Guild Wars 2

Seras.5702:

foofad.5162:

Because it would be overpowered. Two handed weapons have a much higher innate damage range than one handed weapons. That’s the short version.

But sigils don’t modify individual weapons. They modify your total stats. Are you saying that the inability to equip 2 sigils is offset by allowing 2h weps to deal more damage than 1h weps?
If so, that makes sense.

You forgot weapon damage is also a function of skill coefficient, so, yeah. Indeed.

Vayne.8563:

So if I go home every night and watch TV, I’m a hard core TV ?

Yes. I never watch tv, I believe slime oozes out of it onto the floor. I’d say one hour of tv a day is definately hardcore.

Puandro.3245:

Rangers are really good in sPvP.

Not only this but pvp made me think harder about what ranger is and why, thus making me a better dungeon runner. In fact, spvp players of deer rank will likely putperform most PUGs that ONLY do pve. There’s little doubt in my mind about this.

Puandro.3245:

Chopps.5047:

Puandro.3245:

Rangers are the worst class on dungeons by far. Your part dies and you lose 50% of your damage. Yes you can still solo dungeons without pets because the AI is dumb and its just about remembering patterns.

My pets don’t die vs lupicus and I reflect 50k dmg with [Whirling Defense]. I also prevent grub spawn at transition with a well timed pet swap after the melee pet takes grub aggro at phase 1/2 transition. For many groups, ranger is a great Ruined City of Arah profession (protection / fury / healing / reviving / grub prevention / reflection / invuln / combo fields).

Because you can do decent in some dungeons it doesnt make the ranger good, an example is how bad rangers are in CoE against alpha. Literally all the pet needs is to gain invulnability when the player dodges to make the pet damage viable in dungeons and fix sword auto attack so you can move around your target while attacking and ranger will be in a very good place.

I will post video of my pets living in CoE as well. In fact, I made a post about it a while back and suggested using drakes for the blast in water fields. Don’t yell at me! It’s true, man, why would I lie?

What a great OP. Thanks for the perspective.

Straegen.2938:

PsionicDingo.2065:

The Four Warriors + One (Sigh) Mesmer mentality functions like this:

The Mesmer is there for Time Warp and Reflect (which does a metric kitten of damage if you reflect right). That’s your job, and it’s all you’re wanted for.

Warriors pump out the most damage, period. Damage is king – Direct Damage, not Condition Damage. Banners and Shouts help the entire group stay buffed.

Agreed. When the mobs stand there hundred blades does about the most DPS in the game. Thieves can come close but they come in with less armor and way fewer HP. Stealth is a near useless mechanic in PvE and if a group does need it, hello mesmer.

Ranger even maxed out for damage cannot come close to warrior DPS on a stationary target and thief group buffs are pretty crappy. Their heal is great but that is about it.

According to these fine folks testing and hard work a ranger outperforms warrior in straight up damage (no buffs) when pet is included. Here’s the link

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Ranger-GS-vs-Warrior-GS-direct-comparison/first#post1659440

Notice I never said Ranger > Warrior, rather, I am simply stating a fact (in before 100 people tell me about banners and FGJ). Also, interestingly, warrior axe appears to have higher DPS than 100b because 100b is channeled and has a long activation time. Does anyone mind fact checking that because I can’t find it in the link.

I am not trying to fight, I just want to get the facts out there. Happy hunting!

haviz.1340:

Chopps.5047:

Out of thousands of PUGs, most would wipe trying this.

They’re not a pug.

Afya.5842:

Not that experience in arah. How do you know who lupi is targetting for grab skill?

He turns around.

I don’t get your point? I think you misread my message so I’ll say it again: most people can’t do this so for them it doesn’t really matter what profession they play. Whereas the person I responded to was trying to imply that only warrior/mez/guard should be used. I, for one, like running alts in dungeons to level and gear them and I dislike people saying I can’t take my thief, ranger, or ele. I hope that helps you get where I’m coming from.

Anyways ty for the insight folks, again, GJ obal! Gz!

Afya.5842:

Dub.1273:

You’d have been kicken in phase 1 anyway without aegis, the dodge was too late. Also very few 100b’s, using it more you could increase your damage output by over 30%. Also the team should try to not dodge grubs when he aims on someone else. kitten good job @ obal, i see about nothing that could be done better.

Not that experience in arah. How do you know who lupi is targetting for grab skill?

He targets whoever is highest on his threat level. You don’t have a good way of knowing who this is and you only find out after he casts it (green cloud appears on someone). Good players dodge the grub by dodging when he raises his hand above his head, which will trigger an “evaded!” message.

Windwalker.2047:

Wow good job guys-well played
And this proves my theory that 3 wars 1 mes 1 guard is the best dungeon group possible
and that bringing anything else is a waste of everyone’s time.

Nah, 90% of that is just the product of good play. Only—literally—a handful of groups can do what they did there. It looks easy but that’s only because their timing and positioning was darn near perfect. Out of thousands of PUGs, most would wipe trying this.

Leo G.4501:

I always wondered what the fixation on such runs are. I mean, it’s not particularly hard but I guess fewer seconds is sumthin

Why not? I think it’s kind of cool. It definately shows what abilities are OP. I always thought it was lame that defiant is so strong when a mesmer can do…that…to a boss. But the feedback is a little harder to do than stun lock a boss. Bjarl the Rampager is one of the few bosses in the game where stun locking is effective but every boss with huge aoe gets pwned by mesmers. In a way, the warrior and guardian ability to tank aggro is a passive stun lock. If anet wants to bring rangers, ele’s, and thiefs up to this level, it seems they need to nerf reflection/aegis or nerf defiant. Again, just my opinion not trying to start a war here.

I wasn’t trying anything. I was just extrapolating based on what I saw. To me, I didn’t even think they had to dodge roll once but I watched on a tiny cell phone screen. Still, do you think 65 or 70 s is a bad estimate for thief, warrior, warrior, guardian, mesmer? And I’m still wondering how much might they stacked? I couldn’t see it was too small.

carlo.6923:

Chopps.5047:

Shiren.9532:

Gratz. They said GW2 didn’t have a holy trinity but for some reason we keep seeing warrior, guardian and mesmer parties. Crazy.

Reflection and aegis…warriors are somewhat replaceable (sorry guys, the mesmer did most of the damage). The guardian and mesmer bring aegis and reflection, without which this would not have worked. Notice the feedback bubble on lupi during aoe in phase 2.

You can replace warriors damage? I don’t think so.

*Oh, sorry, by ‘somewhat’ I meant take, say, one thief, and finish in, say, 65 seconds. It’s not world record but that’s all I was trying to say.

The mesmer and guardian likely end up doing more damage than the 3 warriors through their reflects and autos, right? The mesmer reflect bubble alone will probably do more damage than any single warrior did in the whole fight. If it doesn’t, I’m sure it’s close. Watch Lupi’s health bar melt when he AoE’s under that bubble. That’s not the warriors doing the damage there.

So what you can’t replace is the mesmer’s bubble (which must be precisely timed on lupi’s phase 2 bouncing bolt AoE which will damage for well over 100,000 in a single instant). Also, almost as important, is the aegis from the guardian which allows everyone to DPS rather than dodge roll.

These are my thoughts based on this video alone. For more information, ask Obal for he was actually there.

Shiren.9532:

Gratz. They said GW2 didn’t have a holy trinity but for some reason we keep seeing warrior, guardian and mesmer parties. Crazy.

Reflection and aegis…warriors are somewhat replaceable (sorry guys, the mesmer did most of the damage). The guardian and mesmer bring aegis and reflection, without which this would not have worked. Notice the feedback bubble on lupi during aoe in phase 2.

If you run beastmaster, your job is to slow the target for pet hits. That is the mechanic, deal with it using muddy terrain or something.

Puandro.3245:

Rangers are the worst class on dungeons by far. Your part dies and you lose 50% of your damage. Yes you can still solo dungeons without pets because the AI is dumb and its just about remembering patterns.

My pets don’t die vs lupicus and I reflect 50k dmg with [Whirling Defense]. I also prevent grub spawn at transition with a well timed pet swap after the melee pet takes grub aggro at phase 1/2 transition. For many groups, ranger is a great Ruined City of Arah profession (protection / fury / healing / reviving / grub prevention / reflection / invuln / combo fields).

Wukunlin.8461:

I heard high fives in the dev room when they watched a group got wiped because they didn’t expect the change and then a bunch of awwww’s when they found out you can still solo it.

Seriously, why in the gods’ names do they only put a selective amount of changes in dungeons in patch notes? either put all of them in or don’t put them in there at all. If they want to give everyone a surprise after every patch, I can live with it. But when they say something has changed it kind of implies others haven’t but no. Anet seriously has issues communicating with the player base.

That’s actually pretty funny and I hope it’s true.

HoboLyra.4908:

Really, this boss is bullkitten. No AOE or you aggro hundreds of spiders so mesmer clones/phantoms are out. They spiders have WAY to much health adn do some pretty hard hits when there are tonnes of them… the other bosses are fine this one is bullkitten.

Kill like ten waves of spiders when they stop coming, make sure you use single target attack on tree, dodge his shaking aoe attack, easy as pie. Rock on!

Nikaido.3457:

Yup, it’s just kind of difficult to go beyond the mental barrier that keeps you on the defensive (despite knowing what to do, I still felt tense and keeping off things like whirlwind as a potential defense). This is the second time we’re doing something like this, and the recorded run was our first try today (and last for the day obviously, we were happy with the result and have all the time in the world to try again to beat our own record).

My guardian’s name is “Skullcrusher” if you’ve ever wondered who snagged that name :p.

Anyways, first of all: nice aegis and reflects. Second of all: nice reflects. Third: nice aegis. How much might you guys stacking? I couldn’t tell on my phone.

Finally: that was a pleasure to watch.

Minimum patch size is 50 mb for technical reasons. It’s likely they stealth patched certain exploits, at least that’s what I hear through the grapevine.

I got one last night, if that helps.

Do not nerf CoF…leave those l33t players in Balefire’s prison: path 1. Do not unleash them on the rest of the populace. /s

Amulets? I’m getting the cat tonic. Meow! Me me me meow meow meow!

I’m sorry you lost gold, bro, that suuuuuucks. I feel your pain.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

I long ago gave up thinking the class descriptions were an accurate description of how they played.

This.

Daemon.4295:

Sebrent.3625:

You both are out of line and violating the code of conduct. Shape up fellas and get back on topic. Hint: the topic isn’t either of you.

Priceless.

:p I didn’t derail it with banners but I did make it worse. This isn’t about Sebrent either, who was instigating just as much. Sebrent…pot calling kettle black much?

Seriously though, anyone know spirit range? Been wondering that.

Sebrent.3625:

Ah, you’re correct, I forgot to factor in the up-time of the banner.

It still stands that for 10 points you get almost double what you get for 20 points though. For 10 points, it’s 100% up-time on the non-elite banners, which brings us back to my earlier math. For 20 points, spirits proc 35% more (total 70%).

Additionally, the up-time of spirits is not guaranteed to be 100%. They can die.

Can banners not die? By the way, has anyone tested spirit range?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Poison is not a high damage ability. Though I really don’t understand how they nerfed confusion but not bleeding and burning.

Bleeding does about 120 dmg/stack/tick. It can last ~12 seconds and is easily applied in stacks of 15-20. You can not avoid the damage

Confusion after the nerf does 150 dmg/stack/tick it is capped at 10 seconds, but usually only lasts 4-5, it is very difficult to stack more then 5 stacks on a person for more then a split second. You can easily avoid all damage from it by not attacking.

Bleeding does 2-3x more damage on average now then confusion, it needs to have a 66% nerf imo.

If you nerf poison and burning, you nerf rangers, engis, eles, and necros. Do they sound like professions that need nerfed?

I always thought you had to do the starting instance, which, upon completion puts you at level 2? What did you just go to heart of the mists right away?

The last thread was closed due to wild accusations of cheating. I know, people play unfairly from time to time. Report those people through official channels and keep this thread clean, if you can. Thanks!

Vayne.8563:

dimgl.4786:

Vayne.8563:

Because GW 1 was very well balanced. It was so easy to balance all those skills. What you might not be realizing is that GW 1 was a nightmare for some people, because of the number of skills. People didn’t know how to make builds. A lot of people tried the game, failed heavily and went on to different games. Anet doesn’t want that to happen again.

Now people are forced to take a self-heal. They’re forced to have at least some skills that work together. Sure it doesn’t suit you, personally. Doesn’t particularly suit me either. But that doesn’t mean it’s not better from a design point of view, or better for the game.

The combination of the number of skills in Guild Wars 1 and the second profession mechanic made the game virtually impossible to balance. It screwed with PvP and PVe became so easy it was meaningless, down to the point where you could use a Rit to solo farm ectos in the underworld.

I too miss the skill selection from Guild Wars 1, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a good reason for not having it in Guild Wars 2.

Omg! A game that makes players think?! SAY IT AIN’T SO!

I love games that make you think. I also recognize that the kind of game Guild Wars 2 was going to be depends on traffic and, unfortunately, if you make people think, you’ll seriously limit the number of people playing the game. Guild Wars 1 had 20% of the staff of Guild Wars 2. This is a much bigger project and has to appeal to a much wider audience.

WoW doesn’t make anyone think and has a zillion players. Guild Wars 1 did make people think and had far less (though many just as devoted). I’m a Guild Wars 1 fan and loved the game.

But I’m also aware that a game that aims to be mainstream can’t make people think too much, because there are fewer smart people than average people (pretty much by definition lol).

In competitve counterstrike, builds are very vanilla and many people take similar loadouts. But since there’s not build wars, well, I suppose no one thinks. Right? That’s what you’re saying? The guy that got into position to fake a flashbang with a pistol for the win? He’s not a thinker at all!

And how about real life sports? Everyone starts with the same gear and the follow a strict set of the same rules. Well, gee, it’s all positioning and timing and no build wars.

I guess none of those people think either?

fade.8603:

All the debates over transfers that has happened is not going to change anything. Please don’t reply to such posts anymore as it fuels even more debates which isn’t going to change anything and which will never end. Let’s do postings on a neutral standpoint.

It’s almost as if ANET allows people to transfer servers. Crazy, am I right?

Leash the pet in spvp if and only if top teams agree it’s OP. Do not leash in wvw or pve (for obvious reasons as a class mechanic: sending pets to attack siege, or tank mobs while kiting).

Rengaru.4730:

Chopps.5047:

0.08 * (1.5 + 0.15) * (95/120) = 0.1045 FTFY Sebrent :P

*I never said one was better than the other. Remember, this kitten all started with

Chopps.5047:
Warrior regen without healing power is useless.

followed by this gem from Rengaru:
“Your comment is useless…What excactly does this change about the fact that Warrior banners are innately better (by factor 4-6) and even traited Spirits are worse (by factor 2-3).”

You warriors got you jimmies rustled and attacked me for pointing out a tiny fact that you broke a neck vain over. I mean, this guy said 3 to 4 times better and NO ONE attacks him for being off by a large margin—not even a correction from Sebrent. Why? Hmm…maybe it’s just easier to bandwagon and pick on Chopps?

Dude…
…at this point I think you are just a troll.

If you really want to continue this conversation, I sugest you read my posts first, cause I already did all the math for you (including the calculation in your post).

If you don’t understand a specific part you could even ask me to explain, but don’t assume im wrong just cause you can’t read/understand what I wrote.

I read just fine, thank you (summa kitten laude BSME). I challenged you to show the math because you were wrong about your 4x better statement and I wanted to slam you for it. But we had to wait for Sebrent to ruin it for me.

You are the troll. Who comes in a ranger forum question on spirits in PVP, derails it with a banner discussion, then insults my intelligence? You.

Sebrent.3625:

+8% crit chance with +15% crit damage.

Crit damage is 150% + crit damage stat.

.08 * (1.5+0.15) = 0.132 = 13.2%

The math has now been done for you. Continue to discuss. I still agree that spirits are lackluster compared to banners.

0.08 * (1.5 + 0.15) * (95/120) = 0.1045 FTFY Sebrent :P

*I never said one was better than the other. Remember, this kitten all started with

Chopps.5047:
Warrior regen without healing power is useless.

followed by this gem from Rengaru:
“Your comment is useless…What excactly does this change about the fact that Warrior banners are innately better (by factor 4-6) and even traited Spirits are worse (by factor 2-3).”

You warriors got you jimmies rustled and attacked me for pointing out a tiny fact that you broke a neck vain over. I mean, this guy said 3 to 4 times better and NO ONE attacks him for being off by a large margin—not even a correction from Sebrent. Why? Hmm…maybe it’s just easier to bandwagon and pick on Chopps?

@The Menu

(sing to the tune of “The Metal” by Tenacious D)

You can’t kill the Quarry
The Quarry will live on

Devari tried to kill the Quarry
But they failed, as they were smite to the ground

Stormbluff tried to kill the Quarry
But they failed, as they were stricken down to the ground

Sorrows tried to kill the Quarry

Hahahahahaha
They failed, as they were thrown to the ground

Aargh! yeah! [x2]

[Singing] <— my favorite part!

No-one can destroy the Quarry
The Quarry will strike you down with a vicious blow

We are the vanquished foes of the Quarry
We tried to win for why we do not know

Blackgate tried to destroy the Quarry, but the Quarry had its way

Rall then tried to dethrone the Quarry, but the Jade was in the way

[RISE] tried to destroy T1, but T1 was much too strong

Frudoo tried to defile the Quarry, but Frudoo was proven wrong

Yea!

Jade Quarry!
It comes from hell!

PS – This is just a joke! Good luck to everyone out there. Yes, even you, Frudoo. :P

So the community consensus seems to be leash pets in spvp, nerf rangers in spvp, buff ranger spirits, rework traitlines, leave pet leash alone in pve/wvw, buff longbow auto, and remove pet death penalty CD from pve.

I don’t necessarily agree with all of that (particularly the death penalty) but I figured it was good to try and summarize this stuff since so much is thrown around. Anyone want to chime in on this? I bet the devs like some of those ideas and loathe others.

Guy makes claim

People ask for proof

Guy says “You’re welcome to do math yourself but it doesn’t take algebra to…blah blah blah I’m right you’re wrong”

Good one; I’m done here.

UnrepentantProcrastinator.7420:

One of these days someone will post a score update that isn’t a blatant vanity post to show off their character. One day.

Did you see Jedbacca’s update earlier in this thread? Reposted here for convenience:

Avenge.1478:

Not going to lie, I’ve grown a tad bit of respect for the older BG players. They don’t gloat nearly as much as the bandwagoner RISE/WM/etc guilds that have flooded into BG. It’s kind of like that rookie who joins a veteran team who’s worked so hard over the years building up and whatever, only to run their mouths after one victory about how they’re the second coming of Michael Jordan’s 1990’s Bulls.

Should probably hush up a bit ;p

Ya, really, hush up: you’re going to jinx the Bulls. Robinson FTW! You know, in a way, the Bulls are like SoR and Miami is like BG.

Aridia.3042:

Rengaru.4730:

Sure, let’s debate…

…but first, this is just for the sake of argument.
We both agree that banners outclass spirits, right?

Untraited

• Warrior banners last 95/120 seconds untraited.
  Ignoring factors such as out of combat travel time, the overall damage increase for Warrior Banners untraited is around 10% for non-crit players and 17% for crit players

• Ranger spirits last 60/60 seconds.
  Ignoring the fact Ranger spirits can die reducing their uptime to under 100% and the requirement for a Grandmaster trait for them to be moveable to a different battlefield, they still increase the damage by 3.5% untraited or 7% traited.

Introducing adept traits

• The Adept level trait “Inspiring Banners” for warrior increases Warrior banners uptime to 100% bringing the damage increase back to 13% – 21%

• The Rangers adept trait “Vigorous Spirits” doubles the spirits health, merely increasing the chance for a 100% uptime (still no guaranteed uptime)

So with both classes investing 10 points for their skills we are at

• Warrior: 13% – 21%, mobile, unkillable

• Ranger : 3.5%, immobile, killable

Moving on to master traits

• None for Warrior

• “Spiritual Knowledge” doubles the proc chance for Spirits

So for 20 points (optional for the warrior if he doesnt want to use the Grandmaster trait) we have

• Warrior: 13% – 21%, mobile, unkillable

• Ranger : 7%, immobile, killable

And finally Grandmaster traits

• Warriors with “Inspiring Battle Standard” will provide permanent regeneration.

• “Spirits Unbound” is the only way to make Spirits mobile, but increases the risk of them getting killed by the enemy.

• Warrior: 13% – 21%, mobile, unkillable, permanent AoE regeneration

• Ranger : 7%, mobile, easy killable

Your move :P

You forgot the best part. Banners have a blast finisher for water fields.

True and that’s one of the best things about banners. But did you not notice that he starts the premise with the conclusion with no proof? “We agree banners outclass spirits (in terms of pure DPS)”. All I asked for was the math.

Also, I added the stuff in parenthesis because it’s important to point out what you’re actually trying to compare. I mean, you say “outclassed” and I say “for what build”. The reason I say that is because just like neglecting blasts, we should acknowledge there exists a secondary on spirits.

Another good thing about spirits is that you can heal them and they can stack buffs, although I am not familiar with studies on this. I will check in mists and report back but I’ve definitely seen might proc on a spirit before.

Straegen.2938:

Spirits cannot dodge, get AoE’d to death, absolutely no control of them and the player has to take an entire trait line to make them remotely useful. They are also on a class that needs every good trait to be competitive.

Even with the recent patch buffs they still kitten a ranger in solo and WvW fights. Maybe they are good in PvE, but the Ranger already excels in solo PvE without them.

Warriors die too! I can’t tell you how many I’ve rezzed. Spirits can be positioned to not die. It’s really easy.

Go watch the live stream (prerecorded) of molten facility we ran (sitting on a couch gaming) where I test spirits. I had one spirit death from testing it in a poor position (I announced I would purposefully put it in a bad place to see how it did). Some players in the group went down more than once. Banners aren’t so great when downed, are they?

Ryuujin.8236:

Chopps.5047:

I just thought pointing it out in the first place was sort of irrelevant. Few warriors run healing power, in my experience.

A free lunch is still a free lunch even if it’s just a cheese sandwich.

I want math not analogies. He could be right but until I see a DPS to DPS comparison, your analogy doesn’t even apply.

Rengaru.4730:

Chopps.5047:

Derive the math on the banner including non-crit hits and CD because without that, it’s hard to make a fair comparison.

That makes no sense at all…

You can’t just ignore the chance of ever critting, thats not how math works.

(Its like saying “Rangers Frost Spirit does nothing, cause there is a chance of it never procing”)

And I even calculated the damage increase with cooldown in the worst case (for Warrior) scenario.

It makes perfect sense because you don’t crit every time. You can’t directly compare the banner to the spirit for this reason (spirit is a flat increase, the other is an increase on crit and one does not crit every time except for 100% crit chance builds).

I have no source on your numbers because you never give one.

Go ahead and talk kitten but if you are going to make claims without proof, go home. I got slammed for pulling that before now it’s your turn.

Jedbacca.6297:

::gets popcorn:: This guy amuses me a lot, please add more details, I’m on an afternoon break and could use some more entertainment.

Popcorn, el capitan?

I like pairing clerics with knights, berserker, or magi trinkets depending on how I feel that day. I have no idea if that helps. :p

Because every profession mechanic has 1 trait line for that mechanic. For rangers, it’s the pet attribute.

Ah…my eyes…no….paragraphs…

Derive the math on the banner including non-crit hits and CD because without that, it’s hard to make a fair comparison.

Romek.4201:

i play ranger too and i think its fine, but range from pet is to high

i can stay outside on mines and just need a target on keep and can send my pet – thats broken and op. range from pet should be max 1500 and than despawn back to the ranger

i testet my pet full on dmg can easy solo kill berserker mesmers warriors eles or whatever – just put pet on them and it will follow for ever they have no chance to lose the aggro from pet or kill it fast enough – ppl should have a chance to lose the aggro

Pet range should be the same or longer in wvw and pve though.

LetoII.3782:

Chopps.5047:

LetoII.3782:

If you found that insulting….. lul
I was my most evil laugh, what’s the proper symbol, muahaha?

That was @rebound. By the way, I run rabid ranger on necro night. :P Although I would like to get my necro up to 80 before this new condition drops.

I’m sitting in a piece of machinery posting on an android, so my composition time is slow.
From my perspective you posted simultaneous to me. Guess I need to quote more.

You were talking to rebound too? SF hugs!