Guild Wars 2

Silverbolt.2301:

How is it an OP build if he couldn’t kill you and simply annoyed you?

It’s “Op” because of stealth……… That’s most players mentality yet they run around with Passives carrying them from playing badly.

Ithilwen, you don’t balance around the lowest common denominator you balance for the above average, since they will fully utilize the class and show what is wrong with different builds.

no, that is one of the things that is ruining this game, saying well they have it so should I.

Using your mentality if any class should have it or no weapon swap what so ever should be Thief since they have no weapon CDs.

But let’s look at all classes if they all run out of CDs then swap and run out of CDs they have to swap. Every class have to swap weapons frequently not just Revenants.. Let classes keep their unique mechanics.

It’s one of the Warriors class mechanics something unique to them.

It’s additive it goes to 25% look at your character screen when you swap the trait with a sword in hand

Would cut into their Gem sales since the gemstore sells the self style hair kit, and total make over, also in game is the 3k gold permanent Hairstyle contract…….. What more do you need??? You can purchase all 3 of those with gold or real money…

It seems like you are the only one to have an issue with this, plus if they change this they would have to change all on swap sigils, Runes of the Warrior and a few different class traits.

The weapon swap cd is there because your decisions matter, the only reason you swap is either due to changing fight needs or you blew all of your CDs on a weapons, and if you fat finger the swap that isn’t the games fault, it would make the gameplay very clunky compared to how the game was initially designed,

yes the Thief is the main class affected by it but that doesn’t mean the whole mechanic needs to be changed because you find an issue with it, it would tie up resources that could be used elsewhere.

babazhook.6805:

You do not need Runes of Trapper for this build. You can get more spike damage from alternate runes and rely primarily on d/p for stealth. Since you are not using d/p in any way to attack all ini can go to stealth.

If you want to load spike Conditions do this.

Use an Asura.

Trait with Perplexity runes. Load up HIS as heal along with pain inverter caltrops and needle trap. Trait SA taking hidden thief and DA for the trappers respite along with trickery for uncatchable and BA.

Drop a needle trap and maintain stealth with d/p . It preferable to use the TRAP from your heal here and this can be dropped ahead of time. When a person steps in it load the needle trap and steal to the enemy right away. Use your Pain inverter and your heal in quick sequence and drop caltrops.

Initial needle trap gets poison + 3 bleed. Followup steal applies a second needle trap for poison + 3 bleed along with 5 confusion off BA and 2 poison off the steal. Pain inverter adds 3 confusion. The heal adds 3 confusion and another needle trap. (If that heal off its cooldown) . Then there those caltrops.

Now this is if you want to do it all in one big burst. You can stagger these bursts so as to force a cleanse early and than apply another. If you use a rune other than trappper you can have a build with two high bursts that can be used in sequence.

This obviously a theoretical best case scenario. In most cases the target will react in some way which will change how you respond in kind.

Have you seen the video of the Mesmer that kept AA’ing a Yak while loaded up with confusion? Or all the threads about this the players don’t react …..

It’s a crap build that is horrible for killing people, but based on all the threads and videos I have seen on this there is no helping the players that die to it. Now this does not include people that get tanked by 3-5 of these Thieves there is no helping that.

Yes this build shouldn’t exist but it does and has for years. Woo

swinsk.6410:

They need to bring trapper runes to spvp…

I been running this build and it’s kind of funny. PU Mesmer is still better tho.

Got to love when people don’t know the game, Trapper runes have always been in PvP since the 2014 feature pack……

Raiders wouldn’t care, since they are normally in guilds, but a lot of “casuals” /PuGS would hate that option, inb4 the hate comments since a lot of players try to lie to get into raids by linking fake Li pings.

I actually need a re-invite vote to Teef i guess I left when I left Omfg

rotsono.9176:

Kuya.6495:

Zintrothen.1056:

Kuya.6495:

Don’t you think it’s a tad bit ironic to see threads littering the forums complaining about pre mades and threads complaining about queue times?

There’s a simple solution that takes some time and patience on everyone’s part. It’s call making the game good. Give back SoloQ, and then more people will queue solo, thus lowering queue times. With fewer solo queuers getting in the way of premades, those queuing as a team will have more competitive games. If they didn’t want competitive games, then they should be in hotjoin or even unranked. There’s a place for every kind of player in this game, but right now, the PvP places are mixed together and it’s kittening things up.

That would substantially drive up the queue times for premades.

Then split up.

Don’t play a organized Team gamemode without a team and complain about being paired against Organized premades, hey look the same argument….

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Stealth as a defensive tool to drop target/reposition applies to all classes, thats not a thief mechanic. Only additional benefits that thieves can gain from stealth are some kind of class mechanic. And just because SA is bad currently, doesn’t mean, revealed is the main issue. There are many reasons.

Yes before Stealth gave better return on investment mainly the main mechanic only given to thieves called stealth attacks, now there is no reason to use Stealth attacks since they will most likely miss and it’s only feasible to use the 9 initiative to reposition and and drop target almost no other reason with the nerfs Thief Stealth has received since the games launch, and now other classes have just as easy access if not better in most cases.

And again back on topic Anet removed the damage from Thief traps since it worked against one of the classes main mechanics. It is even stated by the Devs in the patch note so traps do not reveal Thieves. Should perma stealth exist no I wholeheartedly agree but every class has a build that shouldn’t exist but they do this is just Thieves version and it is weaker than all the other cancerous builds and isn’t seen all that much.

Zintrothen.1056:

This is such a typical thief thread. OP posts that thieves are OP. Thieves come in and defend, claiming that they are OP in absolutely no way.

News flash! Everyone is OP! Including thieves. Just because you’re “weaker” than everyone else does not mean that you are not OP and that you’re build doesn’t have faceroll skills. Condi thief is absolutely the most unskilled build in the game. However, D/P is still more versatile for conquest and is therefore a better build overall. It also happens to take more skill to play. In fact, I think it’s one of the most skill based builds in the game. The contrast between power and condi thief is mind blowing. One is the hardest and one is the easiest.

So dear thieves, quit acting like you’re weak. Just like you’re telling everyone else to L2P, tell yourself that. Of course you’re going to have a hard time against good players. Good players tend to do that.

So pretty much like every single class that defends their class from stupid nerf threads?

Look at all threads about nerfing classes, look how vehemently that guards defend their low skill floor build, Condi Wars, and Mesmers all defend tooth and nail from stupid nerf threads and their answer is always L2P. Nice try though

UmbraNoctis.1907:

S/D has stealth access, yes, but it didn’t need that stealth to function, it was just something “nice to have”. Similar is true for current D/P meta build. It needs stealth for backstab, but that’s all. And backstab is by far not as important as in the past for D/P. Shadowshot, Headshot (Pulmonary Impact) and autoattacks are often better options.

And again – even builds that rely more on stealth like SA builds shouldn’t need to sit in stealth permanently. Revealed is basically nothing but a short cooldown. If you are revealed and can’t clear condis because of it, it is like having condi remove skills on cd. Same for burst, cc and so on. It is not only revealed, that destroyed many thief builds (like your d/d build). It is not even the main issue.

False D/P needs stealth to mitigate Single target damage by making the opponent drop target and reposition, D/P mostly doesn’t use Stealth for Backstab since the nerf to it and it not always landing, they use it as a defensive ability. And SA needs to sit int stealth at minimum 3 secs to clear a single Condi or to get a single heal/initiative tick, so to combat the Condi spam and to even benefit the thief they have to sit in there for anot 6 seconds.

Right now the builds that don’t need access to stealth are D/D Condi, P/P and Vault spam. D/P still relies on stealth a lot only bad thieves won’t try to utilize it, D/P uses the AA more than any other skill unless they know Shadowshot spam will win them the fight.

Fivedawgs.4267:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

It’s applies 3 damaging conditions that are easily, cleansed there are build in breaks in between evades used from DB can be easily interrupted especially with all the Cc in game, easiest way to kill it is Immob or stun which are abundant in this meta.

Fivedawgs I know you main War which is grossly more OP than this thief build so don’t try to claim Condi op on an easily intteruptible build especially with the amount of Cc and Condi applications warriors have on top of sustain.

I main Power Warrior which is not OP, and my power build is not even meta. Most peopel rather run GS/ axe + shield then GS/ Mace + shield which i run, because it;s easily countered by stab. I said it again and again, the condi warrior build needs to be adjusted.

But you guys are acting as if the OP was an imbecile.

Should we balance around complete noobs? Anet already did with HoT and see what happened – most of classes are pretty much on auto-pilot now and pvp became skillless and boring.

Using this logic, we shouldn’t adjust DH at all. Since, Frosty bobbles or other high tier revs have managed to beat Mo/obs?? right? They can kill the build without killing the class, it has been done for Killshot warrior (the piercing was tone down, etc..)

The fact that 3 died to him shows how low skilled the op and the others in that fight are. If there is more than 1 competent person then the thief would have died. So yes do I think the OP and the 2 teammates of his are low skilled by that fact, especially since I do know how easily countered evade spam thieves are

alchemyst.2165:

This guy said he ends in sapphire/beginning of ruby but expects himself to be credible…

Sorry, but if you’re getting beat by a thief in PvP when there’s two of you, the two of you are just playing very poorly.

It’s even better there were 3 of them, as the Op said

“Myself and two others on my team were just beat by a single thief”

It’s applies 3 damaging conditions that are easily, cleansed there are build in breaks in between evades used from DB can be easily interrupted especially with all the Cc in game, easiest way to kill it is Immob or stun which are abundant in this meta.

Fivedawgs I know you main War which is grossly more OP than this thief build so don’t try to claim Condi op on an easily intteruptible build especially with the amount of Cc and Condi applications warriors have on top of sustain.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Stealth is not thieves main mechanic (not all thief builds rely on stealth) and every thief should be able to handle a few seconds of revealed every now and then. And even though i wouldn’t call the “ghost thief” op, i think, being able to deal dmg while staying permanently stealth is terrible design and should be changed. And since it is an (trap) thief only issue, changes should affect only this build. Adding direct dmg to those traps and buffing them in some way (more dmg and/or utility), so a trap thief doesn’t rely on perma stealth, would be my solution.

Really? Then why is the best thief weapon set also the one that utilizes the most stealth access, why do 3 out of 5 trait lines have stealth based traits, why is a whole Traitline dedicated to nothing but Stealth? Why are most of their sustain tied to stealth? now there is an Daredevil which is evade based but still D/P is used for all of the utility it provides on top of stealth since most builds besides gimmick builds like P/P unload spam, D/D DB spam and Staff Vault spam build rely on Stealth to be relevant.

So saying stealth is not one of Thieves main mechanics is very disingenuous, right now with Daredevil being one of the best options it removes SA from being chosen since Evades are better survivability than stealth.

And only bad players die to trapper thieves since they y have small Condi application that is nullified by a cleanse and walking away. Should it not exist yes but there are more cancerous builds from other professions out there, that actually kill a lot easier.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Jana.6831:

Jim Hunter.6821:

They already needlessly nerfed the runes once without fixing the problem. What they need to do is add direct damage to needle trap and possibly to trip wire so that the thief is revealed when using them.

No, they simply need to remove the rune as there’s no reason to destroy thief because of a stupid rune.

How would that destroy thief? What thief even uses traps unless they are going for a perma stealth build? All this would do is make (1 or possibly 2) thief traps function like every other trap. Hell they could even improve tripwire by giving it a nice damage spike.

Also, multiple professions use traps. If you are so worried about “destroying” professions you shouldn’t be recommending something that is going to needlessly harm multiple professions in order to fix a problem with 1 build.

One thing all traps function completely differently, let’s take a look, Thief traps are Lines not circle have no direct damage on them ( Anet removed it because no thief would take them since it completely nullified Thieves main mechanic), only two cause damaging conditions all others are pure utility, 1 spawns Ai mobs, traps don’t persist and hit at most 1 target

DH traps large Aoe circles mostly add cc most have direct damage and persist.

Ranger are Condi based while having direct damage these ones apply more condies than any traps thieves have, smaller Aoe circle no utility traps, traps persist..

They should just remove the Runes from game be the easiest fix, or you just learn to walk away from the thief while having a Condi cleanse since they don’t apply much conditions….

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Josh Davis.6015:

Daishi.6027:

Why not just letting quickness speed up stomp again? But continue to not allow quickness to revive faster.

This makes downing a target more meaningful, and opens up viability and utility of builds that can reliably gain quickness, without it being to broken in the revival department?

If we add quickness back in for stomps we’d likely allow slow to reduce stomp speed for consistency’s sake…and slowed stomping doesn’t feel great.

The question is why are you slowed? Is it because a Chrono dropped his Time Warp Elite, slow well, or interrupted you? Then that’s fair, and does feel great.

Is it because the downed rev is spamming his downed state AA? That’s not fair, and doesn’t feel great.

So Quickness for stomp is a good idea, slowness on stomps is fine for the sake of consistency, but remove slow on rev downed AA and everything will be fine.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let me guess you didn’t play season 1? Where this was the biggest problem, where Chronomancers dominated quickness and slow on Aoe

Season 1 had far more going on in it than just quickness/slow. All specs/comps were bunker, so cleave couldn’t hurt anybody while they freely ressed. Interrupting wasnt possible because of all the stability+invuln. There was a broader recipe that made that season a disaster.

Oh I know but the Rez / Quickness was a big problem as well, the two just exasperated each other.

Quickness has effected stomp/rez speed since release. Quickness’ effect was nerfed from 100% to 50% speed. Since that time there was never a complaint about quickness effecting stomp/rez speed UNTIL Season 1 HoT meta unbalanced the game.

If you reintroduced quickness effecting stomp/rez under the current meta there wouldn’t be the same problem. And in fact it’d bring value to various elites/utilities/weapons. However the one caveat is that the access/investment/reward of quickness and slow needs to be taken into consideration. Slow on AA for Rev is an example of bad. Quickness/slow on Time Warp is an example of good. 100% boon duration on warrior running his various quickness traits + berserk = unbalanced where stomping is involved. So there are lines that need to be drawn. Still, applying a timely amount of quickness for a stomp is a good, useful use of the boon.

Yes but if you bring back quickness stomps you need to bring back slow stomps, and right now Chronomancer for the most part has a monopoly on Slow especially as an Aoe compared to other classes outside of Necromancers corrupting Quickness, which is still an imbalance.

Right now it’s should be left out until they can fix other issues of Class balance in PvP.

Heaven forbid this game should have features more prevalent to unique classes than others. As opposed to current developments that’ll see every class with every feature loaded into their AA chain by 2018 XD

Yeah i remember when classes had unique features look what happened they got nerfed and created power creep, I would love for them to go back to having unique features but it has been shown time and again to be a disaster.

So yes I would like them to fix other issues with the game and actually have a design philosophy setup before making changes like quickness and slow Rez/Stomps.

Rizigmar.2681:

Cynz.9437:

Mcintosh.8427:

I’m not a bad player. I would say I’m average; each season so far I’ve generally stopped around end of Sapphire/start of Ruby depending on how much time I want to dedicate. Myself and two others on my team were just beat by a single thief by him dodging repeatedly. He would occasionally use his staff leap skill but, he was literally dodge jumping almost the whole time. We barely hit him and he would just heal anyway. I realize I have every opportunity to play my thief the same way but, it doesn’t make it right. The amount of evade they have now is just irresponsibly unbalanced. Please reduce it.

You and your teammate were beaten by about worst class you could pick to engage any fights in pvp atm. What part of it is average/not bad?

Kirochique.9186:

I’ve played a thief with this build style. I completely agree it’s fairly unfair.
When I go up to a 1v1 I have 99% confidence that I will win. And about 50% with 1v2’s.

First of all, condition damage does not work on this build, every time a thief evades an attack they shed a condition, and they are forever evading because they have full endurance regain if you die, or if you stun them, plus on every steal, one of the utility skills and on their heal.
They also have skill 3 on D/D with a full initiative regain utility skill.
Hit a shot or two off on them? Too bad they get 200 health every time they use 1 initiative. They use 4 initiative on skill 3 (800 health on activation).
Think that you can stun them to death? They have 4 stun breaks good luck.
Well it’s a good thing that you can’t pair that much survivability with damage right? Wrong.
When specked with condition damage, you will have at least 10 bleed stacks on you at all times, the only way to survive that much condition damage is if you have lots of condi clear(lots)
If you have none, good luck with those 50 stacks of bleeding bud.

Too bad thief is in a bad place right now so this will never get nerf’d

Please post that magic build so we can all ride the OP train. Too bad that every d/d condi thief so far i saw in this season was absolutely useless since they couldn’t really kill anyone and got murdered by 1 stun. Then again i haven’t seen amber/emerald in 2 seasons now, condi thieves are kind of extinct in legend for some reason :P

Rizigmar.2681:

Well there is that one condi build that sits in evade frames for 7 years. The amount of times thief can evade is ridiculous, paired with stealth is just too much, outside of a DH, Scrapper and good Druids, you can kill pretty much anyone. I’d suggest changing Signet of agility to grant vigor instead of 100 Endurance refill. And stealing should give 25 endurance only. That’ll make them tolerable.

Hit them between dodges, they do not have 7 years evade frame actually. Also those thieves don’t kill anyone with half brain. That build also doesn’t really have that much access to stealth~

P.S. i do not play d/d condi and if i see one it means my team has really good chance to win~

That condi thief build sits in evades for almost 100% of the fight. Death blossom spam. and dodge. What you’re saying is to hit them after a dodge, despite the fact my own skills have cast times too which just leads it to being evaded again, especially when it’s on a small point. Outside of condi thief, it’s still dumb that a class can evade several different times, and drop targeting with stealths, and teleports. That’s why i think Signet of Agility needs a change, and stealing for endurance should be halved.

Sorry but the you clearly don’t know how the mechanics of Thief evades work both DB and Vault have half of the animation not provide evades you can hit them in that time. If you get them with an Immob or stun it is even easier to do. It only beats Bads that can’t time attacks to hit during the non evade frames of those attack animations. And the D/D Condi thief has one main access to stealth but won’t use it since it takes 1/3 of their initiative.

Kirochique.9186:

I’ve played a thief with this build style. I completely agree it’s fairly unfair.
When I go up to a 1v1 I have 99% confidence that I will win. And about 50% with 1v2’s.

First of all, condition damage does not work on this build, every time a thief evades an attack they shed a condition, and they are forever evading because they have full endurance regain if you die, or if you stun them, plus on every steal, one of the utility skills and on their heal.
They also have skill 3 on D/D with a full initiative regain utility skill.
Hit a shot or two off on them? Too bad they get 200 health every time they use 1 initiative. They use 4 initiative on skill 3 (800 health on activation).
Think that you can stun them to death? They have 4 stun breaks good luck.
Well it’s a good thing that you can’t pair that much survivability with damage right? Wrong.
When specked with condition damage, you will have at least 10 bleed stacks on you at all times, the only way to survive that much condition damage is if you have lots of condi clear(lots)
If you have none, good luck with those 50 stacks of bleeding bud.

Too bad thief is in a bad place right now so this will never get nerf’d

Dang you Must be playing one of those 30/30/30/30/30 thief builds

Alexander.6250:

DeceiverX.8361:

You’re doing the equivalent of trying to make a berserker thief a healer and are saying it’s relatively weak when compared to a druid.

Condi thief isn’t going to get you optimal damage in PvE. If you’re playing for optimal damage in that environment, you need to optimize for it on the build-profession level rather than just how you want to deal your damage. There’s zero diversity in an optimal scheme, because it’s optimum, which is defined as “greatest degree attained or attainable under implied or specified conditions” and thus entails only one (via -est suffix) solution.

On the first thing: I’m just trying to make a condi thief do condi, so that’s totally not the same.

The whole point of this post is that the only way to play thief in PvE is to go non-condi. Other professions can choose between normal dmg, condi dmg or hybrid, and one of these is going to be better in certain situations. When it comes to thief there is just such a huge gap in damage basically reducing you to 1 choice.
I wouldn’t mind running a sub-optimal build, but there are limits.

I know in PvP/WvW it’s a totally different story. But I’m a PvE player, and I don’t like PvP balance issues holding builds back in unrelated content.

And about the numbers: Those are absolutely not ‘optimal dps’ numbers or anything, I just equipped similar gear on different professions and checked what they could do with it, to get a good comparison. (it’s also the sustained average dps from a 2min fight, so not burst dps)

Before they made Venomshare baseline Thieves would raid Using Vipers, the thing is you have to know the rotation for it and it was desirable in some team comps, go look up the old Viper Thief raid build it may not bring as much dps as a regular power thief but it was over 20k dps.

Ross Biddle.2367:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Josh Davis.6015:

Daishi.6027:

Why not just letting quickness speed up stomp again? But continue to not allow quickness to revive faster.

This makes downing a target more meaningful, and opens up viability and utility of builds that can reliably gain quickness, without it being to broken in the revival department?

If we add quickness back in for stomps we’d likely allow slow to reduce stomp speed for consistency’s sake…and slowed stomping doesn’t feel great.

The question is why are you slowed? Is it because a Chrono dropped his Time Warp Elite, slow well, or interrupted you? Then that’s fair, and does feel great.

Is it because the downed rev is spamming his downed state AA? That’s not fair, and doesn’t feel great.

So Quickness for stomp is a good idea, slowness on stomps is fine for the sake of consistency, but remove slow on rev downed AA and everything will be fine.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let me guess you didn’t play season 1? Where this was the biggest problem, where Chronomancers dominated quickness and slow on Aoe

Season 1 had far more going on in it than just quickness/slow. All specs/comps were bunker, so cleave couldn’t hurt anybody while they freely ressed. Interrupting wasnt possible because of all the stability+invuln. There was a broader recipe that made that season a disaster.

Oh I know but the Rez / Quickness was a big problem as well, the two just exasperated each other.

Quickness has effected stomp/rez speed since release. Quickness’ effect was nerfed from 100% to 50% speed. Since that time there was never a complaint about quickness effecting stomp/rez speed UNTIL Season 1 HoT meta unbalanced the game.

If you reintroduced quickness effecting stomp/rez under the current meta there wouldn’t be the same problem. And in fact it’d bring value to various elites/utilities/weapons. However the one caveat is that the access/investment/reward of quickness and slow needs to be taken into consideration. Slow on AA for Rev is an example of bad. Quickness/slow on Time Warp is an example of good. 100% boon duration on warrior running his various quickness traits + berserk = unbalanced where stomping is involved. So there are lines that need to be drawn. Still, applying a timely amount of quickness for a stomp is a good, useful use of the boon.

Yes but if you bring back quickness stomps you need to bring back slow stomps, and right now Chronomancer for the most part has a monopoly on Slow especially as an Aoe compared to other classes outside of Necromancers corrupting Quickness, which is still an imbalance.

Right now it’s should be left out until they can fix other issues of Class balance in PvP.

RaGe.9834:

Lumpy.8760:

i need all of part III and part IV’s daily league participator, but there’s only 26 days of the season left; am i SOL for the year? is my progress going to reset? is all my effort and anything i do now a waste

You can still earn ur wings in s5 which I suspect will start around Octobrr or November ur good bro no worries

They have not officially said that is tied to the achievements, the closest thing they have said was, there will be an alternate way to get them after the Year of Ascension is over

BrotherBelial.3094:

Azukas.1426:

I think it is a royal waste of time in a match b/c having someone on it is actually detrimental to trying to win the game.

Good Rotations trump Treb play 100% of the time, and if I’m in a ranked match and see one of my teammates go treb…..I’m not nice to them about that decision

^This, I really think it needs buffing. You can spam it on middle no problem, but it is harder to judge when your looking at home or far. There are players who seem tom think that Treb is needed to win a match no matter what, and most can’t use it very well, as the only other time you will use a treb is a few events/story missions/WvW. I do think if it’s going to be in the map, it needs to me more user friendly. Not everyone have the exp on it that other do.

Just ignore the fact HoTM has a Treb training area with different targets at Various distances and angles…. People could choose to get good at it but don’t

Working as intended

Donari.5237:

It seems like every time I mine my home instance bloodstone node I get three rubies. Could be RNG, but I’ve noticed it the last few times (I don’t remember to mine in the instance every day). So add that to the sources.

You are guaranteed those from that node

They removed the unevadable part then added it back

Ross Biddle.2367:

Josh Davis.6015:

Daishi.6027:

Why not just letting quickness speed up stomp again? But continue to not allow quickness to revive faster.

This makes downing a target more meaningful, and opens up viability and utility of builds that can reliably gain quickness, without it being to broken in the revival department?

If we add quickness back in for stomps we’d likely allow slow to reduce stomp speed for consistency’s sake…and slowed stomping doesn’t feel great.

The question is why are you slowed? Is it because a Chrono dropped his Time Warp Elite, slow well, or interrupted you? Then that’s fair, and does feel great.

Is it because the downed rev is spamming his downed state AA? That’s not fair, and doesn’t feel great.

So Quickness for stomp is a good idea, slowness on stomps is fine for the sake of consistency, but remove slow on rev downed AA and everything will be fine.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Let me guess you didn’t play season 1? Where this was the biggest problem, where Chronomancers dominated quickness and slow on Aoe

Season 1 had far more going on in it than just quickness/slow. All specs/comps were bunker, so cleave couldn’t hurt anybody while they freely ressed. Interrupting wasnt possible because of all the stability+invuln. There was a broader recipe that made that season a disaster.

Oh I know but the Rez / Quickness was a big problem as well, the two just exasperated each other.

Daishi.6027:

Josh Davis.6015:

Daishi.6027:

Why not just letting quickness speed up stomp again? But continue to not allow quickness to revive faster.

This makes downing a target more meaningful, and opens up viability and utility of builds that can reliably gain quickness, without it being to broken in the revival department?

If we add quickness back in for stomps we’d likely allow slow to reduce stomp speed for consistency’s sake…and slowed stomping doesn’t feel great.

It sounds like a decent albeit annoying counter if quickness stomps got out of hand, but I’m guessing it’s already been tested and seemed sour despite the limited access to slow, if you’re mentioning it in such a way.

But for the sake of balance, and the health of the game (presuming it is balanced), could exceptions not be made so mechanics function one way compared to others? Even if it hurts the consistency? I’m not a dev but it seems like a small price to pay. Especially when the other solutions are sometimes to find un-related or less direct solutions for the sake of consistency.

Let me guess you didn’t play season 1? Where this was the biggest problem, where Chronomancers dominated quickness and slow on Aoe

AllNightPlayer.1286:

Sorry to interrupt, but since you’re adjusting the reviving of downstate players, could you please fix the underwater version (aka Drowning)? In its current state, it not possible for even two other players to rezz a downstate player in underwater combat. The life withdrawal of the underwater downstate is so strong, it literally takes an hour to rezz the drowing player unless he swims to the surface or activates Bandage.

This is in PvP only, where there is no underwater, your request would better serve in WvW forums or Pve I believe

DeceiverX.8361:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

2 words….permanent stealth

A lot of players don’t like that cheese build, and it doesn’t kill anyone that has half a brain. It’s fun to dink around with especially with a few friends but isn’t a good build and is easily counter able.

Oh shush, you know how much of an advantage SA gave you when we dueled :P

It’s a strong dueling trait line if played with camping stealth, which is thus dependent on abusing OH pistol, particularly through D/P. Otherwise, it has next to no overall purpose.

Daredevil took away its redeeming facets and Acro is now a tough competitor as a generic defensive line and has much more to synergy with Daredevil since it potentially enables double-dipping and stacking evasion into ridiculousness.

Without Daredevil, it’d still be a very usable trait line and one taken in most builds. Nothing’s really nerfed SA – if anything, the ICD buffed it relative to other lines since that extra 1s is huge – it’s just that the daredevil is so massively powercreeped and builds so easily into spamming evasion that the gains from SA are negligible.

Yes it gave me an Advantage because I used it for tactical reasons, he was referring to the Gjost Thief build he plays in WvW, he literally made a post about it yesterday bahahah that’s the cheese I was talking about. I still use SA if I find my Yolo style is ad a loss, in WvW and PvP I have been running Da/CS/Tri with Zerker stats in PvP and Assassins in WvW, and I still abuse stealth as in our duels hahaha.

Yes the extra second is amazing now since the ICD on stealth attacks, plus it has great defensive purposes still and allows for more tactical gameplay at the loss of some burst and survivability, it just vies for the same slot as DD, if we didn’t have to rely on Trick Da/SA/DD would be a great build, or CS/SA/DD would be good as well it’s just we can’t give up Trickery so it limits what builds are effective in today’s power creep.

He got those numbers from Hotm golems not from the Special Forces Training Dummy

Daniel Handler.4816:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Wolfric.9380:

i find the idea of swaping P 5 with SB 5 very tempting. Would be a huge change in thief builds changing the “flow”. Don´t think such changes are considdered.
I feel that the mobility fits P 2 even better so rotate skills. SB5 —> P2 --> P5 —> SB5
Would be huge and many would complain D(S)/P is killed with that but i would like it :-)
It would actually make P/x the top kiting weapon .

However thats also a nerf to all x/p which combo off the field with 4 or, 1-5 in the case of p/p

It’s a nerf to s/p and p/p which used DD’s bounding dodger to gain access to stealth. The whole reason BD is a leap finisher was intended to buff those sets, not to buff SB.

Great point! I didn’t see this because I was defending P/P but the OP is trying to remove stealth from D/P…sneaky nerfing thief.

That’s was less of sin in my eyes. The greatest injury is preventing the best set (s/p) from having access to stealth using bounding dodger.

Also side note how terribly complicated it would be to have infiltrator’s strike/return/arrow/signet with just one weapon set.

The least he could do is also suggest a name change to infiltrator’s arrow. We can’t be infiltrating all the time.

Woah now!! We all know that S/D is the best weapon set it takes True skill to master and be relevant with!!!

Azoqu.8917:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking as I clearly stated in that sentence

“they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.”

Which isn’t a problem to acquire a target most times since a lot of players like to sit range and attack like DHs with LB, Rangers, Reapers or on people you can target running between points again you don’t have to have them wishing the 1200 range you just need to hav them targeted…..

Reading comprehension a wonderful thing and yes you can use RF and WoR as disengages you just choose not to and die on point….

Reading comprehension was not lacking there. What was lacking is a statement that makes sense since being able to JI or sword 2 requires a target that you will never get in time and even if you do manage to teleport away every other class in the game will be able to catch up with you and kill you anyhow. So there is no point to even try running away and you might as well just fight to the end.

And getting to the true topic at hand: the problem with DH isn’t with the DH itself, the problem is the fact that all the terrible players in this game (lots in this thread by the way) all got used to an elementalist healing their sorry kitten through the damage that was being put out. So once all the whiners got their wish of a nerfed elementalist, combined with a nerf to general sustain as well, a class that is built with the premise of being the sustain king (Guardian is the tank/healer baseline and it is not even the king in that domain, doesn’t change the fact that that is the baseline) makes everyone go insane because its main counter is now gone.

Yes the damage for a DH might be to high for the sustain they can bring, but if you want to nerf them than you need to do the following:
- Nerf all other damage from sustain builds in pvp, there is more than just the DH.
- Find a way to nerf it without destroying it in PvE. My elementalist really hates the PvP community right now for making it feel super clunky and unfun to even try playing. Nothing flows on that class anymore.
- Make sure the class remains viable and since it is barely viable at high end PvP I doubt you could do that.

Not to mention that the majority of DH complaints are because they are merging all of the different specs together. That is another strength of the DH, you don’t know which version you are fighting the first time around each match until it is possibly to late.

1 you can easily grab a target that will pull you from whatever pressure you are under, I play DH I use this to make sure I don’t die needlessly, it’s not the optimal use but it is a use for it, and is effective at disengaging, just because you don’t use t as such doesn’t mean it can’t be used that way.

They have started separating Pve and PvP balance and I agree they need to nerf the damage on classes/builds that have too much sustain and damage, they have proven they can do this look at last balance patch they already started in a small batch of skills.

Astralporing.1957:

OnizukaBR.8537:

You guys pro-easy mode keep bringing the same arguments, thats is proven fail by yourselves, when people say that VG in BSF is that, you say that it dont have the same mechanic ? So lets compare its mechanic lets see.
Blue circles ? Match. Green Circle ? Match.

So, if it’s the same color, it means the mechanic is the same? Oh, the irony…

OnizukaBR.8537:

CC VG when he does its aoe attack? Match.

Actually, he is being cc-ed throughout the whole encounter about equally, you just can’t see it when his breakbar is not up. And not-ccing has no real effects, i have seen that aoe attack of him time out with the bar merely halfway several times already.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Seekers ? Match.

That’s likely the only real match in the whole encounter. Nobody notices them anyway in the big sfx cloud around the boss.

OnizukaBR.8537:

The difference between the two are the one in BSF does little to no damage and you can ignore most mechanics ( but you still see a lot of people going down ). So this is the easy mode, and you say you dont want it?

Haven’t seen it giving out raid rewards, legendary armor progress or even unlocking raid mastery, so yeah… no dice.

OnizukaBR.8537:

In the end of day its crystal clear that you want the current rewards of the raid, not an easy mode.

Yes, i want the easy mode mostly because it would be the simplest way to opening those rewards (specifically: legendary armor) to the community. As well as introducing a set of new instances that could take place of the already old and well-known dungeons/fractals and become something i could play with my friends in. Never said otherwise.

Give me another path to a legendary armor and a set of new dungeons (at the past dungeon/fractal difficulty level, not at the difficulty of raids, or annoyance of t4 swamp), and i will shut up about easy mode. But until that happens, i’ll be asking for an option i feel is more likely to be done (because it would require less effort on Anet’s part).

Again you are making unfounded claims that it would be less effort to change mechanics/difficulty when it comes to raids. It’s not a simple copy paste like you make it out to be. Kinda reminds me of another poster that Anet told not to make such claims…

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

2 words….permanent stealth

A lot of players don’t like that cheese build, and it doesn’t kill anyone that has half a brain. It’s fun to dink around with especially with a few friends but isn’t a good build and is easily counter able.

SA is still useable in a lot of builds I was using it a lot recently then I wanted more of a challenge, now with the Nerf to Stealth attacks SA helps land Backstabs more effectively and allows for more pressure on players especially against Condi Users. It is still most effective with D/P like every other build.

They do need to change the trait lines, and finally clarify what they want the Thief to be, as it sits with Stealth being its arguably biggest class mechanic but has the biggest nerfs through out the games histories and other classes getting better access to stealth/better stealth skills with little to no investment.

Ragnarox.9601:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

And DHs can disengage they can use Wings of Resolve, Renewed Focus invuln 3 secs refresh all virtues, they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.

WoR is 600 range, interrupted 99% times, RF for disengage? haha
JI ? you need target for that one, Sword 2 – you need target for that one. Disengage means go away from fight not teleport into another one.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking as I clearly stated in that sentence

“they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.”

Which isn’t a problem to acquire a target most times since a lot of players like to sit range and attack like DHs with LB, Rangers, Reapers or on people you can target running between points again you don’t have to have them wishing the 1200 range you just need to hav them targeted…..

Reading comprehension a wonderful thing and yes you can use RF and WoR as disengages you just choose not to and die on point….

Lucred.1802:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Lucred.1802:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Lucred.1802:

Chaith.8256:

Lucred.1802:

Kuya.6495:

Haste stomp?

Anything that modifies attack speed also modifies all channels (including stomps).

Can’t decide if Lucred is saying facts wrong to trigger people, or he actually believes it

Considering I witness it firsthand every day (both on the giving and receiving end), I believe it. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but it seems like this is how it actually works.

Unless there’s another explanation for sub-1-second stomps from characters with no specialty stomp mechanic (like guardians and warriors) when and only when they’re on the same team and in close proximity to a chronomancer. I’m willing to learn here.

edit
According to the wiki, any and all Quickness shortens the channel on all actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness

January 26th 2016

Reviving: Reviving characters will no longer be affected by time-scaled effects like quickness and slow.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-26-2016/first#post5957898

So no, haste stomps aren’t a thing anymore, and when the Druid enters stealth it’s only for 3 seconds which still leaves a time where they are visible for the stomp same with Mesmer and Thief unless they waste everything they have to stack stealth or if the Thief drops SR on you.

The only skills that can stomp are Function Gyro which is 5 secs iirc or Thief Elite which can be timed exactly when you go to the downed state to finish almost instantly if they use those attacks before you enter the downed state.

I’m complaining about quickness speeding up the cast of stomp, not the cast of rez.

It’s not listed in the wiki that there are any exclusions for it and I don’t believe that’s a change that stayed in the game as I can see it in action daily.

Apparently my phone didn’t copy properly go to the link I posted look right above class balance, it says Finish them is not affected by quickness or slow. That’s why I provided the link.

Also the Wiki is user maintained not developer maintained, lots of outdated sections.

And, again, the wiki says there are no exclusions and I can see there are no exclusions in-game as far as anything I can actually test on (such as the training mobs). I don’t believe that’s a change that stayed in the game, either intentionally or unintentionally I think it got reverted at some point because this is something I can and have tested and quickness does speed up the cast of stomp.

I tested it last night using Haste on my Thief Quickness dos not lower the 3.5 stomp time.

Again the Wiki is User maintained not maintained by Anet, so some data gets missed or is out of date, never take the wiki at face value look at patch notes instead.

Lucred.1802:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Lucred.1802:

Chaith.8256:

Lucred.1802:

Kuya.6495:

Haste stomp?

Anything that modifies attack speed also modifies all channels (including stomps).

Can’t decide if Lucred is saying facts wrong to trigger people, or he actually believes it

Considering I witness it firsthand every day (both on the giving and receiving end), I believe it. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but it seems like this is how it actually works.

Unless there’s another explanation for sub-1-second stomps from characters with no specialty stomp mechanic (like guardians and warriors) when and only when they’re on the same team and in close proximity to a chronomancer. I’m willing to learn here.

edit
According to the wiki, any and all Quickness shortens the channel on all actions.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness

January 26th 2016

Reviving: Reviving characters will no longer be affected by time-scaled effects like quickness and slow.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-26-2016/first#post5957898

So no, haste stomps aren’t a thing anymore, and when the Druid enters stealth it’s only for 3 seconds which still leaves a time where they are visible for the stomp same with Mesmer and Thief unless they waste everything they have to stack stealth or if the Thief drops SR on you.

The only skills that can stomp are Function Gyro which is 5 secs iirc or Thief Elite which can be timed exactly when you go to the downed state to finish almost instantly if they use those attacks before you enter the downed state.

I’m complaining about quickness speeding up the cast of stomp, not the cast of rez.

It’s not listed in the wiki that there are any exclusions for it and I don’t believe that’s a change that stayed in the game as I can see it in action daily.

Apparently my phone didn’t copy properly go to the link I posted look right above class balance, it says Finish them is not affected by quickness or slow. That’s why I provided the link.

And it has stayed in game it is still about 3.5 sec to complete a stomp with Quickness.

Also the Wiki is user maintained not developer maintained, lots of outdated sections.

It just seems you have a misunderstanding with current game mechanics that have been removed for almost 8 months now.

Ragnarox.9601:

Tissitra.4153:

No actually since your statement appears to be nonsensical as thief dodges don’t even heal last time I checked. EVADING AN ATTACK will heal DD, but not dodging as such. So the correct math is as follows: 3*Thief dodge=3*0=0 heal.

Sustain=ability to replenish your healthpool over time. This is different from the ability to avoid damage va dodge/block/stealth etc. If thief has a third of dh’s healing while having the same healthpool, then it has a third of the sustain. PERIOD.

Srry but stealth is better than block cause Thieves first attack is 7-10k backstab + free disengage. Guardian does not have disengage at all we fight or die.

If you want to make suggestions what to nerf, make Guardian/DH, play for 200-500 hours than you can judge.

Stealth isn’t better than a block it doesn’t stop damage any channeled skill still hits, any Aoe still hits, any cleave still hits, doesn’t mitigate damage all that much unless someone uses SA, all it mainly does is make players lose target so the Thief can reposition and lose pressure.

Only if it’s against another Thief or Any light armor class running no toughness and doesn’t have protection/Frost/Aura/other similar Damage reduction effects, and that is if it hits when they have 1 chance to land it…… On most classes it hits for 4K crit, the only time I have gotten it to hit for 10k was against a thief when I run my Da/Cs/Trickery build with Fury on.

And they don’t have free disengage if they hit you while in stealth they have 4secs of revealed, and if they back stabbed you they had to spend either a 40 second Cd or waste 9 out of 15 initiative not counting any other skills used in that time frame. Unless you mean the 60 sec cd that is used more for a Stun break/Condi cleanse.

And DHs can disengage they can use Wings of Resolve, Renewed Focus invuln 3 secs refresh all virtues, they can JI or Sword to a different target that won’t be a hindrance to them I.e out of range to be a threat but allows them to port 1200 units away.

Alexander.6250:

Of course in PvP it’s not much of a problem, but in the new HoT maps you just can’t use it at all. It would be less of a problem if the roll direction was more controllable. Often your character gets ‘stuck’ for a second after using skills making you dodge in the wrong direction when you use this skill.

Again this is a Terrain and Character awareness issue, I use Withdraw in every game mode in all maps, how you fix it is to make your characters back face the direction you want to go if you do that every time you will go the proper direction, I have never fallen to my death when using this heal in Hot maps, WvW where cliffs are abundant or anywhere else. The only time you will get stuck is if you are in the middle of a Shadowstep animation or animation similar to Vault or Death Blossom.

Luna.9640:

LUST.7241:

Luna.9640:

LUST.7241:

2. Class Mastery – One should not be forced into picking a class they are inexperienced with. Forcing this causes more harm than good. I rather have a team of experienced players rather than a team of inexperienced ones playing a class because it’s good composition.

This is an issue for Solo-Queue, not so much when you are in a group and have complete control over your choices. Plus, there is not only ONE way to play a single class.

This actually discourages good gameplay and invokes a more careless one. Heck, it discouraged me from doing Ascension achievements… I rather not play ranked with a class I’m not experienced with and I don’t recommend others to practice classes in ranked either.

Or you know you can have few squishy classes in your team in heavy bunker meta which cannot get into the point let alone cap+hold it.

Or you can have couple of support build classes during a heavy dps meta where they cant even support themselves let alone support the team.

In both scenarios – you loose.

On the other hand if you encourage people to play RANKED games when they can actually be flexible and swich multiple classes you will:

1. Have more variet and interesting games.
2. Better teammates that understad the game and classes they own and face better.
3. Overwall better game quality which will promote having more tournament ready teams that want to compete in Guild Wars 2 Tournaments. (currently the gap between Tournaments Pro. Teams and Ranked Teams is like few Light Years)

I fully support LordHealseth (even tho I’m not much of an elitist like people call him and other pro. players) about his suggestion that PRESTIGIOUS ITEMS (like TheAscension backpack) from PVP should be hard to earn and require you to be trully legendary and not “I cannot re-roll coz I’m exp. with single class” type of player.

Again, those are mostly solo-queue issues that were heightened issues because people were forced to play multiple classes for a “legendary”. Organized teams/Pro teams don’t have this issue.

And yeah, I get it…if there is a legendary reward, it should be somewhat hard to get…but what’s so “legendary” about playing a class you aren’t familiar with? People should be rewarded for what they are good at not be rewarded for something they are inexperienced with.

This can be resolved in another way: “Win X ranked games WITH an Engineer”, “Win X ranked games WITH an Elementalist”, “Win X ranked games WITH a Revenant”, etc. That would encourage more variety in team composition than just forcing someone to play another class.

You should get familiar with few classes if you’re going to play RANKED.

If you want to be mono-class player play unranked.

Really simple – be competitive or be more relaxed.

You can be competitive while still running one class, you are more marketable if you can play multiple classes well, but if you want to be competitive in gw2 PvP then you should only play ranked if you have a team and only play Unranked if you solo queue, see how that argument goes.

You can’t claim to be competitive in a game that allows class stacking, that has horrible balancing that favors passive gameplay and low skill floor classes, in a game mode that has safety nets at every level of play so you can never actually lose and reflect where you should be and forces you into a bottleneck.

The easiest way to provide a semblance of balance is to get rid of class stacking, and not allow class swapping once match starts. But that will never happen because of people complaining about queue times since the Player base is so tiny.

Sifu.9745:

PierPiero.9142:

I ’d avoid thief. Thief is an high tactical class and for going solo with thief and being usefull you have to have a good map knowledge and strategy. it is not a class for beginners .

Depends what kind of weapon set you’ve been using: P/P Thief is probably the easiest spec in the game and very effective. Every noob can kill with double pistols in a matter of seconds (yes, you can kill DHs with p/p), while other weapon sets requires much more skill. p/p burst dmg is super high (power, not condi) and survivability is not that bad, just be sure to take d/p offset vs profession with high reflection or SB if you need more mobility.

P/P has the worst survivability out of all thief specs it takes more awareness than the others to pull off, it is an all in build for most intents and purposes, the person playing it needs to be able to kite with only having 900 range. It has very limited stealth since it is initiative heavy

LUST.7241:

I understand the value of “exclusives” to some players…but I feel like GW2 has gravitated away from that so there is less “feeling behind”…even if it just a title (which I don’t even use anyway). That’s why I keep coming back.

Would be nicer, since the legendary division is “repeatable”, that each time someone repeats the division placement, they unlock the next title.

Ex.

• Primordial Legend – Cross into the legendary division.
• Exalted Legend – Repeat the legendary division twice in the same season.
• Illustrious Legend - Repeat the legendary division three times in the same season.
• Indomitable Legend – Repeat the legendary division four times in the same season.

…and so on.

It is an achievement to cross into the division out of luck (solo) or skill (grouped). No matter how…it shouldn’t be tied to a season. Don’t get “Illustrious Legend” title this season? No worried, get it next season! No need for exclusives.

That removes the point of getting it in those seasons though, there are lot of achievements/titles you can no longer get, the game evolves and moves forward, if you weren’t playing during those times you missed out that’s the simple truth, there is no reason to cater to people that didn’t want to put in the time for the titles/achievment/item when they were obtainable, it is limited content for a reason, especially now that they are removing rewards away from prestige of playing PvP.

OriOri.8724:

Ario.8964:

OriOri.8724:

Ario.8964:

OriOri.8724:

For the second time in this thread. Mesmers only gain a 10% increase to revive speed with that trait. The “dome” is just a feedback that reflects projectiles. Its hardly OP, get inside it and wreck them. Or just use AOE, or unblockable projecticles. There is nothing OP about that trait

I don’t think it’s all about “Oh this is op that is op”. Part of the reason for thesse demands is normalizing rez capability. Once normalized then numbers and other such things can be looked at but when you have to balance around random factors then it makes balance impossible. Say we buff base res speed, then all the 10% traits would be op as kitten but if we nerf it then they may be mandatory to get a res off any time.

Solution is to remove all safe stomps and res buffs so that the actions are normalized and then change functions accordingly. Cap on rally range would be a fine implementation just by itself so that can go in regardless. (Tired of killing someone once they deem it safe to leave a teamfight only to have them rally from someone across the map who happened to die)

Except that most classes already have a 10% increase in revive speed trait.

Necros do.
Mesmers do.
Elementalists do.
Thief does (and gets stealth as well).
Heralds do.
Rangers do (though it automatically activates search and rescue, which does make this trait more powerful).

6 out of 9 classes have access to these revive speed traits and yet he only complains about mesmers.

Yes he picked one out of the many but what is probably meant is all of them need to be removed from pvp. There should not be any variability in stomps or res so that they can be balanced. Safe/stab stomps going away so stomping is a riskier action combined with removal of res traits will make it significantly easier to balance down state.

I disagree on removing them, but I agree on standardizing them. If you are running a trait to increase revive speed, you are giving up another trait that could potentially be more useful throughout the entire game than in the specific instances where you can safely rez someone. As long as they are all standardized to 10% increase in speed its fine as it is, most I could support is making it not stack with that one rune effect that increases your revive speed by another 20%.

The reason it feels broken is because of Scrappers gyro which does it for him. That entire mechanic needs to be changed honestly but the other traits are fine as they are

You are in luck Superior Runes of Mercy are removed from sPvP.

Ragnarox.9601:

Tissitra.4153:

First of all if you are to compare marauder DH with thief or ELE DH, then the most rational way to do it IS to pick the best builds on that amulet on these classes. According to metabattle, this is marauder d/p on thief (meta) and fresh air on ele (listed as ‘good’). Now the auromacer build which runs mender’s and is listed higher will indeed get more healing than fresh air, but why would you compare marauder DH with a BUNKER build. And for marauder, the healing numbers are as above:

DH symbolic (as listed on metabattle) 30k HP in 30 sedons
DH meditrapper (as listed on metabattle) 25k HP in 30 seconds
Fresh Air ELE (as listed on metabattle) about 12k HP in 30 seconds
D/P Thief (as listed on metabattle) about 10-12k HP in 30 seconds

The detailed computation for the DH builds is in my posts above for anyone to doublecheck. Similarly, you can check for ele and thief.

Now this is the MAXIMAL possible average healing, and the practiacal numbers in combat will be lower. However, if the ideal value symbolic DH is TRIPLE what it is for d/p thief, then that ration will be similar in non-ideal situtations.

Thief has 3 dodge rolls thus its equal to DH triple more heal. Get it now?

Let’s see here Daredevil 3 dodges rolls = Dragonhunter heals?

1 Extra dodge does not equate to being able to fully reset your life on top of stopping most damage.

Not to mention all of the passive blocks and active blocks DHs have on top of the heals and the invuln which resets some of those skills…

It’s not like Daredevil has 3 dodges and DH has 0.