That said i wouldnt be surprised if they capped it somehow. Id be a little upset. But it might be necessary if say in a zerg 50 necros all epidemic and it duplicated 100 stacks to the same mob 50 times. And im not even talking about the damage. It might explode the server.
In fairness noone likes carrying deadweights that dont even communicate. I believe most of the exclusivity and toxicity comes from bad experiences with players like that.
Just takes a boss position change. Nothing particularly complex to fix. I can only assume they thought the bug was something else and misundestood the situation. (boss being invuln for no reason or something).
Yeah, Weakening Shroud bums me out too especially after the community had to argue the very same issue last time they wanted to make it a regular Enfeebling Blood.
And the sad thing is, some necros will even consider this a buff.
I understand the devs want to use real weapon skills on DS entry so they benefit from weapon skill reduction.
Honestly, I don’t understand this. This might make sense in general but not when skills are already time gated by the cooldown of Death Shroud. You just lose control over your abilities because you won’t be able to tell when the cds is ready.
Also, I’m sure that even if you’ll have Quickening Thirst or Axe Traing (jk, nobody will use them) the average “cooldown” by simply using Death Shroud as usual will be somewhere around 25 seconds anyway.
But if you ever need to go into DS more frequently because you need to defend yourself you’ll not only lose out on the aoe weakness for defense but the actual time passing between procs would probably double to somewhere between 30-60 seconds.
Exactly. It just doesnt make sense on the necro. Its fine on the other classes. But with DS its just a build hindrance.
Yeah it was but WP said something about it in one of his videos. He originally thought it was a condi. But people corrected him because of that blog post. Then it got confirmed to be a condition like a day later. Not sure where it was confirmed but it was around the time of the stream so i assume it was in there somewhere. Anyway fear is a status effect and a condition at the same time. So technically that blog isnt wrong. Its just another hybrid condition/effect.
I didnt actually say it was OP. I just said everyone picks arcane. It hurts diversity when one traitline is so good that you always take it. The devs actually explained this on the stream and i think most people who look at it objectively can agree.
I dont agree they are necessary. But if they were then surely the better solution would be to fix that issue without forcing people to use the same traits in the same line for every PvP build. :P
Then the solution isn’t nerf the good skills to create build diversity as that would create tons of bad traits all around. Objectively, I agree with you, there is little build diversity if there is one traitline is dominant. However due to elementalist being low health, low damage and low survivability without boons and the traits that exist in the Arcana line that line IS necessary.
The solution (better one) would be to create good traits that compete with those traits in other lines. Not traits like Ferocious Winds or Zephyr’s Speed.
Edit – Also, show me a build that is competitive that doesn’t have traits in Arcana for PvP or WvW.
Yeah well moving those traits was one step towards that. I agree having other good boon traits in the other lines is important aswell.
Oh I forget to add that the new weakening shroud now has a 25s increased cooldown compared what is currently live. Despite adding an additional stack of bleeding to the spell, it clearly doesn’t warrant this type of change (sigh). Trait’s like weakening shroud should only be limited by the cooldown of Death Shroud.
This is really pushing the envelope…
Agree. I cant stress this enough. I understand the devs want to use real weapon skills on DS entry so they benefit from weapon skill reduction. But this destroys DS flash builds. One of the coolest things about DS is the choice of using it or flashing it to gain benefits. If everything has a longer cooldown than DS itself then it destroys the fun in flash builds.
I didnt actually say it was OP. I just said everyone picks arcane. It hurts diversity when one traitline is so good that you always take it. The devs actually explained this on the stream and i think most people who look at it objectively can agree.
I dont agree they are necessary. But if they were then surely the better solution would be to fix that issue without forcing people to use the same traits in the same line for every PvP build. :P
I and many others have made lots of suggestions like that in the feedback threads on the necro forums. The new spiteful spirit trait is a really good opportunity to give us a blast on axe 3 and DS entry.
Lots of people have suggested sharing boons in DS. But i doubt we will ever get that. Im sure anet wants necro to remain selfish. Which is kind of bad in an mmo where you are meant to work together.
Anyway if we can push for finishers I think thats our best bet and most likely compromise. Finishers solves a lot of the selfishness problems. We might still be reliant on other classes bring the right fields but atleast we can then interact with the group. And still retain some of our selfishness. :P
The ele nerfs are justified. The only fault in them is they hurt less potent builds more and do not effect over the top builds like PvE staff ele.
From a PvE perspective D/F and LH need buffs to compete with staff yet they are being nerfed. And staff needs a nerf because its too strong and too easy. But the opposite is happening.
Overall the class could recieve way more nerfs and still be ahead of the other classes.
That may be the case from the PvE side but on the WvW/PvP side of things nerfing staff which is happening by both EA/EA and the air line is not justified at all. I do understand that they want to nerf D/D in PvP but this is defo not the right way as it literally affects all the builds, even those that require some skill and were fun to play..
Those nerfs are justified aswell. Everyone going arcane in PvP for those traits was stupid. It was too much. The lines need to be brought inline with each other.
The ele nerfs are justified. The only fault in them is they hurt less potent builds more and do not effect over the top builds like PvE staff ele.
From a PvE perspective D/F and LH need buffs to compete with staff yet they are being nerfed. And staff needs a nerf because its too strong and too easy. But the opposite is happening.
Overall the class could recieve way more nerfs and still be ahead of the other classes.
So one of my posts was deleted because it responded to another deleted post, but it included another suggestion for Curses:
Curses gm minor:
Terror: fear does damage + 2% crit chance for each condition on your target.
Curses gm:
Lingering Curse: change 100% duration to 30%, but keep the modified base durations for scepter conditions on this trait.
Target the Weak: 2% damage for every condition on your target + 50% chance to gain might whenever you inflict a condition (1 stack, 3 sec, no icd).
Soul Reaping master:
Master of Terror: +50% fear duration + fear deals additional damage if the target is afflicted with another condition.
Death Magic master:
Staff Mastery: merged Greater Marks and mark cd reduction.
I would move a merged staff trait either away from Soul Reaping or at least promote it to SR master tier so it doesn’t overshadow other traits too much.
baseline for marks: 1% life force per hit, instead of a static 3% on trigger to give it a scaling effect in team fights.
I like these. Only problem is both fear traits are essentially partial versions of the same thing. If you dont have curses and you have soul reaping you still get a terror. There are almost always conditions on foes. Dont know how else you would do it other than just moving them all together though. The target the weak grandmaster and terror minor is really nice though. Brings back power curse builds in a really nice way.
Well thats what we initially thought. But it has now been confirmed the only thing you “trade off” is a trait line of your choice. So basically because you can only have 3 traitlines equipped. It means to use the elite spec you can only use 2 core specs. Its not really a trade off when you consider this though because you can use any other core traitlines, weapons and utilities you want with the elite spec.
It was confirmed we dont lose any weapons or utilities when equipping the elite spec. Its basically an elite traitline which takes up one of our three traitline choices. And gives us access to extra stuff. And when we get more elite specs we will only be able to have one equipped at a time. Which means are access to some things will be restricted slightly. But the core stuff is accessible all the time.
Its very easy to blast fury mid fight even with light fields all over the place. The ele just needs to be smart about their lava font placement and where they aim the arcane wave.
Not really: for example having increased benefits from allied boons, higher heal income or a buff copypaste. It does not need to be an absurd gamechanger, but a decise one.
Well this is along the same sort of lines as what i suggested. I take back what i said. It is possible.
But those sort of traits create this weird situation where they can be just as strong solo. Thus ending up being just like giving us good self buffing. Or they end up just making the class way stronger than others when getting help from a team but pointless in all other situations. This creates a situation of “lets buff the necro because it scales the most with everything”. Its a nice idea. But i dont think its good for the game.
It would either be so good that everyone would feel forced to bring a necro into groups in all gametypes. Or it would be too weak so necros would be in the same situation they are now. Not worth taking or buffing and better off just having a full group of classes that can contribute to buffing each other.
Either way its an interesting concept. I just think it would be better to encourage group play and interaction in an MMO. And all classes should be able to do this to a respectable degree. Especially with the combo field and finisher system which is a really great part of GW2 combat.
Another thing about the curses grandmasters. Its a condi and crit line. But all 3 grandmasters are flat condi traits. They arent related to crit chance at all. We could simply have some kind of on crit trait which benefits both condi and power. For example might on crit (forceful greatsword style trait but not tied to a specific weapon).
You mean DS necros dont specialise in curses. There are plenty of alternative non condi builds that do. For example dagger power in PvE. Furious demise and target the weak are very good for power builds. It was never the stat investment that made you go into curses. There are other ways to max crit chance so crit damage would be better in a lot of cases if you only cared about stat investments even on a non DS power build.
It was weakening shroud, furious demise, banshees wail and target the weak that were the main incentives and were all vital parts of dagger necro in PvE. Furious demise was actually build defining because of DS flashing for fury seeing as we arent camping DS (lower dps than dagger). Same for target the weak because of how powerful it is when foes have more than 3 conditions on them. Those traits werent luxuries, they were the incentives. The precision was the luxury.
Anyway no traitline should be forced into one very specific role. None of the other classes have this level of focus in their new lines.
The only possible way to make a selfish class strong from allies while not making the class strong on its own. Is to have unique buffs which scale from allies. So for example a trait which gives +20% damage per ally in proximity. But stuff like that is pretty ridiculous. And i dont think its a good idea to encourage anymore selfishness than we already have.
If you think you have it bad. Try to decide what grandmaster to take in curses in a power build that wants furious demise, target the weak and banshees wail.
Those bosses are also immune to cripple and chill. I seriously hate inconsistancies like these. Especially when they hurt specific classes more than others. Mai Trin is another prime example. An attack which cannot be evaded is inconsistant and is problematic for a class with no blocks or invulns. And then theres the randomly changed projectile attacks which became unblockable so reflects, blocks and projectile blocks no longer work to defend against them (Malrona). Also the very idea of projectile defence not working on some projectile attacks is inconsistant. Even if you label the attack as unblockable its poor design in my opinion.
I do think i misunderstood you slightly. However your ideas are paradoxical. Like you said, there is either powerful so you dont need teammates or there is weak so you need teammates to help you out. Powerful selfish can be done with good self buffing and an abundance of utility and defence which only effects you. There is no way to make a weak selfish class desirable. If the class remains weak to the point it requires help from teammates then it is never going to be good. If you increase its interaction with other classes it becomes less selfish.
You cant keep it weak and selfish and make it viable. Thats impossible and a complete paradox.
Also if im understanding you correctly from your example. You are saying make the class selfish but use stuff from nearby allies to increase your individual potency. And what i said in the previous post is that it is no different from allies buffing you themselves. For example. You copy 25 might off your nearby ally to give it to yourself. How is that any different from your ally providing 25 stacks of group might? It certainly doesnt change anything or make the class any better. Its a wasted effect.
For ranger maybe s/d + gs? I would assume that would give you almost enough evades and blocks. Then you just go for extra through traits and utilities.
Thats just a poorer version than being able to self generate your own selfish power though. And if we are reliant on allies to gain our selfish power. Thats no different to how it is currently. Except instead of us taking it for ourselves the other classes give it to us through their group buffing.
A selfish class does things for itself without relying on others. And should be able to generate considerably potency independant of group interaction.
The ultimate way to make us a good selfish class is give us way more selfish self buffing. Like might on hit and vuln on hit. And higher personal damage. And more purely personal defence. But that seems to be against necro design aswell for some reason.
Funny when you have classes like warrior, ele and engi who all have huge group buffing at the same time as having the best self buffing.
If flesh golem was as tanky as greater earth/ice elemental then it would be used as a tank for bosses like Mossman and Archie. Unfortunately it dies way too fast.
Meat shields need to be considerably tanky to make up for the fact that they dont dodge and they just facetank every hit.
Looks like it should be PvP/PvE split then. No reason to nerf LH in PvE.
Split will confuse new players.
No one uses LH in pvp anyway so i don’t see any reason to do anything with LH. Well… buff would be perfect but i doubt that this is an option.
Erm. Im going to quote the post above mine because its relevant. :P
Now I just remember how Ice Bow and Lightning Hammer were stupidly strong during the Strong Hold beta test. You can cleave (and blind) the NPCs so fast that it leaves almost no counter play. If I’m not wrong, Lord doesn’t have Unshakeable either.
What iris is implying is that LH and Icebow were considered too strong in the new PvP gametype. Which might be the cause of the sudden decision to nerf them both.
If it wont be usable then its the same as being destroyed. Im skeptical that they will go as far as they did with FGS. FGS was broken because of the way you could use it. Icebow is only broken because the coefficients are a bit high. They are very different. Besides Icebow 4 only needs to average a higher total coefficient than regular build rotations for it still to be considered worth while burst. Which means it can take a substantial damage nerf and still be viable for burst. Especially on large targets.
Your PvE conclusion is completely false. Ele wasnt in the PvE meta previously because it hadnt really been discovered and people just went for warrior stacking. Its a god tier class in PvE and has been since the beginning (just took a while for people to realise). And its not just because of might stacking and conjures. It also has the highest damage in the game. The most AOE in the game. And huge versatility and range of utility. Even with icebow being nerfed it should still be the number one PvE class. PvE Staff build is getting buffed and that was already the highest damage build in the game.
You are forgetting radiant fire. They explained on stream that this refreshed your torch skill and allows you to throw it everytime it procs. This is a huge DPS boost for single targets. Throwing a torch 4 every 6 seconds is just LOL.
Necro is playing Tango? Ele is probably Moonwalking.
Difference is ele can take 3 steps back and still be ahead of every class in every gametype. :>
Not that i support the nerfing of ele. Its basically my second main. But the only thing i dislike is the butchering of air magic and as a result D/F. But even with that i will still be confident in it remaining top tier and one of my most played.
I do not know if anyone has pointed this out, yet, but the proposed HoT trait lines have not only themes but choices for each level that roughly equate to power, condition, defense/sustain.
This, and separating stat’s from trait lines, should make previously unworkable builds more effective for a greater true variety of builds.
The problem is our lines are far too focused on certain builds, meaning only one type of build is really suitable for some lines. Looking at the grandmasters its like you have to run minions to use Death magic and you have to be condi to run Curses. This is really bad and is the biggest issue with the proposed changes. None of the other classes have this level of excessive focus on a role per traitline.
It was already bad. But this was a good oppotunity to put all the useless blood magic traits together and add more options for different types of builds in each line. They avoided those issues entirely. And didnt even attempt to address the main flaws of necro such as lack of active defence, scaling sustain/defence, group support and finishers.
All condi grandmasters in a precision/condi line which has some good power traits in the lower tiers is the biggest joke ive seen. And then nerfing deathly invigoration and moving it to blood grandmaster is so bad its not even funny. Blood is an even bigger mess than it is currently. And death is such a shame because it could be a really good defensive line if it wasnt completely crowded by too many minion traits.
All that said. Its not really as if anything on necro has been nerfed numbers wise (apart from target the weak becoming crit chance instead of damage mods). Its just so much doesnt make any sense and the atrocious lines that noone used are even worse. Its like every class has taken 2 steps forward but necro has taken 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Resulting in a comparative nerf.
Some enemies are immune to fear. Just like some are immune to cripple. Fear and cripple do not apply at all to Lupi for example (Probably because he has 100% CC reduction and 100% cripple reduction). And some have completely broken all round condition duration reduction (Alphard).
At this point i dont even care if necros get no new group support. I just want their traitlines to not be a mess. And for us to actually have reasons for each line. For the other classes each line is focused towards a certain role. However on necro its completely locked in with little to no variation. For example curses is now condi apart from the minors and 1 master trait. Death Magic is all minions apart from a few bad traits in each line. And Blood magic is still just a complete mess and horrible for everyone.
