Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Arenas are about capping and holding points for however long you can and that’s the key to win, not fighting, chasing and stomping.
???
2+2 = 5?
I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptionsI applaud you for attempting to prove they are fine even now. Valiant effort.
This appears to be a much smaller version of the “mobility so you’re good” argument, because clearly fighting someone solo inside of a holographic circle does nothing to alter the fact that it is 1v1.
And since it cannot 1v1 right now, having good damage and cc does not make it “deadly in 1v1”
You are not forced to stay in a circle. You can go wherever it pleases you, the maps are pretty big. Your argument does not make sense as the description clearly says 1v1 not “1v1 under circumstances made by Azure The Heartless.3261”.
Funny thing is if you played 1v1 conquest thief would win vs most builds.
????
I never said I was forced to stay in the circle.
in SPVP, you will most likely always be fighting on point. Why “1v1 inside of a point is still 1v1” is an argument that makes no sense to you, I dont know, but apparently you think that contesting a point is different from 1v1, when in fact it is not in many cases.
I have no problem with 1v1 anywhere else, but in Spvp contesting is the main place where battles take place.
Thief does not, in fact, win 1v1 in conquest vs. most popular builds, because they do not have enough sustain to contest an actively defended point.
That’s the whole issue. we need at least the promised healing increase in order to do this competently. Otherwise, all we’re decent at is SB5ing across the map.
Apparently that is the whole point of thief though, so I’m not going to argue for something that we were not intended to have unless there is word that devs agree that thief is in a bad place.
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Very nice find, Kahnen. Going to address one thing, but I’ve got nothing to retort if this source is correct.
The thief is quite different from the assassin in many key ways, which is why we chose to rename the profession. The first major difference is that we wanted the thief to be a more versatile profession (as all Guild Wars 2 professions are) than the Guild Wars 1 assassin. Whereas the assassin is mostly a damage dealer the thief can deal damage, support his allies, and even control mobs through clever use of dodging and movement altering effects. The assassin was also much more of a burst damage dealer in Guild Wars 1 relying on specifically chained skills to deliver big damage with a finishing move, the thief does not have this sort of mechanic instead being more of a hit and run pressure character, dealing damage and then darting out of combat to safety.”
So pretty much thief is declared backcap mule, since dealing damage and then running away does nothing to people holding a point.
Neat. Back to warrior.
And you know what? Thieves should be deadly 1v1 / 1v2 in WVW.
Here we go.. Im a thief, i should be able to kill anyone 1v1 or even 1v2. How they dare to even look at me! Die! <laser from eyes> boom ded.
Ps. thieves in dueling rooms doesnt complain and win 1v1 quite often.
Thieves often been saying l2p…. so maybe its time to say l2p the other way around?
I’ve conceded defeat, but I will not have you putting words in my mouth.
Deadly in 1v1 does not mean “hand me a free win.”
It means “I should be able to fight 1v1 without running away.”
A snake can be deadly but not kill something.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
I think if your worst 1v1 match up is a draw as you can always disengage and survive if you cannot kill your opponent, that qualifies as “good”. It clearly does not say that thief is good at contesting nodes
Thief has good damage and cc, so it also qualifies as deadly.
#arguingsemanticsandclassdescriptions
I applaud you for attempting to prove they are fine even now. Valiant effort.
This appears to be a much smaller version of the “mobility so you’re good” argument, because clearly fighting someone solo inside of a holographic circle does nothing to alter the fact that it is 1v1.
And since it cannot 1v1 right now, having good damage and cc does not make it “deadly in 1v1”
Everyone thinks thieves ask to be Op in 1v1. All thieves ask for is to actually have some chance vs some classes. Right now as thief gameplay: there is enemy? Run away.
People don’t do pvp to spend entire match running away. Players pvp to experience play vs player COMBAT which developers decided to deny to thieves.
Once HoT comes out, revs will completely shuit down thieves and no sb5 in the world will keep them in pvp. Best part, according to votes on reddit, this class was rated worst in EVERY area of this game.
Yes, thief is playable if you are REALLLLLYYYY good at it and you have REALLLY good team that you can rely on. They don’t have you as thief to help them, they have you as a pet that can help to increase the score difference. That is all. As thief you actually have close to no influence on match outcome if your team is not destroying enemy team already. You think this is fun? Do you really think it is fun to be a worthless pet?
There is one wrong thing in your post which kinda breaks your post whole.
PvP Arenas aren’t about pvping – they’re about holding points for as long as possible.
You don’t have to kill or engage in battle even once, as long as you’ll cap points.
In WvW on the other hand, thieves shine if played well.
Holding points involves fighting off players that come to capture those points, as well as defeating players currently occupying a point.
Both of those situations require battle.
Unless I’m insane, PVP is strictly about pvping.
RE: Above.
Oh boy I wish I could play some phoenix wright music at the moment.
I figured someone would chime in about “The wiki is player maintained!”, so before this I did some digging with the wayback machine. The original intent of the class, as seen on the official site, is as follows, and I quote:
“A master of stealth and surprise, the thief is deadly in single combat—particularly when catching enemies off guard. Thieves compensate for their relatively low armor and health by being quick and evasive. They can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Enemies should watch their backs, or the thief will watch it for them.”
Heres source.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110919124952/http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/thief/
So uh.
Yeah.
Deadly in single combat.
Erasculio is on the money more than you might think.
That does bring to the forefront a rather interesting question though.
Why did that snippet of being good at 1v1 vanish from the official site?
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speaking of wvw point of view. thief are deady 1v1 and sometime 1v2. but take this on pvp where you should also contest,res,stomp, decap, cap etc and have timer above your head… it just waist of time. if no times was than everone would go pu condi mesmer
best1v1 if you wanna fight 2 days accoumplish nothing
And you know what? Thieves should be deadly 1v1 / 1v2 in WVW.
In days and places of warfare, even in societies not under siege, people traveled in (and still do travel in) groups so robbers wouldnt kill them.
That practice was so common that it spurred the use of the term “Highway Robbery.” People that laid in wait for unguarded travelers were called “Highwaymen.” Traveling to a location alone is usually more dangerous for the traveler than the bandit, so why the hell is it backwards here?
If you’re travelling solo around that map, you’re asking to be mugged. and that is how it should be. Thieves should be -excellent- when they catch you alone, but melt when outnumbered. Right now they’re the inverse, and who cares about that. you can 2v1 with any class and do well.
Why are people Internalizing these “Bandits shouldnt be good 1v1” rants? Their role could easily be “pressure people into traveling in pairs/running lanes between points by punishing people that try to stretch lead by capping alone”; but since that seems to be toxic to the players, all we’re asking for is sustain so that the wiki (And, by extension, what apparently is the developmental intent of the class by the devs) wont be an outright lie.
‘Cause right now its a lie about as heavy as looking at a cat and swearing by your hat that it’s a panda bear.
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Time to address some nonsense.
first of all why you wanna do 1v1
Because Anet said we do that.
The official GW2 Thief WikiThieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.
Don’t play support guardian, your only role is to remove conditions and heal people in team fights.
Don’t play pewpew ranger, your only role is to snipe people that are unaware of you being there.
Don’t play engineer, your only role is to run around being tanky and holding off people.
Don’t play mesmer, your only role is to burst.
Don’t play warrior, your only role is to go rampage and throw rocks.
Garbage viewpoint. All of the aforementioned classes have a spec that allows them to play in a manner other than the one you listed, and all of the classes you mentioned do not include “running away” or “utility” as their strong suit.
You’ve missed the point in an effort to be snarky. Try again.
Bad thieves are bad in pvp because they concentrate more on being in team fights and 1v1ing classes, instead of roaming to +1 and rotating the map to backcap nodes. If you don’t like that class, talk to your dev on Daredevil, surely some one must have talked about expanding the Thief role.
See thief wiki for dev intent of the class.
The thief community is the most ignorant one I’ve ever seen in any game, period.
You’re funny.
While I see where you’re coming from, let’s list some facts:
- Thief is the best in slot for +1’ing and decapping eversince 2012 and one of the main reasons is shortbow. Now, why would you buff builds that are already #1? Nothing matches thief’s mobility. Every thief’s using shortbow, so whatever buffs you do to thief, you buff them in this role too. Creating a super mobile spec that can take 1v1s, hmm where have I seen that before?…
Mesmer. Right now.
>Buff thieves in a manner so that they consider not taking shortbow
WOW AMAZING INNOVATIVE-
Not that they need to, because of the below:
Yes it’s squishy and can’t take 1v1s. But unless it gets nerfed in other areas, it absolutely shouldn’t be buffed.
Please see the Thief wiki also.
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you are left powerless to counter this situation. you can’t even interrupted the teammate who is trying to revive the down foe.
I love how you know where to find the wiki page but failed to read it.
“Characters in stealth cannot be targeted by enemies, but can still be hit by attacks and take damage without breaking stealth.”
Every class in this game has an attack that can hit people without targets or an AOE that does reasonably high damage, sometimes both.
If you know he’s reviving his teammate, stand next to the person that is down and use an attack that Cleaves.
I suggest you actually read the wiki pages to learn about things you can do to actually fight against stealth before requesting that it be nerfed to suit your perceptions.
And, while I’m not someone that knows a lot about invulnerablity, the only classes that have access to true invulnerability have it for three-four seconds at most.
Again, with your magical guide the Wiki, you can find a way to make revving take longer than four seconds via Poison.
Whatever.
Hard mode is supposed to be hard.
I can tell you one thing.
As I play DD ele, thief is still the biggest threat to my survival.
I don’t believe you.
Edit: It went over my head, 10/10
What’s needed is balancing thief damage upward.
No as that would lead us to pre ferocity again, plus “OP” condis.
I can’t really remember how things back then were but soldier’s was a good choice to not be “one shotted” by a backstab, didn’t work too well afterwards, maybe it does again, haven’t really tried it. The game was pretty nice between ferocity and June as the overall damage wasn’t too high. So, by raising thief damage but leaving everybody else as they are it’s just more power creep. Would be a quick fix but wouldn’t fix the core of the issues.
This. If eveyone wants to spec bunker because they’re afraid of spike damage, so be it. That’s cool.
We dont need more damage to compensate for that. what we need is core sustain to help us deal with the bunkers if we spec bunker as well, as well as remain on point long enough to contest meaningfully.
As well as having an option to not be melted by both zerkers -and- bunkers.
You do realize that if you want dmg or sustain buff then nerfs to mobility and stealth have to happen, righ?
No.
Garbage viewpoint.
We were supposed to be given a healing buff to compensate for the scaled damage of everyone else but never got it.
Its quietly listed as a bug – unimplemented in the wiki.
Why you would think that thief needs to get nerfed to be able to compete with classes that just received buffs to both sustain -and- dps is beyond me.
Another poster with another post. First, if you played more then 1000 matches as thief and still cant win, you are doing something horribly wrong.
To be clear people, thief is viable, and you need to adapt and work for your kill. Stop blaming the game and improve your reflexes. Know what the enemy is running, find their weaknesses and take advantage of em. Keep in mind you will have some natural counters just like every other class.
The iron-e is so heavy I could get a pump.
You’d think the person witty enough to generalize posting would make a post less generic but alas
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Sounds like someone had a bad time while playing Thief.
I think that’s most people playing thief right now in PvP, it feels like it’s in a really bad spot with it’s only saving grace being mobility.
This and the fact that we still get some errant whiners complaining that thieves are too hard to hit, and mobility thus needs to be nerfed.
I hate the way you say it, but I agree with -what- you’ve said.
Kind of just wish they nerf it more so I can stop thinking that it’ll get better and redevote to my warrior.
Do you guys think D/D ele is balanced then? Ok then……
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I’ll humor you.
I think it could use some tweaking perhaps, but it just received a nerf and I’m waiting to see how it works out. That being said, the class is not nearly as mistake-forgiving as it was pre-rebalance, so I am not annoyed by it at the moment.
This, however, does not make it any less astounding that a person could be looking for a nerf against a class that already has an unwinnable matchup against them.
neither does voicing the opinion that a matchup is favored because a player cannot lose.
I am surprised at everyone’s reactions to this post. Right now thief has a niche which keeps it very much alive in the meta. Most thieves though seem to hate only having this niche, and would rather have a different use for their team. The only way they can keep thief balanced overall while being decent in actual combat, is if they can tone down its mobility and disengage while buffing its actual combat abilities.
Or they can give us more sustain and be done with it, so we can actually not be backcap mules. I believe we were promised additional healing we still haven’t gotten.
Why is this impossible to grasp?
Feature patch drops, all classes get a dps increase.
All classes but thief get some kind of passive defense buff or modified healing.
Thief does not actually get its healing, but rather gets a promise for healing coefficient increase, and then:
“Healing (both base and healing power) coefficients have been increased by 10%” per Patch Note June 23, 2015 1 — not implemented.
The solution is clear, at the very least the start of the solution is clear. Instead people are howling “well, you have to give up -something- to be functional!”
Like. Quit it. Our class is literally unfinished at the moment. We don’t have to give up jack squat.
P.S. The niche is stupid.
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snip
I have no issues 1v1 a thief
since they pose no threatSums up everything we need to know from you regarding thieves. Using those two statements we can disregard your posts completely.
Thanks
I think it’s disappointing that someone can play an ele, see how easily they can outsustain a thief, and then still have the audacity to come to the forums and complain that thief is too strong, knowing that thief has an armor class higher than the elementalist.
And then have further audacity to say they like the matchup for the sole fact its onesided.
Again, stop with the passive-aggressiveness…
1- I do play ele a lot, I have no issues 1v1 a thief with D/D, if anything i like the match up since they pose no threat to my sustain.
Read all my posts before and you will see exactly what im tring to say the problem is, I wont repeat myself.
I think we all can see that if you think the old thief, with all the nerfs it has received and still is strong as heck, wasn’t strong, then you might be delusional.
Who’s delusional?
My suggestion is reducing the access to blinks of SB5, via a static CD like revenant where energy isnt the only thing deciding CD, something along the lines of 15 seconds or 20, like RtL for eles, but without the double CD penalty since this skill isnt about damage.
As a whole for the class, reduce access to stealth without penalty, and make stealth condi and heal over time stronger. Stealth is intrinsically strong, you honestly cant predict a player in it, other than the occasional lucky strike, and each person will act differently.
Until those 2 things aren’t tweaked in order to allow a window of retaliation agaisnt thieves, they will not gain any significant damage buffs.
At what point did “thieves need damage buffs” become a topic of discussion?
Thief damage is fine as is. The problem is right now we cannot survive 1v1 against most classes and are delegated to decapping and +1s.
There is plenty of retaliation against thieves, like casting AOE on yourself, standing in their black powder circles, actual retaliation, burning and the like. A thief cannot restealth for 3-4 seconds after attacking you, which is plenty of time to down them if you are keeping a watchful eye out for the initial stun basi-venom locks you down in.
You’re asking to both gut our only reliable mobility (that requires us to sacrifice half of our Attack pool per shot if traited, more if not) and our healing, condi purging, defense, and burst setup (all of those are tied to stealth) because of not having enough time to retaliate against thieves.
Instead of asking reveal be bumped up, mind you.
Are you joking? I have to ask you this. because even when a thief is in stealth, you can predict them. for example, generally:
*If they drop a black powder, you stand in it, and they dont reveal, they have three seconds to attack you.
*If you cannot stand in it, they have 6-7 seconds to attack you, which can be covered with block, immune, evade, or stunbreak given they have basi slotted.
Stealth if anything makes thieves more predictable. That is, if you don’t flail about like a panicked turkey; you know they’re either going to attack you or run, and if they do the former you can prepare stun chains while they’re setting up.
Thief is in a bad spot right now because we can’t fight back against most meta builds that understand how stealth works and what thieves have in terms of options while in it for each weapon set. If not understanding those options is causing losses, that isn’t a problem with the thief being too strong.
If anything, the thief needs defensive buffs to be able to skirmish with the other classes.
Thieves mechanics are borderline toxic for games-
Actually, dont think I have anything to say to you, now that I think about it.
Nothing personal, I just came to the realization that other people might think like you and that outcry may be where all the nerfs are getting fed from.
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Throughout all of gw2’s history, thieves have been a very integral [mandatory] element due to their mobility, however , I think it is time to address some aspects of the class, namely the way their mobility and stealth come into play in Conquest.
I keep hearing that thieves are in a bad spot (mostly by thieves players) but they dont seem to realize the strength of basically forcing a 4v5 everywhere by constant decapping threat, or their ability to get out of vitually anything and anyone if so they wish with Sb 5 and stealth.
Are we honestly ok with this? Is it ok for a class to single handily dictate the pace of a match with only 2 abilities? I honestly dont think this translate to much fun to both the opponent or the thief himself, since there is no fighting involved at all, jsut running around all the match, “chasing” after the incapturable ….
I’ll hedge my bet of “this is a disgusting viewpoint” and ask you what you propose be done to fix the situation instead.
It takes skill to face a high damage opponent and spike him at the right time to cripple his defenses.
The builds are strong, but not invincible.
Pls do the Trahearne Puppet Anet.
Pls
Give him an overlord cloak.
And the same smug smile.
And have his voice actor suddenly be animated and manic.
HE WAS CREATED SOLELY FOR FACE HEEL TURN
CANACH CAN TAKE HIS PLACE.
Hmmm, new amulets. Aside from zealots, anything else you folks think would be interesting?
Trapper Runes.
@OP:
I’m personally fine with the rune. If you are against passive procs, there is a whole bunch of other ones I’d tackle first.
The rune is just bad by design, teaching bad habits to players.
I’m seeing more and more thieves only healing after the mist procs and other players behaving similarly stupid in fights.
Maybe they’re new.
Maybe they’re running zerker.
Healing before a mist proc when your heal is an evade depends on situation. If they’re expecting burst or cc, of course they’d save the heal knowing they have a buffer. That could easily be smart play.
CD bump would be agreeable, but asking it to be outright removed isnt necessary, and neither is making it situationally useless by making it proc too soon to be anything other than a tactical liability.
Shadow arts because its the only way you can condi cleanse reliably.
remove critical strike, spec executioner on Deadly arts if you want woahdamage or improv if you feel you might need some cds reset.
Its still strong, but not strong enough to carry bads.
could use tweaking but it isnt outrageous.
It saddens me to see so many post from “thief” players who do not even understand what their professional mechanic is. It is also sad to see the inaccurate claims from thief players stating you cannot stealth without initiative. Initiative is the professional mechanic, and you can stealth with runes+certain utility skills as well as certain utility and heal skills alone, using no initiative at all. My understanding is that stealth is intended to be a defencive mechanism, and it can and should be counterable. The abuse of this mechanic is what draws ire to it.
there is no parallel to what anti-stealth skills do to thief when compared to other profession’s defensive mechanics and their respective counters. stealth at this point is our only viable defensive option as we literally have no good out-of-stealth playstyles any more.
and i dont think anyone actually said any of the things you said they did, and you trying to “prove” these imaginary people otherwise only expands on how badly of a counter revealed skills are when they can entirely shutdown multiple utilities (nobody uses any stealth runes), a heal, and weapon skills.
feel like mesmers would understand that?
they have stealth elites & utilities just like theif. they rely on stealth for defense just like theif.
Mesmers do not have their condition purging, damage, and defense all tied to stealth.
Mesmers also have access to protection.
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How’s about we make the mistform proc on elite with the same cool down if they use the elite after they’ve been pushed past 50%,
Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Thief / DD elite suffers.
I’m okay with bumping up CD time, instead of this, or a more active heal on elite dependent on nearby enemies.
Oh my God, just remove the Invulnerable Mist, it’s that simple. There is absolutely no reason for ArenaNet to be battling #6 bugs on this rune for so long other than lacking creativity.
Change the last function to:
(6): When you use an elite skill steal health from all nearby foes. (Cooldown: 60s)Boom, easy, give it the same animation as Unholy Feast, give it a 400 radius and steals 491 health from up to 5 foes.
This is also fine if radius was larger.
Point taken with Cele D/D, but only because taking a minute to re-burst the elementalist is feasible and vamp will be up by then. Cooldown increase would fix this issue, but the issue is more the build than the rune.
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>block everyone
>complain why you never get queues.
on topic:
if theres 8 people ready to go, and one person has five people blocked of that set, then the game cant start and they all miss out
That seems like it could easily be a lot of potential gaming lost over already-dealt-with personal differences.
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You burst any build, vamp proc, and when it finishes teleport away. You had a kill without vamp runes, now you have nothing.
You have a class that cannot come near you for 60(90 is fine) seconds assuming it is a class with a blink off cd, he got the blink off without being stunlocked (mesmer only) -and- did not pick up bleeding/burning/poison/torment.
-and- had terrain suitable to obfuscate pursuit with said blink close enough to get to it with <20% HP remaining.
Those are rare instances. Not impossible instances, but rare.
Any other situation is literally waiting three seconds.
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Why this deserves a hard nerf I dont know.
Then don’t comment, or read up on the issue, sorry.
R00d
I am well aware of the “issue”
My statement was directed to why a minute long cd mist skill is so hard to counter that it deserves a hard nerf.
Coordinated burst? track him and poke him when he de-mists.
Is it a thief? Wait for the evade.
Anything else interrupt.
You’re asking to nerf several builds because some people can’t follow a smoking orb for a couple of seconds.
CD increase is fine, but 90% proc suggestion defeats the purpose of the rune and just leaves the player stuck in mist without any way to react to whatever just hit them. Any player attacking vamp player will hold their cds, and vamp player will have no skills to get away, block, or return damage. Instead of buying time for cds to come back up, it would just be a silly mid-battle pause.
That and, like I said, any heavy condi applied while rune user is under 20% cannot be purged. There’s ample room to counterplay the traits of the rune with any dot condi.
And since condi ignores toughness, it eats well into whatever HP constitutes 20% of any class, if not completely through.
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?
Why nerf when you can just apply condibomb before 25%?
Vamp rune mist proc locks you out of all skills and leaves a visible vapor trail. you cant cleanse when you’re in it, and if a user has heal off cooldown you can time interrupts for the moment they peel out of it.
Why this deserves a hard nerf I dont know.
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Hey, warrior cat thing that hates mantras chiming in again.
two things.
Mesmers dont bs:
“Mantras can be prepared before battle and then used freely, even in the middle of other actions without interrupting them.”
That being said it’s still 2.75 seconds of screaming your head off that can be stunned, dazed, or otherwise cut off, for a skill that can whiff.
It’s fine.
Where do some of you think you have any credibility when you do not play thief? I am not saying that thieves are underpowered since I do not know and do not play one just because there are meta builds does not mean they are fine.
One does not need to play a thief to realize that the class needs its defenses buffed in pvp.
^
He’s right you know.
Thief alt.
We just need sustain.
[Redacted for I am tired]
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Snipping to address some points. I’m tired.
Seeing as balance in the game is about making every class viable within 1 role, it kind of has to be that way.
? Since when is balance making every class good at doing one thing? Speccing should allow classes to do other roles to a satisfactory manner. It was one of the selling points of GW2.
Making thieves better at map mobility but worse total damage/1v1 potential than mesmers (really the only other class reliably competing for roaming dps roles) gives both a role. If you just have as much damage as a mesmer, you make the latter basically obsolete.
Says who?
For that matter, who says that 1v1 prowess [if we are discussing roles] belongs to the mesmer?
The official GW2 Wiki for thieves says that they are “deadly in 1v1 fights”.
Mesmers “make sure every fight is balanced in their favor”.
Thief isn’t great when caught in an even 1v1 or 2v2 when their partner is some bruiser class, but you can’t balance around poor use of the class. Thief isn’t meant to be good at skirmishing (bashing faces into one another). It is meant, according to past dev comments, to be great at creating and winning unfair fights. I’d say it does that to a T.
“Best at winning unfair fights” is not a role. It is proof you are not sleeping at your keyboard.
Apologies if I come off as harsh. I’m really tired of people saying “but you can be the best sidekick!” as a core argument for why Thief is okay.
And, I’d like to mention that no, I am not looking for more damage. I’m looking for the sustain (be that through blocks, evades, toughness or otherwise) built into the core thief so that they can be competent at 1v1. Instead of being a free bag/kill. Bursting down x class and calling that skill is boring. If I choose to pit my class against any other class though in a 1v1, the victor should be the one most skilled, rather than the one less encumbered by the mechanical hindrances of their class.
To assert anything otherwise because of a short range teleport that uses half of the resource pool a class uses to deal damage is something between asinine and petty, at least as far as I’m concerned.
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Man…some thieves will have you believe the class is unusable, yet every top team continues to run 1 as they have forever.
Note: Garbage argument.
Top teams run thieves because having a quick backcapper is useful, not because Thief at its core is a good skirmishing class.
couple things.
Mantras have always been insta cast and people didn’t moan about them a year ago, therefore the insta cast isn’t the issue.
Poor argument.
Coming from a warrior that hates power lock, I’m not going to agree with the op. The mantra has a precast time of 2 and 3/4 seconds just to get access to power lock. in the midst of combat that’s practically impossible. difficult to achieve.
Plus it essentially has their character scream “IM GONNA STUN YOU I GOT IT”
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
Apparently, the quips the characters make during critical hits are playing on the wrong flag. A norn should be saying “Hah! Extra damage” when he deals the critical hit, not when he receives it.
Same for other races.
Unless my client is bugged?
Is this a thing?
simple solution is to make #2 of the pistol a leap finisher
p/d wont use it but can combo with others combo
p/p will use it with #5 to stealth if needed to reposition or disengage
the hight cost of 6+4 initiative will prevent from spamming if you want to do some unload dmg
also #2 skill is unusable at the moment as 1 sec of immobilize which as for now every other class has immunity/decrease/cleanse of immobilize/chill/cripple and the 3 sec of 5 vulnerability WOW too op.
leap is okay too. Maybe a backwards evade or something.
That would require they change the animations though, and they are usually slow to do anim changes.
just saying.
There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P
Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.
Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].
I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.
My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.
Who is this no one, and where can I find him.
Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?
Argue for something that has a purpose, like a reworked Shadow Arts or better combat design, not this silly stuff.
[will debate consume facet and sneak gyro later when I have time.]
Re: The above:
This is quite true. That being said, it’s still silly to have an uncounterable debuff be placed on us because stealthing was uncounterable. That isnt fixing the issue, it’s just changing who’s on the losing end of it. Not only that, but revealed affects our status vs all nearby opponents, so it doesnt really matter that it’s a junk utility/trait in most cases, because one person carrying it works for your whole team, and if you’re roaming youll take it because thieves.
There are better issues to talk about, but this is one of them.
No, it isnt rampant, but the fact that certain classes can press a button to strip thieves of most of their defense, their damage potential and their condi purging is a stupid reality. We’re discussing SA and how dumb it is elsewhere I think.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
I’m disappointed in admitting that I’d welcome passives the way the game is now after being so adamant about “there should be counterplay”.
I really dont see any way to keep thieves reasonably ‘balanced’ with the class spread the way it is now.
Replace it with a mechanic that allows one person to see and target people in stealth for x amount of time. Lets call it “Clairvoyance”; so the profession would still be in stealth and couldn’t be targeted by everyone and their mother. They would still gain the passive defensive traits stealth gives but it also stealth no longer would be a free “get out of jail” card.
Sounds like that would depend on having whether a player is revealed or not be client sided.
Client sided means hackers.
Unless I’m ignorant of a better way to do that.
Probabllly not. but I like the concept.
The DPS of that build is not something that you expect. Besides, without either DA or CS, your DPS will take an even bigger toll. Stealthing is alway counter to DPS since you deal no damage while in stealth.
I understand this, but in this instance the stealth is useful for maintaining 900r between you and your target.
Also, the problem with p/p is it has no mobility. we just got a 20% dps increase on it, so I don’t see why “but dps” would be a problem when the build is pretty much stationary as is.
Adding stealth to P/P is the simplest fix that can be implemented without reworking all the weapon sets with pistol mainhand, all the sets with pistol offhand, or unload.
The problem being created is indeed mobility/stealth does no dps, but isnt that precisely what p/p needs? Without it it’s just facetank and die.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
+1.
+50 for super speed.
/15charrs
There is some hard-core drama queen thieves in here. All cranky over a 6 second reveal. But it’s ok, I get it. I mean after all, you thieves ha e literally no idea how to fight an opponent that can see you. ; P
Sure cant. We have the lowest hp pool in the game and everyone got a damage buff.
Our defensive measure is literally only given to us as a trait when we are in stealth. And it was nerfed before we got it, because [reasons].
I don’t see how people can just ignore that. Common sense says that if you increase the dps of every class, and increase all the mitigation availability of said classes, but allow the class with the smallest hp pool to have its defense removed because [reasons], they’re going to be justifiably angry.
My bad guys, the ones no one runs are not telegraphed. You got me.
Who is this no one, and where can I find him.
Better question, what reveals ‘are’ telegraphed? Why is stealthing not okay because [no counterplay], but reveals without counterplay are?
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
Why would any P/P Thief pick Fleet Shadow over Vigorous Recovery? Dodge already gives them Swiftness which makes Vigorous Recovery a better choice. 50% movement for 3s is meh.
In addition, you can’t spec for both SA and Acro at the same time without hurting your DPS.
Former: I’d pick it over vigorous recovery because instant cast stealth + 3 seconds of swiftness is better than having to waste a dodge for swiftness. Saving the dodge takes care of the lack of vigor. Also, Fleet shadow and instant cast stealth would resolve the mobility issues of P/P, because that’s 50% msi ,45% when in combat on demand, untargetable for 6 ini.
Latter: Daredevil is coming. Slotting DD would take priority over SA.
Running Zerker would be feasible with SA/ Acro if P/P gave stealth. Glassy ranged evasion is alright.
I myself think that P/P should only have access to stealth via combo (Black Powder + another skill). This makes it cost more ini so that it cannot be spammable. Imagine playing against a 1200 ranger that could stealth indefinitely at will. That would not be fun.
P/P is 900 range, but point taken. Instant cast still appealing to me though, and would only require changing one skill instead of messing with how pistol shots interact with one another, with one exception that isnt often used for its finisher properties.:
Either instant cast Back Powder stealth with an increased initiative cost (7? 8?)
or
Make body shot a blast finisher.
Alternatively, reduce the cost of Black powder to 4 and make it a blast finisher that also lays a field, so it combos with itself.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
If they’re going to attack you, they’ll reveal themselves. If they’re running away, youll be placed out of combat.
But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.
That’s the point. Playing a guessing game is not difficult. If a thief is winning, theyll stick around. If they are not, most likely they will run. Using your brain should not be an inconvenience.
I’m saying it removes counterplay.
No it doesnt. Some classes can reveal instantly by pressing one button. Interestingly enough, thieves do not have counterplay to this.
Tl;dr keep finger on stunbreak button. when revealed, cc.
(edited by Azure The Heartless.3261)
It’s also very noticable while running, and I really couldn’t care less about what other people see or have fun doing.
Bro.
It’s magnets. Invisible pocket raptors
Trust me.
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