Guild Wars 2

Gabriell.4856:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

ronpierce.2760:

They are dodgable for the most part.

Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to call you on this too, cause it’s a lie.

Not only are most of them untelegraphed, but you cannot dodge them in the case of Lock on and Sic’em.

They are literally spoon-fed solutions to the thief class.

As of right now, none of them are telegraghed as they are insta cast. But you know, forum warriors know more than we do.

Caught that and edited, did a little homework in the case of detection pulse.

ronpierce.2760:

They are dodgable for the most part.

Learn the telegraphs and prosper.

Yeah, I’m gonna have to call you on this too, cause it’s a lie.

Not only are they untelegraphed, but you cannot dodge them in the case of Lock on and Sic’em.

They are quite literally “press button, nerf thief.”

Feathers don’t float.

#Itsmagnets
#ItsMAGIC

I cant imagine how funny an unrooted hundred-blades would look on a charr.

That aside, some skills need to be rooted, especially ones that make you invuln or cause long evades.

All I need is instant cast stealth on bp.

Easy to implement, makes p/p viable, reason to pick Fleet Shadow.

Not even going to worry about damage or condi tweaking, people are crying that p/p is too strong already. We wont get away with anything better; I think we should just take the 20% and run while we can re: that.

Stinja.9612:

In all honesty it should show the trait as a buff on the class so you never have to play a guessing game. Its not like a thief’s life isnt hard enough already with the whole screw up once your dead thing.

Either that or a visual cue.

A glowing mesmer that has mirror of anguish up means we can time our cc so we dont get rng’d by it.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Remove the smoke field and allow for the SA stealth duration to apply to it to balance it out for d/p. Sounds fair.

This. you can even remove the blind on projectile (but keep projectile finisher at 100%) since nobody cares that it blinds. if you want to blind you use shadow shot.

That way P/P is instantly viable, and we have a reason to take fleet shadow in Acrobatics.

Alternatively, remove the projectile altogether and keep the smoke field to allow for blindstomps.

I personally dont care as long as the stealth is instant.

Black powder should stealth the thief that uses it instantly for one – two seconds.

The following lines from the Wiki need to be updated to reflect the current nature of Thief.

Thief Wiki

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.

They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.

TheLastNobody.8319:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The problem is not that there is too much reveal, the problem is we have no decent general purpose solution to conquest and roaming that does not make heavy use of stealth. Stealth is our damage mitigation, our condi cleanse, and our burst at the same time. In that respect, it -can- be called a class mechanic, because our class depends on it for many aspects of general combat.

Giving other classes means to break all of that at once is a kitten shame, sure, but the bigger shame is that we don’t have a decent alternative.

Or, more simply put:

“Experts at stealth and surprise-

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit."

^ Is a lie.

I never understood why they rolled all the sustain and condition removal into the SA line. That just seems like such a dumb design decision.

Yes it is. And that’s why its so painful when we just see

“oh yeah this class can reveal now”

“oh yeah heres a reveal for you too”

“Oh sup, taunt makes thieves break their own stealth”

And the like, because anyone running SA knows that if they want to do meaningful damage, getting touched by any of those means a loss, because they are stripped of -all- defenses minus the stun break they may have saved. Nobody wants to run Acrobatics because it just isnt up to par with what SA provides, even with reveal as big a problem as it is.

I don’t see why people are insisting we just sit back and be happy with this because mobility. That just seems like an almost catatonic coercion to be content with being target practice. And it isnt like we’re forced to play thieves either. I can roll warrior or anything else at any point if I just wanted to win. Thieves are -fun- for most of the people complaining, which is why we bother.

Right now, it isnt fun.

The problem is not that there is too much reveal, the problem is we have no decent general purpose solution to conquest and roaming that does not make heavy use of stealth. Stealth is our damage mitigation, our condi cleanse, and our burst at the same time. In that respect, it -can- be called a class mechanic, because our class depends on it for many aspects of general combat.

Giving other classes means to break all of that at once is a kitten shame, sure, but the bigger shame is that we don’t have a decent alternative.

Or, more simply put:

“Experts at stealth and surprise-

Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit."

^ Is a lie.

azyume.6321:

No one ever played PvE during the new shiny events? It is toxic as kitten and surpass PvP in any aspect. So my vote goes for that.

They’re only temporary though.
pvp is salt year-round.

meepeY.2867:

Is the build for PVP, PVE or WVW?

We’d be able to critic if we had more information

Seems like wvw since he bothered to choose armor names.

no amulet = not pvp.

EDIT: Nevermind, I’m an idiot. It’s for PVE. Anything works in PVE.

Looks good, but a tiny bit glassy.

I’d opt out of leeching venoms for hidden thief and bewildering ambush for slight of hand, since you’re running DD for your main weapon set. Caltrops on dodge is up for debate, but if you like it go for it.

I’d also probably use P/D. with a posse I’d take devourer venom for stacking immob.
Be careful with that build, it doesnt have stunbreaks. you mess up once/fight a mesmer with power lock and youll wipe.

EDIT: If you’re running venomshare, you should carry other thieves and have them carry the venoms you cannot. you need at least one stunbreak and I’d assume withdraw in case you get slapped with a basi/entangle or something else you cannot dodge.

The exalted are spectral humans that volunteered to become spectral by a Forgotten ritual.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten

They’re energy beings.

I suppose it’s feasible that some of them could have defected and become Mursaat, but lore says the Mursaat predate humanity, so it would be an anachronism if they were.

bliss.4305:

That being said, with the amount of mobility thief has, I would be shocked if we fall out of meta any time soon.

There’s nothing wrong with referencing strong players of thief community as well, as (in a way) they’re the representation of how a class plays under perfect circumstances.

You can only do your best to play your class to the fullest you can, but PvP will still be a game where the score of the match will be decided by the effort of 5 people.

You’re either deluding yourself or missing the point, I don’t know which so I don’t know how strongly to chide you. Let me attempt once more to frame it properly.

Thieves remain in meta. This much is true.

The reason why they remain in meta is itself part of the problem.

Thieves have the best vertical mobility of all classes. When it comes to capturing uncontested points, they are prime choices for the job.

The problem is this is all they are good at. Referencing strong players in the community for proof of thieves viability is practically pointless to do, because of course you will be able to name players that have a tightly knit team and that have their role integrated into the actions of their team.

Not all players want to play decap bot. Some actually want to duel, without needing to be restricted to the role of an add.

So, when it comes to top players being representatives of thieves being played “perfectly”, that is up for debate. The way I see it, those are representations of “thieves that delegated themselves to utility” to support their team. While there is nothing inherently bad about that playstyle existing, the fact that it is the only -viable- one (and noncombat largely at that) is the very core of the issue.

Apparently there is some divide between players that want to actually win one-on-one fights and players that believe that being worlds best backcapper automatically validates the class. It all depends on how you define the word viable. Some players that have team synergy find only decapping as viable. Not knocking that.

There are other players that actually want the satisfaction of being able to down classes in 1v1 with their skills while contesting. There’s no allowance for these players, and the problem is a large portion of the playerbase with some thieves included say that this allowance should not be made.

I mean, why have two weapon slots and five weapon skills if you’re only going to use one skill when not assisted?

Sigh.

“Thief is being annoying, nerf him so he cannot be annoying.”

Not OP, not too strong, not unavoidable, just annoying, and it still needs nerfing.

Shirk.6421:

Stealth should be a defensive mechanism, not something you stay in 24/7.

Use a reveal. Or call someone that has a reveal. He’s not going to kill you.

I’m very pleased with the list of fixes to DD.

Thank you very much for your attention.

I think the autobalance as it stands now is pretty reasonable.

>take a free win and goof off the rest of the match
or
>risk having to work for the win with a chance of being rekt

That being said, I dont take hotjoin seriously at all. If it is meant to be taken seriously, OP suggestions would be a good fix.

TBH if the key track was repeatable I’d nolife the hell out of it.

I dont play pvp for the rewards. I play it because it’s not boring.

Repeatable BL keys would be icing on the cake, and I’m reasonably sure that between players that think like I do and those explicitly looking for the keys, we’d see a heavy price drop in BL skins.

PVP – Most toxic.

WvW – Less Toxic, potential to be toxic

PVE – Sunshine and Rainbows.

Generally speaking, the more people’s success depends on walking on someone else, the more toxic they become, on any game.

Ragnarox.9601:

SkiTz.4590:

LMAO @ the thought the thieves are the most dangerous class out there….

Please , get real.

They are good at mobility (quick decaps, +1ing teamfights) and ganking a target in teamfights, but thieves go down in an instant if they are caught without stealth for more than a few seconds…..

They lose a lot more duels now with other specs getting buffed….
ALl they can do is get in a few cheap shots/steals , and than they HAVE to stealth out . otherwise they get nuked in 5 secs…. thieves are not scaring anyone nowdays…. they have an extremely niche role (mobility/decaping/ganking a target)….

There are very few good duelers out there with thief to scare anyone in a 1v1 situation….they are not a dangerous class at all….

Good thieves reroled to mesmers and eles, because players exploit op classes a lot. thieves were op for more than 2 years so after some balancing you did get what you deserve. Eles are nerfed little by little i hope they balance mesmers in near future.

And yes they are dangerous because you have stealth so yo ucan pick targets to kill. Stop playing like warriors and guardians and use what you got.

Your reasoning is poor, but not unique to the general mindset.

Thieves did not deserve to be nerfed into the role of an add. No class -deserves- that, even if they were what you would call ‘op’ beforehand.

The fact that you acknowledge that good thieves rerolled, and yet continue to assert that thieves are fine astounds me. We doing doublethink now?

Common sense would dictate that the experienced players suddenly rerolling means there’s something off with the class. You dont suddenly drop a class simply because another class becomes more dangerous. Something must also be fundamentally wrong with the class you originally had to spur you to leave.

I can pick my targets without stealth. Thieves know not to facetank by nature of the class, we’ve always been squishy.

Quit your generic line of reasoning for a second.

Necromancer going from “free target” to “monster” with elite spec?

I’m all for that.

Why do the mordrem husks avoid the Orrian Sea?

They never bring their swimming trunks.

badummtss

Two things

Josh Davis.6015:

D Tier
Hugh “Nightmare” Norfolk

Savage

Tier list is accurate, but I dont want to talk about it anymore. I’ll just try 3x as hard.

legenduu.4372:

I was in a 1v1 pvp lobby, playing s/d crit, i beat an ele then he stated “thief is the strongest class omg, ele’s have the weakest damage” -_- DONE

edit: i uninstalled after

You gonna let a bad player force you out of the game by complaining that you dont try hard enough?

while you play thief?

Tell him to suck it.

pistols are outranged by most other projectile weapons in the game and require the thief to give up mobility.

If you’re floating in ~900 range without a block and you aren’t getting closer, you deserve unload.

It’s prob just an oversight.

I didn’t even think about it until you brought it to my attention.

Ask with about 25% less vitriol and maybe we’ll get them. It’s not like we need those to live.

Exciton.8942:

Petoox.6570:

Exciton.8942:

Only spec that can die in this meta is like warrior. And even they have double endure pain.

Thief dies pretty easily too, hit them once and they are down to 10% hp and then apply like 1 or 2 condis thief will be dead.

A half-decent thief won’t die either. The current meta for thief is also full sustain and utility.

>Thief meta is full sustain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cgbZqR2AGI

Kyrion.2749:

It was planned to be a shaft (a staff shaft) but then, ‘thieves got the shaft’ would be too obvious, and they changed it to something less conspicuous.

I’m weak

Please take this +1

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

hands up

Thats all I want.

babazhook.6805:

The Winged foot is the symbol of the Greek God Hermes. Hermes is considered the God of thieves. one of his characteristics was great speed.

The planet mercury and the Roman God Mercury is just a renaming of Hermes and the naming of Mercury the planet was based on its speed in orbit . The Element mercury was also called “quicksilver” due to its fluid nature and how it flowed again referencing Hermes.

Uh, Hermes wore sandals
[insert hipster noises here]

Just a note.

I sure as hell don’t think I can orchestrate the events that Karl does in order to develop for the thief apart from coding and playtesting. Maybe I dont have the viewpoint span that he has as well regarding the concept of balance that is supposedly grasped by the game.

That being said, I am a thief player. I spend (and have spent) a reasonable amount of time actually experiencing the class from the endpoint of the user, and I’ve been a gamer for a while and would venture to say I know the difference between losing a game because of inexperience and losing a game because of bad design.

And right now, I feel as if I’m suffering from the latter. Maybe thatll change after I check the recent adjustments, maybe not.

Just know that you aren’t supposed to just taking potshots at trying to -fix- the class. Many of us are more than happy to calm down and tell you precisely what we would need to genuinely enjoy the class, but at the very least there needs to be an acknowledgement that we’ve provided some kind of information as to why we do or do not enjoy certain features, so we know that we have some kind of sway over how soon wed be able to get back to thief maining.

DD feedback is fine, but the core is still suffering.

I read “double shortbow” and I stood up in my chair and staggered against the wall.

This is either the beginning of madness or the most genius thing I have ever witnessed.

Khandarus.2738:

There is no hope. Only more nerf

This

I am having more fun on the forums than I am playing the actual game.

I think we require further comment on what is wrong with this combat log.

>grabs popcorn
>drags metal chair loudly over floor
>sits and leans forward

MarauderShields.6830:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

(…) then I saw that the Daredevil’s new icon is a shoe with a wing on it

suddenly they seem to have gotten loose

xD Awesome trolling. At least now we have it confirmed by the devs that running around in circles really fast is teef’s class skill.

This is exactly the epiphany I reached.

the devs Want it to be this bad.

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

be·hoove
it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something; it is incumbent on.

Taking a little bit of time to use a search engine is a useful skill to have.

As is critical thinking.

He meant “what do we have to do with ‘picking up the slack’ of a group that is paid to ensure that aspects of their game function in a way that is enjoyable to the users?”

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just a little fun fact, if nobody does anything to keep things from messing up then everyone is to blame when things do get messed up. So it would behoove everyone if someone picked up anet’s slack.

I’m sorry, you’re speaking a language I dont understand.

I was about to control my emotions and then I saw that the Daredevil’s new icon is a shoe with a wing on it

suddenly they seem to have gotten loose

Karl doesnt have to confront anyone if he doesnt choose to.

I dont think anyone faces negative repercussions if we don’t like playing one class out of all of them :L

Just reroll. The dev team is either having issues comprehending that the class needs help, or is reluctant to buff us outside of easily reversible, standoffish variables for fear that we might upset everyone else.

Thief is either going to be too strong or too weak. I don’t think they have it in them to find the sweetspot.

ESKan.6782:

Helicity.3416:

… the OTHER condi thief’s opener already, right?

You mean this was two thieves?

Lmao

What do you want, OP

Just what do you want

Helicity.3416:

I think you’ll find that was 15.5k damage.

Your point?

I mean, he dumped his whole utility bar to do that to you, and you didnt condi cleanse.

What do you want?

I decided to run some nonsense for a couple hours, and with a little tinkering I found that
this build was surprisingly effective for a build that is centered around AI. The thief AI base damage is not high, but with fury procs they’re pretty annoying. Improv resetting TG is also fun to watch.

I’m looking into tweaking it a little, maybe I can force it into being something decent for 1v1. Thoughts on polishing?

I dont think just making our attacks ignore skillful play is the way to go about it. Thieves shouldn’t just be able to spam their attacks and ignore shields.

I’m just fine with working for wins. That needs to be possible first, and not so possible that it is easy, at that.

Sustain may be a good place to start. scaling up rejuv (slightly) or increasing base vit/toughness seems like it could begin to alleviate the issue.

Ausfer.1853:

20% damage is a start but the conditions are still mediocre, and there’s still no survivibility, and there’s still no way to hit multiple targets …. this change is missing the point of why players don’t like p/p.

This.

Unload is good. but even if it did 20% more damage we still have no way to remain mobile with that damage.

Is it difficult to change -several- skills if you equip two pistols, instead of just the middle skill?

Once again, our problem is not that we cannot instagib hard enough. It is that we have no way to be “thiefy” vs. other classes with the majority of our builds. We suffer shutdowns with extreme prejudice, and even if we see them coming with many builds there is very little we can do.

If we can push to avoiding a sizeable amount of damage with skillful play, that’s enough.

I’m even willing to give up ricochet for that.

bennedict.4892:

How is it, I’m specced zerker, and myself and a warrior are beating on an ele and he literally stands there and takes no damage? His health bar doesn’t move and he killed us both in about 6 seconds. WTF?

bennedict.4892:

I’m specced zerker

bennedict.4892:

Ele

This is why. a Zerker thief against anything, especially Ele, is a big no no.

On topic:

I have a small sliver of hope that it may actually bring me some enjoyment.

Couple of things I’d like to mention.

Shalien.9018:

The negativity comes from the fact that there is no dev response on the outstanding issues.

This is true.

We’re negative because we on top of the vitriolic whispers about SB5 being too strong, the absolute glassiness of the class, the shoehorning into pvp roles of “decaping and +1” and the cries from the other classes that this shoehorning is somehow right and proper and the comparative lackluster elite spec we received compared to every other class, somehow we still get people asking us to sit down and be happy (many of whom don’t even play the class and have never tried it in their lives, how dare you) and apparent ignorance of the devs on how much of a genuinely bad time we have across the board when we play thief.

It’s not much bigger than that. We don’t expect some kind of apology, we don’t even really need a “we’re working on it.” we just would like to see results, to see steps taken that would make our class somewhat competitive.

It seems like a genuine kick in the teeth at some points. We had to howl to get a pistol buff, and now theres some word on the wind that future game mechanics will simply circumvent dodging, which would be okay if our entire spec buff was not solely built around that mechanic.

Some people may say it better. Some people may not. The fact of the matter is we’re in a bad spot, and every day we remain in that bad spot someone who dares to play the class is not enjoying it, not because of skill deficiency but because of class inadequacy.

And its not like we’re being paid to run thief. We like running it, but most of us can learn X class if we just wanted to win.

docMed.7692:

Thieves dominate most power builds:

war

If you play perfectly. any mistake causes you to down, but winning is possible and I like the risk. I agree here.

ranger

??? Taunt breaks all thief heals except malice.

mesmer

???

other thieves

This is a given since these matchups are largely skill based

We’re struggling against everyone else. Condi pressure wrecks us. Sustain builds are unkillable (not that I care), but even power builds outsustain us.

If we had a small window of opportunity that allowed us to win if we played perfect vs other classes, I would be fine. But that isnt the case. We have to stack as much damage as possible, cross our fingers and hope we catch someone off guard before they pop their instant cast block and passively retal/burn us to death.

Its not high risk, high reward anymore. Its high risk, no reward vs. too many specs.

Supreme.3164:

Thieves asking to efficiently 1vs1 all other classes that must invest in defense-

Hold on…..*why the hell should I even play any other profession if a thief can simply 1vs1 anybody

Like…:" Oh KK dear devs I want the defensive options to 1vs1 that tanky guy..

We dont even have the sustain to 1v1 the dps specs right now. Just thought I’d mention that.

This is strawmanning. asking for general 1v1 sustain does not = “want to win against tank specs”. Stealth does nothing for us at the moment combat wise but delay death.