Guild Wars 2

“We have been watching the prices climbing on Legendary precursors and share your concerns about some of them becoming too expensive. We will continue to monitor the situation and will make any adjustments we feel are necessary. "

Quote from Anet – October 2012

2. Counter Play
Counter play is a little trickier, but part of the solution is having conditions in such a way where it isn’t always advantageous to use them at every opportunity, as the above would largely solve.
But the other part is how you deal with the conditions once they have been applied to you.

In GW you had a Pip system, where you would regenerate or degenerate health/energy at a fixed rate per pip, up to 10 pips. (arrows basically) This largely worked because health pools across all professions were the same size, and there was little you could do to increase it. That, and condition damage didn’t exist.
Regeneration and Degeneration had a 1 to 1 ratio. If you had 5 pips of degeneration it could be offset by 5 pips of regeneration. As a result you could mitigate this damage over time with more then just removing the conditions or hexes, which were limited in supply and largely something done by support/healing professions.

If you had a lot degeneration, you could just regenerate and mitigate the damage. Thus, counter play.

-
Here it’s a little more difficult, and it goes heavily into support and boons that I will cover in depth another time, but I have a few ideas.

• First would be to have the Boons function identically to Conditions in how they stack, as listed above. Part of this could be having Regeneration be modular, where an individual player could stack it if the skill or trait allows. Thus allowing the player to increase the amount of health regeneration depending on the situation.

• Having more skills that actively allow you to regenerate separately from the Regeneration boon for a period of time, like Troll Urgency, could also work since most regeneration you have access to is passive, food, signets, runes, traits, etc. But there are very few skills that allow you to regenerate for a set period of time as their basic function. Thou if Regeneration were modular this would probably be moot.

• However, if these regeneration skills were based on positional play, then that would be a horse of a different color. Such as dropping a symbol on the ground and having it heal you, but only if you stand in it. While you can do this now, most symbols tend to only last a few seconds and not be that powerful. If you had area effects that lasted a long time but had a small radius, there would be a lot of positional play with trying to fight in and around it. The trick I think is to have regeneration effects have a very small radius, but long duration. Of course you should only be able to have 1 or 2 of these out at the same time.

• Condition removal on the other hand could stand to be more specific rather then general. Which could lead to some professions being stronger against certain conditions then others, such as having the Ranger be strong against cripple, chill and immobilize, but weaker against say weakness, blind and confusion.

• Part of this could be taking more preemptive measures, such as new Boons that effect Conditions. For example a Boon the reduces incoming damage by a flat rate, say in this case 50 points. For a condition that is dealing damage every second, this would reduce a lot damage, but if you get a single hit for 7500 damage, it would hardly do anything.

• Between having modular regeneration and preemptive boons, a player would have multiple options to deal with conditions besides simply removing them, which could stand to be more scarce, and be more heavily focused on some professions the others, as long as every profession has some way to deal with them.

Possible Solutions

I’m going to be take a lot of inspiration from Guild Wars on this one, because quite frankly, it did conditions and hexes far, far better then conditions in GW2.
Yes, they did have a problem with complexity and too many skills, but depth was certainly not one of it’s problems.

1. Spam
In Guild Wars you couldn’t really spam conditions or hexes, if you used the same condition or hex it would simply reapply if it had a duration equal or longer to the one that was on the target. And so you really had to think about when you wanted to use your skills, as it was more about applying pressure to an enemy, and less about just damage over time.
Mind you stacking does have some great advantages between multiple players….. well, except when world bosses are concerned. But I’ll cover that later.

My idea it to take the best from both these systems, and hybridize it.

• The basic idea is that a single player can only stack a condition as much as that skill or trait allows. Attempting to apply more stacks only refreshes the existing stacks if the duration is equal or longer to the conditions that exist. However multiple players can collectively stack conditions in either stacks or duration.

• So if you were to apply a 10 sec bleed and a 15 sec bleed, you would only get 1 stack of 15 sec bleed. So it would be advantageous to chain one bleed after the other for 25 sec of bleeding.

• If you were to apply 5 stacks of bleeding for 5 sec, and 1 stack for 15 sec, you would end up with 5 stacks in total, 4 stacks for 5 sec, and 1 for 15 sec.

• Each stack of a condition competes with each other for their own stack slot, starting from the bottom working upwards. So if you were to apply 5 stacks or bleeding for 5 sec, then 1 stack for 15 sec, then 3 stacks for 8 sec, there result would be:
  Stack Slot 1 = 15 sec
  Stack Slot 2 & 3 = 8 sec
  Stack Slot 4 & 5 = 5 sec

• However, each player stacks their conditions individually. So if player A stacks 2 bleeds for 15 sec, and player B stacks 3 bleeds for 10 sec, you would have 5 stacks of bleeding on the target, 2 for 15 sec and 3 for 10 sec.

• Conditions that stack only in duration such as Cripple and Chill function similarly. If one player stacks a 10 sec cripple then a 15 sec cripple, the result is only 15 seconds of cripple, as it had the longer duration. However, if player A stacks a 10 sec cripple and player B stacks a 15 sec cripple, the result is a 25 sec cripple on the target.

• Interestingly this system wouldn’t just have to only have conditions that stack in either duration or intensity, but both. Such as having Poison stack in intensity if the skill or trait allows it to, but between players it stacks in duration. For example: Player A applies 2 stacks of 10 sec Poison, and player B applies 1 stack for 15 sec. The result is 2 stacks of Poison, 1 stack for 25 sec and 1 for 10 sec.

• Being able to hybridizes the system would allow for more specialize between professions, such as making the Ranger simply be able to apply more stacks of Poison then other professions, without making them ruin it for other professions by hitting the cap too quickly or making them over powered in the process.

• The damage of Bleeding, Torment and Confusion would probably have to be reworked however. As would Vulnerability, either by increasing the damage percentage given by each stack or the number of stacks any given skill/trait deals.

• Lastly cap size could vary from enemy to enemy, so some bosses or enemies could be weaker to some conditions then others, by simply have a larger cap size. And since each player is ultimately limited in how many stacks they can apply, it would take a lot more players to hit the cap in either case. You could even have traits that reduced how many stacks of certain conditions could apply to you, or even a stat if you want to go there.

3.Damage UI
Damage potential I think is an easier fix, and it comes down to UI.
Remember in GW when your health bar changed colors when you got effected with difference conditions/hexes?
Same sort of deal.

When you get effected with a condition, part of your health changes color relative to each condition. (only the damaging conditions)
The amount of your bar that is color changed is exactly proportional to the amount of damage that player would receive if the condition would deal if not removed or mitigated.

For example: You get hit with Burning that does 628 points of damage per second, for 10 seconds. Which would deal 6280 in total if it goes for it full duration.
And so when applied it will turn approx 6280 slice of your health bar bright Orange, and as you take damage that bar will shrink. (turning grey in the process as you have lost health)
See Reference picture.
!http://s18.postimg.org/9elh1o9ih/gw092.jpg!

Multiple conditions would line up underneath each other, each color coded. So if you have 3 or 4 conditions that will deal 15000 points of damage over their duration, then most of your bar if not all of it will show this.

This way at a glance you can see just how much damage you will take from your conditions, and as such act accordingly. On ally windows, same system but designed for the health bar rather then the health orb.

4.Differences in Kind
Class Distinction I already covered this in solution 1 and 2 for the most part.
Having a more modular condition system would allow for some professions to excel in some conditions more then others, and open the door for more hybrid conditions in the future that stack in intensity for individual players, but in duration for multiple players.
Torment could probably fit this role rather well, as would Poison.

Also, as Arenanet have already shown a willingness, having traits the fundamentally change the effects of conditions. However this would also have to have some sort of visual identifier that something is different, that the conditions has been enhanced.
I think they could expand this in interesting directions, such as having bleeding do more damage when the target is moving, like a pseudo torment, or having cripple increase in duration/reapply if a movement skill is used.

What’s coming is a good start, but I think we can go a lot further in making conditions something that can be tailored to the individual players needs.

-
That about all I have on Conditions. At some point I will also cover Boons/Support, and later Control. Next week maybe when I am not so busy working.

Let me know what you think, if I am even within miles of being right about this, or if I am totally full of it or missing something obvious.
Because honestly, I just don’t have fun with conditions, they are a very poor substitute for hexes and conditions from GW, and I pretty much thought that from launch.
I’ve tried to like them, I really have, but I have seen little more then a slew of problems with them, which aren’t being addressed.

But I’m probably bias.

Introduction

Just a note, this thread just got merged into this one, so if it seems a little out of place, there’s your reason.

Been meaning to do this for awhile, but this is going to be a short series where I go over what I perceive as fundamentally flawed design gameplay elements to combat.
Namely Condtions, Boons, support and control. As well as offer a few suggestions, and open up to suggestions from other players.
I have little confidence that Arenanet will actually do anything about it, but I might as well make the bloody attempt.

Guild Wars 2 made a lot of innovative decisions, some of which worked out, others, not so much. Unfortunately by trying to make the game more accessible to a wider audience, they dumbed down certain mechanics and eliminated others.
And while yes I would concede that it’s easier to use and get into, it also lacks depth and counter play, compared to Guild Wars.
Conditions and Boons are some of the bigger offenders of this.

-
The Problems

So what is wrong with Conditions?

• 1. Spam.
  Due to the way almost all conditions stack in either duration or intensity, in conjunction with Guild Wars 2 lacking almost any kind of resource mechanic, with the solo exceptions to Fear and Blind (maybe also Chill), there is never any reason not to use you conditions at every available opportunity.
  This makes conditions very spammy and mindless. You never have to think about when or how to use your conditions, rather you simply spam spam spam spam spam them until your blue in the face. For counter play to exist, there have to be situations you do not want to use them, where it is advantageous to save them for when you need them. Rarely is this ever the case.

• 2. Lack of Counter play.
  Partially for the reasons above, but also in addition the way conditions are removed in a very dime a dozen fashion, you don’t have to think about how to deal with conditions. One party applies them, the other removes them, end of transaction.
  Your only options for dealing with most conditions in either to wait and take the damage/effect, or remove them. A few professions such as the Necromancer also have the option to transfer them, or convert into boons (which is functionally identical to removal), however these tend to be the exception rather then the rule.
  It’s a very binary system, either they are on, or they are off, with little in the way of a middle ground such as mitigation.

• 3. Unclear Damage Potential/UI.
  Due to the way Condition Damage works, in conjunction with stacking, it is very difficult at a glance to tell just how much damage you a liable to take from conditions.
  7500 of sudden direct damage would get you back off and reevaluate if you have your wits about you, but 7500 of condition damage, how on earth do you evaluate that?
  And as such many players react poorly to thou situations and cry foul, calling conditions over powered. Where the problem is actually that they had an uniformed choice, and an uninformed choice is not a real choice.
  In order for counter play to exist you need to know your options in addition to having them. And as such you need to be able to decern your situation at a glance.

• 4. Lack of Class Distinction/Differences in Kind.
  Given the spammy nature of condition, and most professions tend to have most conditions, in a very general sense. As a result there is seldom any difference between condition builds between professions, they all tend to function almost identically.
  While this is more of a minor complaint, part of the reason you have different classes in the first places is because of how they differ from others. And currently there is not much in the way of clear differences between profession when it comes to conditions.

• 5. PvE Bosses.
  Again, due to stacking conditions on bosses very very rapidly hit their cap when multiple players are involves, which greatly reduces the amount of damage condition based players can do to players in PvE. It’s a very common complaint, justifiably so.

I hope they NEVER really start with something like Legendary armor, since really who beside some TP Tycoons will have maybe 12-15.000 Gold to spent for a set of armor ?

And that of course only for ONE set for one character.

I’d rather happily buy the next 20+ armorsets from the gemstore instead of seeing something so totally overpriced like legendary armor.

Aberrant.6749:

Wall of text + ragequit post… not sure if trolling or just trying to punish everyone else out of anger…

i think your missing the trick.

if you look at it for the right amount of time and cross your eyes a cool image appears.

OP. Nerf incoming.

I agree. Especially the first point about blocks and invulnerabilities preventing from revealing the thief is so stupid. It adds no counterplay.

I can see it sometimes, but not at other times. I’m not sure what the difference is caused by.

I saw it first BEFORE Scarlet showed up, and when I finally saw her standing on a platform out there, I instantly said “THAT’S what that’s for!”

So, yes. It’s Scarlet’s platform. And no, you can’t land on it. I’ve managed to fall far enough out to hit it, and I simply passed through it.

They will be nerfing champ bagS/event gold reward for the repair fee alone. Double waypointing for an world event, will actually be a full nerf on top of it, meaning everyone will loose MORE money overall.

Stop making these stupid threads.

By the way, there is nothing cool about mounts.

So yeah. During wintersday, i did PvP a lot. i REALLY enjoyed myself. Got me into serious PvP (well i have a more serious mindset because i understand it)

So what i want to ask is this.

Waiting on a match sometimes takes a while. I dont like Alt Tabbing because i dont want to miss a match.

How do we fix this? add more things to jump on! back in wintersday, all the presents were a blast to jump about. I think a small jumping puzzle, or even a small sky path with holes to jump over.. THAT WOLD BE AWESOME

In my opinion there are two big problems with the Condition meta and those are:

Rate which they can be applied

And the rate in which they can be cleansed before they can be re-applied.

It takes 1 stat to max out damage and the other 2 can be ba directed towards tankiness while direct damage users need, power, precision AND critical damage to proc our best output in sacriface of all survival whatsoever.

>BUT GET CONDITION REMOVAL ZOMG

As a thief player there’s not enough cond removal in any kind of build which can remove all the condition that condition build can apply (and re-apply cus why not) other than heavily investing in a trait line that i may or may not feel like traiting in just to counter game imbalances. That’s the reality of gw2.

Anyone who denies how conditions are completly broken in this game on all classes going from Thief, mesmer, engie (broken as kitten k bye) Necro and warrior (also gg broken), is purely lying to himself or is a condition user himself.

Oh and Crt dmg in a desperate try to fix the Pve meta which won’t change a bit. Thus making WvW condition roamers gods.

My jimmies are so rustled.

I know it has been said many times before but come on. Warrior gets so much health per second. Its exessive. They already have high vitality and toughness, they can already block conditions, and become invulnerable 2 times and a battle (total of 10 sec if traited). They get too much passive healing and that 8% won’t really do anything. It should at least have long time interval. Devs on RU didn’t really mention anything about warriors overportection except for that hammer damage was getting toned down a bit.

nobody wants a condition heavy bunker meta come back to gw2 … having balanced stats amulettes like celestial is really nice for balanced ele or maybe even mesmer for a hybrid kind of thing but perplexity in pvp…no please no

IMO, they want you to BUY GEMS with RLM and convert to gold to make IGM, very sad we can’t make and obtain gold/items/mats just by playing the game, so sad.

I’m still not going to play dungeons and fractals while it is all about to either rush them and stack in a corner or spend hours killing hit point bags that drop no reward.

The entire armor breaking system could just be removed these days and nerfing the overall rewards of dynamic events just because of champion trains in certain areas are popular seems silly.

Just reduce the rewards in those areas.

… for mediocore changes. The “big and great” feature patch so far is, removing the most minimal ever appearing costs in the game, repairs, that didn’t hurt even the every time dying newbies (not like traveling costs, that noone really cares about later). Free trait resets are mentioned TWICE in 2 separate blogposts, once it says you can do it for free anywhere, and the other says again you can do it for free. WvW exp and highend items being account wide is also represented as the most glorious thing ever done, but let’s face it, it’s just a “fix” that should have been done ages ago and takes minimal effort. I’m not a programmer, but I imagine it’s a swich on some devkit UI if an item is soulbound or account bound. The new traits are a nice addition, that’s for sure, but won’t make an impact on the game, not on their own. I expected many more changes (especially under title “removing restrictions”), like weapons that can be used in only main hand, can be used in offhand or something. That would have been the very minimal of my expectations. The wardrobe is also nice.

I must say, I’m happy to see the game changing and upgrading, but this is very very far from enough, to keep me playing. Most of the changes are aimed for newcomers.

Wardrobe? Great! I already have all the skins I wanted, I had 1.5 years to collect them. 0 new armor added.

Trait resets? Great! Now it saves me 30 seconds when I change between PvE and WvW. New traits added, this is done well – speaking in general, not about how good / bad those traits are.

WvW EXP and high end gear acc wide? Great! It’s a minor fix and changes nothing for those who already had this kind of stuffs. Those who have a legendary on a character are certainly very dedicated to that character, and it’s a welcome addition to allow item transfer between alts. But I can’t say it enough times this is a change so minimal, it is simply impossible to match the expactations that are based on the hype ANet built up, via speaking so highly about this patch, plus the lacking communication when people went to theorycrafting and wishes about new weapon skills etc. that should have been in a patch presented a way like this one.

More detailed LFG tool? Seriously? This is worth an entire day’s blogpost? I was propably hard to write more than 2 lines about it. A change that should have been mentioned as a sidenote somewhere, not as a “look at our hard hard work!”. I could appriciate it, if it would not be – again – presented as something fantastic. This is a minor fix.

Reworked runes, sigils. This is the big one, something I say easily lived up to the hype. I cannot say much until I tried the new system, but it definitly sounds like a great, fundamental change that REALLY required hard work and balancing, and has a big impact on everyday gameplay. Something I don’t really do, since the content didn’t really expanded since relase. But that’s another topic, about why changes to gameplay doesn’t matter to those who don’t play at all because they’ve seen everything already, many times.

Reducing in-game cumulative gold rewards = more grind = more people will spend money on gems to convert to gold. End of story. That’s what ANET is hoping for.

Eskarina Tigress.3785:

Actually, thats not at all logical, there is no extra cost for (not at 80 anyway) for changing your outfit, it costs exactly the same as it does today except today

Exactly. ie: It’s a horrid system. It’s always been a horrid system. That’s why people when “cool, a new system!! oh.. same system with more bank space” what’s your point?

One of the main tenants of a wardrobe is the ability to change clothes on the fly. Having a cost on that kills much of the appeal. I’m glad I get space back, i’m glad items are account bound, but seriously should I be patting Anet on the back for getting the cosmetic system to be almost up to date with the MMO standard?