Guild Wars 2

Refia Montes.3205:

Torch 4 is no dps increase in pve unless you are running a condition build which was very uncommon (and still is) for mesmers in general because our class lends itsself the most to be run as power.

MoP is trash and gets only run because we literally have no better damage utility skill (which actually says a lot about what state our utility skills are in).

Phantasmal disenchanter is the only useful utility phantasm and is so niche that it rarely gets used since our autoattack and shatters already provides enough boon strip for most situations.

SoI only became good once quickness was turned into a boon, so basically shortly before HoT was released.

Portal is basically used to skip most pve content or pressure/defend points in spvp is indeed very powerful and one of the only reasons mesmer stays in certain metas.

The Prestige is a DPS increase due to having a small power scaling and direct damage while also not having a cast time. However it is important to note that The Prestige interrupts your auto chain, which means Mesmers should be using it at the start of the chain to optimize its usage. It is however a really small DPS increase, only about 1k.

MoP isn’t really that trash by Mesmer standards… (1 additional auto per 10 seconds lmao) but yeah in comparison it’s pretty bad to other damaging utilities like Glyph of Storms, DH and ranger traps.

Phantasmal Enchanter is great but it is outclassed by Arcane Thievery when there’s a need to boonstrip (99 nightmare primarily cause of Protection). Other than that most other encounters only need autos to boonstrip.

well i can accept no dmg utilities , but we need a power passive signet , maybe moa signet

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

Zenith.7301:

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

i said it times already
it is harder but its not really that hard to do rotation in raid boss and get higher dps .
you kept skipping this point . anyway .
gw2 in general isnt that hard , DH is one of easier dps . come on

No one said gw2 is hard i just said that this build is prob 1 step from world boss aaing whereas guard is a semi proper class with a rotation.

Guard has a rotation because it has utilities worth a kitten . Mesmer autoattacks because nothing outside blurred frenzy and auto do kitten for DPS.

Mesmer utilities suck outside chrono wells.

answer my question do you seriously think DH rotation is that hard to pull off to get higher number than power mes ?

I believe dh’s rotation requires more effort therefor id say its “harder” than the power msmer “rotation” in an actual raid or cm fractal scenario.

you still didnt answer my question .
its harder , but do you think normal raid players wont be able to play that rotation?
like really . how much effort ? do you ever play dh in raid ?

Zenith.7301:

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

i said it times already
it is harder but its not really that hard to do rotation in raid boss and get higher dps .
you kept skipping this point . anyway .
gw2 in general isnt that hard , DH is one of easier dps . come on

No one said gw2 is hard i just said that this build is prob 1 step from world boss aaing whereas guard is a semi proper class with a rotation.

Guard has a rotation because it has utilities worth a kitten . Mesmer autoattacks because nothing outside blurred frenzy and auto do kitten for DPS.

Mesmer utilities suck outside chrono wells.

answer my question do you seriously think DH rotation is that hard to pull off to get higher number than power mes ?

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

Dead last in dps on a golem and dead last on an actual raid isnt really the same.

True, but banking on the fact that realistic damage scenarios being in your favor versus a static and always similar test scenario is very foolish. Especially when the class you are playing has contradictory mechanics and a long windup time due to having to summon part of its damage. What’s your point?

zealex.9410:

Esplen.3940:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

But something that took you 3 hours to cook you can finish in 10 minutes if you keep at it.

/s

I suppose you missed the meaning of that What im saying is that practice makes better.

No, he didn’t miss your meaning. You never talked about practice but instead are assuming arenanet are going to bring us some magical buffs which will improve the class. Guess what, if everything is fine and people are content with the crapfest of mirage as it is now, those buffs will never come.

Actually those buffs might never come regardless since arenanet are happy with mirages current state. That alone would have every semi-intelligent persons alarmbells go off.

Statement that anet is fine with current mirage? The community ahs been quite vocal about mirage’s underwhelming performance. What i dissagree with the general community on is that mirage needs tweaks and polish rather tha fundemental reworks. Also implied that its a matter of practice.

As for dps my dps isnt comming from me doing complex rotations. It comes from me summoning my phantasms at the start then aa my way to 30k. A 30k thats way easier to achieve than with power engi power thief guard ele condi dps/ps warr etc. Thats my point.

Everything is a matter of practice, that is valid for every class thus every class can be expected to improve.

Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.

Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.

Sure engi has a very tough rotation, that’s bound to change with Holo. Necromancer isn’t meta for many fights too, might change with scourge. No mesmer will take damage placements from any semi decent warrior, elementalist, guardian, thief or even ranger.

Maybe actually play the classes you are commenting on first. You clearly have not played guardian, condi warrior or thief in raids.

The opener doesnt hold insane value in a raid where a boss kill can take anywhere from 2 mins to 4-5.

I have played thief and giard in raids and i have played power mesmer in fractals ( a little).

Its much easier to stay on a respectable number during stressful phases since alot of your dmg doesnt need you to be the one constandly attacking or landing ground targets.

Your dps also moves with the boss an upsaude for the lack of good aoe.

Right, so let me get this straight:

- power mesmer is a thing since august 8th
- guardian is a thing in raids mostly since august 8th (I did run mine 1nce or twice before that but doubt that pugs ran a lot of guardians)
- thief while having decent damage even before August 8th were usually not meta or didn’t get taken along, at least not for all 4 wings

You have been very vocal about mesmer pve on the forums for someone who basically has 0 clue of what he is talking about (even about chronomancer nerfs)… Don’t you think it might be time to first gather some experience on mesmer and other classes in an endgame enviroment before explaining to others how the class works or should be balanced?

Fyi I’m maining mesmer and warrior in raids (full clears of all wings multiple times 10+ each), have run guardian and revenant through multiple raids (guardian 3+ full clears of all wings, revenant back when wing1 was only available 10+ clears). You don’t see me harping around on the elementalist or druid boards about how their classes should get balanced do you?

Neither u see me talk about other classes than mesmer.

but you claim its so hard to get dps DH rotation done in raid.
also from your posts , we all saw you lack knowledge of fractal and raid .

No, i claim getting golem dps is harder with guard than it is with power dps mesmer.

i said it times already
it is harder but its not really that hard to do rotation in raid boss and get higher dps .
you kept skipping this point . anyway .
gw2 in general isnt that hard , DH is one of easier dps . come on

green plum.7514:

Cyninja.2954:

So my question stands: What do you care? No matter what is done, mirage will remain viable for open world content. It already is just like most builds and classes which have an autoattack.

I understand (and appreciate) that you are passionate about the class you play. However, I must say, that lashing out in that fashion is hardly constructive or helpful. You are absolutely right that I am not competent in discussing current balance issues of Mesmer or Mirage. This is also why I am purposively abstaining from discussing balance in any shape or form. What I said was a) I disagree with the statement that base Mesmer has better damage evades (simply because it has less evade sources and b) that I consider the Mirage design to be fun the way I play the game. I don’t know how you read “Mirage is balanced, leave it as it is” into this. Sure, I would be disappointed if ANet chooses to change this design to something less fun for balance reasons, but that is completely orthogonal to this conversation. As to balance in general: I am as interested in having balanced classes as anyone else in the games, simply for symmetry considerations. If a particular class systematically underpefrorms/overperforms (or is seen as such), the community mood becomes toxic and unhealthy, which hardly makes an enjoyable environment.

“ that lashing out in that fashion is hardly constructive or helpful. ”
said by the person who jumped in a thread without any serious test on mirage and knowledge about mesmer but hey "i found it fun "and ignore all the hard facts other said .

much constructive and helpful lol

Carighan.6758:

The underlying idea is sound. Trade defensive value (the movement) for offensive (the ambush).

That’s where the good ends. The ambushes are so badly balanced that most of the time I wish I could AA instead, and as a result the gain in damage can’t remotely hope to keep up with the loss of defense.

Further, beyond normal dodging our ability to gain cloak through mirrors is just… poor. Generation is astonishingly bad, and they last ~3x-4x too short. Should be 8-12 seconds.

play holosmith or scourge or spellbreaker seems to be best solution to me until anet rework mirage from ground .

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

Dead last in dps on a golem and dead last on an actual raid isnt really the same.

True, but banking on the fact that realistic damage scenarios being in your favor versus a static and always similar test scenario is very foolish. Especially when the class you are playing has contradictory mechanics and a long windup time due to having to summon part of its damage. What’s your point?

zealex.9410:

Esplen.3940:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

But something that took you 3 hours to cook you can finish in 10 minutes if you keep at it.

/s

I suppose you missed the meaning of that What im saying is that practice makes better.

No, he didn’t miss your meaning. You never talked about practice but instead are assuming arenanet are going to bring us some magical buffs which will improve the class. Guess what, if everything is fine and people are content with the crapfest of mirage as it is now, those buffs will never come.

Actually those buffs might never come regardless since arenanet are happy with mirages current state. That alone would have every semi-intelligent persons alarmbells go off.

Statement that anet is fine with current mirage? The community ahs been quite vocal about mirage’s underwhelming performance. What i dissagree with the general community on is that mirage needs tweaks and polish rather tha fundemental reworks. Also implied that its a matter of practice.

As for dps my dps isnt comming from me doing complex rotations. It comes from me summoning my phantasms at the start then aa my way to 30k. A 30k thats way easier to achieve than with power engi power thief guard ele condi dps/ps warr etc. Thats my point.

Everything is a matter of practice, that is valid for every class thus every class can be expected to improve.

Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.

Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.

Sure engi has a very tough rotation, that’s bound to change with Holo. Necromancer isn’t meta for many fights too, might change with scourge. No mesmer will take damage placements from any semi decent warrior, elementalist, guardian, thief or even ranger.

Maybe actually play the classes you are commenting on first. You clearly have not played guardian, condi warrior or thief in raids.

The opener doesnt hold insane value in a raid where a boss kill can take anywhere from 2 mins to 4-5.

I have played thief and giard in raids and i have played power mesmer in fractals ( a little).

Its much easier to stay on a respectable number during stressful phases since alot of your dmg doesnt need you to be the one constandly attacking or landing ground targets.

Your dps also moves with the boss an upsaude for the lack of good aoe.

Right, so let me get this straight:

- power mesmer is a thing since august 8th
- guardian is a thing in raids mostly since august 8th (I did run mine 1nce or twice before that but doubt that pugs ran a lot of guardians)
- thief while having decent damage even before August 8th were usually not meta or didn’t get taken along, at least not for all 4 wings

You have been very vocal about mesmer pve on the forums for someone who basically has 0 clue of what he is talking about (even about chronomancer nerfs)… Don’t you think it might be time to first gather some experience on mesmer and other classes in an endgame enviroment before explaining to others how the class works or should be balanced?

Fyi I’m maining mesmer and warrior in raids (full clears of all wings multiple times 10+ each), have run guardian and revenant through multiple raids (guardian 3+ full clears of all wings, revenant back when wing1 was only available 10+ clears). You don’t see me harping around on the elementalist or druid boards about how their classes should get balanced do you?

Neither u see me talk about other classes than mesmer.

but you claim its so hard to get dps DH rotation done in raid.
also from your posts , we all saw you lack knowledge of fractal and raid .

Durzlla.6295:

musu.9205:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

Dead last in dps on a golem and dead last on an actual raid isnt really the same.

True, but banking on the fact that realistic damage scenarios being in your favor versus a static and always similar test scenario is very foolish. Especially when the class you are playing has contradictory mechanics and a long windup time due to having to summon part of its damage. What’s your point?

zealex.9410:

Esplen.3940:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

But something that took you 3 hours to cook you can finish in 10 minutes if you keep at it.

/s

I suppose you missed the meaning of that What im saying is that practice makes better.

No, he didn’t miss your meaning. You never talked about practice but instead are assuming arenanet are going to bring us some magical buffs which will improve the class. Guess what, if everything is fine and people are content with the crapfest of mirage as it is now, those buffs will never come.

Actually those buffs might never come regardless since arenanet are happy with mirages current state. That alone would have every semi-intelligent persons alarmbells go off.

Statement that anet is fine with current mirage? The community ahs been quite vocal about mirage’s underwhelming performance. What i dissagree with the general community on is that mirage needs tweaks and polish rather tha fundemental reworks. Also implied that its a matter of practice.

As for dps my dps isnt comming from me doing complex rotations. It comes from me summoning my phantasms at the start then aa my way to 30k. A 30k thats way easier to achieve than with power engi power thief guard ele condi dps/ps warr etc. Thats my point.

Everything is a matter of practice, that is valid for every class thus every class can be expected to improve.

Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.

Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.

Sure engi has a very tough rotation, that’s bound to change with Holo. Necromancer isn’t meta for many fights too, might change with scourge. No mesmer will take damage placements from any semi decent warrior, elementalist, guardian, thief or even ranger.

Maybe actually play the classes you are commenting on first. You clearly have not played guardian, condi warrior or thief in raids.

The opener doesnt hold insane value in a raid where a boss kill can take anywhere from 2 mins to 4-5.

I have played thief and giard in raids and i have played power mesmer in fractals ( a little).

Its much easier to stay on a respectable number during stressful phases since alot of your dmg doesnt need you to be the one constandly attacking or landing ground targets.

Your dps also moves with the boss an upsaude for the lack of good aoe.

I doubt you really played raid that often . the opener matters for vg , sab , kc , xera ,whole wing 4 (except carin). and it still matters but not much for sloth and gors .

still you didn’t answer my question :
how you clean shards on xera , orb on gors etc etc with dps mesmer .
people don’t run dps mesmer for many reasons . your dps mes takes one slot then rest of your team have to make up for that lacking of aoe . it’s a huge problem for boss like xera .

power mes in fractal lol is even trashier than in raid .

And guard rotation is not much harder anyway . what’s stressful phases you can’t do higher number on DH , except that very situational matt .

Don’t disagree with most of your post, but in my raiding experience orbs on Gors are normally only dealt with by one or two people with AoE, like if you’re a condi ranger you just don’t touch the orbs because you’d be kitten at it, same with Hammer DH (so I’m told), so I wouldn’t use that as a reason for power mes being bad…

But other than that I agree, especially with power Mesmer fractals, the only reason it works in raid is because everything you fight is alive long enough for your phantasms to ramp up AND get summoned, but if you’ve got a PS warrior maybe it’d be alright? That’s the only way I can think of.

yeah i know , but for gors if you play mes dps , other one or two dps would have to do that job anyway . dps DH doesnt use hammer , and it has scepter which can easily help clean some orbs . usually other classes beside ele wont really do orb job , my point was if you really want to play necro , condi engi , dh etc , you could do orb just fine .when it comes to mesmer , its impossible .

Fiskerton.2739:

Durzlla.6295:

Fiskerton.2739:

musu.9205:

superspeed does not work backward

Use the about-face button, or use the right click camera control.

But then I can’t run away while channeling Conflunding Images/throwing out a skill at an enemy and I’m literally just dodging worse in every way than base Mesmer instead of taking advantage of the evade frames I can do whatever I want in.

But you wouldn’t have been able to do those things dodging anyway. With Mirage Cloak, you can cast utility skills (especially heals and signets). With right click camera control, you can get a feel for how much of an angle you need to run to still keep a channel on an enemy, meaning you can run out of an aoe a lot faster, while invulnerable, and still be channeling on an enemy. A lot of times you want to dodge forward anyway to get in range for a shatter. You can combine Mirage Cloak with the ambushes (sword ambush for jump forward, scepter ambush for blink back) to move out of aoe while still attacking. There are a lot of things possible that simple roll dodging won’t let you do.

for god sake
stay on topic you started
you said dodge on mirage with superspeed blabalaba useful
we said you are wrong
can u guys please , don’t even start those pointless mirror ambush etc things

Fiskerton.2739:

The minor grandmaster gives you superspeed every time you get mirage cloak (ie every time you dodge). you can literally walk the same distance as a dodge roll during this time while being invulnerable, but not interrupting anything you were doing. With Mirage you have to be moving pretty much constantly.

I agree most of the ambushes are kinda underwhelming, but they’re mostly just autos with something additional added. They’re not meant to be nukes or individual abilities, especially since they’re not cooldown gated, just endurance gated. Vigor is a lot easier to get than alacrity. The only thing I would change is to remove the root on scepter ambush.

When I tried Mirage, I basically focused on dealing as much condition damage along with Dune Cloak trait. Mirage can stack confusion like a mofo, I think it’s severely underestimated.

In any case, two days of testing isn’t enough to understand Mirage. It attempts to use things that haven’t been used in mesmer before.

here we go again
superspeed does not work backward
maybe you guys should do a little bit more test before you came here and tell us , we don’t understand mirage lol

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

zealex.9410:

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

zealex.9410:

Adding a blink would defeat the purpose of the new dodge.

Why?
It should be quite easy to implement:
- you press dodge key without movement key depressed – Mirage cloak works as it is now
- you press dodge key WITH movement key depressed – you blink in the direction as you would dodge

The purpos of mirage cloack is to let u use skills during the evade frame blinking would take that away. And standing still to be able to use a skill would just be another blured frenzy. Instead just make superspeed work on every direction.

blink does not have a frame , blink is instantly what you are talking about ?

Blink will interupt some action depending how long in the channel u are and what not. Plus blinking could also interupt ressing and fail to stomps etc.

nope , it does not interrupt any meaningful attack from mesmer.
and it does not interrupt res or stomp lol .

are you sure you are not thinking of decoy instead of blink ?

you can list one or record in game .

Carighan.6758:

Esplen.3940:

Again, you’re judging the entire product on one topping.

And again, why pre-order? It’s a net benefit to not pre-order. If it turns out that PoF is released unplayable and to get it working they have to disable 4 elite specs entirely until after christmas, you didn’t waste money on it.

Is that likely? No ofc not.

But is there a benefit to throwing money on a developer on goodwill alone? Nope. Might as well hold off and see how the finished product stacks up against its cost.

well mirage is worst thing about pof so far , and most of my friends bought pof already even tho i fear pof map seems to be more grindy , but overall its ok to preorder .

zealex.9410:

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

zealex.9410:

Adding a blink would defeat the purpose of the new dodge.

Why?
It should be quite easy to implement:
- you press dodge key without movement key depressed – Mirage cloak works as it is now
- you press dodge key WITH movement key depressed – you blink in the direction as you would dodge

The purpos of mirage cloack is to let u use skills during the evade frame blinking would take that away. And standing still to be able to use a skill would just be another blured frenzy. Instead just make superspeed work on every direction.

blink does not have a frame , blink is instantly what you are talking about ?

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

zealex.9410:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

Dead last in dps on a golem and dead last on an actual raid isnt really the same.

True, but banking on the fact that realistic damage scenarios being in your favor versus a static and always similar test scenario is very foolish. Especially when the class you are playing has contradictory mechanics and a long windup time due to having to summon part of its damage. What’s your point?

zealex.9410:

Esplen.3940:

Levetty.1279:

Infact can we get into this great delusion that Anet are going to buff the numbers? It took 5 years for them to give us a decent damage % trait and we are still dead last in DPS builds, even without taking into account how our mechanics don’t mesh with PvE. We are still waiting for CD reductions, buffs to weak auto attacks and the laughable damage of the weak attacks slapped on to Phantasm summoning skills.

But something that took you 3 hours to cook you can finish in 10 minutes if you keep at it.

/s

I suppose you missed the meaning of that What im saying is that practice makes better.

No, he didn’t miss your meaning. You never talked about practice but instead are assuming arenanet are going to bring us some magical buffs which will improve the class. Guess what, if everything is fine and people are content with the crapfest of mirage as it is now, those buffs will never come.

Actually those buffs might never come regardless since arenanet are happy with mirages current state. That alone would have every semi-intelligent persons alarmbells go off.

Statement that anet is fine with current mirage? The community ahs been quite vocal about mirage’s underwhelming performance. What i dissagree with the general community on is that mirage needs tweaks and polish rather tha fundemental reworks. Also implied that its a matter of practice.

As for dps my dps isnt comming from me doing complex rotations. It comes from me summoning my phantasms at the start then aa my way to 30k. A 30k thats way easier to achieve than with power engi power thief guard ele condi dps/ps warr etc. Thats my point.

Everything is a matter of practice, that is valid for every class thus every class can be expected to improve.

Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.

Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.

Sure engi has a very tough rotation, that’s bound to change with Holo. Necromancer isn’t meta for many fights too, might change with scourge. No mesmer will take damage placements from any semi decent warrior, elementalist, guardian, thief or even ranger.

Maybe actually play the classes you are commenting on first. You clearly have not played guardian, condi warrior or thief in raids.

The opener doesnt hold insane value in a raid where a boss kill can take anywhere from 2 mins to 4-5.

I have played thief and giard in raids and i have played power mesmer in fractals ( a little).

Its much easier to stay on a respectable number during stressful phases since alot of your dmg doesnt need you to be the one constandly attacking or landing ground targets.

Your dps also moves with the boss an upsaude for the lack of good aoe.

I doubt you really played raid that often . the opener matters for vg , sab , kc , xera ,whole wing 4 (except carin). and it still matters but not much for sloth and gors .

still you didn’t answer my question :
how you clean shards on xera , orb on gors etc etc with dps mesmer .
people don’t run dps mesmer for many reasons . your dps mes takes one slot then rest of your team have to make up for that lacking of aoe . it’s a huge problem for boss like xera .

power mes in fractal lol is even trashier than in raid .

And guard rotation is not much harder anyway . what’s stressful phases you can’t do higher number on DH , except that very situational matt .

zealex.9410:

musu.9205:

@zealex.9410
which raid boss you feel that retarget will help a lot ? also did someone in this thread or other already tell you that your imagined uselessness does not work ?

require shatter to gain some rng weak bonus is not interact with shatter .20s cd , 33% rng on top of shatter lol

illusion dies when target dies , nothing to do with their hp . in new fractal , most bosses can only be retargeted after mini boss dies. so yeah this is huge mechanical flaw .

you are happy with a noob friendly build which core condi /power mes already offer and they are exactly same playstyle for entire class ? well you can be happy with that . but for many of us who raid often ,whats the point of this elite spec for pve ?it only often 2 passive traits for raids .

and can mirage clean shards for xera , can mirage do cannon , can mirage clean anything in most raid bosses , no you can’t .other classes could help much more while mirage only does single target dps and not great at it .yeah its noob friendly , but if you want smoother raid clean , you will play other dps . you can fill dps spot with other single class but u can’t do this with mirage for most bosses .

thief is locked into one action that is a kittening evading .

mirage does not offer more dmg avoidance(actually it has less dmg avoidance ) , it is supposed to make your dodge more useful but it failed horribly . nor does this matter for raid anyway . and in few boss fights , mirage dodge will be a huge downgrade as if it isn’t already (matt , non distortion green vg, sloth, and whole wing 4)

remember anet said they want mesmer being high skill ceiling class as excuse to nerf mesmer , what is high skill ceiling for dps mesmer build , u can’t improve over a stupid AI build.

and did you actually test that that two retarget skill ?

did you actually test Crystal Sands ("hardly a rework require ") its not an actual aoe and it hardly hits for full stacks .

Because increasing the hitbox of the shards in crystal sands would be a total rework yeah right.

The synergies are there even if you find them weak.

its not just hitbox thing , it got blocked too often by random stuff or some hidden hitbox . also it only really works on pure flat place?well this is not a problem for raid but still ? .its only worth its cd if it hits full stacks .how about just making it a plain aoe .

what are the synergies ? you listed things , i proved that they did not work without mechanic change .
not to mention problem with phants .
axe 3 and iambush teleport you to random place , there is nothing to do with numbers.

shatter still deletes your dps , but mirage has traits to get mirror from shatter without meaningful clone generation . how its not mechanic issue ? unless you buff shatter dmg to broken op .
how those things make sense to you ?

and you talked about how useful retarget is , then me and someone both proved you are hyped over nothing .(you were saying nightmare boss 1 and 2 , shatter boss 2 and 3 . and few raid bosses .can you just admit you were wrong for this part ?

can you record you play mirage next time , and lets see how things work for you .

green plum.7514:

musu.9205:

IH does not work for power build .

Wouldn’t IH give you more clones with sword?

musu.9205:

and Shards of Glass
first it has 33% rng
20s icd if i remember ?
also it triggers on shatter skill usage not per illusion shattered

I didn’t notice anything about an internal cooldown (not saying that you are wrong). 33% is reasonable given that you can Mind Wrack every 10 seconds or so. The fact is that I always had a bunch of clones around without using any clone-generating utilities, simply by smashing auto-attack.

1. nope
2.33% rng is never reasonable on 10s cd skill usage which also deletes all your dps even 33% does happen , its little gain .
how is that reasonable ?
3.if you do not use any other clone source but sword ambush , it will offer you 2 clone over 10s . that is not a lot .i meant you can’t even have enough for full mind crack dmg .

clearly you did not test stuff but just jump around with teleport .you should play a thief instead , really .

green plum.7514:

Cyninja.2954:

Since no matter what they do to Mirage it will work in open world pve, who cares?

That’s aproximately what your statement comes down to.

Now since you obviously don’t care about the balance state of Mirage, what do you care if arenanet addresses some of the issues so the build actually works in enviroments where it matters? It won’t affect your gameplay in anyway and at best might make things a little more harmonious and easy.

Its strange what you read into my post. I certainly have nothing agains Mirage being viable in higher tiers of gameplay. I was merely commenting on the original post.

What I am saying is that mechanic-wise, at least from my perspective (melee power playstyle), Mirage is a lot of fun and makes sense. They should definitely improve the damage though, it is a bit lacklustre given the supposed role.

what exactly makes sense for you ?

your build has some traits which doesn’t work for power build like IH
and its mechanic-wise fun ?

if you don’t have anything to back up your highly personally opinion ,and we all knew you think it’s fun now , could you not argue or argument sake .

green plum.7514:

musu.9205:

only reliable mobility is sword ambush , but why you play power mirage in pve ?

Because its fun For condi melee, I prefer Firebrand, much more satisfying.

As to mobility: Jaunt is strictly superior to Blink (stunrbeak aside), at least for the way I play the game.

you can call any useless stuff fun . that does not change anything for rest of us .
I mean , its ok you personally found it fun to play which many mesmer main here would disagree . But it’s not an solid argument when we are discussing which works which doesn’t .

green plum.7514:

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

green plum.7514:

I had a lot of fun in the open world PVE with a power Mirage, running berserker gear and sword/sword.

Can you post a build please?

I don’t remember exactly, I was just playing around a bit, no serious theorycraftign or anything. I believe it was Dueling (with Fencer’s Finesse and Superiority complex) and Illusions (1-1-2). With Mirage traits, I was using Shards of Glass and Infinite Horizon (all Adept traits are kind of pointless for a power build IMO). The idea was to use the sword ambush skill a lot and then shatter as much as you can, which would churn out new mirrors, which would give you new cloaks and clones (in combination with sword ambush).

No idea how “viable” it is, but to me it felt like a base Mesmer on steroids. I started playing Mesmer because I like the idea of a swordsmen who blinks around the battlefield like crazy , and I also like the purply blurry visuals, and Mirage definitely delivers on that

IH does not work for power build .

and Shards of Glass
first it has 33% rng
20s icd if i remember ?
also it triggers on shatter skill usage not per illusion shattered

green plum.7514:

While I understand your point about movement on dodge, there is also a reverse side. Dodging in place also means that I don’t need to get back in position. Which is great when you are using melee attacks. Using sword, I could stay on point much more reliably. And the new elite provides more then enough mobility if a blink is called for.

again and again , elite is not a solution especially when mirage dodge is supposed to be upgrade to normal dodge and now we have to use an elite slot to deal with the huge downside lol . not to mention that elite does have cd .

where are more than enough mobility ? if you mean unreliable mobility which usually teleport you into random aoe then yes .(Iambush and axe 3 )

Dodge roll is much much reliable,it travels further overtime than those teleport from mirage and it doesn’t take any weapon slot or skill slot .something fancy like an teleport doesn’t mean they are practically more effective .

only reliable mobility is sword ambush , but why you play power mirage in pve ?
meh dmg comparing with core mes
meh defense comparing with chrono
no power aoe

if you want a leap in open world , have an ele friend or buy some consumables .

i will play Holosmith

Esplen.3940:

Cyninja.2954:

Your 30k dps are clearly dps golem values and it becomes clear you’ve never actually played power mesmer in a raid, I have.

Guess what, even with a simple rotation which takes about 10 seconds to reach peak damage (which is insanely long compared to classes like elementalist or guardian who peak at the start of their rotation) we are dead last on just about every boss unless your dps are terrible players.

That’s not entirely true. In almost every raid fight there are mechanics you have to deal with. As a Power Mesmer (and Condi Mesmer) you can focus on the mechanics and still have DPS. Additionally, for fights like Sabetha, you don’t lose ramp time for each boss because your Phants stay (Condi still needs to ramp condis, though).

I would say that Power Mes is best run vs: VG and Sab, while doing decently at KC, Sloth, Cairn, MO, and being decent at best against Matthias.

For KC, you shouldn’t be top DPS, because if you are then you need better squadmates.

For VG and Sab, it’s “acceptable” because of the mechanics. VG has constant movement and requires CC, both of which Power Mesmer laughs at. For Sabetha, you can res, kick bombs, throw bombs, and avoid flame walls without hurting your DPS. Additionally, your Phants will retarget onto the new bosses when they come in, and then back onto Sabetha when she returns.

Sloth is nice because you have a lot of utilities available to you, and if you need to dodge/res/poison/etc, you’ll still have DPS. If you eat a Mushroom, however, you have to restart your ramp. It’s notable that it’s easy to hit higher relative DPS on Sloth because you have constant DPS while focusing on surviving. However, a selfish build on a fight like Sloth is not always great, and Power Mesmer lacks self-sufficiency, so you’ll need to be on good terms with your healers to stay alive if things go sour.

Cairn allows you to do good damage (easily top), but the downside to Cairn is if you accidentally get Shared Agony you will be spamming mantras for a minute. It is entirely possible to force yourself not to get Shared Agony, but things happen and losing 55% of your DPS for a minute is pretty harsh.

MO you’re able to get good DPS and move without hampering your rotation too much (you might cancel a few BF, big deal). However, only 60% of your DPS is cleave, so it might be better to run other damage dealers.

Matthias is awkward because there’s so many mechanics. As a Power Mes (not Chrono) you’ll have free reign over your utilities (Feedback, Signet of Domination) to support the team. However, there will be many points where you don’t attack due to the way the fight works. Thus, your DPS will heavily rely on RNG whereas running Condi allows you to constantly damage (unless you need to do Poison/Corrupts). Typically, Power and Condi will have the same damage output here, unlike most fights where Power is generally better.

Honestly, the only people in raids that peak faster than me are Guardians and after ~20s my DPS matches or tops theirs (PF ramp time). Elementalists definitely can surpass Power Mes DPS, but it requires skill (something most players, including me, lack) and also opportunities for things such as precasting (see: KC burn phase).

Check out this raid report from ~3 hours ago. First phase, I hit just under 29k DPS, although VG phase 1 is a golem battle. In the second and third phase, because I have to deal with mechanics (see: moving, avoiding blues while moving, CC) my DPS drops but sits around 24k.

Admittedly, some of the other DPS players do have to go to Green circles while I just twiddle my thumbs and auto attack, but not every DPS player is doing that, and it’s usually DPS that can still do something from afar.

well i did get high number in actual raid boss , but usually my DH does higher dps.

the thing is , yeah power /condi mes has easiest rotation , but most classes don’t get much it harder .many raid players will move on and improve on other classes for higher dps (not to mention high burst aoe dps allows raid group skip some mechanic ). also other reasons :

you can’t do anything but dps on boss . therefore , your raid group will need other dps to do the job like shard clean etc .

mesmer dps rotation is easier but other classes will make raid run much smoother . in other word : you are getting carried if you play dps mes for many boss fights except for matt even your number is highest .

i’m still waiting for a high skill ceiling dps build /spec for mesmer to come which we can use our shatter in rotation .

@zealex.9410
which raid boss you feel that retarget will help a lot ? also did someone in this thread or other already tell you that your imagined uselessness does not work ?

require shatter to gain some rng weak bonus is not interact with shatter .20s cd , 33% rng on top of shatter lol

illusion dies when target dies , nothing to do with their hp . in new fractal , most bosses can only be retargeted after mini boss dies. so yeah this is huge mechanical flaw .

you are happy with a noob friendly build which core condi /power mes already offer and they are exactly same playstyle for entire class ? well you can be happy with that . but for many of us who raid often ,whats the point of this elite spec for pve ?it only often 2 passive traits for raids .

and can mirage clean shards for xera , can mirage do cannon , can mirage clean anything in most raid bosses , no you can’t .other classes could help much more while mirage only does single target dps and not great at it .yeah its noob friendly , but if you want smoother raid clean , you will play other dps . you can fill dps spot with other single class but u can’t do this with mirage for most bosses .

thief is locked into one action that is a kittening evading .

mirage does not offer more dmg avoidance(actually it has less dmg avoidance ) , it is supposed to make your dodge more useful but it failed horribly . nor does this matter for raid anyway . and in few boss fights , mirage dodge will be a huge downgrade as if it isn’t already (matt , non distortion green vg, sloth, and whole wing 4)

remember anet said they want mesmer being high skill ceiling class as excuse to nerf mesmer , what is high skill ceiling for dps mesmer build , u can’t improve over a stupid AI build.

and did you actually test that that two retarget skill ?

did you actually test Crystal Sands ("hardly a rework require ") its not an actual aoe and it hardly hits for full stacks .

and where did your 70% come from .we could list every single ambush skill / trait / axe skill . good luck to find 70% things that work .

Axe AA – number problem
axe 2 and axe 3 mechanical problem

ambush :
sword – number problem
rest are mechanical problem
(you can buff gs ambush sky high and call that a number problem i guess )

heal+ utilities -mechanical problem
elite – number problem

traits
they are literally mess . but let’s say Dune Cloak ,Mirrored Axes and Mirage Mantle , this 3 trait do work .but may need some number buff .

rest are mechanical broken either require mirage use shatter or clone or 33% rng on top of shatter , which is on top off very limited illusion generation ,or randomly require regen to reduce dmg condi , or broken gm that is Elusive Mind.

so there are like 6 things from entire elite spec that actually work .
are they 70% of mirage , i don’t know ,since mirage lives by its name we have to stare at that meaningless mirage to imagine things it might be able to do in the future.

zealex.9410:

Levetty.1279:

zealex.9410:

Cyninja.2954:

I find it hilarious how even the most advent defenders of Mirage in this thread by page 3 have started to throw in things like:

- yes it’s clunky but I like it
- stuff can get buffed
- they might change it
- it’s a tradeoff
- people should be less negative, I’m sure arenanet will fix things

Must be hard to defend an elite when the best arguments one can muster when confronted by some basic facts is:“I’m sure they’ll come around to fixing stuff”.

What do people actually think why there is criticism and why people are speaking up? It’s so that arenanet take notice because their trackrecord of fixing, balancing or even keeping mesmer basic functional is abysmal.

Lmao no one is saying mirage is perfectly viable and balanced.

There are lots of people who are denying the huge glaring mechanical flaws of mirage or the lazy, uninspired traits and think just tweeking a number here or there will fix it. Including you.

Yeah because i dont see these “huge mechanical flaws”. I believe the spec is 70% there and just needs further polish.

mirage main mechanic-mirror which doesn’t work

and that is huge mechanical flaws .

no interact with shatter but traits require shatter to gain bonus for ambush or mirror , check .

no way to generate clone but require clone + a GM trait IH for ambush to be meaningful bonus dmg , check .

superspeed on dodge but it doesn’t work backward or sidewalk ,this makes whole mirage dodge a downgrade to normal dodge in half of situation , also it takes a minor trait for that , check .

if those are not huge mechanical flaw to you , i don’t know what is huge ?

not to mention ,as a dps spec , mirage does not fix many many core mes problem to deal meaningful dps in pve .
long setup time , check
illusion dies with target , check
retarget does not work on most raid bosses , check (i know many are hyped for this one without thinking actual boss fight )
illusions don’t get any bonus from sigil or rune , check

on top of those , mirage does not offer new playstyle for pve , you just replace chaos line with mirage line and take passive traits for small numbers gain. tho its not huge mechanical flaw , it failed one of elite spec purpose : offer new playstyle .
you can argue it may offer some sort of new but far weaker build for pvp , thing is mirage line does not have build defining traits like chrono line or illusion line does .

Abelisk.4527:

I’ve already made a raid build and a viable PvP build with Mirage all within an hour…

What I really like is the playstyle between PvE Mirage and PvP/WvW Mirage is vastly different. For PvE you summon phantasms, spam axe attacks and ambush attacks, never shatter. For PvP/WvW you do a mix of ambushes, phantasm spawns, interrupts, shatters, making you be pretty much insane. I can share both builds if you guys are interested.

A few tweaks to some stuff and Mirage will be chockful of build diversity.

That build is just core condi mesmer build with a bit bonus from mirage . nothing vastly here .
as long as we saw trait we knew it .

side note : i prefer dom line over duel , Dom line offers boon removal(insanely useful) , stun (help you land your burst )and 15-30% burst buff for a power shatter build.
duel has vigor and fury ,15-25% critic dmg buff vs 50% hp ,overall Dom dmg buff is more reliable while offering more than two boons.

Imperadordf.2687:

Thanks for the advice! I’ll probably add you and try the things you said. I also heard Bunker Chrono is pretty good, but couldn’t find any builds – guides about it. Is there a guide about it?

Bunker chrono build died for almost 1.5 year . it was broken op anyway .
well now you can still build a okish bunker chrono , but it isn’t ideal ,coz bunker don’t have good group heal or group condi removal .old bunker build works due to quickness res and well of precognition both are gutted entirely.

sad thing is only standard meta chrono condi shatter build actually works now .
tho for fun you can try to replace inspiration with duel line for new ineptitude .but it lacks sustain and condition removal .you can also play power shatter build , high burst but very very glassy .And those off meta build also require much more skill to play .

and losing game in a team based pvp game is really normal .there are so many deciding factors in a match . you can find some good mesmer video and learn their trick or how they time their burst etc .Also rotation for a mesmer is quite important. good rotation on a mesmer with portal could easily carry your team .

Cyninja.2954:

I find it hilarious how even the most advent defenders of Mirage in this thread by page 3 have started to throw in things like:

- yes it’s clunky but I like it
- stuff can get buffed
- they might change it
- it’s a tradeoff
- people should be less negative, I’m sure arenanet will fix things

Must be hard to defend an elite when the best arguments one can muster when confronted by some basic facts is:“I’m sure they’ll come around to fixing stuff”.

What do people actually think why there is criticism and why people are speaking up? It’s so that arenanet take notice because their trackrecord of fixing, balancing or even keeping mesmer basic functional is abysmal.

anet will notice people who speak up and nerf chrono .

here is why

bad pvp players will call nerf to mirage even it’s mesmer which kills them(they already did )
guard and rev player will demand nerf to chrono so they can have their support spot in raid group(they already did ) .

we are not ele or war , the usefulness of chrono is always gimmick quickness in pve, and in pvp after many serious nerf , it only stays in meta due to portal and moa and slowly became thief food again .

many people were saying 100% quickness uptime is unhealthy to game .truth is if they want balanced offensive support , they have to balance dps output first . but many people believe that healthy game balance crap (same people were saying druid need unique offensive support lol) .

If mesmer main still act like those positive cool dudes (some are actually thief main but whatever), then we will certainly go back to our dark time.

SOI for pve
chronophantasma for pvp

this 2 things are gap from wanted chrono to abyss.
other classes don’t rely on such gimmick things to fix their core mechanic to be useful or even function at all .

As long as anet refuses to create new shatter skill and mechanic for illusion , they have to make mesmer elite spec broken op to be on bar with other class .
it would be insanely op dps if other class has something like CS . but even with build in 30% critic chance buff + cs ,chrono line isn’t dps increase for mesmer .

and when you think about it , anet did not design chrono as support elite . the 100% quickness uptime was unintended and back then two wells are okish aoe dmg(they nerfed GW later) , AWTEW was for condition removal .

everyone is happy with chrono , but even chrono is flawed design wise ,they just threw random aoe support as wells at mesmer but quickness thing worked( tho chrono trait line is well designed for slow/shatter/support ).

and anet did this with mirage again .it’s just this time nothing works. And this time mirage trait line is purely random for many different functions but offer little resource to make certain function work (mirror , dodge , ambush ,illusion retarget ,clone burst and bonus confusion ).

And yet we have to be positive lol .

my idea for mirage would be :
1. core use dodge as a resource through mirror , plan ahead for burst or long defensive evade
2. shatter phant will create mirror , active f5 to consume all mirrors with short cd , for each mirror consumed mesmer itself gain bonus and clone .
3.shatter skill will explode nearby mirror ,gain bonus effect and grant mesmer ambush attack .

Allarius.5670:

@musu

That doesn’t feel like a fair criticism to me. Does Well of Gravity directly help with the Chronomancer theme of casting more? It can be made to by granting alacrity via traits, but that requires traiting and a playstyle shift to stand in it and it certainly doesn’t do it baseline.

Aside from granting Mirage Mirrors, Deception skills provide specialized mobility tools. Is it a big stretch to see how offensive and defensive repositioning can use position to remove hindrances to casting?

I agree ambush isn’t a direct fit outside of thematic alternate Thief mechanics and a way to introduce other skills and any associated utility or offense they may provide as another level of tuning.

Alternate interpretation is going to sound like playing with words, all I can do is try to provide explanation of my reasoning. I make no comment on its purpose or role, only what I think it appears to want to do.

I agree with the lack of clarity from Anet in statements and interviews. In one of the interviews a developer describes the Mirage as being the ultimate multitasker, but many seem more fixated on their statement about pretending to be a clone. None of that is particularly useful.

but tbh GW is not anything close to ambush attack which is one of the core mechanics from mirage. and wells from chrono was for the theme of time mage , they tick and countdown time then the final effect.

for the aim of mirage , we could focus on : mirror , dodge and ambush attack .
and they should interact with mes core mechanic – shatter in some way .
other skills could just stick to the theme of mirage and be useful .

like i said in other thread ,i don’t know if anet actually believe that they are making mesmer more tricky and deceptive by making its harder to figure which is real mesmer .but IT WILL NEVER WORK and it will be too gimmick for balance ,easy to fool newbies and useless against skilled players ,which mes already suffer from .

and we did see they were trying to do this with mirage again . I feel as long as anet consider mes as "fool your enemy " type , mirage and future mesmer elite spec will have same problem again and again .

Allarius.5670:

My goal was to try and help clear up the questions originally posted in so far as I saw them. These questions appeared to be “what is the Mirage’s focus” and “what does the Mirage specialize in”. I was not providing commentary as to whether or not its current toolset was sufficient to achieve this. Although I disagree with the idea Mirage is a vague concept or a bad elite spec, it in no way invalidates anyone else’s opinion.

I apologize for being unclear and leaving the impression that deception means only to detarget and reorient already existing target saturation assets. What I was trying to say is that “deception” as an idea isn’t useful when trying to answer the posed questions because “deception” is too broad a concept for many to agree on.

For example, if Decoy forced retargeting onto the clone would it be deceptive? Some would say yes because stealth masks movement and action, and the retargeting momentarily distracts the player. Someone else would say no because an experienced player knows that the sudden change in behaviour indicates activation of the skill and to anticipate stealthed behaviour based on in-game context.

If someone asked me what Chronomancer’s focus and specialization was, I would say “lower the impact of cooldowns and snares to allow the Mesmer to do more of the same”. I wouldn’t say resummon Illusions upon shattering, even though it can elect to do so, and I wouldn’t necessarily comment on how effectively it could achieve that if someone asked for a basic understanding of what it was trying to do.

Putting aside any notion of deception, what does Mirage do? What does it enable baseline via minor traits? Mirage Cloak, a way to regain endurance to get more Mirage Cloak, and a touch of superspeed on Mirage Cloak. That is the core of what Mirage is meant to provide. This is why I focused on using Mirage Cloak as an example, because it is the quintessential element of the Mirage spec. If you are trying to understand Mirage broadly and on a basic level, look no further.

Outside of Shards of Glass, the player absolutely has control in the placement of Mirage Mirrors. The Mirage specializes in Mirage Cloak and what it can do. Mirrors provide an additional way to obtain Mirage Cloak, but may not actually be flexible enough to provide adequate utility, especially without adopting a playstyle that aims to capitalise on them.

Someone else described Infinite Horizon as a red herring when trying to interpret Mirage identity, and this is a pretty good description. Infinite Horizon provides a way to let illusions avoid attacks and simultaneously gain access to a new skill. It shares Mirage Cloak with Illusions, what a player does with that is up to them.

Detarget and illusion reposition skills do just that. They provide the utility to move illusions around without resummoning them and provide a situation where it may be necessary for opponents to weed through illusions to retarget the Mesmer.

If the Chronomancer is about casting more, the Mirage is about casting unhindered. Maybe it doesn’t do enough of that yet, but its identity seems pretty clear when you put aside all the talk of deception and pretending to be a clone.

frankly , this is like playing words.
if mirage is about casting unhindered , what about ambush ? and those long cast time on utilities ? not to mention shatter and phant .
anet did not make its aim clear , we really shouldn’t mash something up and call that a solid purpose . it doesn’t help .

1.power mesmer itself isn’t that bad but let’s be honest it doesn’t teach you anything and once you want to get better at game (dps wise) , you have to level a new class and learn the game again.

2.back to topic , op said FRACTAL play , let’s ignore the argument about whether power mes 30k dps . and tell the direct answer : DO NOT RUN POWER MES IN FRACTAL.

3.what you could run ? boon sharing Chrono , it’s a support role ,so see if that suits you ,for the exact build and rotation . you can check here :

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/builds/

be aware , fractal potion gives you extra boon duration ,so the gear requirement between raid and fractal can be different .

4: off topic ,@OriOri.8724 i think power mesmer has 2 free utility slots , you are thinking of condi mes ? tho in most cases that 2 slots wont help much in raid .in fractal , feedback is nice ,and you can take AT or other boon removal .

well wp made second video .
A Look Back At Generation 2

https://youtu.be/AZNHGyKgXGA?t=1448

I don’t know how you guys defend this ?

he basically said mes mains are noobs can cant see how awesome mirage is .

coz we surely did not test DE trait with IH(ambush is a lot from wp), we surely did not test IH + interrupt traits with sword clone , surely we did not know mirror has short weakness (30s + cd for weakness )

and funniest is he claimed that mirage could be fastest class in gw2 beyond anything like DD lol.

cos superspeed trait +Executioner Axe Toy…

vigor is op i guess

im almost certain anet wont touch many problems we listed here.

most like number changes .

forum bug again

and how about pve breakbar
should CC with interrupt traits do more breakbar damage ?

OriOri.8724:

I had a similar thought to removing initiative, but it was to increase the initiative cost to 16 for 10 seconds. It makes it impossible to use the skill, giving the desired effect, but I have no idea how easy that would be to implement. Thieves as a whole need to be looked at. The initiative idea with 0 CD on their weapon skills is a neat concept, but is implemented horribly. I like the idea of buffing a few skills but adding small CDs to them.

same for chill , should chill affect initiative point regen ?

mesmer needs some effect that interrupts next non AA skill usage maybe , an aoe aura anyone ? since war full counter has a GM trait that will trigger cc when the target move further than certain range.

OriOri.8724:

Power Block really needs to be updated to work on skills that have an initiative cost as well.

unlikely , Power block was causing many problems from pve to pvp .i think anet has trouble to code it work on thief weapon skill and rev skills without kittening up everyones AA and pve mob attacks.

and i agree phant should be changed into utility like shield 4

SlimChance.6593:

Its a very frustrating skill. I try to employ it like “Magic Bullet”. (Narrow cone shaped target path.)

Keep facing the enemy until the skill is complete. Too much of a left/right angle, and it misses.

In pvp, I don’t use it much because of its behavior..usually need something viable in many situations.

pretty much what he said here .

also the topic on reddit was talking about high level fractal , in which case , AT cd is not good to remove protection in time for most groups(if you are with super pro insane dps group ignore this and take AT as you like )

another thing is im not sure if AT still works this way , but it used to remove boons one by one and apply them to you after you successfully hit someone with it .maybe it just worked slowly and you didnt notice ?

FaboBabo.3581:

nice combo ok i see now what u meant as u said chrono deals more conditions. Seriously i need to work arround my rotations. Pvp means Player vs Player.[/quote]

all we know in gw2 pvp means spvp while wvw is wvw .you only checked.

i meant you got facts wrong thats it , its not something shameful or big deal .just accept that . no one is going eat you for that .
but instead you got triggered and kept changing what your words mean . also many things clearly showed you did not test much of mirage in real gameplay .like axe ambush .or even fully read those tooltips.

why i have to prove a well known condi build’s condition pressure (which is meta for like 1.5 year only changed amulet )to you .

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronophantasma_Shatter

its you who made theory craft based on wrong information which needs to be proved useful in pvp .

you said this yourself " but having TWO conditions on the auto Hit is pretty good, dont u think"

now you saying you said its not bad . pretty good has a simple meaning you know , one does not include “not bad”

you were talking " I’d wonder if anyone properly could get me as a target in the first 5 – 10 seconds of the fight ; if he wants to click on me , im allready gone again."
yeah that totally means axe 3 retarget lol like come on .

you have a brain but not much of dignity .
all those words you said you can find them yourself in this very post and then you lied times and times .anyway im done .

FaboBabo.3581:

musu.9205:

FaboBabo.3581:

Carighan.6758:

FaboBabo.3581:

And again ; Dont fool me with saying chrono does the same condis / even more Condis then Mirrage.

Mirrage condis LAUGHS about Chrono Condis.

On a target dummy, sure. Try getting those clones to attack anything in real gameplay and you’ll be lucky to get one clone to do what you want, nevermind 2 or 3.

I played the Beta. Was fun. I mentioned the combo like 2 times here. I asked ppl several times to showcase how chrono can do the same. I never get an answer oô

you mentioned full combo twice , lied about it 3 times and then you still think your number is right with your 4 skill usages ?

and what i said is an actual combo used in meta chrono condi build lol i even mentioned a stun for chrono to actually hit something .

you got so many facts wrong , and shamelessly call people who linked wiki page troll.

i havent seen a joke like energy sigil on pvp build for a while .

your 2s 30 stacks of confusion wet dream was busted from very beginning , and you still refuse to check mirage skill tooltips .

list things you said are simply wrong :
energy sigil
ambush attack damage
shield block duration
detarget mechanic
count recharge
ambush attack being bonus (devs said its a special mechanic for mirage )
and more

Thats it. I am 100% right with energy sigil(in WvW , as i stated it).

Quote ; “One thing i need to mention is that i was referring to WvW all the time. This occurs to PvP too in some aspects, but im sure aware of sigil of energy is 25% in Pvp.”

I am 100% right with ambush CONDITION APPLYING. I was wrong with shield Block duration which means following ; innstead of doing “nothing” the first 4 seconds, ur combo is doing nothing the first 3 seconds -> great improvement. I was never talking about detarget mechanic. All i said about count recharge is true. Beeing a bonus and a special mechanic doesnt cut into eachother.

I never lied. I will admit that i FORGOT to mention some parts of the combo, as i needed to write it like 10 times.

May i ask the 10th time ; can i see ur combo on chrono WITH STACKS of condition?
No i can’t. Why? U know ur combo won’t have the condi pressure u promised.

Btw we can do this forever bro ^^ Dont overfeed urself

Blink back a short distance and launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

“K maybe 2 second 30 Confu was too harsh for a pvp situation, lets go the full burst combo”

what you said "for a pvp situation " then u listed energy sigil .
all of those i consider as lies.

you can name them whatever you like but that wont change people will say those are lies .

and you did talk about how people cant re click real mirage which is detarget otherwise what were you talking about ?

you said
“5. Ambushes are better versions of normal Auto Attacks for scepter, Staff and Axe (didnt test others). I previously explained why ambushes are strong, simply because they are a bonus. And again 5 Stacks of conditions is never a joke”

i told you check cast time etc also consider you have to burn your dodge for that especially staff , and you saying you are right about it ?
and you saying you tested axe ambush even tho you ignored the facts its damage will be ruined by adds or more enemy players .

and now you are lying that u were talking about wvw all the time ?

and ambush attack is the core mechanic about mirage , i already said , go watch dev stream or something .

and you are wrong about axe AA being strong , i said go check other axe AA and mirge axe AA is weaker . but you refused to define what weaker means .

you really lack self respect in this post .

Daishi.6027:

musu.9205:

Daishi.6027:

His vid wasn’t that bad, it was less complainy than the forums which is to be expected esp when he gets favorable treatment from A-net and doesn’t want to kitten them off.

But only thing I have a problem with, is him saying things are overturned when they are not. Especially when you consider what all elite specs (Both HoT and PoF included) are capable of.

His claim GS ambush wont do the numbers because hes not in the right set up, without knowing or representing that it does awful damage either way is a problem.

More regarding GS ambush he pointed out that it gives it a bit of cleave. Well he failed to represent that no one wanted GS to cleave since Orr events 2012, and if they did they wouldn’t want something as ineffectual as an auto attack, on something as limited as a doge. (Yes we get more doge than core, but it’s still very limited. I don’t care how much vigor you give us core thief, hell even core ranger can doge more within a shorter period of time. Then DD exists…)

To his credit I feel he tried, and is over all less ignorant than most non mesmer mains, of mesmer’s situation.

thats how i feel . but well .wish anet could come to reddit or forum and talk about their plan for elite spec especially "weaker " ones

Problem is I don’t think they actually view mirage as one of the weaker ones.

well reddit had few posts about mirage problems in front page for days .

and there was poll after demo about whats the best elite spec, mes and rev one were voted least .
http://www.strawpoll.me/13757285/r
mirage now is least voted
considering that gw2 reddit users usually dont value usefulness of certain class that much and mirage has one of best visual effect . we can see how bad it is for most people.

if anet cant do anyrhing with massive negative feedback about mirage . i switch to engi or necro fpr pof i guess.

FaboBabo.3581:

Carighan.6758:

FaboBabo.3581:

And again ; Dont fool me with saying chrono does the same condis / even more Condis then Mirrage.

Mirrage condis LAUGHS about Chrono Condis.

On a target dummy, sure. Try getting those clones to attack anything in real gameplay and you’ll be lucky to get one clone to do what you want, nevermind 2 or 3.

I played the Beta. Was fun. I mentioned the combo like 2 times here. I asked ppl several times to showcase how chrono can do the same. I never get an answer oô

you mentioned full combo twice , lied about it 3 times and then you still think your number is right with your 4 skill usages ?

and what i said is an actual combo used in meta chrono condi build lol i even mentioned a stun for chrono to actually hit something .

you got so many facts wrong , and shamelessly call people who linked wiki page troll.

i havent seen a joke like energy sigil on pvp build for a while .

your 2s 30 stacks of confusion wet dream was busted from very beginning , and you still refuse to check mirage skill tooltips .

list things you said are simply wrong :
energy sigil
ambush attack damage
shield block duration
detarget mechanic
count recharge
ambush attack being bonus (devs said its a special mechanic for mirage )
and more

Daishi.6027:

His vid wasn’t that bad, it was less complainy than the forums which is to be expected esp when he gets favorable treatment from A-net and doesn’t want to kitten them off.

But only thing I have a problem with, is him saying things are overturned when they are not. Especially when you consider what all elite specs (Both HoT and PoF included) are capable of.

His claim GS ambush wont do the numbers because hes not in the right set up, without knowing or representing that it does awful damage either way is a problem.

More regarding GS ambush he pointed out that it gives it a bit of cleave. Well he failed to represent that no one wanted GS to cleave since Orr events 2012, and if they did they wouldn’t want something as ineffectual as an auto attack, on something as limited as a doge. (Yes we get more doge than core, but it’s still very limited. I don’t care how much vigor you give us core thief, hell even core ranger can doge more within a shorter period of time. Then DD exists…)

To his credit I feel he tried, and is over all less ignorant than most non mesmer mains, of mesmer’s situation.

thats how i feel . but well .wish anet could come to reddit or forum and talk about their plan for elite spec especially "weaker " ones

FaboBabo.3581:

musu.9205:

your number based on "torch 4 into Jaust -> 4 Burn , 3 Confu
torch 5 into axe 2 -> 9 Burn , 3 Confu , 3 Torment
axe 2, dodge weapon swap, scepter ambush -“
then you said your combo is ”Torch 4+5, Axe 2, F2“

shameless is only word here .

and also just you know : shield block is 1.5 each anet nerfed it long time ago , and shield 5 is for stun not for dmg . just like other things you know little about them so i linked wiki page for you but reading is too much effort i guess.

but im glad you are so triggered lol

Again ; Proof it with numbers. Show me how much stacks of which conditions u can burst onto someone in which time, exactly like i did with torch4,5-axe2,axe2,dodge,ambush,shatter

i forgot the jaust y. My bad. Good i mentioned it early. How’s ur combo ?

you forgot about weapon swap and scepter ambush too . and energy sigil too .

let me keep the number froms all those skills but only count 4 skills usage and guys i find something amazingly op . lol

your number based on "torch 4 into Jaust → 4 Burn , 3 Confu
torch 5 into axe 2 → 9 Burn , 3 Confu , 3 Torment
axe 2, dodge weapon swap, scepter ambush -“
then you said your combo is ”Torch 4+5, Axe 2, F2“

shameless is only word here .

and also just you know : shield block is 1.5 each anet nerfed it long time ago , and shield 5 is for stun not for dmg . just like other things you know little about them so i linked wiki page for you but reading is too much effort i guess.

but im glad you are so triggered lol

Carighan.6758:

If I had to list just the important points:

• Problematic class bar mechanic. Shatter runs opposed to other class concepts, and even as a “sacrifice your other class mechanics for burst”, this only truly works for F4 and very rarely F3 because those are individually strong enough. The rest is only good as part of a slew of spammed abilities.
• Phantasms vs Clones is just a broken design. My favorite solution where would be to make Phantasms be only 1 at a time, a fourth illusion which is separate and ignores shatter commands.
• Too much reliance on a plethora of weird interactions and meshes of partially broken design. Example: SoI, Mantras, Moa, all reflect skills vs projectiles which aren’t reflectable, did I mention Mantras yet?
• Mantras. They deserve their own mention. They were unbalanced but interesting at a single charge, ever since the multi charge thing they’re just inferior “normal” skills.
• Weapons lack oompf to make up for our Phantasm DPS. See above with the idea for them.

• Phantasms vs Clones is just a broken design. My favorite solution where would be to make Phantasms be only 1 at a time, a fourth illusion which is separate and ignores shatter commands.

while i like this idea but if we get additional phant slot , then phant wont interact with all of our mechanics. also there will be another problem : dmg phant vs utility phant .

FaboBabo.3581:

musu.9205:

FaboBabo.3581:

“press shield 4 twice and 5 stun some little chick and shatter it 3 times "

.

Ok u are a troll i get it now. Wp so far.

you are proved to be wrong about pure numbers

i linked wiki page for you to check the actual tooltip and dmg numbers (including condi and direct) and im troll ?

telling you that people can click on real mirage very fast is trolling ?
math is hard

FaboBabo.3581:

musu.9205:

Refia Montes.3205:

He explained in the video, it’s not a review. It’s more of an introduction about the Mirage. He knows that the Mirage has its problems and he’s not there to address it or call them out. He’s just there to introduce the Elite Spec and advertise it. And of course to advertise it he needs to show every trait and Utility and what’s good with all of them.

but still some info are just incorrect . like i said , many things he talked about simply do not work that way . like illusionary ambush . and people are going to buy PoF based on his introductions . some comments from youtube even believed that clone has more power dmg with mirage . wp used to overhype lots of things . sometime he did do more harm than good .

and we already have seen the 30 stacks of confusion op burst talk everywhere due to his stream . i think he could have done second video more carefully since he got time to test things ?

Cool , first time i see the video. Is this the video u said i was watching and where i have my thaughts from? Well My thaughts about 30 Stacks Confusion( Which i said would only be 20 in the 2 seconds i mentioned) were from experience.

I played pvp and wvw only on the 2 Days of Beta and i experienced 20-30 Stacks confusion in a “single blow” (this can be 1 second or even 5 seconds, when on adrenaline [im on adrenaline in fighting games] u misinterpretate time).

Now im gonna watch the video ((:

well , im sorry what im going to tell you
there was gm trait called mistrust , it was not reliable but it could achieve crazy high stacks of confusion too . i wiped whole team with it few times in pvp . but it was too gimmick anyway .thats how i feel about current mirage too.