Guild Wars 2

<Microphone scruffing noises, followed by tapping>

“Good patriots of Lion’s Arch, and those listening on our sister station in Divinity’s Reach …. this is QQLA-Lion’s Arch Radio’s best known voice of reason, the Swiftness Furybag Show … reporting on something that should have you all up in arms. You see ladies, gentlemen, Charr, and sentient aquatic creatures … there is a war on Tixxmass ..err.. Winter’s Day.

These .. so called ‘progressive’ Divinity’s Reach socialists … who I call ’Divinity’s Preach’ because all they do is whine, and complain and riot, trying to force you to succumb to their progressive agenda …" <heavy breathing, papers shuffling>

“… they’ve launched all these frivolous lawsuits based on nothing but some children complaining because of a few bumps and bruises. In my day … in my day you played with your toys, you took your lumps and you were accountable for your own actions. Now? Well now we just get all litigious whenever some namby-pamby Divinity’s Reach urchin takes an arrow to the knee. What kind of society are we living in? Well I’ll tell you .. " <voice trails off, more paper shuffling noises>

“There is a war out there people. Remember?! Zhaitan isn’t going to roll over when Betty Sue or Scruffy Charrfluffy calls a ‘time-out’ because they stubbed their toe. Kids these days need to toughen up and quit whining and crying to mama .. or worse .. socialist sue-mongers .. when something doesn’t go their way. Grow up .. join the militia .. do something useful like die for your country … " <gulping/drinking noises … coughing>

“So .. so … these crybabies .. they’re mounting a smear campaign against the face of Winter’s Day, Tixx. They’re trying to take the Tixx out of Winter’s Day. They’ve launched a veritable campaign to dethrone the poster-Asuran model for industry, capitalism and ingenuity. What is with these people today?

I tell you, I’m awash in Fury … I pray to Dwayna to give me the Vigor and Stability needed to stand this … this assault on one of our most blessed holidays and a Paragon of all that is good and right in our industrious society … poor, poor Tixx!

Ladies and gentlemen and Quaggins .. this assault demands Retaliation. Noble, loyal listeners … we need to offer our prayers of Protection for Tixx …. we need to … to be his Aegis during this slanderous assault.

… we’ll be back after these messages from Quaggin Qurunch Cereal with a panel of experts to discuss this further … " <microphone feedback noises ... papers shuffling ..>

They drop loot? Seriously?
The other night logged in, went straight to Tixx’s dungeon and did 2 back-to-back runs (the Toy Soldier day).

I ended up with something like 12 gray cogs from the soldiers and the greens from the chest.

I swear I was 100% convinced the Tixx dungeon was not itemized … it actually is? Man, what the kitten is up with my account? I’ve got like permanent DR.

lDeadeyesl.9156:

I still completely fail to see how this is creating wealth from nothing, at least anymore so than crafting rares and creating more wealth by salvaging than you paid for the materials.

To the cold, cold hand of the market … there is zero difference between using wheelbarrows of existing mats to make a 2s profit vs using a handful of special mats to make a 20s profit. Both are “stuff goes in … profit comes out.”

ANet though have to consider “risk vs reward”, much like a casino. If a casino put a new slot machine in that was basically guaranteed to give the player money, the casino would flip the kitten out and have that sucker shut down instantly. In their minds there is probably a set “win” percentage, or profit amount that they feel is acceptable.

Because you can throw some t5’s in and come out slightly ahead? That won’t really be on their radar … you’re making a small profit that will be negated instantly if the price of ectos drops a little or the cheapest t5 mats get used up, or more ANets style, a string of bad RNG.

marianitten.1247:

Last time i check all servers were Full/high pop. ANET said that population means People PLAYING, no registered accounts. So, There is two options:

1) People are in different zones where you are.
2) ANET lied

Besides, you are talking about Underflow zones… that is different about “merging servers”.

For the record, ANet has come out and said the service “fullness” is based on accounts registered to a server. Theoretically, a server could be “Full” and yet, every person there quit playing the game and will never return (making it totally “dead”) and it’d still register as “Full”.

Also … I haven’t had Overflow in LA during prime time on my server more often than I have had it. I also have visited zones (again during “primetime”) and found less than 6 people in zone total.

Galen Grey.4709:

Gw2 is just about choices, its up to the player to make those choices. Trouble is, seems to me some people are just unable to choose what they want over the best item. Thats where the problem lies imho.

Your post makes some solid points.

The game makers set what is possible, they build the theme park and let us loose in it. Players can choose what they want to do, but they’re obviously limited.

I chose to PvE & WvW to 80 (twice so far). I chose to run a few dungeons to experience them. I did my personal story once up to the last piece (can’t get a group to finish it, weirdly). I’ve done more FotM than I want to do …

Now what? I guess, basically, there is nothing I’d “choose” to do anymore. I want to play, and enjoy the game, and stick around … but I’m left with limited options: FotM more (because 20 trips isn’t enough for an Ascended Ring I guess – though only 10 more and I can finally buy one with the new tokens!) and/or farm for Legendary (oh no, please no).

I’m just listless in there now … cut my play time back from a few nights a week to 1 Tixx run for the event & 45 minutes of /lfg spamming in LA hoping to get a FotM run together, followed by logging off annoyed.

xiv.7136:

How about a new group:

The “ex-hardcore”:

People who were hardcore, but who are now older and have become more casual, but still think of games with a hardcore mindset and years of previous experience.

Bingo. I think this is the group I’d best fit into (though I never made it to that “elite” level of “hardcore” where people did the top raids in other games – because frankly, the thought of repeating the same raid until you saw it in your sleep makes me cringe).

When I play a new game, I’m having fun my way. I’m experiencing new content and enjoying myself. ‘Casual’ friends don’t always like playing with me because I’m all “go go go” and I play too fast/‘hard’ for them. I’m planning my build while not playing, and when in game I’m running from quest to quest doing content while they’re tinkering with organizing their inventory or listening to two NPCs chat with each other.

Then, I run out of content I can play at my pace … I’m forced into this artificial bottleneck of RNG, DR, or just grind-grind-grind. I like fast-paced chaos basically (lol), and I’m forced to slow down painfully. I’m told by the game (and therefore the devs) “you can’t get your reward now, you have to do this one task log off for 24 hours and get a chance to go it again.” Bah, endgame. lol

Casual friends say “well you play too hardcore” & hardcore friends say “you need to play more hardcore”.

GW2 feels like a weird mix of things.

Horizontal progression at the very top (neat!) then vertical progression tacked on top of that after (err, what?). Which means if you want the best in slot stuff AND the look you want you now have to grind twice (for looks & for stats) instead of just getting the exotics you want and being done.

Nicely paced PvE & leveling designed in a pretty world that works well for casual players who aren’t in a hurry, but then FotM & Legendary grind/farm-fest packaged in there that require tons of hours to complete (odd combo, that).

WvW that is billed as “for the casual gamer” so you can hop in and play, yet it is overrun with this “24/7 required being online” and looks like a pure numbers game.

Take that recipe above, then roll it in batter and deep fry it in a bath of grindyness all around, because “getting something”/rewards from a task you do enjoy involves spending so many hours doing it, repeatedly, it can get ‘unfun’.

I’m in the middle of the casual—hardcore spectrum. Frankly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing anymore. I’d like to work towards accomplishing something, but everything seems designed to slow me down so much the game risks feeling like a second job.

Ascended & Legendary seem too grindy and time consuming for me as I do not buy games thinking they’ll be year+ commitments, I want my ‘fun’ and ‘reward’ and enjoyment sooner rather than super-duper-later. Yet, I’m not casual enough to still be sub-80th and seeing areas for the first time.

I’m used to this quandary though. I’m usually the one that shoots through content fast, having fun, and then hits that ‘endgame wall’ where things shift from enjoyable to pseudo-job.

GW2 just, currently, feels like they’re trying to cater to too many people. If you want to make a slower, casual game … do it. If you want to be a hardcore Korean grindfest, do that. Tell the other side of the audience “you can buy and try it, but don’t be upset if this game isn’t for you” and be done with it. Philosophically I feel the game audiences & the game systems required to please them are too far apart to “do it all” and please everyone.

Boomstin.3460:

It’s really weird though. Some persons seem to go unaffected by this and some people seem to have permanent dr on them.

I think this “bug” is hugely difficult to figure out (if they’re trying) because, like you said, it affects some people horrendously, and others hardly at all.

In general, almost everyone I’ve spoken to has seen a decrease in drop rates across the board in anything except FotM since the Nov 15 patch. It makes me feel there is, in fact, some tweaking done to the overall drop table.

On a more personal level & the separate “I think I have perma-DR” issue that affects loot drops …
I personally have never looted an exotic, ever. Never. Close to 900 hours played and 2 level 80s. Done dungeons, open world, and FotM. Have gotten zero exotics, ever. Well, I got the two in the Karka chest that were guaranteed, and ones from zone competition, but never have I actually squatted over a corpse and looted one.

If I do FotM, I usually get 0-2 rares per run-through, and enough greens/blues/junk/crafting mats to fill about 30 inventory slots.

Other people I’ve run with have looted 2 exotics in the same trip, several rares (I remember one trip where every single person in the group except for me got a rare off the same dead monster. Four other people got a rare, and I got a junk item.

I spent 4 hours one night farming crafting mats with a couple guildies and I got zero drops in the first 3.5 hours, no drops including gray “junk” items dropped for me. No corpses were lootable. The others had various crafting mats, whites, blues, greens, etc … I got zero drops for 3.5 hours straight killing the exact same mobs … until finally I got an ‘Egg’ and a gray junk loot before we broke up the group.

Charr .. because they’re effectively athiests .. and who else would lead a war on Tinxxmass?

We already have icicle daggers in game… so I’d want a candycane that someone fashioned into a sharp point.

Warlord.9074:

However […] women […] are just objects that are to be manipulated for entertainment purposes.

You sexist monster!!!

(Kidding, of course. I’ve just always wanted to heavily & horribly edit someone’s post like that. Thanks for, I assume, being a good sport about it! )

Honestly I hope they add more armor skins in general soon. I don’t really care if they’re skimpy or not (though a mix is obviously good) … I’m noticing a lot of people starting to look very much alike, and I thought that was a big no-no the devs said.

Raine.1394:

Yukishiro.8792:

It is a problem in the sense that the design doesn’t make sense. If we want level 1s to be able to mine top tier mats why do we restrict everything but a few specially available picks with a level requirement? Clearly the basic system contemplates level gating. There are just a few items that ignore the gating mechanism. They seem like an oversight.

What exactly would be the advantage of having a level 1 mine the node, assuming you could get it there before it made level 2? Why not park a level 80 that you aren’t currently doing anything with? I understand what you talking about in terms of design, but I’m also interested in the specific problem we’re trying to fix here. Just, what is the problem?

It takes time to get a character to 80. How long does it take to get a character to level 2? 10 minutes? A fresh character can get to that Ori and mine it in 15-20 minutes, depending on load times & speed buffs.

What is stopping that person from deleting that character and doing it again?

Himei.5379:

I dont see how this is a problem when the prices for Ori is going up. It was only 2s30c past few days, now its 2s65c. Apparently its not hurting the market.

It is actually artificially holding down (yeah, despite the crazy price spikes) the prices on exotics.

Cheap Ori from these characters is the same as cheap Ori from bots … more supply so it keeps it cheap. If they stop people from farming Ori like this, expect the prices to go up like ectos recently did, and exotics to spike even higher.

FourTwenty.4268:

PowerCat.5738:

Server population is not players online at that time, it’s players registered to that server.

Yes, it’s full of accounts of people who aren’t playing.

doubt it

my friend just got the game and sat refreshing the server list for 15 minutes until SoS went from full to very heavy so he could roll on the server I’m on.

so it changes based on how many people are on at the moment. i doubt he was able to get on the server because people were moving OFF the server. . .and i doubt it was from people getting banned from the game entirely

PrX, a pretty big WvW guild actually just left SoS for Seafarer’s Rest (Euro server). So, if you know any other friends that want to play with you there, have them join fast before the rest of the slots gets gobbled up

They’re rather messed up on my female Norn as well.

The legs clip through every pair of boots I’ve tried (except the vigil boots, which I do not want to wear).
The ‘butt’ portion doesn’t line up correctly. It sticks out a little further than my character’s back, and makes it look like she is wearing a diaper.

If there is a resource nodes on your way, and your group is running to XYZ area, do you stop and harvest all the resource nodes? That is basically what you’re doing. You’re pulling the car over on a road trip to stop at a location no one else wants to.

“But it is on the way.”

The people you’re talking about aren’t there to kill those mobs, or to get random RNG loot drops. Heck, most people aren’t even having fun while they sleep through those runs. They’re there to finish the Jade Maw, open their daily box, and get back to doing what they actually want to do and that they find fun.

To you, maybe the RNG-change to get blues/whites are worth it. To them, they obviously aren’t.

Different goals in the same group.

I noticed something this week I hadn’t seen previously. I am getting level appropriate loot in WvW… but .. not MY level, but the dead person’s level.

Playing a level 76ish character, my group stumbled on and killed a few solo low level people that must have been out gathering or doing map completion. If we’d get a drop, all of us would compare the item’s level to figure out the dead person’s level. lol

Been playing a lot of WvW since the game started and never had that happen before.

I’ve gotten loot the level for the zone, even if I was higher (80 in a level 35-45 zone finding level 39 blues) but not in WvW before.

I knew it! The Divinity Reach media was right.

There is a war on Tixxmas!

I’ve been saying Magic Find was borked for a while now. Everyone else tells me I’m just somehow the most unlucky person on the planet when it comes to computerized RNG in GW2.

Thing is … a properly crafted die is RNG – it rolls, a random number pops up. Computerized RNG isn’t totally random. If someone typo’d a digit in the code somewhere things could be thrown off.

Of course all we have is anecdotal evidence, and some samples pieced together from multiple sources all saying something is funky.

Personally, I was farming for crafting mats a while back and used one of the Magic Find boosters from BL Chests. Before using the booster I was getting some drops, though not as many as the guildies I was grouped with. We were relatively close in the amount of Magic Find gear worn.

After using the booster, I got zero drops. Zero magic stuff, zero crafted stuff. For quite a while I actually got zero loot at all even when they were getting drops … we killed dozens of mobs until finally I got a couple ‘eggs’ and some junk gray items. The whole time, the rest of the group looted crafting mats, whites, blues, greens, etc.

I hit the DR at the time twice (well I couldn’t tell that I did since I got no drops, but the rest of the group saw they hit DR so I assume I did too).

Doggie.3184:

Greatsword Mesmer, ranged DPS. .-.

Developers love greatswords. Even Trahearne the Necromancer gets one.

Plus most of them are so impossibly HUGE that you can see them from orbit!

Delolith.9645:

Miele.6537:

Nobody plays games to be tortured, and yet that is exactly what the end of game of every MMO that copies WoW does.

You are very wrong. I can say that after 13 years of playing MMOs, the only things that I remember from the previous games I have been in are the good times during hardships.

Hardships bond you with the game than rather being a filler to your free time that you could also spend just staring blankly to TV or just a white painted wall….

That is exactly why I think so fondly of EQ1….not just because it was my first one…but due to the hardships the game had.

You know, that is funny. I feel that you are very wrong.

I was there in Everquest. You know what I remember?
“Hell levels” … every what was it, 9 levels? – the 10th one would take 20x the previous level’s experience to complete. Forced grind.

“Farming for XP”. You basically had to sit there and kill the same exact 10 monsters every couple minutes for dozens of days. There weren’t quests for XP like we have in MMOs now.

Raster of Guk. I had camp a single spawn in a game for 70 hours straight, to get a single piece required for my Epic class weapon. The dude spawned rarely, in one spot, and since kill-stealing existed … people could run up and DPS him down before I did, thereby invalidating my entire time spent camping him and there was nothing I could do about it.

Loot rolls. DKP points. Officers having to stop massive drama meltdowns every time a raid got a good drop because it took 20+ people to take down a boss that would drop 1 piece of loot that multiple people wanted and the boss only spawned once every 7 days.

No instancing. It was always first-come first-served. Bosses reset and your guild didn’t get there first? Well better luck next week. Oh, one guild has your server’s bosses basically locked down on a timer in their time zone? You’ll never see those fights, ever.

Expansion after expansion that spewed out more grind … more levels … more ‘betterer’ numbers on weapons that you were required to have to be able to tackle the new content that dropped better gear that you were required to have to .. faint

I could spew a dozen more horrible things I remember.

One day I woke up and realized I was paying $15 a month for the privilege of spending more time than I spent at my place of employment being tortured by Sony Online Entertainment. I was voluntarily submitting myself to torture and paying for it too. lol

Did I have some good times? Sure. I met friends that I kept for years. We shared laughs and triumphs, but it wasn’t worth all that.

Edit: Another thing I remember … “GM Events”. At the time I liked them because they were something new to do, and a chance at loot (although almost no one got any) yet hated them because they were literally just the GMs with /godmode on dressed as the monsters, roflstomping players by the dozens.

Now I find the GM Events funny, because of the amazing level of trolling the GMs were doing … the amount of frustration those folks were taking out on their own customers is epic.

gogoapoxy.1425:

So for a game that is supposed to be end game and offer meaningful encounters, there should not be any result of failure?

I understand we do not want another Orr, for one of the few DE that had a timer, why make failure the same result as success?

If the whole game is supposed to be end game, then everyone wouldn’t be in FotM and they’d be spread out in .. well .. the ‘whole game’.

There should be results for failure, but the reason these events are failing isn’t because “oh no, all of us couldn’t finish the event in time; good job evil NPCs!”, it is “hey, where is everyone?!”

I have been in zones this week, 50-65 in level, during 5-10pm EST (so EST prime time into PST prime time) in which I never saw another player. I kid you not, I never saw a single other player. I even asked in map chat, nicely, a couple times to make sure other people were around and got less than 5 responses.

Either lots of people vanished, or everyone is doing FotM ‘end game’.

mulch.2586:

Knote.2904:

Another alternative would be to make them purchasable for karma as well, more uses for karma is always good.

I think karma and cultural armor make sense, more that gold.

Do we think Logan and the other defenders of Divinity’s Reach had to pay for his uniform? Or did he earn it by heroic deeds?

I do think it should be difficult to obtain. Make it a million karma – whatever. My point is that, like the cultural weapons, these are things that distinguish the heroes of a race, and they should be earned by heroic deeds in Tyria, not paypal, not playing the market, not farming.

But these aren’t uniforms, or medals for heroism.

Its fashion. Fashion favors the wealthy, not the heroic.

… and karma is farmed just the same as gold is. So even if they made it karma-purchases you’re still just promoting farming … you’re only removing the ability for people to pay real-life money for fashion.

Pig.5827:

The thread has to do with the balancing issue of difficulty. My personal opinion, is that for that to be obtained there has to be some change, be it easier for some or more difficult for others. So yes, people may get screwed over if they change it. But that’s how balance works.

None of getting a Legendary is ‘difficult’, only ‘time consuming’ or ‘wallet breaking’.

Technically what you want is a level gold-cost for all the Legendary weapons, which isn’t possible, because drop rates change … people farm some areas more than others … new items are added … the market fluctuates, etc.

Nev.5316:

Knote.2904:

Another alternative would be to make them purchasable for karma as well, more uses for karma is always good.

That would be stupid, karma is extremely easy to gain, ive got over 200k in the past few weeks just from daily jugs. If that was ever introduced everyone would have t3.

I agree. I am only happy if I have something poorer people can’t have. It isn’t the look of the armor that I’m paying for … it is the ability to look better than poorer people and exclusivity.

So therefore, the less people that have T3 Cultural, the better I look.

Think of T3 Cultural as a fancy Manhattan nightclub. If they let everyone in, then those of us inside won’t feel special anymore and we’d have to go somewhere more exclusive. .. and that means I’d be stuck paying for another armor set to have it first.

This slippery slope of cosmetic, horizontal gear progression CANNOT be allowed to begin.

Avatar.1923:

if you did all you wanted to do.

then its “game over”.

yeah, games are not meant to be played forever and ever.
unless you feel like it, of course!

^This.

MMOs aren’t meant to last forever; no game is. If you paid your fee for the box, did what you wanted in game, and had some fun doing it … success. You win; move on.

“Endgame” is silly. No MMO has ever made an “endgame” that wasn’t just an overt attempt to force people to repeat the same content ad infinitum to “earn” a few pixels and a +1 to your character sheet.

They want to keep players around, but cannot make content to keep them all busy. The only way around it is to put out what content they can and forcibly slow everyone down from finishing/achieving to drag things out.

Now, mind you, some people enjoy that. Some people want to grind, or farm, or run the same dungeon or raid 10+ times to prove or earn something. MMOs fit these people and their playstyle very well.

Some people just play slowly, as well. They play less hours so they consume content at a pace the developers can keep up with. They also luckily avoid a lot of the grind, because generally the grinds get smoothed out over time.

If your idea if fun is not rerunning the same content as if it is a job, to ‘earn’ a small upgrade, and you do not play at a very slow pace … then you are probably not the long-term MMO customer.

Walk away, put a Post-It note on your calendar to come back in a couple months and do the new stuff they add.

Asking MMO players’ advice about an MMO is not a solid idea. People will suggest things you do not find fun, then act abhorred when you disagree. Find someone that doesn’t MMO .. and pose the same question to them. “Hey I did all the stuff I could find to do in this game I play … there is some other stuff to do but I don’t like it … wut’ do?!”

Odds are instead of “well grind ____”; “explore/grind/farm ____!”; “rerun ____ over and over until you ‘earn’ a reward!” you’ll get a less biased answer.

deborah.2068:

Cosmetics to me well unless you have the best to put it on is over rated I mean its like putting a wrapping over kitten in the end its still kitten so like I said a gold or two but i do like the karma idea

You should never wrap kittens, they could suffocate.

I think if they want things to really be rare, they should limit the amount of times a merchant will sell the items.

So either make it a limited time offer and remove the merchant after so much time passes, or make the merchants have a limited number of inventory and once it is sold out it is gone.

That way, everyone won’t all be wearing the same armor, and those that put in the effort get what they deserve: a set of armor very few other people in the game will have. That way they’re rewarded for their hard work and are special.

I think if they’re just going to go the “traditional MMO route” they might as well just go all-in. Copy the titles that are most successful and be done with it.

Throw out shallow power increase and go full tiered progression. Roll out a new tier of gear above Ascended with solidly better stats in 3 months, and bump the level limit another 10 levels.

Shallow power curves are just an excuse to trickle power to someone for the same amount of effort required in other games, for bigger jumps. If someone has to grind for 40 hours for a new power level of gear it should make them more powerful, not just a tiny bit.

Think of it this way: If you have to flip burgers for 40 hours to get your paycheck, would you rather get $2 an hour or $15 an hour? Bigger is better, right?

If we have to grind for power – make people feel better and give them big numbers at least.

Edit – They already said back in 2011 that level increases are planned for expansions. Power creep is obviously here now. Resistance is futile.

Bluebird.1890:

See, now THIS is interesting.

It sounds like, in your opinion, the best solution here would be an avenue upon which we can actually judge the most popular opinion of the community instead of assuming the vocal forum contributors and Reddit community are the voice of the game.

Maybe a platform upon which we could vote for changes in gameplay design?

I like that a lot, actually.

Thanks for finding it interesting. lol

Honestly, I don’t know the answer. If I did, I’d sell it and retire on a private island somewhere as “that dude that totally found a way to make an MMO mass popular for both horizontal and vertical progression advocates … and without it being considered too grindy too!”

Obviously the vocal people on either extreme end of an argument aren’t “the norm” though and cannot be made happy if their counterparts are to be made happy. One end of the spectrum attempting to understand the other will never happen, either. Ideologically it just isn’t possible.

ANet dropped the ball on this one. They admitted it after. If they’re truly searching for that fulcrum point … that spot where they fail to tick off the largest number of players (and note how I wrote that … there is no way to make everyone happy, or even make most players happy … but there IS a point where you make the least number of people unhappy) they totally misfired with Ascended stuff. I doubt there are many people that wouldn’t point at it and identify it as a grind. Nearly everyone at the concert pointed and screamed “stop doing whatever that is you are doing.” We’ll see if the band really does change tune.

So sure, they’re working on it. That will make some people content. Others aren’t going to be happy with it at all … the damage was already done.

You were right about the ‘shroom analogy. Thought about it on the way home. It is too objective. I’m strictly forbidden from using analogies at work, and basically got my Master’s Degree in “bullkitten & analogies” … so forgive me for spewing them here so much, but I enjoy it.

Revisit the restaurant … yet .. make it one that, prior to opening, said it would cater to people that do not like spicy food. “Every other restaurant is spicy,” they claim, “so we’re the restaurant for people that want a different experience!”

Spicy is obviously subjective. There are degrees of spicy and people will enjoy different amounts of it, tolerate other amounts, and downright dislike others. I love spicy, others do not.

Weirdly, I go to ANet’s restaurant. I guess I’m just so used to spicy restaurants I didn’t think they’d be different. Maybe I just liked the flashy advertising.

I blow through the whole menu … gobble it all down … then complain that it isn’t spicy enough. A bunch of other people did the same as I did … we all complain together. We want spicy.

Instead of saying “well maybe you should try the place across the street” as this restaurant wasn’t made for us, and many other restaurants exist that cater to us already; this is business after all, ANet want to sell food, why would they actively turn us away? So, they alienate their fanbase and not only add something spicy, they add something so spicy even people that love spicy food are like “zOMG”.

“Well you don’t have to order the spicy food,” I tell the people that are getting upset, “it is just for ME and MY friends.”

“Well why does HE get personal food content? Why is he getting special treatment? We were promised the whole restaurant was just for us.”

Then, some of the no-spicy people realize a couple chefs are going around with a spice grinder and getting spicy grinds in some of the old dishes. They fear the new dishes will be made with those spicy grinds in them too. Rightful paranoia, I’d say, because the restaurant already strayed from the extreme “no spice” stance and added the mega-spice option. The only obvious way for them to proceed is to cater to the middle.

Oh well … we’re all happy now, right?

Well no. I want more spicy. The other guys are mad spicy is even on the menu. Some people will leave, from both camps. Many ‘middle ground’ people … on either side of that fulcrum point will stick around.

Some will “wait and see” as you say … others will never come back, and are revolted their favorite restauranteurs “lied to them” … others just want to watch the world burn.

Bluebird.1890:

Your analogy assumes that grind is an objective term, when it is subjective. Mushrooms are very easy to identify: If it is a mushroom, it is a mushroom. A restaurant can say “We are mushroom free!” because nobody can walk in and point at one of their pieces of broccoli, and call it a mushroom. They’d get laughed out of the restaurant.

This is not so for grind. People can misinterpret any part of the game that they don’t enjoy that has a reward for participating a “grind.” Anything that isn’t fun to some people get’s labeled “grind.” And with that, now Arenanet is guilty for going back on their word!

It doesn’t work that way.

And here we have the brunt of the argument. (And yes it does work that way.)

Yes, ‘grind’ is subjective. As I said above: as is ‘fun’ and ‘challenge’ and ‘effort’.

The whole gaming genre (and entertainment industry really) is built on subjective terminology.

Society … and in a business sense, your customers … they decide what the norms are, and define those subjective terms. “Mass subjectivity” happens … to the point where the subjective is nearly the objective.

If 1,000 people are at a concert, and all of them say “man that was terrible” … it was terrible. If the band shouts from the stage, saying it wasn’t terrible … well, they’re entitled to their subjective opinions but the people have spoken. Terrible just happened.

Obviously not everyone is going to be in agreement. BUT, sooner or later you’ll find that fulcrum point. Maybe 300 people think the concert is terrible. 700 liked it to different degrees though. Is that success? Either way, you should try better next time.

What if 700 people found it terrible? Is it worth listening to then? Do we still dismiss it as “well that is just their subjective/opinion.”

I’ll be ignoring the latter part of your post, as it is not relevant. If I wanted to gang up on people, I’d move my character to Jade Quarry and do WvW. It’d be much more satisfying.

You’d be better off joining servers that fight against Jade Quarry and then insulting the Jade Quarry WvW folks … that seems to ensure you’re in the majority of ganger-uppers.

Bluebird.1890:

Dominae: (I don’t want to quote you because… yeah, it was long. I did read it though.)

Chris did address in his responses to our questions the fact that he feels the requirements to obtain ascended gear are too high right now, and that the solution is more ways to obtain the same gear through different avenues.

I think that kind of addresses what you are saying.

It does not address it, sadly. .. well, it addresses it, sure, but not in a satisfactory way for me personally. A grind is a grind. Making it slightly less of one still makes it a grind, and something I do not want to have to do for a reward.

Many people (myself included) dislike the ‘grind’ of the typical MMO genre. GW2 was touted as an MMO for people that dislike typical MMOs & grinds. (Fact.)

Now, they’re adding in the things from those ‘typical MMOs’ that those people came here to avoid. That obviously will not make those people happy.(Fact.)

Once you get people in the door, who are there because you said “we are NOT XYZ” and then start becoming XYZ, people are going to foam at the mouth.

Analogies are fun: I dislike mushrooms and am mildly allergic to them. If a restaurant says they’re “Mushroom Free” and I go there, I expect no mushrooms. If suddenly, after a couple months of me making them my go-to-place, I find ‘mushrooms everywhere’ I’m going to be upset.

Them putting out a press release that says they understand I hate mushrooms, and will look to tone it down … well that doesn’t help me. I’m anti-shroom, man. I came here because I’m anti-shroom.

… and if you say “well just eat around them” I’m going to scream.

So, Chris saying “yeah, grind sucks .. we’re looking to tone it down some though” does nothing for many people as it is folly to assume the new ways to achieve Ascended gear still won’t be a grind.

I like WvW … I do it a lot. Know how many pieces of WvW gear I have? One, and I could just now afford a second. WvW exotics are countless hours more expensive than crafted ones (unless you basically sit on an arrow cart and blast a zerg the whole time you are in there). I maxxed my crafting (2 professions to make myself gear) in less than 2 hours and made my exotics. I’ve got over 180 hours in WvW since the game started and can afford 2 & 1/2 exotic items.

Bluebird.1890:

I would agree with you if the intent of my post were to piss as many people off as possible, but I honestly would like to try and understand where these people are coming from.

Most of them (see the one I just replied to) just repeat the same things over and over again, even after they’ve already been acknowledged, like somehow this is going to make things change faster.

To be honest, this thread seems, now, to be a thinly veiled feint to “understand” in which you actually hope the thread fills with others that feel the same as you, allowing you to gang up on those that disagree.

Tips to not ticking people off:
- Don’t call them “these people”
- Remain open minded and sincere if you’re actually attempting to understand them
- Avoid attacks, especially when you weren’t attacked … this includes actively trying to avoid being defensive

Also: Understand that people in the restaurant allergic to shrooms aren’t going to take “we’ll make the meals 20% less shroomy!” as a satisfactory response to their complaints.

Warning: super long response that should probably just be a blog entry with no tl:dr

Bluebird.1890:

I honestly am left dumbfounded reading threads like this, and cannot fathom the logic that was utilized in order to reach the conclusions driving their origins.

Do we not play video games for fun any more?

‘Fun’ is subjective.

I do not find repeating the same content a bunch of times fun. I have fun a couple times, because I am doing something new, then I realize it isn’t fun anymore … it is simply pushing a button to get loot.

So, after a while I realize that I am not playing the game to have fun.

Now, in that period of time I am playing the game and having fun, it would be awesome if I also got a reward (loot, title, whatever) for completing the objectives I just completed. A trophy that says “hey, I did this and had fun!”

For some reason, MMOs aren’t built like that. People will shout and point and say (as you did) that I “want something for nothing” or “want a reward for little/no effort”, etc.

Little effort? I just saved the world from a massive lobster invasion, why doesn’t that earn a reward? Wait …what?! To get a reward I have to stop the same lobster invasion 22+ more times? What logic is that?

“Hey, I caught the criminal. I’d like the reward money.”
- Heck no, you have to EARN it … we just let the dude go, you have to catch him 19 more times and then you’ve earned the reward.

You mention ‘effort’ … so I’ll toss this out: ‘Challenge’ is also subjective.

I do not find repeating the same content challenging. Fighting the same mechanics, or the same bosses (just with more HP) ‘challenging’. It is not ‘effort’ to me, it is mindlessly repeating while watching a movie/TV and practically sleeping through the content because we all have it memorized.

Because someone spent 5 hours repeating the same fight … that = effort? That means they earned something I didn’t?

Before the massively flawed analogy comes up: Sure, that works in the workplace … if you work for 8 hours and someone else works 6, you should get 2 more hours of pay then they do. .. but in MMOs, why are we rewarding people using the same formula? Why does reward have to = hours spent doing an activity? Games should not be = work.

Save the village? Here is your reward.
It should not be: Saved the village? Well … how many hours did you spend saving it? Ok here are your tokens that represent the amount of hours of work you put in … come back tomorrow and we’ll give you a few more. That is a job.

Now … I’ll use FotM to finish this up …

I like(d) FotM… they were interesting places with some new game mechanics. It was fun. Allowing me to kick the difficulty up a notch to try it again for better reward? That is nice too.

We beat it once … reward us. I try harder difficulty and we beat it? Reward us again.

Do NOT make me run it over and over 50+ times for a reward. That isn’t ‘fun’ gameplay, that is forcing me to perform work to “earn” my reward and that isn’t my idea of a game, or fun.

If single player RPGs can make fun gameplay that rewards me when I finish it the first time, why do MMOs base reward on mass repetition of the same content to “earn” the reward? Why are MMOs built to reward people that smash their head against the same content for hours?

Adding alternative avenues to earn Ascended gear (like there are different ways for exotics) will help fix some of the issue. I fear though, after seeing how many hours of grinding FotM (or how much in ecto & t6 mats are required) for the current Ascended equipment the ‘hours required’ to get Ascended in WvW or outside of FotM will take.

I find getting a standard set of dungeon armor a grind, yes. I consider getting the weapons from the dungeons a grind too.

Why? I don’t find the same content fun after the 2nd or 3rd time I do it. My “omg this is a grind, eff’ this” switch flips earlier than many people’s it seems. If I’m going to be spending my leisure time doing an activity, I want it to be enjoyable.

Counciler.7438:

NaughtyProwler.8653:

Anything repeated to the point where you no longer inherently enjoy the activity you are participating in must be considered a grind (to me).

A flexible yet accurate description of grind. I like that definition, but how would or could a game developer fine tune their highest tier rewards while avoiding grind? If everyone’s concept of it is different, how do you avoid it while still ‘enforcing rarity’?

I make the assumption that this is why you need 1200 Tokens for a full suit of armor, instead of… say… 300.

Enforcing rarity?

Nothing in an MMO is going to be rare, if you can stand in line to get it by doing the same activity over and over.

Legendary weapons might be rare right now, but if the game goes on long enough, they’ll be common things to see.

varonecl.4265:

playing WvW doesn’t make you legendary

“Legendary” is being used a tad loosely don’t you think?

How is auto-attacking non-challenging content for hours and hours … or spending real-world currency on gold to buy materials … or grinding a dungeon you can sleep through because you know it so well “legendary”?

Watch the answers…

All of these points are part of the game progress… Dungeons are part of the story mode, exploration of these dungeons are also part of the story mode. Notice if I want specific looking gear from a faction area I do the dungeons in those areas, or I explore the natural flow of the playable world present throughout the story of the game in order to achieve these things. Even in the case of Karma and crafting these come as natural accumulation of doing the world game play story or exploration.

If you told me the WvW elements were part of the normal world map and these JPs were within the world and PvP was going on within the normal course of the map, I would have no room for argument. But I am joining a distinct map out of play of the normal gameflow. Dungeons are situated within the normal map.

The “normal world map” is a bunch of individual maps, with artificial boundaries, pressed up against each other and accessed via clear/blue’ish portals between each other.

WvW maps are individual maps, with artificial boundaries, accessed via colored portals.

So … is WvW not “normal world map” because they aren’t pressed against the other “normal world map” zones? Is it the color of the portals that make them different?

Or are you going with the story-mode “lore” part of things? Lore-wise: WvW happens “in the mists” where worlds battle each other for resources and stuff. There, boom, it is part of the Lore and story of Guild Wars.

Thanks for the opinion though because I know there are people who do not care to play dungeons, I am not sure why as they are part of the story and in some cases linked to the dynamic events of the normal world play. The grinding can be irritating but I enjoy that aspect to some degree. I do not care for Mob PvP.

Don’t want to WvW? Don’t.

You don’t get a Legendary though. Want one? Suck it up.

Tip: Find friends that do it, go with them, you can play perfectly fine in small numbers. You do not have to be part of the “mob”.

Worked before the Lost Shore patch. Doubt it has changed.

FYI – it has always said the resulting item would be soulbound, but (if both items weren’t already soulbound to begin with) it functions as Account Bound.

You can always test the process with a cheap-o item, like the special starter equipment (engi backpack or hats, thief hats, etc). That way you have peace of mind before you try and swap 2g pants.

synk.6907:

wickedgreen.4685:

Then there’s always transmutation. Can anyone confirm if you can transmute between characters, i.e. if you had 2 characters that wore medium armor and one join the order of whispers while the other joined the vigil, could you make a set with the whispers top and vigil leggings?

I, too, would like to know if this kind of transmutation trick works. I would rather hear from others who have done it successfully before spending any in-game moneys.

As someone with Vigil medium pants, Whisper medium chest piece, and an engineer backpack on the same thief character … yes, yes it currently works.

Darknass.1903:

My point is, does it really feel rewarding/fun to take advantage of some blatant exploit to obtain your shinies?

“Fun” – “Rewarding” – “Challenging” – these words keep coming up.

In the end … fun is totally subjective. What is fun to one isn’t always fun to another. What is rewarding to someone depends on their goals. Challenge is also wildly subjective.

Many people do not find the gear grind “fun”, nor challenging. Others claim they do (though I find it difficult to wrap my head around).

Frankly, to many of us, it is like standing in line to receive something. You know if you show up and stand there long enough you’ll get the thing you’re in line for. Maybe it takes waiting in line a few days, for long hours, but sooner or later you’ll get yours. Waiting in line sucks, isn’t fun, and is totally not challenging. Yet, because you want the thing (reward) you stand there.

The act of waiting (or repeating the content over and over in this case) is painful, and unfun. It is not enjoyable. To alleviate this, maybe you bring a couple friends with you, and hanging out with them makes waiting in line less painful. Spending time with your friends is fun! Therefore, this activity must be fun too? Well, no.

That is gear grind MMO’ing.

… I guess the bigger question is: if we do not find the game, or at least parts of it fun, why do bother playing it?

Ayep, what he said above^^

If you could zone into FotM, /dance x6, /sleep x2, /say a certain phrase then purposefully disconnect … and when you came back it counted as finishing it, everyone would do that.

The fun was doing them the first couple times; learning the mechanics, exploring and seeing new things. After that wore off (around FotM 3?) it became another mindless Skinner box.

Push button; receive bacon.

The faster you get that button pushed, the faster you have the privilege of doing it again.

Yes.

It doesn’t matter what hand (or armor slot) any of the upgrades are in. If you are wearing it (or holding it) you get the benefits of it.

Think of the money they’ll save when everyone is funneled, finally, into Fractals and they can shut down every zone & server except for FotM and LA!

Kallout.5289:

If somebody ran it twice, they only got the chest once… There is no exploit if the person decided to run it twice for simply enjoying the event. Actually, I commend the people who ran it twice; enjoying the game!? BLASPHEMY. Gimme a break.

You could get the chest as many times as you had alts and could find an overflow still doing it.

Tammuz.7361:

correct me if im wrong but, wernt the drops scaled to character level?

so to do what your talking about wouldnt the player need 8+ level 80s? and wouldnt deleting and remaking characters not provide the drops your talking about?

Yes and no.

The chest seemed to always reward the 20-slot box, as well as the all-stat-earring.

Then you got, from what I can tell:
1 random rare or exotic (scaled to level)
1 random exotic (scaled to level)
1 “named” level 80 exotic (this was NOT scaled to level)

I personally got a junky named level 80 exotic I sold for a gold. Others got a named level 80 exotic that was a precursor.

I think this is the new normal, to be honest.

Whole guilds, heck whole zones of people, commenting about how they felt the final Karka event was terrible; be it the lag, the fact that it was just constant wipe after wipe to an army of mobs no one could see due to rendering/culling, the “reinforcements” phase that lasted 45 minutes, the seemingly complete lack of random drops on the island other than crab meat. In the end, everyone I knew was just trudging through the event (or AFK just out of death range) waiting for it to end so they could get their chance at precursor RNG.

“There better be good rewards at the end, because I haven’t been having fun for 2+ hours” was the mantra of the night. Once someone reported you could get precursors, people perked up and it became “I hope I get good loot to make this worth it, because this is just painfully bad.” This weekend’s events, and the island, felt very much like hurdles to jump just for the chest at the end.

The FotM dungeon is definitely fun, at least a few times. Sadly, it has turned people that used to group up and do content for fun and to help each other, and maybe for dungeon tokens to buy gear or gear out alts, into difficulty-level-counting-monsters. The ease of getting groups has declined, even amongst friends and guildies for many, as no one wants to “waste their time” redoing a FotM tier they already finished … everyone has eyes on “better drops at higher difficulty” and Ascended.

lorazcyk.8927:

Because it’s so difficult to press H and shift-click each piece of gear, then press Enter twice to submit to chat.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!!!

but when they add preview to TP people can just look up better stuff then they have and link that!

Rofl

Man this is painful, isn’t it.

Saw my first…

lf2m ranged dps fom2 lvl80 w/exotics only.link gear

Messaged them, asking if serious because I was on level ‘2’, was told they’re totally serious.

Have to admit this made LA map chat a little more fun last night, for the few seconds I was in game.

Half the people talking about the sudden Legendary stat increases thought Legendary weapons were already better than exotics, stat wise, before this patch. This included two people that actually had Legendary weapons.

A good portion of people thought Ascended weapons were in game, and that is why Legendary weapons suddenly were better. People using alt-codes to link the new patch items didn’t help convincing these people otherwise.

Two people said they were afraid to use their Legendary weapons with new stats because they were scared to get banned for exploiting. lol

AcidicVision.5498:

Chris said outright “We are not going to be releasing a new tier every three months” as a direct response to people screaming the sky was falling and posting “omgerz there will be a new tier every three months! ANet represents all that is evil and wrong! boo! boooooo!”

Yes, he did say that. I can say “I won’t have a birthday every 3 months” and it is obviously a true statement. It does not mean I will never have another birthday.

Plus, people are spouting anger because they feel lied to due to the perceived change in game direction … I doubt those upset are going to easily believe ANet promises again.

As Ike Turner said, “Don’t worry baby … it won’t happen again.”

If we are talking about the same blog concerning infusions, its for infusions to be more specialized with regard to new mechanics. They can be tailored to fit content. That doesn’t indicate a raw stat increase. But I won’t discount the chance you read something I missed.

The big equipment sites are already posting the new gear; GW2DB, et al. The infused items are shown as well. Better rarity = better stats … just like everywhere else in the game.

And Ascended are not the last tier for armor in the way they are not the last tier for weapons. There will be legendary armor. But just like Legendary weapons mirror Ascended stats, the Legendary Armor is expected to also.

So other than wildly pessimistic speculation and pure paranoia, there is still no good reason to stay or jump on that vertical progression/treadmill bandwagon.

I respectfully disagree. Infusions add to stats = true. Infusions will increase in power = true. That to me spells vertical progression/treadmill.

Keysha.2815:

Given the number of posts I am seeing with “Anet said this!” , “Anet said that!”, and “Anet LIED!!”, it is no wonder that the Anet employee refused to say anything.

Oh I don’t blame them either. Companies today take PR very seriously, and an employee saying something stupid is a major blow.

The gear isn’t even out yet. You don’t know how easy/hard anything will be to get.

The gear is on “the websites”, as are the screenshots from the merchant selling a lot of the gear. Granted it isn’t unlocked in game yet so things could have changed in a few hours since the postings/reviews but I’m very doubtful it’ll be easy to get. What good is vertical progression and a tier over exotics (but under Legendary) if you can get it as fast as Exotics? They want to slooooow everyone down with this step.

You don’t know if it will be a full gear set (Armour/weapons/accessories) or just a few items. You only know what you have read from the few posts by Anet and the myriad of posts by everyone else.

It will be a ring item, and a back item, plus infusions. The rest of the set will be added in future patches. As for “a few posts by Anet” … I accept Anet posts about the content to be .. well .. posts about the content. They said ring & back + rest of set to come, that is what I believe.

AcidicVision.5498:

Legendaries will share stats. It’s been said over and over this is to fill in a gap and accommodate a mechanic and new tiers won’t be added. To have progression you would have to keep going. To have a treadmill there has to be another tier, then another.

Infusions are going to keep getting increased. This was stated in a dev post. So instead of replacing armor, you’ll just keep replacing your infusion with better stat versions.

Nowhere did they say Ascended was the top tier of items (and therefore Legendary items would always be Ascended stats).

In the “German Post” mentioned elsewhere, when directly asked if Ascended was going to stay top tier, the ANet employee refused to say that Ascended was the last tier and that no further tiers were coming.

Three. Two of which saw the new gear grind and told me they’re not even downloading the client. The other I didn’t think was going to have time to play this weekend, but I invited just in case.

Galen Grey.4709:

I hear so many people complain that Orr is boring, you point out to them that even in a level 2 zone you can earn money and karma probably on the same level as Orr if you factor in time / risk to the rewards but they’d never contemplate leaving Orr cause they’re convinced its way more profitable.

Lower level zones, AFAIK, do not drop the rarity of loot that drops in Orr.

Sure, you can go to Queensdale and farm for Karma and coin super fast … but you’re only getting white, blues and greens (and many of them will be zone-leveled … so you’re level 80 getting level 5 blues).

Scaling for loot is funky.

In a situation like that, I’d assume it is an RMT transaction through the BLTP to avoid getting mailing gold from the RMT seller.