Guild Wars 2

Corp Por.1567:

I don’t really care WHAT division my skill puts me in, I just want fun, even, engaging matches. I do not want to continue to steam roll teams or be steam rolled. These are NOT fun matches. I do not want to WAIT for the ladders to ‘balance out’ Winning 500-50 or losing 500-50 isn’t fun for anyone.

If PVP continues like this I’ll just walk and find another game. Over half of the casual pvp’ers in my guild have quit from being steam rolled. (they only made it to emerald last season). No they aren’t ESL material, but in reality, how many of us are? Do they not deserve fun engaging matches? Why do they have to be fodder for the people ‘climbing’ to their destination.

Then play unranked… That’s what it is for… Use it. I don’t understand this mindset of “I MUST play competitive Ranked and be winning in order to play GW2”. There is a place for everyone that never goes away and still adds to reward tracks, just use it. If you absolutely must play Ranked, then team up. You’re in a guild, team up… A little coordination, you shouldn’t lose 20 in a row…

SoPP.7034:

I haven’t had confidence in ANet for some time to manage such things. Part of me hopes that they just drop this ESL pro leagues and focus on making the game better instead of making a small % of people happy.

They just keep shooting themselves in the foot.

This system can work just fine in the future IF they give higher tier players Division bumps in future seasons so we can skip right past this initial turbulence.

jessiestiles.9437:

snip

There may be a few swept up in unfortunate circumstances, but here’s my point. First off, these players got out on that team in the first place because the game saw them at a similar MMR. It’s not like they were placed with people that were significantly lower than their MMR (which can happen in Unranked, when they try to balance the MMRs across team). Secondly, because the old Unranked system tried to balance teams, people get under this assumption that because their win ratio is 50-55% elsewhere that they are at least average players or better. Many players have convinced themselves that they are better than they truly are, and that’s another unfortunate side effect of this new system. Some people are getting a dose of reality but they are the same people who blame the system rather than themselves.

Point is, I think people are over-attributing their losses to the “system”, and are under-attributing their losses to their lack of skill.

And I’m not sure why people get floored by the suggestion, but que up with a couple buddies to get yourself out of the rut you’re in. You have the power to fix the rut if you think you’re just being wronged, que with better players which should help your MMR.

Link.1049:

If you’re not playing Necro, Ranger, Revenant, or Guardian this season then you’re not playing PvP…hence why I’m not playing PvP anymore.

Lol how are you going to throw Guardian, and even Ranger in there and not Elementalist/Scrapper? They’re the top tier Bruiser and Support, respectively.

Jelzouki.4128:

If all the better than average players progress and the less than average are left behindbat the start of the season doesn’t that mean the less than average willbface the new players and each other? Then its only a matter of them increasing there skill level by watching top tier streams or tournaments in order to get better? So this matchmaking actually makes sense then..

It does make sense, but the first week or so until the good players are out of that division it’s hell on poor players. That said, that’s part of competition, and why I urge people to just play Unranked. People like to get their feathers fluffed over it, but I mean… That’s what it’s there for, for people who don’t want the hussle and bustle of Ranked game play and getting thrown around. Maybe a week after Unranked people would get their confidence (and skill?) up a bit and the better players would have moved on, and try again.

The game needs Nerfs, ALMOST globally for elite specs, and a lot of base specs need buffed, mostly in the form of updated weapon skills. For instance, since I play it, DH, while not entirely meta-tier, is pretty good. But the core Guardian weapons are SO outdated and need love.

So really is a mix bag. Only nerfs would mean they would t get around to fixing early stuff which are underperforming and poorly designed (Guardian Sword). At the same time, though, I think I’d agree some shaving of the top faces is more important overall.

Torafugu.1087:

We are not begging for fairness. We are asking for something that remotely resembles functionality.

And in a lot of ways, it does. If within a low division, as people grow out of them, you still struggle super hard to get out of the lowest division, either not enough people have left it yet or you’re just not really cut out for making higher tiers yet. It’s brutal, but that’s how competitive environments work.

About the ONLY legitimate concern I have for people losing a lot is “what happens if you’re in a tail spin on MMR?” But I think people are grossly over-attributing how their loss of MMR affects their performance. I think there is a lot of personal growth requires and more than ever, it’s becoming very obvious to people that they aren’t as good as they thought due to the Unranked system trying to create “fair” match ups.

I hate to say it, but there are just some really bad people trying to push through this “Ranked” gameplay that aren’t cut out for it. Last night, last tier of Emerald that pushed me into Sapphire, a team mate DCed over and over, couldn’t stay on. We won 500-150 4v5, and was camping them at their base… I felt sort of had for them, but at the same time, I just don’t see them being in higher divisions. I think some people would have more fun if they just cut their losses and played in Unranked so they can have their performance off-set a bit.

Forum bug….

Just some balance quirks with Scrapper, Herald, Reaper and Tempest (Support). I wouldn’t even say “most classes” since it’s only a few primary builds causing significant issues.

The “fairness” is that you are paired with people closely represented as equal to you. That way, no one is being carried and no one is having to carry a team to be effective. Then you face other people with a team roughly as good as them, as long as they’ve reached roughly a similar division. As far as ranked goes, that’s entirely fair. People should be paired with similarly skilled players so their growth reflects their abilities, as it is a shares potential within the group.

What I don’t understand, still, is why everyone is basically begging for Ranked gameplay to basically be Unranked with more rewards…. If you’re not a competitive player and your main goal is to have a balanced match, then just do Unranked? Either you put in a little more effort for ranked, or skip the effort and play on a comfortable playing field, and just play Unranked. It still exists…

How can you have no interest in the Immortal weapons? They’re so beautiful, and they are life.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Not having read through all those posts; why is MMR not solely based on personal performance, not taking losses/wins into account or at a smaller degree? I guess it would be really difficult (if even possible) to get such a system working properly, but it would be so much better.

Because Wins/Loses generally have more to do with your skill than the match point system.

Malediktus.9250:

ronpierce.2760:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

fishball.7204:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Zuko.7132:

will cause many of the new, average, and bad players to just give up before matchmaking becomes balance again. Call it quits and go home.

we don’t need such players.

true pvp players will rise out of the ashes of defeat and emerge victorious.

failure is the mother of success after all.

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic but every game mode needs new blood or it just dies a slow death. Taking WvW as an example, not having new pugs/guilds/players drains the playerbase as hardcore/vets move on, the same will happen in PvP.

There aren’t even enough players/teams for those ESL weekly matches, the last thing PvP needs is a ‘we dont need those players’ mentality.

you need “real” new blood and not cry babies.

That’s the problem here. “Ranked” is just another farming spot, now. People don’t want it to be ranked, they want to be able to farm pips at a nice steady rate until they’re Legends just like everyone else. And ANet did it to themselves by saying the Legendary back pack is for everyone, now everyone thinks it should be easy to rise through the Ranked gameplay.

At this point, Unranked has pretty much no use, because everything thinks they’re “ranked worthy”, or at least, should be, and no one understand that in order for anything “ranked” to work there has to be winners and there has to be losers, and some of them lose hard. Not everyone is or needs to be cut out for Ranked, but because it is essentially just a glorified reward track to a lot of people, they feel that they’re entitled to gain a Division or two in a few days, regardless of the fact that the Season lasts until April, which should be VERY easy to hit Sapphire/Ruby by then. Not everyone will be Legend… that’s okay. It’s not meant to be knocked out in a week, and in some cases, at all if you’re not a good player. And that’s okay.

Ranked just means that your gameplay gets evaluated and ranked. It does not mean that average players cannot take part. Everyone is “ranked worthy”.

Yes, to some extent. But that doesn’t mean very low or even below-average deserve the highest divisions. Nor does it mean they should be even Ruby in a week. Seasons last well over a month.

The old way was far worse, in which poor players got carried and better players got held back all in the sake of a “fair game”. Fair games are for unranked. In ranked, players deserve to be able to rely on their team mates as well as they can be relied on themselves. That’s fair as far as competition goes.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

fishball.7204:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Zuko.7132:

will cause many of the new, average, and bad players to just give up before matchmaking becomes balance again. Call it quits and go home.

we don’t need such players.

true pvp players will rise out of the ashes of defeat and emerge victorious.

failure is the mother of success after all.

Not sure if you’re being sarcastic but every game mode needs new blood or it just dies a slow death. Taking WvW as an example, not having new pugs/guilds/players drains the playerbase as hardcore/vets move on, the same will happen in PvP.

There aren’t even enough players/teams for those ESL weekly matches, the last thing PvP needs is a ‘we dont need those players’ mentality.

you need “real” new blood and not cry babies.

That’s the problem here. “Ranked” is just another farming spot, now. People don’t want it to be ranked, they want to be able to farm pips at a nice steady rate until they’re Legends just like everyone else. And ANet did it to themselves by saying the Legendary back pack is for everyone, now everyone thinks it should be easy to rise through the Ranked gameplay.

At this point, Unranked has pretty much no use, because everything thinks they’re “ranked worthy”, or at least, should be, and no one understand that in order for anything “ranked” to work there has to be winners and there has to be losers, and some of them lose hard. Not everyone is or needs to be cut out for Ranked, but because it is essentially just a glorified reward track to a lot of people, they feel that they’re entitled to gain a Division or two in a few days, regardless of the fact that the Season lasts until April, which should be VERY easy to hit Sapphire/Ruby by then. Not everyone will be Legend… that’s okay. It’s not meant to be knocked out in a week, and in some cases, at all if you’re not a good player. And that’s okay.

morrolan.9608:

ronpierce.2760:

Losing 15 times in a row would be “wrong” if the system was built to be fair (Unranked). Losing 15 times in a row means nothing in a system designed to be competitive. Get a team that’s even somewhat good, and you should not have that issue.

The system isn’t designed to be competitive though.

It’s designed to be competitive, it’s not designed for 100% fair competition between each match, but that’s not how a division based competition can be designed. MMR match making like Unranked uses is an unfair way to group people because that supports people either being carried or weighed down by their own team mates. People should be paired it equally skilled players on their team. In no way should it be mandatory that skill levels between the teams competing be the same. Better teams work out of a division to higher divisions. Lower tier players end up in lower tiers longer. That’s just how it works.

The larger issue, as I said before, which should probably Elbe addressed in S3, is what do you do with previous Hogh Division players? Do you repeat the problem by putting them in Amber, or do you allow previous-rank-based boosters so that higher tier players start out above Ambers and Emeralds, expediting the higher tier players to face other higher tier players and leaving note of the lower tier players to play among at themselves and duke it out.

Laraley.7695:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Firebird Gomer.9563:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

The point your missing is that for many people Ranked is the only way for people to get a Legendary backpiece. So if Ranked isnt for everyone why “AGAIN” did Anet put it behind the League matches.

Nope the point that is missing is that fair games do not purposely match higher skills players against low skilled one. (Which is our current system). True, ranked is supposed to be competitive but where is the challenge when you constantly match good players against bad ones?? Wouldn’t a mix of good and bad players be more competitve than having good players on one side and bad on the other???

Competition is to weed out the bad and push forward the best, not Face the best against the best and the worst against the worst ending up with a High-Division comprised partly of the top portion of good players and partly of the top portion of bad players. That’s what ends up happening when you try to “even” team MMR. Bad people get carried up and good players end up getting held down. That’s not competition, that’s how Unranked works, and SHOULD work, as that is the “fair” platform. Ranked is not and shout not be the “fair” platform, as far as getting to legendary.

And anyone who puts the time and effort into it should be able to at least hit sapphire, regardless of skill level.

Wait, if competition is to weed out the bad and push the best forward. Then why is the system setting best against bad? So,the best have to be teamed with other best to get segregated from the bad?? Is that what you are saying?

No, the reason this happens NOW is because they’re trying to push higher MMR out of lower Divisions quicker. It sucks now, but given more time as players hit Ruby/Diamond, the lower tiers will actually look more like that, worse players versus worse players, and the best will be all facing eachother in Diamond.

The problem is that everyone starts at the bottom, so it causes a lot of unfair competition, but the only real way to eliminate that is to give higher tier players early-season Boosters (which has been discussed already somewhat).

Right now, yes, it’s bad. But as more and more players fight out of the low tiers, the low tiers become comprised of a lower quality player pool overall and fewer higher tier players.

Now, the other thing is; there is always bottom barrel. Those people will have to realize Ranked just maybe isn’t for them… But yes, ANYONE can get Sapphire with enough time. That time has yet to be spent. I didn’t say anyone could hit sapphire in a day, I said anyone who spends the time should be able to hit Sapphire by the end of the season if they try hard enough. That’s the simple nature of not being able to lose pips early on, and tiers later.

You do realize that not all high MMR players are getting push outer lower tier apace right? The fallacy of your paragraph is that you don’t realize that even at High elo best player will be group together against not so best player. Instead of your skills,the system is segregating people into divisions. Idk how you are enjoying such a system.

And anyone who put the time will get in ruby. Anyways, all I am saying is that there is a better way to do it. Losing 15 or winning 15 games in row is just WRONG dude. It’s doesn’t matter how skilled someone is, you can’t have one sided winning it all and the other losing it all. If it was based on luck alone, I would have no problem but in this case the system is unfairly favoring one side over the other.

Losing 15 times in a row would be “wrong” if the system was built to be fair (Unranked). Losing 15 times in a row means nothing in a system designed to be competitive. Get a team that’s even somewhat good, and you should not have that issue.

I wonder what you’re gonna do once most soloq players quit the game and you’ll have insanely long queue times. Getting a team should not be a solution to a poorly implemented system.

Getting a team should not be the answer to how to get better and go further in “Rated” pvp… Come on now… Why do you people even want competition at all… Just put quarters in a machine and get something from a slot machine.

I do sympathize with the few who unfortunately got tanked rating, but I’m betting that’s less than people think. I think more so, this just showed where people really were as far as MMR goes, now that no one is being teamed with them to carry their slack, in more cases than not.

Fivedawgs.4267:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Firebird Gomer.9563:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

The point your missing is that for many people Ranked is the only way for people to get a Legendary backpiece. So if Ranked isnt for everyone why “AGAIN” did Anet put it behind the League matches.

Nope the point that is missing is that fair games do not purposely match higher skills players against low skilled one. (Which is our current system). True, ranked is supposed to be competitive but where is the challenge when you constantly match good players against bad ones?? Wouldn’t a mix of good and bad players be more competitve than having good players on one side and bad on the other???

Competition is to weed out the bad and push forward the best, not Face the best against the best and the worst against the worst ending up with a High-Division comprised partly of the top portion of good players and partly of the top portion of bad players. That’s what ends up happening when you try to “even” team MMR. Bad people get carried up and good players end up getting held down. That’s not competition, that’s how Unranked works, and SHOULD work, as that is the “fair” platform. Ranked is not and shout not be the “fair” platform, as far as getting to legendary.

And anyone who puts the time and effort into it should be able to at least hit sapphire, regardless of skill level.

Wait, if competition is to weed out the bad and push the best forward. Then why is the system setting best against bad? So,the best have to be teamed with other best to get segregated from the bad?? Is that what you are saying?

No, the reason this happens NOW is because they’re trying to push higher MMR out of lower Divisions quicker. It sucks now, but given more time as players hit Ruby/Diamond, the lower tiers will actually look more like that, worse players versus worse players, and the best will be all facing eachother in Diamond.

The problem is that everyone starts at the bottom, so it causes a lot of unfair competition, but the only real way to eliminate that is to give higher tier players early-season Boosters (which has been discussed already somewhat).

Right now, yes, it’s bad. But as more and more players fight out of the low tiers, the low tiers become comprised of a lower quality player pool overall and fewer higher tier players.

Now, the other thing is; there is always bottom barrel. Those people will have to realize Ranked just maybe isn’t for them… But yes, ANYONE can get Sapphire with enough time. That time has yet to be spent. I didn’t say anyone could hit sapphire in a day, I said anyone who spends the time should be able to hit Sapphire by the end of the season if they try hard enough. That’s the simple nature of not being able to lose pips early on, and tiers later.

You do realize that not all high MMR players are getting push outer lower tier apace right? The fallacy of your paragraph is that you don’t realize that even at High elo best player will be group together against not so best player. Instead of your skills,the system is segregating people into divisions. Idk how you are enjoying such a system.

And anyone who put the time will get in ruby. Anyways, all I am saying is that there is a better way to do it. Losing 15 or winning 15 games in row is just WRONG dude. It’s doesn’t matter how skilled someone is, you can’t have one sided winning it all and the other losing it all. If it was based on luck alone, I would have no problem but in this case the system is unfairly favoring one side over the other.

Losing 15 times in a row would be “wrong” if the system was built to be fair (Unranked). Losing 15 times in a row means nothing in a system designed to be competitive. Get a team that’s even somewhat good, and you should not have that issue.

Warlord.9074:

People keep saying anet delivered what people asked for, but people never asked for the system to work like this. People asked for competitive matches and not to be paired with bad players on their team.

That happens as divisions flesh out. They could make Season 3 players start with their Season 2 division -2, that’d be one way to handle the situation. But then you have to wonder how to handle rewards and people kitten over people getting a free bump.

The real answer is; Anet can’t win.

Only way they could make this fair is force 5v5 premades, but people don’t want that either.

Fivedawgs.4267:

ronpierce.2760:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Firebird Gomer.9563:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

The point your missing is that for many people Ranked is the only way for people to get a Legendary backpiece. So if Ranked isnt for everyone why “AGAIN” did Anet put it behind the League matches.

Nope the point that is missing is that fair games do not purposely match higher skills players against low skilled one. (Which is our current system). True, ranked is supposed to be competitive but where is the challenge when you constantly match good players against bad ones?? Wouldn’t a mix of good and bad players be more competitve than having good players on one side and bad on the other???

Competition is to weed out the bad and push forward the best, not Face the best against the best and the worst against the worst ending up with a High-Division comprised partly of the top portion of good players and partly of the top portion of bad players. That’s what ends up happening when you try to “even” team MMR. Bad people get carried up and good players end up getting held down. That’s not competition, that’s how Unranked works, and SHOULD work, as that is the “fair” platform. Ranked is not and shout not be the “fair” platform, as far as getting to legendary.

And anyone who puts the time and effort into it should be able to at least hit sapphire, regardless of skill level.

Wait, if competition is to weed out the bad and push the best forward. Then why is the system setting best against bad? So,the best have to be teamed with other best to get segregated from the bad?? Is that what you are saying?

No, the reason this happens NOW is because they’re trying to push higher MMR out of lower Divisions quicker. It sucks now, but given more time as players hit Ruby/Diamond, the lower tiers will actually look more like that, worse players versus worse players, and the best will be all facing eachother in Diamond.

The problem is that everyone starts at the bottom, so it causes a lot of unfair competition, but the only real way to eliminate that is to give higher tier players early-season Boosters (which has been discussed already somewhat).

Right now, yes, it’s bad. But as more and more players fight out of the low tiers, the low tiers become comprised of a lower quality player pool overall and fewer higher tier players.

Now, the other thing is; there is always bottom barrel. Those people will have to realize Ranked just maybe isn’t for them… But yes, ANYONE can get Sapphire with enough time. That time has yet to be spent. I didn’t say anyone could hit sapphire in a day, I said anyone who spends the time should be able to hit Sapphire by the end of the season if they try hard enough. That’s the simple nature of not being able to lose pips early on, and tiers later.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Firebird Gomer.9563:

ronpierce.2760:

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

The point your missing is that for many people Ranked is the only way for people to get a Legendary backpiece. So if Ranked isnt for everyone why “AGAIN” did Anet put it behind the League matches.

Nope the point that is missing is that fair games do not purposely match higher skills players against low skilled one. (Which is our current system). True, ranked is supposed to be competitive but where is the challenge when you constantly match good players against bad ones?? Wouldn’t a mix of good and bad players be more competitve than having good players on one side and bad on the other???

Competition is to weed out the bad and push forward the best, not Face the best against the best and the worst against the worst ending up with a High-Division comprised partly of the top portion of good players and partly of the top portion of bad players. That’s what ends up happening when you try to “even” team MMR. Bad people get carried up and good players end up getting held down. That’s not competition, that’s how Unranked works, and SHOULD work, as that is the “fair” platform. Ranked is not and shout not be the “fair” platform, as far as getting to legendary.

And anyone who puts the time and effort into it should be able to at least hit sapphire, regardless of skill level.

I have a few questions.
1. Does unranked still use the old MMR method, where teams are attempted to be balanced?
2. Does unranked MMR gains and losses share with Ranked?

The reason I ask this is, if the above are both true, first off, people need to get out of the mindset that “Ranked” is for everyone. Everyone is welcome to apply, but not everyone will be effective in a highly competitive arena. That’s FINE. There is no reason to hand-hold people in Ranked, that’s what Unranked even exists for. People who want 100% fair matches, remember unranked exists. It may suck to hear, but Ranked simply isn’t a reward track and isn’t intended to be. It is a competition, and as such, it wouldn’t be a competition if everyone won or if it was divided up into baby, medium and high tier (which is effectively what averaging MMR does), because it becomes unfair for the higher tier players who have to fight only higher tier players while lower tier players rise in ranks by fighting other bad players.

I don’t want to come off as rude, but I think people are really watering down what the point of having an “Unranked” and a “Ranked” even is. By no means should anyone feel like they are entitled to do well in Ranked, nor should all apply. If you wish to try to get a few ranks out of it for some rewards, by all means, but I don’t think anyone should EXPECT anything from competition.

To my second question, if they ARE indeed shared, maybe build up your MMR by practicing and getting better in Unranked and try making a static team before shooting for Ranked play. (And if not, perhaps they should be.)

I don’t think people realize how “Ranked” works. People your skill level should be on your team. Avoiding higher tier players through Diamond was unfair to skilled players who had to compete with the top players, while lesser players just had to compete with other lower tier players.

Maybe people should just gamer around to realizing ranked play isn’t for everyone, so long as unranked still pairs people up on both sides to balance MMR. Ranked should keep like skill players together and divisions should eventually reflect skill level as people rise in ranks.

Crapgame.6519:

ronpierce.2760:

and I’m sure Revenants and Scrappers will have their time to get nerfs too.

Sure, just not as quick. That is the frustration with most players of Rangers and/or Druids.

I can’t argue with that. I was just as surprised as anyone to see nothing on Revenant/Scrapper in that patch. I assume it’s because Reaper and Scrapper was easy to fix, Revenant and Scrapper’s problems are due to a powerful mixed bag, so handling it needs to be done with more finesse. Of course, the sooner the better.

Fists are my favorite of the commonly asked weapons (Fists, polearms, great axes, crossbows). Not because of what they are, technically Polearms are my favorite, but I feel like they would add the most unique twist to combat with a twin pair of close quarter fast weapons with wide arcs. Unlike daggers, I feel they have more ways to be utilized and can be used for AoE or single target. Some really cool things could be done with them.

Definitely Thief, Warrior, Guardian (could be a unique way to bring a monk to the game using Fists more for support than other classes). Then maybe even Ele/Mesmer/Revenant could have some interesting ways to twist them.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

ronpierce.2760:

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

ronpierce.2760:

Let me explain real fast why this happens. It is not technically a bug. WoR is a mobility skill. As such, when interrupted all mobility skills go on full cooldown to avoid cancel-exploiting mobility. With Shield of Courage, it is a CC break when traited (the base acting like the traited version is either lazy or a bug). All CC breaks go on full cooldown when interrupted.

As such, SoC needs to just be instant since it is already 1/4 cast anyways. This would fix a lot of the unnecessary issues. Alternatively, fix the base version and make only the traited version instant.

Wings of Resolve is a bit different. How it could be fixed is having the heal and condition removal (if traited) happen on use, which would be a HUGE boon to the skill, and not require an evade.

Also, another bug to be aware of: WoR does not remove immobilize apllied by roots (runes of the grove/ ancient seeds/ Entangle).

If they were to lower the base heal of wings slightly then give it an evade it would be fine. As is it already heals for quite a bit and has excellent scaling.

Your completely right on courage.

It would also be very very very nice if they would update and do some work on core guardian virtues while their at it as they are complete crap compared to DH ones.

I feel like there was a misunderstanding. I didn’t want to change the heal on Wings. The only thing is that the heal and removal could be at the beginning of the cast. This would be good for the skill for several reasons. First, it wouldn’t really need an evade, and I’m not sure an evade is totally justified. It’s a good skill already. But if the heal and removal was at the front it wouldn’t punish you for wanting to leap further rather than closer in terms of needing to remove conditions immediately (such as Torment, which currently, wings of resolve causes you to take more torment damage before it removes the condition).

Then, if interrupted, it’s okay because it already did the major effects.

If the heal were at the start though the leap would be kind of useless for helping allies.

Possibly. May just be used differently, but I see your point.

I guess they could make it an evade, that would technically be another way to solve it. I do tend to worry about adding evades to skills though.

Regardless, SOMETHING needs to happen, though, because full cooldowns on vital core abilities is simply not working out, especially Shield of Courage, which is simply too long of a cooldown for that sort of thing to happen. Specifically because the 1/4 cast even seem arbitrary and gets interrupted due to sheer luck.

Stochastic.1398:

Is scrapper not the most blatantly overpowered build currently? In terms of stupidly OP I don’t think anything else currently reaches scrappers level of bullkitten.

Seems to be Reapers, Heralds and Scrappers at the moment, in no particular order, and Tempest as über support. All of these need toned down a bit still.

The problem is: Scrapper and Herald are both a mess in terms of what should be changed and what is okay. I’m not sure there is a “simple” answer to them, which is why I think they haven’t been touched yet.

Druid and Reaper were easy, pet damage and Chill (chill still being a problem, but it did get a little nerf). Tempest sustain is too kitten high, not sure why it wasn’t touched yet.

Scrapper has so many sources of sustain that it’s not an easy call on which parts to shave and by how much each, and what to do with Hammer so it doesn’t do so much damage and provide too much defense. It may require more than simple tweaks, and I’m not sure they’re ready to do that.

Revenant/Herald is a real mess with 60% of the weapons/legends (skills in general) being practically useless with a few poorly designed Legends and Weapons that make them deal damage far too easily and have too much sustain. Sword is a hot mess alone. So again, needs much larger change overall.

It’s condensed into Shout Tempest.

Playing on my Dragon Hunter I discovered a strange bug. Immobilizes specifically applied from Roots (ancient seeds, entangle, and Runes of the Grove) are not removed when you use Wings of Resolve, which specifies that it removes Immobilize at the beginning of the cast.

I’ve done thorough testing, it is able to be replicated 100% of the time, and I ensured myself and others through several tests that it’s not the case of the root being re-applied, it just simply does not attempt to remove the immobilize.

My question is: Why and in what ways are Root-applied Immobilizes different in such a way that could cause this issue?

Secondly, I’m not sure if it’s a Wings of Resolve issue or a core issue with the Immobilize applied. Other classes with “remove immobilize” should test this bug. For instance, if Warrior traited mobility skills remove immobilize from roots. I have confirmed that Riposting Shadows removes the immobilize as intended which made the situation a bit more complex.

Note: Wings of Resolve traited condition removal will remove the immobilize, so general condition removal affects it, it seems to only be the portion of the skill that specifies the specific Immobilize condition removal that does not work on it. When you use Wings of Resolve when immobilized by a Root, you will simply leap in place and land where you started.

psizone.8437:

Quick, cry in the Warrior forums, Gunblaze hits too hard! A class mechanics can’t be one shotting zerker Thieves!

Same for Mesmer Shatters, if all clones hit then everything dies! What were they thinking about?! They can use it at range and still go dodge and run whilst they fight!

Bleh, nerfs like these annoy me. Pets are our kitten class mechanic, why the hell aren’t they allowed to hit for a large amount on a cooldown? Nevermind the fact that Bristlebacks F2 was completely avoidable.

It’s pretty simple. Pets scale off of their own stats, leading to unusually high burst from very tanky players. It still hits hard, just not AS hard. That has always been an interesting perk, yet, problem with ranger as a whole and a large part of what makes balancing them so difficult. Some have suggested having pets scale from the Ranger’s stats, but I think most would find that it would have more of a negative impact on pets than positive. Even now, it’s bar better than base pets, so you’re not really at a loss.

Frankly, I’d consider yourselves lucky, and I’m sure Revenants and Scrappers will have their time to get nerfs too.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

ronpierce.2760:

Let me explain real fast why this happens. It is not technically a bug. WoR is a mobility skill. As such, when interrupted all mobility skills go on full cooldown to avoid cancel-exploiting mobility. With Shield of Courage, it is a CC break when traited (the base acting like the traited version is either lazy or a bug). All CC breaks go on full cooldown when interrupted.

As such, SoC needs to just be instant since it is already 1/4 cast anyways. This would fix a lot of the unnecessary issues. Alternatively, fix the base version and make only the traited version instant.

Wings of Resolve is a bit different. How it could be fixed is having the heal and condition removal (if traited) happen on use, which would be a HUGE boon to the skill, and not require an evade.

Also, another bug to be aware of: WoR does not remove immobilize apllied by roots (runes of the grove/ ancient seeds/ Entangle).

If they were to lower the base heal of wings slightly then give it an evade it would be fine. As is it already heals for quite a bit and has excellent scaling.

Your completely right on courage.

It would also be very very very nice if they would update and do some work on core guardian virtues while their at it as they are complete crap compared to DH ones.

I feel like there was a misunderstanding. I didn’t want to change the heal on Wings. The only thing is that the heal and removal could be at the beginning of the cast. This would be good for the skill for several reasons. First, it wouldn’t really need an evade, and I’m not sure an evade is totally justified. It’s a good skill already. But if the heal and removal was at the front it wouldn’t punish you for wanting to leap further rather than closer in terms of needing to remove conditions immediately (such as Torment, which currently, wings of resolve causes you to take more torment damage before it removes the condition).

Then, if interrupted, it’s okay because it already did the major effects.

Mikau.6920:

I believe that the shield is meant to be a support weapon to Guardain class. Right now, I feel this weapon is ok how it is.

The real problem is the trait, it is awful. The buff was meaningless, just look at all shield traits (warrior, engie and revenant) and you’ll know how bad it is. The revenant trait is GM, but engie and warrior are adept, so no reason to be that bad. They should add 2 seconds of resistence (or other boon) to you and allies when you cast an shield ability intead of the extra toughness (this weapon is meant to be supportive, not selfish).

I agree. Though because it is a channel, I liked the suggestion above, maybe altered a bit.
Such as:
Shield abilities gain additional benefits.

Shield 4: also grants a single stability to allies in addition to the protection and aegis. (Maybe make the base boobs 5 seconds instead of 4, nothing to do with the trait).

Shield 5: While channeling allies within the bubble recieve 33% reduced damage and reduced duration of conditions applied to them.

Very supporty, and not just basic boons and encourages holding up the shield Absorption. It’s strong enough to be impactful and only a 20% uptime if you hold the channel.

Let me explain real fast why this happens. It is not technically a bug. WoR is a mobility skill. As such, when interrupted all mobility skills go on full cooldown to avoid cancel-exploiting mobility. With Shield of Courage, it is a CC break when traited (the base acting like the traited version is either lazy or a bug). All CC breaks go on full cooldown when interrupted.

As such, SoC needs to just be instant since it is already 1/4 cast anyways. This would fix a lot of the unnecessary issues. Alternatively, fix the base version and make only the traited version instant.

Wings of Resolve is a bit different. How it could be fixed is having the heal and condition removal (if traited) happen on use, which would be a HUGE boon to the skill, and not require an evade.

Also, another bug to be aware of: WoR does not remove immobilize apllied by roots (runes of the grove/ ancient seeds/ Entangle).

Arcaedus.7290:

ronpierce.2760:

Hello everyone, I had a question about shield and community preferences, and wanted to strike up a discussion. I’m mostly speaking about Shield #5. I’ve seen some say they’d prefer if it had a personal block element attached to it (be it for improving bunker guardian, giving Guardians better escapes, or what have you as the meta has shifted and abilities have generally gotten stronger). So my questions are:

1. As a Guardian/DH, do you think Shield 5 should also sport a personal block in addition to the team-projectile absorb?

2a. If No, why specifically?

2b. If Yes, in what ways would you change it to be “fair”?

1. No, shield is in a good spot for now.

2a. While I do like your proposed change quite a bit, our “block” for shield is given through shield 4. True, it doesn’t block nearly as much as other shield skills out there, but it is a team-oriented weapon (and team oriented skill) whereas most other shields are not. Additionally, I like that our shield block is given through aegis which is very symbolic of the guardian, and synergizes with traits. For personal defence, we already have focus.

I think a better change would be for us to change the master-tier trait for shield. Instead of adding toughness (which is redundant), the trait should improve the functionality of our shield 5. Since our shield is designed to be a team-support weapon, I think there should be more benefit to keeping the dome up. So the trait could be something like this:

Allies affected by Shield of Absorption have the damage dealt to them and the duration of conditions applied to them reduced:
-Damage reduction: 25%
-Condition duration reduction: -66% (does not affect conditions already on you)
Shield Recharges reduced by 20%

And good suggestion. The change to make SoA a team wide damage dampener would certainly be an interesting take. I like that a lot, actually.

Indure.5410:

I feel like this change would just make shield 5 an alternative version of Shield of Courage and add a 3s time-to-live to Guardian, but otherwise not really add the long term survivability you mentioned. The projectile absorption on shield 5 already adds the running away potential you spoke of.

It’s not going to happen, but a ground targeted Flashing Blade or Judge’s Intervention would be a better way to achieve the escape you are looking for.

I don’t know how it would work exactly, but I think it would be cool if Light’s Judgment was replaced with a teleporting decoy trap similar to Necro’s Flesh Worm.

That’s another consideration I had, actually. I’m not sure if I posted it on the forums or just when discussing with other Guardian pvp friends of mine, but seeing as how Sword is in a bit of a pinch, another consideration might be Sword #2 being a “forward Phase Retreat” of you will, in terms of forward mobility without a target. This means it could go up hills (as it already can) but without a target. I’d actually probably prefer that, but that would require them to lose. Their grip on the “low mobility” stance that they seem to have taken with Guardians.

lighter.2708:

DeWolfe.2174:

To be honest, I don’t know why there isn’t more rage over “Spear of Justice” being unblockable? An unblockable pull on a 15sec CD is nuts.

the pull is 40 second CD

The more you know. :P

Indure.5410:

By personal block do you mean ~3s of almost invulnerability, or are you referring to a single aegis proc?

The idea here would be to have it a longer cooldown block, but an actual block for sustaining itself on point or a non-niche block for leaving a fight (unlike courage which has a back-side weakness and isn’t exactly for running away).

two thoughts go into this, specifically on the bunker side of the discussion, which has been discussed before:
1. We have a lot of up-front defense, but once we’re out of cooldowns we tend to lose effectiveness compared to Eles and Druid.
2. The problem may not be sustainable defense at all, and be a factor of outdated support mechanics and lack of overall healing (another aspect of Druid/Tempest).

I know it may be controversial, and some think shield is more “okay” that it was, but from my perspective, Guardians in the meta have limited escapes compared to other high-tier builds, especially due to the nature of our main blocks we currently run (one is exploitable from behind, the other breaks in a limited amount of hits and doesn’t help against focus fire).

Secondly, our support and defensive builds have fallen by the wayside because our prolonged sustain outside of very long cooldowns doesn’t keep up running. Granted our heal is pretty good (the trap), we can clutch from death but have less to sustain ourself under focus.

The other thing is, in order to take advantage of the extra courage block and Invuln (which is t bad, don’t get me wrong) you also give up Maw which reduces your overall pressure for team fights fairly significantly.

Maybe this isn’t the right change, I’m just trying to get a feel for what other Guardians think, but I just felt this would be one way to address the issue of the general lack of Shield usage outside of niche builds, help with team fight weaving and sustainability under focus fire.

Hello everyone, I had a question about shield and community preferences, and wanted to strike up a discussion. I’m mostly speaking about Shield #5. I’ve seen some say they’d prefer if it had a personal block element attached to it (be it for improving bunker guardian, giving Guardians better escapes, or what have you as the meta has shifted and abilities have generally gotten stronger). So my questions are:

1. As a Guardian/DH, do you think Shield 5 should also sport a personal block in addition to the team-projectile absorb?

2a. If No, why specifically?

2b. If Yes, in what ways would you change it to be “fair”?

Considerations:
- Shield Stance and Crystal Hibernation are 25 second cooldowns and 3 second blocks. Currently Absorption has a 24 second base cooldown and lasts 4 seconds.

- Shield stance is mobile with no other benefits and Crystal Hibernation has a heal component similar to the flip skill, but is immobile. Neither has a push-back, but Warrior’s can be traited for Reflection, which is pretty strong.

- Having a personal block on this ability would benefit the dying Bunker Guardian, make it more viable to spend the time to support allies (rather than getting melee’d down and having to cancel it), and aids in our questionable ability to escape and/or weave from fights, especially when running directly away.

- What sets this apart from Focus remains the blind/condition removal, as well as the non-channeled instant activation of Focus 5, which is used for revivals/stomps/channels, which Shield 5 would not be able to do.

Personal thoughts:
I do personally feel like it would be nice to have an element of personal block with it, without removing the vital parts that make the skill unique.

How I would do it, personally:
Increase the cooldown base to 30-32 seconds (since it’d be a stronger skill with a block), and remove the light field, while reducing the total channel time to 2 1/2 – 3 seconds. Now would knock-back enemies on use, and still absorb projectiles for team mates, but provide a personal block as well.

This way, its on a longer cooldown than most other blocks, but still sports the AOE knockback and team absorption.

Notes: May be slightly over-budget in this iteration, I’m not sure, cooldown increases can go a long way, though.

Feel free to openly discuss, but keep it peaceful. I’m here to discuss pros and cons and general thoughts. I don’t think we have to worry about anything changing too soon.

Well, I know it’s not exploitation. Many people getting massive win streaks (including myself) are, for the most part, decent players and a lot of which are solo-quing. It’s hard to exploit a solo-que.

kreven.6017:

I play a zerk sd teef and am critting these clickers necros 600 either buff me or nerf them a zerk teef is not supposed to be hitting 600 to a class that can basically condi blast me and still be sustainable

Uh, did they happen to have “Rise!” up? Sounds like a scenario of not being knowledgeable enough…

Jak Shadow.2864:

On my alt account however I am golden. Just shows it is all about the player doesn’t it……

For all you winners out there

Proof thief OP, more like it.

Please yes. Every single one of my yeses. I get sick of jamming 1, and autos can’t be trusted to work on their own.

I don’t want LB5 to change. I personally feel it’s one of the few unique things Guardian really bring to tpvp in large team fights that can really set them apart from anyone else. I’d be very sore to see it turned into an Immobilize… (To he who suggested it.)

As for True Shot damage/recharge. Maybe… But if the damage is nerfed too much, standing still to cast it loses value. As it stands, reflects are heavy and we can be easily out sustained by many classes, so I’m not really sure it’s necessary anymore unless a lot of other classes get sweeping damage reductions and/or sustain reductions.

I hardly see LB as a problem and enjoy using it (more than I can say about most of our other current weapons).

I think what could help a bit with DH issues is if they reduced trap set time. Give “Test of Faith” (a note able clutch interrupt) a 1.5 second daze on trigger and changed the Trap trait to instead allow the trap boons to be shared around it as well. That way there is less constant dazing being thrown about, more team synergy and a better daze when we specifically need it.

I think that would fix a big part of the problem with the Daze spam that doesn’t totally seem necessary and is a bit out of place even.

In addition to that, though it may be a bit more controversial, reducing trap cooldowns but incurring the Cooldown when it triggers is another option, and giving traps a “Flip” skill that deactivates the trap and incurs half the cooldown if you dismantle it (range need not apply). This could benefit the Guardian at higher tiers while making them less of a problem in lower tiers where people struggle with back-to-back trap barrages when engaging someone who previously set up on a point.

I play both. It’s a very bad match up. It comes down to watching for:
1. Glint heal. Don’t undo your work… Note: This should probably be made more obvious on the character.
2. If they are in staff and dash to you, you need to be ready to dodge, because Staff 5 can nearly 1 shot you if it hits you directly. Do NOT use courage to CC break it as much as you might want to, it does no good. It will CC again the instant that it breaks one of the knock downs, and will interrupt the courage cast and you will have wasted the full cooldown on Courage and it will not activate the shield nor stability.
3. If they run shield, you can save F1 pull, as it is unblockable, to yank them out of Hibernation. Similarly, Test of Faith on them. This means you can keep them from healing and more importantly, stalling for cooldowns.
4. A good time to Courage is just after they use Sword 3. Keep moving and it will block a lot of the hits and if they aren’t paying attention they often launch a Precision Strike right into it, as it’s a common burst combo. Near the end of the evade you can start using True Shot so that it keeps facing them during their attacks, and if timed right, hits them as they come out. Alternatively, try using LB5 on you while they evade, with Courage up, so you have a strong set up on them.

That’s a little bit to get you started.

EDIT: Fixed what “it” was in #2.

Quadox.7834:

100% winrate except one game which i lost because of dc

Same, except 1 due to me DCint while defending Stronghold (enemies got a free walk) was still close, and another I kept getting 6-8 second lag spikes. Other than that though it’s been fairly easy wins.

Aesa.4819:

ronpierce.2760:

Aesa.4819:

With full raid buffs, I often get chill damage for around 1.3k, and the occasional 1.6k (somehow, not sure what is causing it), but now after the latest patch I can never get any higher than 1.1k, often dropping down to as low as 700-800.

Anyone else have this experience?

Well… The latest patch DID nerf the scaling on it by 15% so less damage post patch makes sense.

Yeah I also read that, but it didn’t seem like it would have such a huge impact? This is quite the change tbh.

If you had it doing 1,300 damage and the scaling portion remained the same you could say it went to:
1,300 – 200 = 1,100*.85 = 935+ 200 = ~1135 damage. Give or take in areas with vulnerability, but this includes a nerf, technically, to might scaling as well.

Aesa.4819:

With full raid buffs, I often get chill damage for around 1.3k, and the occasional 1.6k (somehow, not sure what is causing it), but now after the latest patch I can never get any higher than 1.1k, often dropping down to as low as 700-800.

Anyone else have this experience?

Well… The latest patch DID nerf the scaling on it by 15% so less damage post patch makes sense.

Rome.3192:

Revenant’s precision strike tracks all 3 hits to you even if you’re in stealth. It doesn’t require it to be channelled or anything. This seems like a bug, because if it’s not, 8k every 4 secs even when you’re in stealth is really something.

You could have left the title as “Precision strike” and called it a day.

Leohart.4610:

Can you explain who “we” are? I’m confused.

My money is on he and his wife.

Sad, OP. I wish you luck. Sorry things have been a rough tumble recently and that the balance wasn’t quite there. If win ratios are a problem, maybe try in a week as divisions are slowly fleshed out. The new match making is most fair in terms of requiring skill to grow to the top, but unfortunately it also means the start of the season is a kittenaotikittenil people get to where they should be. If you want to keep trying, I suggest a week break and try once more.

Otherwise, bye and good luck out there!

Trevor Boyer.6524:

In addition ~

The guys who are on lose streaks also seem to be landing teams of warriors/thiefs and bad comps in general against meta stacks. Odd for this to happen so frequently.

Not necessarily. Earlier I won a match that was (me) DH, Reaper, Thief, Mesmer, Druid

Versus

Revenant, Ele, Druid, Scrapper and Reaper.

I thought hands down we lost, but it was another land slide 500-200 or so.

I had this problem last night and after about 3 games of massive lag spikes I logged out. Started to annoy me too much.