Guild Wars 2

If you use knight’s, consider traiting Armored Attack. It will help offset your damage loss by not going berserkers, at the expense of an extra 5s invuln.

Also, consider taking your total armor to 3k or so max, and use berserker for the rest.

Odokuro.5049:

I see what your saying, but, what about the several or more people from your guild or your server who need to get into a certain map to bring up the numbers, because a dozen or so of your server is just standing there looking at a couple people duel.

I have no problem with people dueling or wanting to improve ect. However I would like to know your opinion on why WvW exists? What is it’s intended purpose, given what it takes to win during the week?

My opinion is that wvw is whatever people want it to be. Some people like to duel, others like to ppt, some like to zerg, others like to roam, and some people like to sit on trebs all day.

If you have a bunch of people sitting around dueling when things are falling apart and helpers are stuck in queue, I suggest asking if some of the duelers are willing to pitch in or move the duels off map so others can help.

Just remember that nobody’s obligated to do anything, so screaming at them in map chat is a great way to not get what you want. Similarly, duelers who behave like jerks are probably more likely to get their duels ruined.

If people are cool and remember they’re just playing a game, things tend to go much better.

Odokuro.5049:

If it’s RED it’s DEAD, don’t waste queue-slots in WvW if your not going to help your side win that week. You want to get better on a solo scale? Then go and roam, find other roamers, see how you fair vs. them. Want to see if your guild is better than the other guild? Go to the OS or heck, those things in your guild hall, I think they’re called, “Arenas” I could be wrong…

What’s a queue slot? I seem to have a vague memory of something like that, but… it’s been so long.

That said, if you want to think in terms of queue slots, a dueler on your side is taking up at least one slot from one of the opposing teams as well. Depending on the circumstances, a single dueler can also take greater number of opponents out of the fight than people doing what you think they should be doing instead.

For example, if two people on your side are dueling with 5-10 enemy spectators, that’s 7-12 enemies not taking your stuff and killing your doods for the price of two of your guys. That’s a serious bargain for your side, and everyone is doing what they want to do.

choovanski.5462:

it’s a real pity that endure pain is the only viable trait for t2. swapping it with CI again would be kind of interesting actually.

I don’t actually think DP is a major contributor to the problem so much as a very visible defense when fighting a Berserker that just won’t die. Nobody really complained about it until AH got buffed, so it seems to me looking at AH makes the most sense.

Swapping CI and DF would either do nothing (to the builds that currently take DF and CI), or it would make builds that currently have to choose between RR and CI tougher against condis and able to burst spam more (increasing damage and potential to keep AH constant, which is already easy).

As noted (by myself and others), Berserker has two advantages over vanilla warrior (who nobody complains about) in regards to AH:

1. Burst spammabilty, which gives loads of chances to maintain permanent AH
2. Arc Divider, which hits like a truck (part of the aggravation) and has enough range to almost guarantee AH proc in a fight (especially a group fight)

Address either of those two points and I think the issue will largely be addressed without hacking away at builds that aren’t a problem.

Imo, making it so a primal burst counts as fewer stages of adren is the way to go.

Jayne nailed it. You can do what you want, but you may well not like the consequences. Otherwise, it’s all part of observing the, “Don’t be a kitten” rule.

Didn’t the invention of victory points pretty much negate the advantage of off-hour K-training, at least in relation to propping up servers who weren’t going to win anyway?

As for not being sufficiently incentivized to not join the horde, well, I can’t relate. I’m almost never fighting with more than ten allies nearby, and probably 90% of the time I’m either roaming by myself or with one or two friends. That other 10% I’m jsut fighting near allies, not following them around.

I don’t get it.

I love the Alt-F4 move. Makes me feel like the guy who just did it is like…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Pq56pHtnY

Weakness, maybe?

reikken.4961:

Justine.6351:

shortening its duration so 100% uptime requires landing more than 1 burst every lol15seconds.

I like this solution.

I prefer just dealing with the Berserker side of that equation. Bursts are way more spammable with it, and nobody’s complaining about vanilla warriors in regards to AH.

babazhook.6805:

In any case yes I play NA. I am west coaster and usually play later at night as I tend to like it better when populations drop. I am just not a big fan of the blob fights though this build does very well in them.

Good stuff. I play on Ehmry (currently linked to HoD), and that sort of timing might work out, depending on how late is late.

Will shoot you a pm if I see you online, just in case we’re paired up or against you. Failing that, I guess there’s EoTM, though I’ve only been there for duels.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Here is my exact build

As I’d said in the initial comment, 1 stack of Signet Precision is active + Fury. 25 stacks of Bloodlust + the foods as well. All I did before taking this picture was activating Signet of Rage because it’s a pretty realistic circumstance since that’s often one of the first things you’ll do upon entering a fight.

You can select 25 Bloodlust stacks and adjust the Might stacks on that page to see how the stats increase if you like.

Also, no. With a 16second cooldown on Healing Signet and with Last Stand granting longer duration Berserker’s Stance + 2 conditions removed on weapon swap (Cleansing sigil + Brawler’s Recovery) I am not at all weak to conditions.

Fair enough. It’s a legit build and you’re not stacking the deck. My comment about conditions (possibly) wrecking it was contingent on you running full signets (which you aren’t doing).

Healing signet’s more of an “oh man, if I better clinch this or bail” sort of skill. More often than not it gets stripped if I use it, and then I’ve got a bar of condis and no incoming healing (unless AH is still running, because a blind on the bar with no resistance will keep me from proccing that too).

Despite the raw numbers, it’s not a particularly strong build, at least not relative to what’s out there. It’s viable and all, but it won’t supplant the more common warrior builds, even the str-def-dis vanilla warrior. Would it be fair to say you haven’t had much of a problem with vanilla warriors seeming OP in a while?

^^ Looks suspicious. Please post build.

To give you an idea, you have about 400+ more power, 6% more crit chance, almost 10% more crit damage, and 1k more toughness than a zerk warrior there. That you cut the bar out of your screen cap, I’m guessing you’re running full signets and a bunch of buffs.

If so, ironically, condis would slaughter you.

Baba are you on an NA server, by chance? It’d be good to roam around with you to see how your playstyle works, or just get a few duels in.

Seeing you run it is probably better than me grafting my playstyle to it (which makes heavy use of Fast Hands)

babazhook.6805:

Sword three hits as hard as an eviscerate on foes under half health. Sword two I find has tremendous utility for movement and chase downs in WvW if you in the arms line. The AA for power is weak compared to axe. With GS and Sw/sh and sword on the low cooldown you can get great mobility with 5 and 2 rotated.

What I like to do is stick in GS until I use my Burst (Arc divider or arccing slice) switch to SW/sh stun with shield smash then final blow. Make sure the latter when you unblockable mode either with signet of might or the built in on signet mastery if you took arms. It sort of like two Bursts in an instant.

This the power version . It of course works quite well in condition builds if you wish to go that route (some like mace/shield then sword/torch in condition i lean to sword/shield mace/torch.)

You’re giving up Discipline (or Defense) to take the Arms line on power gs/s+sh? That seems like a hell of an expensive trade to get signet mastery and blademaster. Arms would be ranked below Strength for me as well on a Berserker setup.

^^ Add to that, hard hitting power hits are normally telegraphed quite a lot, which lends itself to dodging (or other mitigations), thereby negating all damage.

Some big condi skills are also highly telegraphed, but their damage or CD usually compensates the risk of being cleared (e.g. some insanely high damage if the skill went uncleansed, but still a high burst if it gets cleansed midway).

That much of the applied condi is low telegraph and incremental, dodges are less valuable than with power, and it doesn’t take much to overwhelm an opponent’s condi cleanses (especially with high condi diversity).

Meaning, the justification for Dire seems weak to me. Condi can burst, lockdown, etc. more now than ever, and the number of invulns and other mitigations a number of classes can chain together after application, you can’t reasonably say condi users need double defensive stats on an otherwise full (condi) damage build.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Because you could not use it in PvP/Gvg/HoH/AB/FA at all unless you were in the lobby. That is why ALL builds have some area where they are vulnerable. It was only allowed in PvE towns, not in the instances unless you leveled up.

Maybe I misunderstood the purpose of the thread, but I don’t see those limitations explaining why it wasn’t carried through to gw2.

Not allowing build change within a pvp match is fine, as is not allowing it mid-combat (which is the case now). But the presets just allowed for simpler switching when you were otherwise allowed to change up.

If it was paired up with a locker so we didn’t have to carry all our gear in bags, that’d be even better, imo.

I remember when they brought this into gw1. It was a massive QoL improvement that was popular with everyone. No idea why it wasn’t carried over to gw2 from the beginning.

SlitheSlivier.1908:

I feel like if they nerf that build, they will make a good build (but far from the top) obsolete and the staff will never be used. On another note, I have no problem killing vault thieves. Actually much easier than guardians and mesmers. If you can’t beat them it is prob bc you don’t understand the many weaknesses, aren’t willing to adjust your tactics to exploit them, or just need to learn to pvp a little better.

Lol, so it’s a good build that is actually really easy to kill so if you lose to it it’s an l2p issue? Man, you need to get your story straight.

It’s practically a troll build, the power of which is enhanced by a spammable, high-damage aoe skill that includes an evade for 2/3 of its cast time plus decent escape and gap closing. Combine it with the stealth and mobility of d/p and you’ll only die if you want to. So, yeah, people can kill it as long as you stick around long enough to exhaust all of your evades, blocks, ports, etc. or stay in a fight with an obvious counter.

A simple loss of Vault’s evade, a large reduction on the damage, or an increase to the initiative cost is not an unreasonable nerf to get the risk:reward in better balance.

…and it’s partially capped. Looks like their was a respawn that turned the circle green again. But, yeah, the supervisor is dead.

As above, I’ve been running that setup as a vanilla warrior to roam in Wvw. Been going on a year or two with that general build, and the key is to leverage the mobility to offset the damage lost by not running axe.

My guess is the video sneakytails is referring to is the one (or two) made by Holtz. Should still be on YouTube.

@Cygnus
I run vanilla warrior, which isn’t overtuned from what I can see. So I proposed a change to the way Berserker interacts with it without changing the trait itself. I personally find vanilla perfectly viable for Wvw roaming, though I’d obviously get more mileage running Berserker (I just think I’d be bored).

As for needing to boost sustain elsewhere if AH was pinched, that again was in part a reflection of wanting to keep vanilla warrior somewhat viable and also somewhat dependent on the depth of the cut to AH.

I’d also support a shift toward more active defense and sustain for the class, but I think it would require considerably more work (e.g. reworking weapon and utility skills) than we should expect at this stage of the game’s life.

Cygnus.6903:

The reason to nerf it is because it does too much at the same time. Insane damage, AoE, close to instant cast, gets you absurd healing and it’s close to spammable.

In regards to Arc Divider, I personally favour either cutting the range down to roughly Arcing Slice’s range or reducing the power scaling.

In regards to Adrenal Health, I think the smarter move is having the Primal burst count as one or two stages of adrenaline rather than nerfing the trait. That would also slow down condi shedding via CI and damage through BP (assuming someone’s slotted it), but for the Berserker only (which is where the problem is).

If AH is to be nerfed, then warrior will probably need some additional sustain injected elsewhere. I’m not opposed to that route, but outside the Berserker (and its ability to spam proc AH), warrior sustain isn’t overtuned at all.

Jeknar.6184:

And honestly, I also would love to see who are the idiots who put Auto Turrets instead of Presence of the Keep.

Oh man, you’re still upset about that? You’ve been talking about it for months!

Cygnus.6903:

It is kind of stupid though, don’t you think? GS burst and Longbow burst nullify counterplay somewhat completely. The GS burst is near instant and 450 range AoE, the Longbow burst can’t even be denied. Even if you do miss, you get a retry a couple seconds later. Adrenal Health is not hard to activate or to maintain, and has contributed a lot to poisonous spammy warrior builds.

Ranged options may be limited, but a warrior is close to immune to CC, both soft and hard, if he chooses to be. So good luck keeping him off you if you’re not a thief.

Yeah, I’d like to see Arc Divider be given the same radius as Arcing Slice. It can already be spammed and has higher power scaling, so it’s advantage over AS sufficient without triple range.

But a smart druid can still outplay it in a 1v1 wvw situation. The mobility is sufficient, there’s plenty of stealth, and the two main cc is a pushback (so not immune, unless running Last Stand that isn’t on cd) and a cheap Ancient Seeds glitch which isn’t easy to land but will lock the warrior out of his bar.

That Arc Divider is only available when the warrior is glowing red makes it pretty easy for the kiting druid to avoid relative to other classes that don’t have the same tools. The warrior will proc AH off of the pet anyway.

A warrior that’s running lots of blocks and heals (like your Defender rune build) might be able to push a stalemate, but it won’t create a win unless the druid plays it badly, imo.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Jeknar.6184:

I don’t know why would someone “spy” in a game where you gain nothing for “winning” but if you still want to belive it was a spy but not a troll, go ahead. Whatever sails your ship…

You’re wrong. Hardcore WvWers play for server pride. We stop at nothing to win! FOR GLORY!

There’s still server pride?

Man… I haven’t looked at the score for over a year now, and I can’t even tell you who we’ve been paired with (or fought) for a long time either. I’ve been playing wvw exclusively since 2013 or so.

I remember spying used to be a real thing back in the day, but it seems so silly now.

@Ross Biddle
Would you have any trouble fighting warrior if you were still running your mesmer, or is it still about kite and defense while keeping a steady stream of damage?

jenzie.4083:

From a mesmers perspective you recently got some weird damage negation going on, you take no damage for like 20 seconds or something, then after that you take quite limited damage for a while and then booom you go down, unless I didn’t manage to dodge you until then. Also, those condition builds you got are a kitten when played right, just melts my face if I’m not careful.

If you’re playing a condi mesmer, then it’s our 12-18 seconds of pulsing resistance on one skill with a 60s cd. If you’re power, it’s probably a combo of two 4-5 second physical damage immunity instances of one skill on 60s cd, and then blocks. If you denied the warrior his burst, that also cut his healing down by 2/3.

Adrenal health happened. That we have resistance for days helps the condi issue you were having, and some of the builds you were probably fighting got some shaves.

Dolothane.4306:

Like I said, I am swapping quite often, taking almost full advantage of fast hands. If I’m not getting the benefit of Weapon Swap sigils every time because of the 9 sec CD, would it be better to use a different type of sigil? These sigils are so confusing. I have no idea what would be best.

Yeah, the same two sigils share their cd, so you can’t get the benefit a second time until that CD has passed, even if you have the same sigil on two different sets.

Since the CD is 9s and you can swap to your second set and back to your original set (with Leaching) in 10s, there isn’t a good case for putting Leaching on both sets.

So, for warriors packing Fast Hands, never use the same on-swap sigil on both weapons.

The latter might be better. Leaching has a 9s ICD, so you only want one if you tend to swap every 5s or so.

I’m also not super knowledgeable about pve stuff, but my two bits:

1. I agree with Hoax about your rune choice. At just under 3g per Strength rune, I don’t think it’ll take you many dungeons to be able to afford them. You could stick with what you have until you have them.
2. If you’re having no trouble surviving, then feel free to stick with Discipline over Defense.
3. Burst Mastery is better for you than Heightened Reflexes, imo. You mentioned loving burst spam, and Burst Mastery couples nicely with Smash Brawler. 4s of quickness every 15s isn’t better.
4. I’d replace all of your sigils. You’ll have max might anyway most of the time (especially once you swap your runes and if you run a good food) so Strength is unnecessary, and you can do better than Fire. I’m no expert, but I’d probably put Force on both weapons, Bloodlust, and maybe Hydromancy. Hydromancy has lower base damage than Fire, but it can crit, which is awesome. Their may be better choices, but it’s better for your build than Fire if you’re swapping as often as it sounds.
5. Swapping to DotE will certainly give you more personal damage, but it may be too selfish for for groups to accept you, especially since you’ve dumped Phalanx Strength. As it is, you may get kicked from groups just because of that. If people don’t care, or the group already has lots of regen, go for it.

Good luck.

In retrospect, I wish I’d given the OP some advice on how to fare better against warriors. I hope he’s still reading the thread.

Warriors received a big buff to a passive trait called Adrenal Health not long ago, which gives us a huge amount of regen that can’t be stripped and lasts 15s. To maintain permanent uptime, we just need to land a single burst skill before the time is up.

What you want to do is deny us that burst. If you can do that, you put a major dent in our sustain, cutting our regen/heal by 66% (depending on the build of the warrior).

How you do that depends on your build, the warrior’s build, your build, and your ability to recognize when the burst is coming.

For example, most warriors run melee, which means they have to get close to you to land a burst, otherwise they have to smack your pet. If you build for it (e.g. staff/lb, staff/gs, lb/gs druid), you have a boatload of tools to keep your distance and otherwise make landing a burst difficult (mobility, stealth, cc, blind, evades, dodge, etc).

If you keep your distance, attack from range, and then reposition when the warrior gets close, the warrior’s going to blow all sorts of skills (defenses and offensive skills tied to mobility) just to get to you. That’s going to leave him low on defense, offense, and sustain (from lack of landing Adrenal Health bursts) if he does manage to get close.

Doing this may force the warrior to burst your pet instead, which is easy to do and will give him adrenal health. But it wastes a high damage skill on your pet instead of you, which makes you safer and only buys the warrior a little more time.

If the warrior is using a longbow, you generally won’t be able to deny the warrior his burst. Basically, he just needs to hit the ground with it and he’ll get it, whether he hits someone or not. The good news is, your ranged options are better because the warrior longbow sucks at range (can be lethal up close) and it has no defense or mobility, so stick with the above strategy and you should be fine.

Best of luck.

If this actually gets adopted, then I demand space lasers and hoverboards! I mean, if we’re already blowing up wvw, why the hell not?

And, no, the current rifle/pistol skins and the magic carpet aren’t nearly close enough. In fact, throw in a time travelling Delorian while you’re at it, please.

ADTempys.6382:

Eh what about removing all warrior’s weapons

The new Fisticuffs specialization?

New shouts: “Put up your dukes!”, “Come at me, bro!”, “Look how ripped I am!”
New elite shout: “I have the POWWWWWWEERRRRRRRRRRR!!!” (Battle Cat not included)

@JDjitsu
The Adrenal Health buff was within the last year, and that was big for us. Then there were other things that helped us a bunch like changes to stability, the boon duration stuff, etc.

I also don’t think we’re getting a huge number of calls for nerfs (it was way worse in the old days). But I think people get understandably frustrated when they can’t make a dent against an opponent that still seems to hit like a truck.

Straegen.2938:

The build just isn’t that effective in actual game play. Scrubs should be scared of it but pretty much every one else sees it coming a mile away and knows how to deal with it.
…
If we are looking at risk/reward builds, several are way in front of Staff thief.

Vault’s a weapon skill, not a build, and it’s overtuned (risk:reward is way too high). And there’s no line… someone started a thread about Vault, so that’s what’s being discussed.

Straegen.2938:

In a vacuum you would be right… the skill reads like beastmode. However the skill doesn’t live in a vacuum. Thieves in a “fair” fight are easy to fend off or outright kill. The outcome of Vault for a thief just doesn’t live up to its paper stats. If Vault were so beastly it would be wrecking good players with regularity without needing a handicap. As it is now, it takes superior skill to make it even remotely deadly against an average player outside of hitting them while they are hurt or at some other disadvantage. The same can be said for something like Gunflame as well.

Man, I’m not sure how to explain it any more clearly to you. I’m not talking about “in a vacuum” or “on paper”, I’m talking about actual fights. I’ve repeatedly clarified that Vault’s not the most broken thing in the game, only that the risk:reward is way off.

I’ve also called out Gunflame, twice in this thread and repeatedly since it’s been introduced. I even provided the specific context in which Gunflame is a problem, though it’s less of a problem now than it used to be.

You seem to think Vault is fine. I say Vault carries bad players, allowing them to punch way above their weight.

I can get behind that. Seem like reasonable shaves and buffs to me.

Swedemon.4670:

I agree with OP. I think a small 5 man team should engage the structure in order to contest the waypoint. 1 man for white swords. This promotes havoc teams and still does not require a full zerg to do the job.

Terrible idea. And it doesn’t promote havoc either, unless you mean because people will feel compelled to group up to five.

You’re basically calling for a system whereby you can determine risk of losing a structure just from looking at the map. White swords on our keep but waypoint is clear? No problem… just ignore it unless it stays for several minutes. Then waypoint in and kill whoever figured they’d try to take it whenever you feel like it.

If you want to keep your waypoint, then you should give up your white swords.

As a roamer, I’d be more than happy for this change to occur but white swords on upgraded then also CAN’T be triggered by fewer than five people.

Then, when I’ve taken your upgraded structure and you’ve had no warning, we can come back to the post on this forum that’ll inevitably follow.

Could be they were traps from more than one person/class, but only one of them stuck around to stomp any hapless victim who stepped in them.

Threather.9354:

Once i dodged 3 times the staff 5 and the thief died because he had no initiative left and he got 1 shot cuz zerk gear ftw.
Plz, buff thief.

He didn’t know that he also had dodges and other defenses? That’s weird…. Cool story, bro.

Straegen.2938:

I get the complaints from scrubs but no decent player can say with a straight face the most dangerous build they run into is a Staff thief. Annoying when they hit and run I will give you but most dangerous? Come on…

That’s the thing, I’ve already said that I (and I think most people who’ve commented here) don’t think Vault is the most broken thing in the game, and I wouldn’t say a vault spamming thief is the most dangerous build either.

My point, and my only point, has been that the risk:reward ratio seems far off from what’s reasonable. 10-11k is a truckload of damage to deliver in a single hit (not the most in the game, but still a lot), and being able to drop three of those in succession for aoe damage and evade on 66% of the cast time seems borked to me.

Remember as well that, while I think Vault needs a shave (and would like to see stealth stacking ended), I also think Thief (especially base) could use some sweet lovin’ to boost its effectiveness elsewhere.

Straegen.2938:

Duels often involve several resets on both sides particularly when stealth is involved. They typically operate more like bull fighting than a cage match.

Well, I’ve clocked a lot of duels by this point, including against thieves, and not once has one of my dueling partners reset the fight, afaik. If it happened more than once, I doubt I’d continue dueling them since that’s cheap as hell and totally avoidable. (Remember: resetting isn’t gaining space and healing up, it’s resetting your health pool by disengaging far enough to be considered out of combat).

Straegen.2938:

Sure a thief can Vault spam three shots in a row… then a decent thief will clip him as soon he starts to run. Thieves cannot fight mindlessly like what is being portrayed here without getting blown up.

Because thieves are practically the only class that can catch another thief who’s determined to get away, particularly when the opponents skills are on cd. Vault has a range of 600 with an evade frame, and a thief has more than that to get away.

Vault’s pretty mindless from what I’ve seen with no real skill required. If warriors could spam Earthshaker three times in a row, then use mobility to get away if it doesn’t land, then come back again, people would be salty about it. Vault’s like that, but does far more damage and no cc. Of course, Earthshaker can be interrupted at any point until it lands, blinded, etc., and is negated by stability and stunbreaks.

Straegen.2938:

As the numbers on both sides go up a thieves chance for victory goes down. The thief is primarily an advantage class so yes two thieves fighting one player is at a massive advantage… so is every other class in the game.

Oh, I’m not saying 2v1 situations… I mean, assuming equal skill, 2 should beat 1 most of the time. I’m saying two vault spam thieves in a small group fight (say 5 people on each side) can do a tremendous amount of damage without putting themselves in any real danger and without having any real skill.

As a point of comparison, dagger (and even sword) thieves can be very lethal in those situations too, but they face greater danger and present a narrower threat. Vault spammers are like the aforementioned gunflamers shooting into the melee from a safe distance, but add the ability to kite anybody if they picked up focus.

Straegen.2938:

And still others continually point out the massive tell it has and the fact it is easy to interrupt. Vault has holes… big giant holes. It even has a particularly nasty after cast that allows for big shots to crack it and prevents Vaults from being immediately chained together to hit different locations.

It has a 1/4 second “hole”, right? That’s not really giant…. I mean, most skills don’t have evades built into them at all, and skills that do that sort of damage normally have a fully interuptable 3/4s channel. And that aftercast isn’t so much of a threat when your opponent is still recovering from their dodge to avoid the 10k hit.

Let’s keep it real here… I don’t think anyone has said Vault is the most broken thing in the game, but there aren’t a lot of skills that sort of spammable damage that are so forgiving.

I’m with Cygnus on this, personally. Reduce the power scaling or base damage and otherwise leave the skill alone. It hits way too hard for a no cooldown and no-setup skill with a built-in evade, especially for a class that’s swimming in evades and escape options.

Straegen.2938:

Staff is strong when Vault is primed in an attack chain but if a player keeps dying to Vault spam it is a training issue. We see it in duels… Vault spamming is weak play and cannot beat decently played small scale meta builds.

Most thieves die a lot mainly to other thieves and team composition but accept that as part of roaming. Other players from other classes get killed by some Vault spam and think it is OP because they mistakenly believe every build should be able to fight evenly with every other build.

The thief does two things well. Travels fast and kills players quick during an advantage (zerglings, wounded players, lessor skilled players, numbers advantage). Pretty much everything else a thief gets wrecked… and most thieves accept it. Changing that would mean Guardians should no longer dominate group play or Tempests should no longer be able to anchor skirmish play.

Except duels don’t mirror what I’m talking about. You’re generally not able to reset a fight or go far out of range in a duel if you run out of gas, otherwise people stop dueling you.

You don’t have that restriction in wvw. You can just spam away, and then retreat for a bit just to try again when you’re ready. In a small group scenario, especially with two vault spammers, it’s not going to take any skill to clip a few people with 10k vaults.

So I’m not entirely clear about the argument you’re making here. I’m saying risk should match reward, and that vault seems somewhat off on that balance. Some people have identified the built-in evade, others the initiative cost, and others the damage.

You seem to be saying none of that matters because thief gets pinched in other areas of the game and, at least when dueling, vault spamming isn’t terribly effective. Have I misunderstood what you’re saying, because this perspective just doesn’t make sense to me.

Straegen.2938:

I agree the thief needs adjustments but Vault isn’t the problem….. However Vault requires skill to land against a decent opponent and has an exploitable vulnerability.

Speaking only from the perspective of roaming in wvw, I disagree.

I’ve regularly come across players who basically spam vault to attack and then use it (along with other abilities) to escape if they aren’t successful initially and need to regroup their initiative.

It doesn’t take a lot of skill to land a vault, and there’s not much consequence to just spamming it. Even if your opponent avoids it most of the time, landing a 10k crit without putting yourself in any real jeopardy is a pretty easy ride. Put two vault spammers in the mix with slightly offset vaults, and it’s pretty silly.

Though it’s somewhat less of a problem than it used to be, I feel the same way about gunflame when used in medium to large scale groups. It supports a risk-free pew-pew style that doesn’t seem particularly good for the game.

I’m a proponent of reward being balanced with risk. If you never have to put yourself in any danger, then your damage output should be fairly low (and vice versa). Skill should be the mitigator there, meaning a player who explodes his or her opponent without breaking a sweat should only be able to do so through their own competence.

It was certainly the case as far back as when Rousing Resilience was first introduced. I don’t recall if it was ever patched, but it was certainly brought up a bunch.

If it was patched, I guess it’s been reverted. But I don’t actually think they changed it to follow the tool tip.

@straegen I’m all for nerfing things that are overtuned and buffing where needed. There’s no conflict between wanting to shave vault while also wanting to see the class get some love to improve value elsewhere.

Depends entirely on how much power you have before you start stacking on the extra might.

Iirc, each might gives you 30 power and 30 condi damage. There’s a linear relationship between power and damage, so if you have 2500 power before the extra might, then you’ll need 4-5 might before you gain the (rough) equivalent of 5%.

I say rough equivalent because (1) might gets more valuable the more you’re also applying damaging condis (bleeds, etc), and (2) the straight 5% from force becomes more valuable the more damage modifiers you have in your build (like crit, Berserker Power, Stick and Move, Destruction of the Empowered, etc). The reason the number of modifiers matter is because they stack.

PS is a support build.

That aside, you made a number of claims about weapons that a few of us seem to think you’re wrong about. So we commented about that.