele.
1) If you make a mage class with low hp/low armour then the trade off is damage = quick+high at range and even higher in melee range due to the higher risk/reward.
Here it’s low hp/low armour same damage as everyone else can achieve. Ranged dps is limited to who stands in the red circles for long enough. This is why eles are bottom of the pile currently. You can’t spec for damage without zerker warriors/thieves tearing you a new one in a few hits, and speccing for survival means you lack any sort of damage.
2) Being forced to spec 30 into arcane for wvw/pvp. It’s pretty much essential due to the ultra long cooldowns on abilities. Really limits any sort of builds. Just remove the atunement switch and have it 9-10 seconds as a standard and put a better stat in that line.
3) Cooldowns. The length of cooldowns for eles is nuts. 45 seconds for firegrab?, utilities with 90 sec cooldowns?. So the only decent bursts are on huge cooldowns, and you’re stuck with some low damage abilities in the meantime, running around trying not to die as a thief is spamming 3-4k heartseekers on you, or hammer warriors are auto attacking you for 2-4k a swing in the meantime i’m happy to break 1k on my dagger auto attack.
There’s no compensation for having low hp/low armour. You didn’t want a holy trinity but as soon as you introduced those stat differences you made it. Except you forgot to give the ele damage associated with that trinity.
You really believe that do you?
Thieves 2 shotting warriors, that right there is where you lose all credibility.
lol, i knew someone would come back with this.
Warriors all assume that every other class has the luxury of speccing all damage, and using food damage buffs because they have base health 20k an 2500 armour withouit even trying
This may come as a suprise, but some of us have to worry about being 2 shot by thieves and zerker warriors
Just now i came up against a warrior and i actually couldn’t move his health bar.
His regen out regenned my damage on my ele.
A completely no skill no brain class. The heal from signet and adrenal health is just way too much in wvw when you can use consumables and buffs from abililties.
30 sec icd for a 1 sec quick buff?
Really?
Any sort of icd at all kills the signets intention. Why would anyone use a signet which gives them 1 sec of quickness which will pretty much randomly effect certain spells.
The warrior signet gives 35 seconds of might, fury and swiftess on a 60 sec cooldown, with constant adrenaline gain as a passive.
vs The ability to reset an atunement every 3 minutes…and 1 second of quickness every 30 seconds…wut?
I honestly think it’s a great way to buff the eles offense and survivability without simplying giving it more hp, or toughness.
Let’s face it, (this is coming from someone who played a thief ), which person do you target first in a fight. If the ele was glassy I knew I could drop him in a single steal/c+d +backstab combo, if he wasn’t glassy, i knew he could never damage me enough before I could drop him. So there was absolutely no reason to not go for them.
After having played an ele for the last few months i’ve noticed absolutely everyone (especially thieves….) will go for me before everyone else. I find that my play mostly consists of trying to run around and merely survive whilst someone else does the damage. It’s basically because everyone knows you’ll probably have low armour and low health. Or (i’m d/d) get in, drop a bit of damage and try and get out asap, hoping my survival tools are off cooldown.
@gokil.
Source?
1 second is too short.
Imagine switching atunements, it fires at that exact moment, taking about 1/4 of a sec to show your new bar, then say you’re hotkeyed and take another 1/4 of a sec to find and press the key.
So now only 1/2 a sec would apply to the skill in a best case scenario.
If you’re a clicker then it may as well not exist.
Quickness isn’t a boon either so no duration effects it.
So in reality it would need to be 1.5-2 seconds to be usable.
60 sec cooldown like warrior signet of rage would be great.
I think you can role through your attunements and once every minute you can do something unpredictable.
Nice
So I can have quickness for 36 seconds?
Did you even think about what you typed?. How exactly would you know when that minute cooldown was going to happen? It would definately be unpredictable, even the ele using it wouldn;t be able to predict when it would go off.
An internal cooldown would make it pretty much useless.
Say it just procced, would you really mentally count for 10 secs, and save the exact ability and atunement line for you to switch in to? Have you really been mentally counting down in your head for that moment when churning earth is up?
If there was an icd all that would happen in reality would you’d just notice an auto attack would be sped up every so often.
Having it switch every atunement isn’t that op’d as basically there’s only a handful of abilities which would benefit, and those are generally on a long cooldown. Dragons tooth never hits anyone anyway, let’s be honest here, 180 radius….
I think it’s a great way to add survivability and some more oomph to damage whilst still maintaining a good skill cap to the ele, not just dumbing it down to warrior level.
It’s obviously a learn to play problem.
It’s clearly your fault you don’t have infinite dodges.
Why did you spec for any damage lol!, that’s made you super weak and that warrior with twice your health will still be hitting you for as much as you hit him.
Why didn’t you spec for mobility, even though your class has no access to it, look at that warrior escape, because he had the foresight to slot in a greatsword. Why didn’t you slot in that weapon which gives you infinite escapes. You don’t have one? Learn to play noob!!
Lol! learn to kite! Never mind the warrior is basically immune to slows/snares thanks to dogged march+melandru+lemongrass.
You have ranged damage, use it!!! Warriors don’t…oh they do? they have aoe effective ranged damage and access to very high single target damage? Well then….dodge noob!
You should be spamming conditions on him……oh….yes…
Well, look. Just because a warrior never has to worry about active healing and you do, it’s clearly your fault for picking your class at creation, why didn’t you pick warrior lol!!! noob!!!
eles have the highest burst damage in the game and can burst / support with the same build because of their attunements. I don’t see a issue with giving eles a few lower cds but a higher base health would be a bad idea.
Where do people get this from.
Eles don’t have the highest burst in the game. That title goes to rifle warriors killshot damage. There’s no higher single target damage in the game.
Also eles can’t burst and support. It’s either/or. If you spec for burst you have about 12k health and 1800 armour total. If you spec for support you have about 2800 attack. See how long you last for in a fight with 1800 armour and 12k health….
I mean common sense must tell you that since eles start off with lowest armour values and lowest hp totals they have to sacrifice something in order to get something?
As i figured you’re a warrior player, so understandably you haven’t any idea about having to give up damage for survivability. This is what happens when you live in warrior world for too long, high damage/high survivability become the norm.
Doesn’t seem op at all really.
Nice step in the right direction of giving eles both some more survivability and defence.
It doesn’t make sense to give warriors high health and high hp considering how much damage/condition removal and mobility they have.
If you’re saying ‘Well, since they’re a warrior they should have high health and armour’, then why can’t I say ‘Since i’m a mage class I should have a greater starting power stat, because I evidently should be doing more damage.’
No one in wvw/pvp can spec zerker on their Ele for obvious reasons, so ele damage is very mediocre.
There just doesn’t seem to be any trade off with certain classes.
Re: thief dodge/cc.
You’re kidding right? On my thief eles are easiest class to kill, with LB rangers 2nd.
As a thief I have so many gap closers and my damage is so big I only need a few hits to put you down on an ele.
Good luck dodging me when im in stealth. What cc are you talking about. I lose conditions as soon as I enter stealth.
Roaming on my ele is 100x harder than on my thief. Mainly because every single class is a danger to an ele and you can’t really pick and choose your fights. My low health and armour on my thief is compensated for by my huge burst. Not on the ele!
Lower skill cooldowns.
Increase damage on abilities to match the fact we have the lowest hp and armour of any class.
I still don’t understand why this is such. We don’t have increased power at creation, so why are other classes given better armour and hp. Everyone has ranged abilities and melee, same as us.
You can’t spec for damage in pvp/wvw as a thief/warrior/anything will drop you in 2 hits, so you end up speccing semi defensively, so end up with poor power values. So basically mediocre damage and mediocre defense.
Of all the classes i’ve tried , ele is honestly in need of a buff. You have to work 10 times as hard with an ele to get the same result as most other classes.
Then we need to do a hell of a lot more physical damage.
You know, since the condition meta is king, if we were the profession that conditions absolutely destroy, then our physical damage would have to be something to die for.
Well how about you have to…i don’t know, bring abilities which cleanse conditions like say…everyone else!
Everyone is susceptible to condition damage but do no where near your damage.
You might even have to use a different healing ability to healing signet, one which clears 3 conditions, or have you used it so long you’ve forgotten what your other heals do?
This is the problem, warriors have become so used to having high hps, high armour, high damage, condition and cc resistance and mobility they’ve completely lost sight of how they compare to everyone else. So any alteration of their abilities to be more in line with everyone else resulst in ‘Well!! if you lower that, i want more of this!’
Really? Saying ele’s put out more damage than warriors?
On paper yes against a target dummy maybe. In WvW /pvp practice, we both know that’s bs. No one puts out any damage if they’re dead.
The warrior abilities, if they remain as they are need some sort of ICD. The elementalist ‘burning fire’ which removes 3 conditions automatically, is not only in a non defensive line, but also has an ICD of 40 seconds.
Cleansing ire is executable every 7 seconds.
As with alot of abilities the warriors ones seem to have no downsides. Yet both classes are effected equally by conditions.
In face eles more so as they only have 50 percent of the warriors hp to deal with them.
Very interesting and i’ve been saying such for a while.
The big mistake in the game came with the lack of holy trinity. They said we’re not going to have tanks/healers/dps etc….but we are going to have heavy armour and higher hps for some classes.
At that exact point they created the trinity. They made the tank class and they gave the tank class dps.
Theoretically they should have given the light armour/low hps class highest ranged dps (the elementalist), but it never occured. Now eles post nerfs are left having low hps, low armour and nothing to really compensate them for it. They can’t spec very glassy as other ‘glass’ classes (warriors) with twice the hps and armour yet having the same damage, will tear through them. With skills like dogged march and near condition immunity, kiting isn’t an option.
Almost every class has gap closers so unless the ele specs defensively (and by doing so ends up with low damage), he’s not going to last very long.
There’s a good reason everyone goes for eles first in combat, and it’s not because they’re worried about what sort of damage they can put out.
Also don’t bring up staff +whirlwind combo, it’s completely situational and in a 5v5 would do nothing.
Strongest class in the game . If you are are pretty poor at mmos/games it’s the class to pick as it’s pretty forgiving.
Be careful though, if you play it for long enough you’ll truly believe it’s you who are super skilled and not just the class you’re playing.
If he can dodge / block / blind your F1 you’re not going to remove – period.
But by you’re argument flipped, if the player is a good warrior, he won’t hit when you can dodge, or attack when you’re blocking, or use his F1 when he’s blinded. No class can keep someone blind, dodge and block all day long.
See, we can argue in circles all day.
True, although really just spirit rangers. It’s a bit of a no brain spec. Much like MM necro.
Takes any sort of actual skill from the game.