Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Sorry – didn’t mean to crush your illusions
We need some more reddit pve’ers/RPers who start riots every time a nerf like this happens.

fix’d

only time when anet pays attention is when people on reddit post muffin pics

i think more effective way would be gathering all thief players and protest at any event anet tries to do on gamescon until they actually do something about this prof

From past examples quickest way to get Anet to make a change, be a female, have a handful of Followers on your Twitch stream, make an arbitrary complaint, next day a fix will be made…

If you don’t mind being at a high disadvantage to others run Thief The old Da/Tr/Sa D/P build still works pretty well.

This is a vault with marauder amulet Executioner Havik Mastery Staff mastery Scholar runes against a scrapper with prof and Bulwark with scrapper runes in paladin amulet

Critical hit
((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*(1.33*1.33))= 3138

(Weapon*Power*Coefficient)(Crit damage*Scholar*Executioner*Havok*Staff Mastery)/ Armor(Prot*Bulwark)=damage as crit. If you have Flawless Strikes it would be the damage times 1.07

Critical hit:
(2069.739884393064 * ((1.5 + 0.1 + 0.15) * 1.1 * 1.07)) * 1.15 * 1.1 = 5392.880609501446

You don’t add the damage modifiers they are multiplicative

Damage = (Skill damage * Positive multipliers) / (Armor * Negative multipliers)

Kageseigi.2150:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

The damage multipliers are multiplicative. In PvP I find Assassins to provide more burst, due to more crits.m, while Berserker tends to due more overall.

Thanks! So the traits No Quarter and Practiced Tolerance give me about 30% increased critical damage, while Ferocious Strikes gives me about a 21.7% increase (assuming a base of 217% critical damage), correct?

Ferocious Strikes doesn’t increase your Critical Damage the way ferocity/Critical Damage does, it is applied after your critical strike is already calculated which makes it very strong.

It would look like this (weapon damage*Power*coefficient)(Crit Damage*positive damage Modifiers)/ (Armor*negative damage modifiers)= crit damage*1.07= Actual damage

Kageseigi.2150:

DeceiverX.8361:

SA should be giving you way better cleansing unless you spend most of your time out of stealth, either indicating that you’re not playing OH pistol or simply aren’t playing it in a manner cohesive to the traits, which as you said, is probably because you play too aggressively.

Yeah, I definitely use D/P, but I don’t use Stealth very much. Shadow Arts gave me issues with my playstyle…

I either don’t enter Stealth for just one condition, lest giving up a point… or I get hit with a lot of conditions at once, which would force me to spend way too much time in Stealth… or I get hit with one condi as soon as I cleanse another, in which Revealed lasts too long for me to enter Stealth enough.

Whatever the case, Critical Strikes feels a LOT faster in downing targets… whenever I can manage to down them. I tried Bountiful Theft with Shadow Arts, but I couldn’t get the boon-steal to balance out my condition-survivability. At the level I play at, I’m just happy to get a team who fights on point and doesn’t afk if down. Unfortunately, boon-steal doesn’t fix “impaired judgment.”

DeceiverX.8361:

I think you over-value NQ; it’s a very small increase in damage such that it’s almost tied by Ferocious Strikes alone.

Perhaps so. I think I also undervalue Practiced Tolerance. It adds nearly 14% critical damage. No Quarter gives over 16% additional critical damage. So with Ferocious Strikes, that’s what… 40+% critical damage just for those 3 traits?

Actually, how do Ferocious Strikes and Flawless Strike work? Are they additive or multiplicative?

Also, what is your opinion about Ferocious Strikes? Do you believe it would be acceptable to allow it to affect targets even below the 50% health threshold, or perhaps mirror Executioner to increase it to 20% damage increase against foes above 50% health?

EDIT: One more question… which amulet is numerically superior for DPS? Berserker or Assassin?

The damage multipliers are multiplicative. In PvP I find Assassins to provide more burst, due to more crits.m, while Berserker tends to due more overall.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Not disagreeing or intending to be confrontational. Just kind of shocked that despite our previous bouts you’d think we’d never be able to see eye-to-eye on anything.

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Then I fought a power d/d thief and realized that your weaponset of choice actually has build variety.

See I asked this thief about how he makes D/D viable, and he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

That’s more of a crutch build than SA ever was. $10 says the guy runs IR, too.

Daredevil is the epitome of crutches for thief. Actually, I’d reckon it’s probably the most potent set of crutches out of every profession/mechanic in the game except for dire geared-condi mesmer.

In all seriousness, nobody gets to brag about dropping crutches until they move to builds like DA/CS/Tr.

Does Da/Tr/Cs with P/P count as no crutches? Lol

Trick is a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no mental capacity to manage their Initiative pool.

You have to move to CS/DA/Acro to remove all crutches.

But Acro provides vigor and shorter steal CD, and a passive dodge, and heals on attacking or Ini and Regen on dodges which is even more of a crutch.

So the only non crutch solution is to only run DA/CS without third line activated.

lol, you caught on fast. When this is done, every trait line is a crutch.

10 hr day at work can’t compute online sarcasm today.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Not disagreeing or intending to be confrontational. Just kind of shocked that despite our previous bouts you’d think we’d never be able to see eye-to-eye on anything.

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Then I fought a power d/d thief and realized that your weaponset of choice actually has build variety.

See I asked this thief about how he makes D/D viable, and he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

That’s more of a crutch build than SA ever was. $10 says the guy runs IR, too.

Daredevil is the epitome of crutches for thief. Actually, I’d reckon it’s probably the most potent set of crutches out of every profession/mechanic in the game except for dire geared-condi mesmer.

In all seriousness, nobody gets to brag about dropping crutches until they move to builds like DA/CS/Tr.

Does Da/Tr/Cs with P/P count as no crutches? Lol

Trick is a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no mental capacity to manage their Initiative pool.

You have to move to CS/DA/Acro to remove all crutches.

But Acro provides vigor and shorter steal CD, and a passive dodge, and heals on attacking or Ini and Regen on dodges which is even more of a crutch.

So the only non crutch solution is to only run DA/CS without third line activated.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Everything from HoT except power reaper is an abomination, daredevil included.

I hate the fact that you’re making a statement that I have nothing to say but to agree.

Are you really so callous as to think you should inherently disagree with everything I say because we disagree on other subjects?

Obviously I made that post because I don’t think that I should be inherently in disagreement with you on everything. Yet, here we are, in a disagreement again.

Not disagreeing or intending to be confrontational. Just kind of shocked that despite our previous bouts you’d think we’d never be able to see eye-to-eye on anything.

Azukas.1426:

Jana.6831:

No, azukas talks about condi as to him/her D/D is a typical condi set and was never meant to be power OR EVEN IF WE HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW AND STOP COMPLAINING ALREADY

Then I fought a power d/d thief and realized that your weaponset of choice actually has build variety.

See I asked this thief about how he makes D/D viable, and he replied, “You have to cut the cord from the SA trait line. It’s a crutch that bad thieves rely on because they have no reaction times.”

He the told me he runs Acrobatics, Trickery, and Daredevil.

That’s more of a crutch build than SA ever was. $10 says the guy runs IR, too.

Daredevil is the epitome of crutches for thief. Actually, I’d reckon it’s probably the most potent set of crutches out of every profession/mechanic in the game except for dire geared-condi mesmer.

In all seriousness, nobody gets to brag about dropping crutches until they move to builds like DA/CS/Tr.

Does Da/Tr/Cs with P/P count as no crutches? Lol

Straegen.2938:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Yeah haven’t had issues yet, I’m not running the pure Yolo build, and I kite, now if you dump absolutely everything into it and fail then yes you will die instantly but with Shadowstep, Blinding powder and positioning I can normally bait out all of the defensive Cooldowns to allowing me to open up for the kill. I have also ran Staff as secondary in some matches when I play DrD for this build and it allows me to burst/survive if they do close on me.

Sounds nice at low level unranked play. I wouldn’t bring that into ranked play particularly at the higher levels. The first point defense Druid, Scrapper, Tempest, Guardian, etc just tears through them. Its not like those other classes don’t have an answer for Shadow Step. When I play thief I have to keep Shadow Step and SB up just to get a slight distance from Druids.

I have used it in Ruby this season (have only been playing for kittens and giggles this season mostly have been in WvW)and up to diamond last season, I haven’t had issues with kiting people, when playing with the DrD variant the BP> Bound is amazing I lose out on some burst but it allows even more kiting, I don dump all I in in to unload spam. Then with Blinding powder or BP/Bound before Shadowstepping They have to guess where I went and can’t just port to me, right now the only classes that give me issues with the build are Scrappers and Eles.

Normally I will engage with one unload most times they will start popping their defensive CDs I stealth wait out the Defense open up with Sneak Attack see if they waste more CDs restealth so on normally I can burst most DHs in a matter of seconds, while keeping them at range, the Druids are a little harder to crack mostly have to play LoS games with them, I won’t go after certain points if a Druid is on it, I have found this build works best on Khylo and Forest for all of the LoS spots.

If I run the Core Da/Tri/ Cs build I will stay range focusing targets down with quick 100-0 bursts, normally act as a ranger pet to another player, and decap empty nodes or harass players trying to travel to nodes since they don’t try to fight most times.

On either of the builds a good Thief will give me issues, since they can employ similar tactics as well as stick on me easier while I kite.

Yes I pulled a potato, you win this time Engie overlords.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

Hold on… Are you crying about Thunderclap? Sorry, but your argument conveniently totals up each hit into one big number when it’s an AoE field that does its damage divided into 5 ticks for a total of 5 seconds to do all of its damage. Furthermore, you’d have to be a very bad player to stand in it for its entire duration. Go ahead and divide those numbers by 5 and suddenly your argument looks a lot less convincing in the realm of overpowered damage. A Revenant auto-attacking with quickness does more DPS.

Then that was a misunderstanding and my mistake, I thought coefficient was applied to each pulse and was not derived of all 5 pulses together.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro.

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2625*1.33*1.33)= 3138 rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

Testing against Target Golem Medium proves your math is utterly erroneous.

Try again, Thief player.

Provide proof then and I know you haven’t tested the damage in the last 3.5-4 hours , also medium test golem has 2322 armor which is more armor than the Thief does running meta marauders. So with that being the case

(1048*2225*3.78)/2322=3796 rounded up non crit average

((1048*2225*3.78)1.5)/2322=5694 rounded up crit average.

Sins.4782:

You forgot to factor in defense from armor. That makes a huuuge difference considering no extra toughness from amulets. Unless your thief is wearing no armor for some reason?

Good catch I thought the numbers looked off, I am doing this from my phone and while on break from work will update numbers.

Straegen.2938:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

P/P in sPvP brings out all the salt. I love it.

Until higher levels of play where virtually every point defense build laughs at it.

Yeah haven’t had issues yet, I’m not running the pure Yolo build, and I kite, now if you dump absolutely everything into it and fail then yes you will die instantly but with Shadowstep, Blinding powder and positioning I can normally bait out all of the defensive Cooldowns to allowing me to open up for the kill. I have also ran Staff as secondary in some matches when I play DrD for this build and it allows me to burst/survive if they do close on me.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats

Made up numbers are made up. Stop making numbers up.

Not made up numbers learn math

Let’s see, Hammer damage is 985-1111 so let’s take the midway point rounded down which is 1048, now let’s see here Paladins give 1050 power and 1050 Precision base power is 1000, Thunderclap has a damage coefficient of 3.78, and this will be hitting thief with 1000 toughness since Marauders. And this is not including the stats from the runes or from the might for the scrapper.

(1048*2050*3.78)/2029= 4002 rounded down non crit. With no other damage modifiers. On average.

Now let’s see it as a Crit since scrapper has 150 crit damage with a crit chance of 54%

((1048*2050*3.781.5)*1.5)/2029= 6004 rounded up again no might or rune power and ferocity not factored in on the average damage.

Now since i can steal protection on a thief let’s adjust for 33% damage reduction

(1048*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)= 3009 rounded down.

Now against a crit.
((1048*2050*3.781.5)1.5)/(20291.33)=4514 rounded down.

Now let’s see what it does at the lowest possible outcome
(985*2050*3.78)/2029=3762 rounded up

And one more time with stolen protection
(985*2050*3.78)/(2029*1.33)=2828 rounded down

Again these are not factoring in the additional power/ precision or ferocity that the meta scrapper gets from runes or the might they generate on.
These are averages there will be some variation with the added values, and since Thief doesn’t have any reliable access to protection/ frost aura/ other passive damage mitigation these are pretty standard to see in the combat log.

Let’s take a look at 1 quick vault from the Thief with everything factored in against a scrapper with protection and Bulwark gyro and scrapper runes

((1048*2050*2.25)(1.94*1.1*1.20*1.07*1.1))/(2689*1.07*1.33*1.33)= 2863rounded up on a critical with all of my glorious damage modifiers.

Now a quick look at the damage output of running rune of the Scrapper
Scrapper damage
(1048*2225*3.78)/2029=4344 rounded down non crit
((1048*2225*3.78)*1.5)/2029=6516 rounded down which low and behold falls within the 4-7k damage that you tried calling me out on.

Edited my kitten forgot to factor in armor in my calculations.

Added in more calculations.

P/P in sPvP brings out all the salt. I love it.

Fay.2357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

but once it’s up you can do anything in it and can share it with 4 other players for up to 5 seconds

Uh, no. It can be shared for 1 second, and that share has a 5 second internal cooldown. Invuln is nowhere near op, I’d recommend you stop trying to frame it as such because it looks foolish and diminishes your points against resistance.

I haven’t played my Mesmer in a while forgot about the 1 sec for the share. And I am not against Resistance, I like it since now there is more counter play to the condie cancer in game.

Wargameur.6950:

I thought they implemented it like Bountiful Theft. If I’m right the boon rip happens even if they block ( not sure about that one).

But I still like the idea of multiple boon stripping if they block.

No it has to land for it to Steal the boons.

Jeknar.6184:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Was referring to the endure pain and Signet of Stone comment, but all of the other invulns, which are most form, obsidian flesh (allows you to still attack, and do everything else), distortion (which allows you to attack and do everything else as well it can be shared), elixir s, and renewed focus are all real invulns

Elixir S and Renewed Focus also don’t allow you to do anything other than move for the duration. Endure Pain and Signet of Stone users can still be affected by conditions and CC. Any of the Invulnerable effects don’t make you invulnerable to conditons that are already applied (Distortion also do not stun break you).

Yes the elixir s doesnt allow you to do anything except for stomp, renewed focus doesn’t allow you to do anything but it is still powerful in that it gets you through Hard Cc, and again SoS and EP are not Invulnerabilities so of course cc affects them. I was referring to the fact that Jim Hunter was saying that invulns don’t stop Hard Cc which is a lie, yes distortions doesn’t break a stun but once it’s up you can do anything in it and can share it with 4 other players for up to 5 seconds, and yes condies still affect you but with Resistance direct damage still affects the players affected by it, and Resistance can be corrupted.

Invuln is to direct damage and cc as Resistance is to Condie damage and Soft cc.

I don’t fight on point, the amount of Aoe and CC on point is a pure death sentence, I don’t 1v1 classes unless I know I can burst them in less than 10 seconds.

the problem I have with Scrapper is the fact they can do anywhere between 4-7k per tick on their Aoe skills without having to even give up Tanky stats. Yet say a full glass thief will only get aroun2-4K on a crit with more setup and being single target. There is no reason for a class that has so much on point pretense to have the passive sustain as well as the amount of active mitigation on most of their weapon skill.

Right now the only classes I avoid in PvP matches are Eles and Scrappers, since 9/10 I will be punished just for attacking them, I don’t even have problems with DHs good or bad with my Thief build and I run around with 11k Hp and DHs are the Thieves main Hardcounter.

And serj if they were running the meta build the reflects would absolutely nothing against the DHs, which are easier to use than engies, in most cases, there are crap Engies out there too, I have killed a few with AAs before.

Maybe I will go into PvP and try out scrapper to see how low of damage it really does.

Wargameur.6950:

I can’t tell if I’m against that ICD or not. D/P offers enough as a set to go around a cooldown on backstab. I never spammed the stealth attack on other sets ( I stopped using d/d a while ago ).

However, I find rending shade quite nice and it fits in the game looking at all the boons going around. On my mesmer I get around 200 boons applied to myself each pvp game for instance.

I don’t think rending shade is too OP. I would even argue that without a 1s CD it would be a good counter to blocks and invulnerability in a really interesting way. Since you you can redo stealth attacks on block and invulns, it litteraly sucks the boons out of the target.

The drawback of invulnerability, is that your boons can be removed by thieves. isn’t it nice? It gives us a unique mechanic and could mitigate the use of invulns/blocks through a mind game. “Is it worth using invulns now and loose my boons, or is it better to keep my boons ?” That sort of thinking.

Yes it would remove aegis, but seriously compare the amount of aegis and the amount of other invulns / block and you will see it’s not a problem.

It might also be OP keeping the boon steal, I’m not against a simple boon strip on rending shade.

Rending shades has to land for it to rip the boon, so hitting a block or invuln does not rip a boon, and with it having to land the Hit you get the revealed debuff which is a 3 sec CD already built in.

morrolan.9608:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

Reading your posts one would get the idea that engi’s are dominating the meta both in normal ranked play as well as the pros, yet its not happening. You seem to be making statements about the theoretical damage output and sustain of engis from looking at a spreadsheet rather than evaluating whats happening in practice.

Let’s see when I get hit by an Engie on average non crit is over 4K on a crit 7k. When I hit an Engie with all of my damage modifiers it hits for about 1.4-2k on a crit…..

And my class has to be fully invested in damage and damage modifiers to be effective on other classes I can hit anywhere from 3-6k on a crit

Now mix the engies damage with all of their CCs and Defenses I am getting hit a lot more than I can hit him.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Which is similar overall damage as say a rev or Thief with marauders.

Nope. Read my reply again:

Velimere.7685:

The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

there are a lot of DHs and Necros and a few eles using clerics that reach those number last season without doing any real damage against players.

Like with the Ele you could do a lot of damage on the overall damage recap without killing any one or being a threat to any player .

That is exactly the point being made against you. Thank you for agreeing with it.

High coefficients don’t matter much when they’re only giving you small bursts of damage or decent cleave or on-point (small point) pressure. A Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet shouldn’t be killing you in a 1v1 unless you’re refusing to disengage a small point, and even then he still has his hard counters.

The problem is the high damage they have with the sustain and defensive options tied to the same skills, learn how to understand those concepts, you are using a amulet that provides crap for dps on any other class but scrapper while high dps classes have to run full glass to hit for equivalent damage with out the defensive options on the same skills.

I can burst someone for 12- 20k and kill any target on my thief which no defensive options on those attacks which is great but I only do on average 200k- 400k on the recap, again the old clerics Ele could do high damage over 8-9 minutes due to Aoe but low damage overall, using the recap as a justification or damage meter is very stupid it proves absolutely nothing. Scrappers can 1v1 most classes on point pretty effectively and kill most match ups since most of the opposition have to run glass amulets to do enough damage to even make a dent in the Scrappers health pool, and if you try to kite with range most classes have projectiles which the scrapper negates those on pretty short CD.

and Scrappers only hard counter is a reaper that’s it 1 out of 9 classes….. And the only reason is the amount of unblockable and the corruption attacks.

Velimere.7685:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

For a Scrapper using Paladin’s Amulet, 300k damage in a match is good, 400k is great, and 500k is amazing. The overall damage a Scrapper does in a match is by no means overpowered. I can see comparable numbers with a Paladin’s Amulet on a Revenant.

Which is similar overall damage as say a rev or Thief with marauders. The overall recount doesn’t mean much at the end of a map, there are a lot of DHs and Necros and a few eles using clerics that reach those number last season without doing any real damage against players.

Like with the Ele you could do a lot of damage on the overall damage recap without killing any one or being a threat to any player .

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

I’m always prepared to listen to good points of view and change my position, but above average coefficients don’t correlate to an overtuned profession. They aren’t based on PvP variables like kiting, melee uptime, and what the Scrapper is good at (it’s not chasing people around with Hammer).

Above average coefficients are when they have the extra rider affects on the damaging skills, and now with Anet willing to split pve and PvP balance they can lower the damage coefficients without impacting pve gameplay.

Ayrilana.1396:

carabidus.6214:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

carabidus.6214:

HoT is not only missing dungeons, but about 20 additional maps, more armor sets, etc. We did pay $50-$60, which is the price of the base game, and we all know the wealth of content that exists in vanilla GW2. I’m all for more dungeons and a AAA title’s worth of content…

Every video game expansion offers only one main zone and supplementary areas for the same price as the base game has been that way for years.

Really?

This is a standard ANET expansion.

It’s easy to see for yourself that the amount of content in HoT is laughable compared to Eye Of The North, dungeons notwithstanding…

EoTN dungeons were essentially copy and pasted in quite a large percentage of areas. This ignoring how completely different GW1 is compared to GW2.

Especially given the fact that Gw2 was never supposed to have an expansion and they have the Living Story, hopefully they do a little better with the next expansion

FiveGauge.1357:

Velimere.7685:

That weapon is also very underpowered despite its stated high coefficient.

It’s not underpowered, rather just intended to be a high concentration of Scrapper’s power budget. Explaining further below

BlaqueFyre.5678:

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

It keeps coming around to this absolute statement that: “no ability can have defense and offense at the same time, or it’s an issue”, which is a nonsensical statement.

We see lots of professions having very key abilities that are a huge concentration of their overall power, and combine offense and defense. I feel Thief and Rev are pretty skillful and balanced professions, despite Bound, Vault, Unrelenting Assault, Surge of the Mists, all extremely good examples that combine offense and defense.

A profession can have most of their profession’s strength coming from few abilties, one weapon, or one traitline, or profession mechanic, and this is intended. Shifting Engineer from many streams of damage sources from kits, and towards a single damage source in Hammer, and Gyros to provide defensive utility exactly what the intended vision for Scrapper is.

Because now the Scrapper is designed around relying on one single damage source (Hammer) instead of many (multiple kits), Hammer is very compact in filling the offensive/defensive gap created.

In the context of this discussion, (PvP Profession Balance) Scrapper Hammer filling multiple holes in a build and being very concentrated in budget is not an issue until a good argument is made about the Scrapper performing in unintended ways like being too good compared to others at the same roles.

It’s all good, dude, no need to stress about the individual skills, just focus on the big picture in profession balance.

Yes but rev and thief have to have glassy stats to get decent damage from there main burst skills. Let’s take Vault being the highest damaging skill that has an evade frame for a 1/4 second of the total 1/2 cast, uses over a bird of their available resource pool, is highly telegraphed and has long aftercast, and still only has a 2.25 damage coefficient. While the other attack range from .65 damage coefficient to 1.67.

Now let’s look at a skill that Engie has that’s similar to vault. rocket charge gives you a 1 second evade, on a 1 3/4 cast that has a 3.0 damage coefficient that can hit up to 3 times on up to 5 people

And then you have Thunderclap which Stuns, cause Vulnerability, hits 5 times and has a 3.78 damage coefficient.

scrapper hammers lowest coefficient is a .8 on auto attack, while thief has a .65 for AAs. The second lowest Engie have on hammer is a 1.25 that is tied to a block that also stacks 10 Vulnerability, you have 2 Skills under 2 damage coefficients on top of all of your passive sustain and yet you are “balanced” how come you are allowed to take Tanky stats and deal good damage on top of all your damage mitigation but classes like thief can’t? Where they have to give all or nothing into damage?

But nothing I say will convince you of anything regarding the Scrapper being overturned, that’s ok I will just patiently wait till Anet swings the nerf bat their way.

FiveGauge.1357:

miriforst.1290:

For future discussion regarding damage coefficients, examine this claim:

The engineer got a super overpowered attack with (10x) 890 base damage and a 2.5 scaling!

WITHOUT RECHARGE!

And it cleaves!

And it applies 2 seconds of burning!

And it does 10% more damage against burning targets!

And it got 450 range!

Sounds insane, hope it gets nerfed asap, Kappa

That weapon doesn’t tie defensive skills to high damaging skills as well as CCs that’s the issue with hammer.

Jim Hunter.6821:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

……..what?
Invuln only stops direct damage, it does nothing against cc.
You need stability to stop the rest of that, but thanks for contributing…….

… what?! Invoulnerability stops all direct cc (ie knockbacks, pulls, fear etc). You can look it up in the wiki if you want.

Wtf are you talking about? SoS, and endure pain sure as hell don’t. If you are talking about mist form or elixer S, the trade off is they can’t do damage or contest anything when they are using it. Distortion is just a long evade so that doesn’t really count.

Those aren’t Invulnerabilities for one learn the skills, those only stop physical damage.

You’re saying mistform isn’t invuln? Pretty sure that’s right in the description.

If you want to make resistance work the same way, where it is super short, not a boon, and they can’t do any damage while using it I’d be fine with that but I’m sure you’ll kitten a lot of people off.

Was referring to the endure pain and Signet of Stone comment, but all of the other invulns, which are most form, obsidian flesh (allows you to still attack, and do everything else), distortion (which allows you to attack and do everything else as well it can be shared), elixir s, and renewed focus are all real invulns

Jim Hunter.6821:

Dawdler.8521:

Jim Hunter.6821:

……..what?
Invuln only stops direct damage, it does nothing against cc.
You need stability to stop the rest of that, but thanks for contributing…….

… what?! Invoulnerability stops all direct cc (ie knockbacks, pulls, fear etc). You can look it up in the wiki if you want.

Wtf are you talking about? SoS, and endure pain sure as hell don’t. If you are talking about mist form or elixer S, the trade off is they can’t do damage or contest anything when they are using it. Distortion is just a long evade so that doesn’t really count.

Those aren’t Invulnerabilities for one learn the skills, those only stop physical damage.

Jim Hunter.6821:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

OriOri.8724:

Resistance just needs to either stop all damage from condis, or stop all other effects (ie cripple, slow, immobilize, healing potential reduction from poison, weakness effects). Its only so strong because it allows someone to ignore not only the damage but also all of the CC effects as well.

You mean how invuln allows the stopping of all direct damage and cc effects like daze, stun, stone, knock down knock back, launch?

……..what?
Invuln only stops direct damage, it does nothing against cc.
You need stability to stop the rest of that, but thanks for contributing…….

So whenever I try to stun someone that’s a invulnerable with Basivenom, use grab well or use Dragons maw those abilities stop them? No they don’t it pops and says Invuln…. Yet soft cc still affects them if applied before the invuln.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

That’s why my suggestion for it to have an evade frame.

Would the evade frame stop warding effects?

It will work no different than dodging. If dodge cannot enter/exit a ward, Shadowstep shouldn’t either, otherwise that’s just too strong.

As it stands right now Dodges can’t whether or exit, they knock you down Shadowsteps can exit them but you still get knocked down since it is a traveling ability.

Krysard.1364:

And ppl is still complaining about dmg coefficients… Scrapper doesnt kill anything right now, it just rezzes and puts pressure on node, pressure that can still be tanked by any holder out there. Dunno guys, have you tried to kite a scrapper maybe? oh wait, he will kill you with the powerful EG#1, my bad.

Sure doesn’t kill anything, quit trying to protect the broken class that scrapper is.

OriOri.8724:

Resistance just needs to either stop all damage from condis, or stop all other effects (ie cripple, slow, immobilize, healing potential reduction from poison, weakness effects). Its only so strong because it allows someone to ignore not only the damage but also all of the CC effects as well.

You mean how invuln allows the stopping of all direct damage and cc effects like daze, stun, stone, knock down knock back, launch?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

That’s why my suggestion for it to have an evade frame.

Would the evade frame stop warding effects?

BlackBeard.2873:

Cynz.9437:

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I don’t think any other classes have a 2 to 3+ damage coefficient on most of their weapon skills.

Very perceptive, but high power coefficients are translating into what exactly? What if your power coefficient is out of this world but your pressure is unremarkable, should your power coefficients be reduced for being OP?

Scrapper pressure is unremarkable? Are we playing same game?

He is saying in comparison to the other , also OP builds (he listed symbolic DH and Druid), as if those are a good point of comparison.

Yea, the pressure is insane if you compare it to almost everything, but if you compare it to the other classes that are also dominating (and destroying viability of other builds), its par for the course.

5G lives in a world where it is ok for scrapper to be OP, b/c a few other classes are OP too. Ignore the fact that many of the OP stuff is completely stifling all creativity, and frankly, fun for most players. I mean, if you have 500 million dollars, and compare yourself to Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, you might even complain about being poor. Ignore the fact that you are objectively more well off than 99.9% of the others.

problem though, Scrapper have been this bad for a while every season so far, compared to other classes “balance” nerfs they have received the smallest of shaves, now they just need shaves in damage coefficients.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

That’s really not the problem. It should be that if the skill confirms a walk-able path to the target that it should teleport to the target area 100% of a time. The fact that it rechecks the path after the skill confirmation is the one that causes the problem.

Another issue is that it seems the walk-able path has a maximum distance, probably 1200 (unless specified). If you’re trying to teleport to a target 900 distance away, but due to a gap between you and your target, to get to that target in melee range the you would have to walk around about 1500 distance, then the Shadowstep will simply port forward and fail.

One thing I have with it is it procs anything like test of faith, or wards causing the knock down.

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

I don’t think any other classes have a 2 to 3+ damage coefficient on most of their weapon skills.

Very perceptive, but high power coefficients are translating into what exactly? What if your power coefficient is out of this world but your pressure is unremarkable, should your power coefficients be reduced for being OP?

The higher power coefficient allows them higher damage while taking more Tanky stats, which is a problem since no other class is awarded that, they don’t have to sacrifice much to be viable in damage pressure and survivability, if they had a trade off fine but as they sit now their cowed iciness should be nerfed so they would have to invest I dps stats to do damage.

One way to fix Shadowstep, make it an actual port again instead of a travel skill.

Blaqatak.1395:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Why not make SR not have a tell for enemies? All it is is a giant bullseye as is, and remove the self reveal from leaving it which is the stupidest mechanic in the whole game.

Because the counter-play options are what allow SR to grant so much stealth in the first place, while still remaining a balanced ability.

Take Blinding Powder if you want guaranteed access to stealth with no counter-play.

Yet Stealth Gyro is a thing, which doesn’t give the scrapper self revealed when forced out of the ape stealth field the stacked stealth sticks, and it’s mobile and it has more functionality than SR.

So again how would it be unbalanced?

FiveGauge.1357:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

What’s silly is the high damage coefficients which allow good damage while going for more Tanky stats, on top of the CCs and damage mitigation built initial attacks.

Welcome to HoT, check out the Symbol DragonHunter, Druid, Berserker, and Scrapper if you want to have high damage or healing on top of CC and personal survivability. Scrappers are all about reviving teamwork to make the dream work, killing power to personal survivability ratio is understandably slightly worse than other options because of this.

So while you say, “clearly Scrapper damage and healing is obviously still crazy, yeah”, if the basis of your comparison are non-HoT builds.

@general, Check out the Function Gyro revive stability combo. That should make you either moist or salty compared to mediocre Scrapper killing power

I don’t think any other classes have a 2 to 3+ damage coefficient on most of their weapon skills.

Why not make SR not have a tell for enemies? All it is is a giant bullseye as is, and remove the self reveal from leaving it which is the stupidest mechanic in the whole game.

carabidus.6214:

HoT is not only missing dungeons, but about 20 additional maps, more armor sets, etc. We did pay $50-$60, which is the price of the base game, and we all know the wealth of content that exists in vanilla GW2. I’m all for more dungeons and a AAA title’s worth of content…

Every video game expansion offers only one main zone and supplementary areas for the same price as the base game has been that way for years.

FiveGauge.1357:

Krysard.1364:

Ppl complaining about stab uptime and not double rezzs kills the whole post lmao.

Haha, I know, right?

@Supreme,

Scrapper is a reviving beast, in return, runs less sustained healing and damage when compared to other defensive bruisers like Druid/Symbol Guard. This trade is good because it offers something unique to Scrapper, but people complaining about raw Scrapper damage are a bit silly is all.

What’s silly is the high damage coefficients which allow good damage while going for more Tanky stats, on top of the CCs and damage mitigation built initial attacks.

I have been running P/P this last week and it has been fun using a very classy build with Assassins Amulet DA/Tri/ CS with Skale Venom, Haste and Assassins signet, and BV. If you get caught you will most likely die, it is used a Soley a +1 build but I did find it is very strong against DHs, now Engies and Eles avoid like the plague you will most likely end up killing yourself if you don’t have a Melee option.

Mitch.4781:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T4 fractals are the stepping stone for raids i.e. Mai Trin and Swampland for

Except that they aren’t at all.

Really lol at all the QQ threads on how difficult Swamp is at T4 it’s quiet funny, and learning mechanics is learning mechanics, you don’t need something to learn the mechanics of a fight besides doing the actual fight. All the raid bosses are easy, all that is required is learning the mechanics.

and have enough dps or you will wipe anyway, come back when you beat all raid bosses with only staff guardians using nomads. ( then will your statement all thats required is learning the mechancis be true mate )

I only see one boss ever cause a wipe from not enough dos and that’s Gorseval so gg, if you are having issues with dos on the other bosses it’s a player issue not a raid issue

Oh can you please send me a video link to the raid team all nomad wearing ( I make it easier for you and say any class can join not just guardians) that completed all the bosses please.

Edit
I just continue this since all nomad wearing team can complete any fractal knowing the mechanics, but the same aint true for raids.

Let’s see here there was a full Nomads Ele VG kill, I believe they killed other bosses as well, there were clears using 4 players on multiple bosses which means 60% less dps than a full meta 10 man raid, bosses beat in full greens which is again less dos than full ascended geared raid teams. So with the lack of dos they still beat raid bosses. Again it’s player issues not the enrage timers.

You realise you are describing such a tiny minority as to almost be insignificant. Those guys have raids on farm and literally do nothing else for hours on end. They wouldn’t even make up 1% of the player base. You’re making it sound like this is common. It simply is not.

You realize that the fact of the matter is the lack of stats/ dps shows that it’s more about mechanics than dps numbers and it boils down to player skill, the only fight that I have ever seen hit timer has been gors and that was because too many people went down slowing down the groups overall dps, I have also beat gors with 3 people dead in the last phase, again dps wasn’t the big issue but people missing mechanics like eggs or getting downed.

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Linken.6345:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

T4 fractals are the stepping stone for raids i.e. Mai Trin and Swampland for

Except that they aren’t at all.

Really lol at all the QQ threads on how difficult Swamp is at T4 it’s quiet funny, and learning mechanics is learning mechanics, you don’t need something to learn the mechanics of a fight besides doing the actual fight. All the raid bosses are easy, all that is required is learning the mechanics.

and have enough dps or you will wipe anyway, come back when you beat all raid bosses with only staff guardians using nomads. ( then will your statement all thats required is learning the mechancis be true mate )

I only see one boss ever cause a wipe from not enough dos and that’s Gorseval so gg, if you are having issues with dos on the other bosses it’s a player issue not a raid issue

Oh can you please send me a video link to the raid team all nomad wearing ( I make it easier for you and say any class can join not just guardians) that completed all the bosses please.

Edit
I just continue this since all nomad wearing team can complete any fractal knowing the mechanics, but the same aint true for raids.

Let’s see here there was a full Nomads Ele VG kill, I believe they killed other bosses as well, there were clears using 4 players on multiple bosses which means 60% less dps than a full meta 10 man raid, bosses beat in full greens which is again less dos than full ascended geared raid teams. So with the lack of dos they still beat raid bosses. Again it’s player issues not the enrage timers.

Anet says they have an algorithm to stop class stacking but it doesn’t work or they said screw and disabled it

score += roster.dishonor * config.dishonor.stack
# adjust score by profession count
for profession in list_of_all_professions:
count = roster.countProfessions(profession)
if count == 0:
continue
count += team.countProfessions(professions)
if count >= config.professions.max:
count -= config.professions.max – 1;
score += count * config.professions.common
else:
count = config.professions.max – count
score += count * config.professions.unique
return score