Guild Wars 2

On topic, I regularly avoid stomping people who are obviously new to fighting real people or the game mode. I’ve also pulled them aside for duels and to give them advice on how to play better.

We need new people to stay in wvw, and the early learning curve (and resulting frustration) can be harsh. I’m also more interested in better fights than whatever garbage they’ll drop if I kill them.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

tbh Ive seen more berserkers take thieves out than the other way around. Maybe there are a lot of bad thieves out there or maybe there are bad berserkers but this is what I have noticed.

The changes to Headbutt, Shield Bash, and Arc Divider should tip that scale. We’ll have to see, but those increased telegraphs and slowed burst give thieves more breathing room to work with.

Just treat it like Shield Mastery. No need to specify weapons for the might.

“Gain might on critical hits. Greatsword and spear skills deal more damage and recharge faster.”

I meant more that defenders should read the map when considering what to do based on your calculations.

For example, during a 20 min defense, it’s often a good idea to have a couple of roamers go out to flip the camps immediately behind the attackers to limit their source of supply. Taking other camps and towers with just a handful of people won’t detract from defense by much, but it will give you points for each tick while you’re defending the keep that you wouldn’t otherwise get.

Finally, when it comes to defending a keep, you need to consider whether or not you’ll be able to successfully defend, or even how long you can delay, and then weigh that potentially lost cause against more productive things that you could have otherwise done.

I think what you’ve done already is about as far as one would want to take the math. Good job.

It should be easier for you post-patch:

1. Headbutt is now easier to dodge, and that’s one of the primary ways warriors set you up for a burst.
2. The stability from Eternal Champion is going from pulsing to a 3 stacks on entering berserk mode. Just keep corrupting boons as much as you can.
3. Skull Grinder is had it’s damage cut by 33%, though not in wvw (yet)
4. The spamability of the same burst has been decreased

So focus on corrupting boons, try to keep him blinded, try to keep him at range, and, if you see him do a backflip, dodge/block. The further away you are, the easier it’ll be to do that in time.

Also, don’t hit keep hitting him while he’s blocking. I often turn into reapers when they do that whirly scythe thing when I’m blocking because it gives me might with each hit.

Helpful information. Thanks for that.

One would also need to factor in the opportunity cost of defending vs retaking camps and structures that have been flipped. Meaning, if you have a lot of heat on a keep, people should figure how many resources (time, people, etc) should be devoted to defending that keep based on how ugly the rest of the map looks (and the other maps too).

babazhook.6805:

Understood , but the warrior recieved boosts WvW to underused skills as well in WvW. The nerfs to P vP tend to follow into WvW on the next patch iteration. Added reveals to other classes is in fact a nerf to thief.

As to the warrior specifically I do play a couple of builds and think all of the ones made justified outside the shield one which I am ambivalent on. I do think the range on arc divider needs to be cut (I would remove the shield cast time add and cut arc divider range to 300) The headbutt change is fine. It still a powerful skill with a 20 second cooldown.

Just FYI I do NOT use shield in either of my warrior builds and do use headbutt.

The thief nerfs that applied to PvP do enough to shave the thief to a needed place and I suspect we will see them in WvW soon.

I tend to read all of your posts and am in agreement with much of what you say. Unlike so many others it not all “Anet hates my class and class YYY the spoiled brats” type which quite frankly I do not find much worth reading . The person might make some good points but it lost in the presentation.

The axe buffs will help in duels, but I’ve not seen nor figured out a way to capitalize on them while roaming (I find mobility just too important now).

I’d like to see the AD change reverted in favour of cutting the range, as you noted, though I’d favour cutting it to 250 or less. I’d also favour reverting the Headbutt change in favour of cutting the damage by 1/3 (make it a 2x power scale instead of 3x) and increasing the CD. Shield bash change should be reverted completely.

I’d let that ride for a bit, and then see if the warrior still seemed overtuned on sustain. As it stands, it feels like the warrior is fairly easily outplayed because it isn’t enough of a threat during the period when it has stances off CD and/or access to berserk mode. That might be a matter of innovating and getting used to the changes, but I think it might be a bit more than that. Time will tell.

And yeah, there’s way too much anguish over these changes. Then again, I’ve played warrior during periods when it was truly in the trash heap, and we’re still stronger now than we were then. As for thief, I’m reeeeealllly looking forward to those nerfs being moved to wvw.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Its def no secret that there are unbalanced classes in the game, however as someone who started out as a noob teef about 2-3 months ago I can say that if a thief makes a mistake, its always fatal so there’s very little “forgiveness” unless the opponent(s) don’t catch it (in which the opponent is part blame).

I just don’t see it like that anymore. Used to be true, but not any more.

For example, it used to be that you might be able to lock a thief down with immobilize or with a well timed stun (after baiting out Hard to Catch and Shadow Step). Now immobilize is removed on dodge (and there are more dodges than ever) and, in addition to the aforementioned stun defenses, you’ve got Bandit’s Defense on a 15s cd.

When you combine the ability to not be held down with the amount of easy mobility available to the class (through teleporting, movement speed, movement skills), stealth, and evades built into high damage skills, it makes for very forgiving builds that very low skill players can get a lot of mileage on. Combine that with melee and medium range options on most builds, and that’s a big toolkit.

That doesn’t mean no thieves have skill (obviously), nor that thieves will win every fight. But I regularly fight thieves who eat nearly every burst I put out (I play zerk gear warrior, have some really obvious tells), yet they can squeeze a lot of do-overs into that fight that isn’t a product of skill.

Like I said before, I see how thief is kitten in other areas. That’s why I’d support buffing the thief in some respects while also doing things to address issues like unparalleled escape potential and either reducing the reward (damage) in small scale or increasing the risk.

EDIT: I do know that other classes have their own issues that need to be addressed, including stuff that really bones thieves. I don’t think warriors pose much of a threat to thieves anymore post-patch, but others do, sure.

Turk.5460:

Someone even got so salty earlier to rudely PM me in game (then blocked me immediately before I could say “k”)

Lmao. Oh man, that’s super lame, and I’m pretty sure grounds to have their warrior license revoked.

Well, speaking only about small scale and 1v1 in wvw, I find thief has way too much forgiveness to it. It’s no longer a matter of highly skilled people being able to pull off dramatic wins through a high risk:high reward playstyle. It now allows average and low skill players to recover from countless mistakes to eventually win through attrition.

As a point of comparison, people used to complain a lot about Nike warriors in the same way. The current incarnation of daredevil puts the old Nike warrior to shame in terms of mobility, but also has far more cheesy build options and requires much less in terms of sacrifices or tradeoffs.

For example, a standard d+p/sb thief has way more in and out of combat mobility than the old Nike warrior, way more burst, way more defense potential, the same old control over fight initiation that always caused salt to be thrown at thieves, and then loads of burst.

So I get the salt from that perspective, but I can’t deny the limitations of the class in other contexts. I’d personally like to see the thief to be evened out with other classes in small scale and simultaneously buffed to expand its usefulness in other aspects of the game.

Who do you hope is your audience is here? Posting this in the thief forum is a bit like going to a church and asking why some people aren’t keen on Jesus.

Sly.9518:

Aury.1367:

Look at WvW: Thief got ALL the boosts, but the nerfs were PvP only. Its even worse here. Thanks for screwing up again.

You mean the same with all the buffs and Nerfs this patch?

Not the case for warrior. The most significant nerfs were universal. A couple of others were pvp only

martin.1653:

Oh no, could it be that a slow moving projectile at less-than-desirable-range does 2.5k crit damage?
WHO BROKE THIS GAME?

Who broke your reading comprehension?

nicknamenick.2437:

Hanth.2978:

Anet you guys screwed the pooch on this one, never ever increase skill time animation. Playing warrior now just feels slow, good players could spot the tell with our moves but now everyone does. Yes, warriors needed a nerf that much was certain but to give us skill lag is ridiculous.

Decrease skill damage by x amount, increase cd of a skill or hell shave some hp off of us. Those are nerfs that make sense and don’t go against the fundamentals that guild wars 2 prides itself on.

Or decrease its aoe range like every player warrior or not even metioned..
Shield bash got buffed 1 year ago or something from 1 to 2 sec stun. And now they increase its casttime? Why not revert to 1 sec stun like the skill bas been for 4 years before that.
Headbut was indeed crazy good. Cant deny that.. but what cares for pve? Split it.

I agree with both of you. Berserker was certainly due for some nerfs, but reduced damage, increased cool downs, and reduced range (for AD) would have been easier for them to implement, less disruptive, and easier to fine tune.

As Nusku said. Beyond that, the nerfs that occurred likely won’t have any bearing on the advice in the leveling guides.

Cool. Thanks for that.

Sly.9518:

To get over 1.2k PI they have to be running power, quite a bit with out Crit damage, and outside of P/P and Signets Might doesn’t exit on Thieves, and not so much Vuln either if all he did was shoot SB so either he was running Glass (Carrion is glass btw) or you at lying one of the two.

…or a bug. Why the hell would I lie in a post that’s not even calling for a nerf, but asking people who’d know whether or not something was normal?

And, no, he wasn’t running carrion because he wasn’t doing much in the way of condi damage.

Also, why are you focused on PI? The question’s about Choking Gas.

babazhook.6805:

And daredevils received nerfs.

They actually got a buff for wvw, since the nerfs were all pvp only and the buffs were universal. That said, those nerfs aren’t in the areas I mentioned.

Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not personally calling for nerfs. I was just responding to Turk’s comment about thieves vs warriors and pointing out the justification for warrior nerfs was no stronger than more significant nerfs to thieves that are still needed (for small scale).

Sly.9518:

The fact that you took damage and substantial amount of hits from Pulm is very telling justsaying

It was one hit attached to Choking Gas in the combat log, it wasn’t poison damage, and he wasn’t glass.

I’m not familiar enough with thief to know what sort of might and vuln stacking are possible, but he was lazily shooting his shortbow (so not a lot of might on crit), and I think he was playing d/p otherwise.

I don’t think he was glass because I was doing about half to 2/3 the damage to him that I’d do to a normal glass thief, and I didn’t have weakness (no glancing, etc).

Anyway, I’m not complaining about the skill or anything. It just seemed the combat log number doesn’t match the damage listed in the wiki. Sometimes extra (or less) damage gets done by one bug or another. Thought this might be one of those times.

Dear Den of Dirty Thieves, (jk, jk)

I wish I’d screen capped this , but last night my combat log showed that I took 2500 from Choking Gas (impact, not poison). The thief I was fighting wasn’t glass, and it was just him vs me in the fight, so no opportunity to get party buffed. I have (maybe) 2500 armor or so.

Looking at the wiki (which appears to be updated since patch), I wouldn’t think the skill would be able to hit that hard. Could this be a bug of some sort, or is it plausible through traits, etc.?

As I said, he definitely wasn’t running glass.

Turk.5460:

@Choppy: The difference is Thieve’s defenses are entirely active. And if they mess up once, they’re usually a goner or have to completely disengage. If anything else messes up, they have many more chances to continue fighting and still win. Thats the tradeoff that a ton of people just can’t grasp the concept of. We can continue this discussion on the thief forums if you’d like.

I’d happily trade every passive defense warrior has, most of which can be procced out and rendered useless, for all of the active options the daredevil has.

As for being a goner if the daredevil screws up, if that were still true I wouldn’t say they were due for nerfs. As I said, I’m regularly fighting daredevils who are eating practically every burst I put out and there’s plenty of forgiveness for them to work with to recover. A good thief shouldn’t eat every burst I put out, especially since I usually run vanilla warrior.

It seems to me that thief is in a similar place to what mesmers saw a year ago (condi and power). Everyone assumed it’s strong potential (at the time) was counterbalanced by a need for high skill (i.e. high risk:high reward), but it actually reached a place of low risk:high reward.

As mentioned, I’m only talking about small scale and 1v1 at the moment. I’m also not saying thief is without counters, or that every fight is easy mode. But the case for nerfs to daredevil in small scale fights is at least as strong as the case for berserker nerfs.

Turk.5460:

Update: I just read in a thread on the thief forum where you mentioned you believe thieves are “stupidly OP.” Now I know for sure that you shouldn’t be engaging in 1v1 duels until you learn more aspects of GW2.

While you and I generally agree that berserker nerfs were generally called for (though maybe slightly different than what Anet went with), daredevils have way to many forgiving builds to work with in small scale and 1v1 scenarios.

Seriously, I’m in fights all the time with people who eat just about every burst, but the mobility, stealth, evades, and other defenses against being locked down that are available allows the class to easily cover for some seriously bad play. And there’s a diversity of builds that allow for this.

Just saying that daredevils are due for some nerfs themselves.

Eh, AD range should be cut, cast time should be restored, and the lower range AD would still give you the higher power scaling and spamability that AS lacks (which is better than the Fury AS provides, that is largely not needed by the Berserker).

That spamability also (currently) brings 3x the condi clear and potential for Adrenal Health uptime. Berserker Power too, if you’re running Strength (which most don’t, of course).

joneirikb.7506:

Make it a sport, teach all your roamers, to pretend to “lone roamers caught off guard”, and make bets on who can lead them around the longest. Much fun to be had, when the commander realize that single “roamer” just baited him around the entire borderland once.

I enjoy leading them off cliffs to their deaths. My record so far is a 5min me v 10 chase that ended with half of them dying before the other half realized that gravity was my friend and not theirs.

I also enjoy when people with the whole “red is dead” mentality roll up intent on disrupting peaceful duels only to have their kitten handed to them.

Edit: That “kitten’s” name is “Have a Nice Day”

All fluff aside, it sounds like you just want to be able to take the gs, axe, and berserker power traits. Amirite?

Why not just say that?

No counterplay? You know you have your own weapon skills and whatnot, right? Also, Hardened Gates?

Finally, if they’re beating down your door with weapon skills, you have some time to call in help or figure out a solution to your problem… it’s not that hard. If it’s that they outnumber you by a lot, well, that’s a pretty good reason for them to win the fight, isn’t it?

Gambino.2109:

Because in Raids.. you want to be as efficient as you can.. if people mess up every second that you pour out can make the difference. Being slow does not help with that

The bit of his comment that I was referring to was when he said berserker (before this patch) needed a damage buff.

While I understand the desire for efficiency in pve, I don’t understand all of the anguish over what represents a fairly minor hit to dps there. Specifically, some cast times that have been lengthened by 1/4 second and a slightly increased CD on primal bursts.

I can understand pvp and wvw being thrown by the impact to their timings and the extra work now needed in fights, but even there they weren’t unreasonable nerfs (I wouldn’t have touched shield bash, personally, but whatevs).

daw.4923:

Choppy.4183:

Are you talking about pve where things just sit still and eat damage? If so, what does it matter if you don’t contribute an equal amount to whatever damage sponges you’re trying to kill?

In pvp/wvw though, no, berserker didn’t (and doesn’t) need a damage buff.

ofc im talking about fractals/raids/dungs and pve in general,no1 is playing pvp or wvw geez.. that train is away like 2 years

Which brings us back to the first question. Why does your personal dps even matter?

abaddon.3290:

im not in game but you mentioned the 1k toughness stun break skill as if every warrior slots it. so what do you get rid of and still survive in this meta to take that.

Those are from two traits, not skills. Rousing Resilience for the heal and 1k toughness on stun break, and Savage Instinct for the stun break (and condi removal) on entering Berserk mode.

abaddon.3290:

im curious how your supposed to survive. if you take that skill and drop unblockable signet your going to get rekt by dh and mesmers. if you get rid of your resistance your going to get rekt by every condi class. if you take it instead of endure pain you no longer have decent sustain against power. so im curious what your going to slot and why? everyone likes to complain as if warrior has all skills active at once.

Which skill? The only one I mentioned was Headbutt plus two traits. Those don’t compete with utility skills

daw.4923:

if you look at dps of all classes,you will find out that power war needed BUFF and not NERF. powerfull synergy is trash and its useless.

Are you talking about pve where things just sit still and eat damage? If so, what does it matter if you don’t contribute an equal amount to whatever damage sponges you’re trying to kill?

In pvp/wvw though, no, berserker didn’t (and doesn’t) need a damage buff.

zectra.6978:

If it’s red. It’s dead. You think there is mercy in war? I give no quarter when I lead.

You’re playing a video game, sport. You’re not at war.

Plautze.6290:

Funny enough that headbutt had an in-built nerf by stunning the attacker as well for 1sec. It’s actually the only elite skill that has a real drawback. On the other hand, there seem to be classes that have only lackluster elite skills… okay, I get it

You’re kidding, right? It’s a non existent drawback if you trait to break stun on entering berserk, and it’s an opportunity to get a quick heal and 1k toughness if you trait it with RR. If you use it to break a stun too, there’s 5k healing, toughness bonus, a stunned target, and you ready to unleash holy hell.

The self stun is an opportunity, not a drawback.

While I’m not saying I necessary agree with all of the nerfs, the amount of QQ about them fits to show how little people realized they were crutching on cheese. It’s like when condi mesmers cried when PU was cut from +100% stealth to +50%.

(I saw what you did at the end of the quoted bit though, so I know you aren’t QQing yourself)

Headbutt makes sense (same reason other movement skills don’t work with quickness), but Arc Divider doesn’t.

daw.4923:

how was shield bash and headbutt OP? both with 20+ sec cd,extremly ez to miss with MEGA OBVIOUS animation, even arc was hard to land vs competent players….,now with 1 sec precast and EP for 2 sec.. nerf heal again … season 1 warrior comming to pvp.

A half second cast time on a skill with that much stun, that much damage, a stun break , and full adrenaline gain on a 20s CD was stupidly broken. It’s still stronk.

I’d gladly pay 500-1000 rank points from the pile of unused points I have now just to get an extra +5 supply though. I’d pay the same amount again for an extra 10% damage to gates and walls.

Anything to reduce the tedium, tbh.

Lol, we were the slowest class? You know, between this and your other posts about warrior speed, you’ve greatly undermined any legitimate points you have on the subject by exaggerating the scale and scope of the problem.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I find that Basi venom is blockable / stability can negate it (Aegis and warriors shield blocks it, always thought it was unblock-able and went through stab)

Basi absolutely beats warrior shield 5… happens to me all the time. I strongly recommend you run Bandit’s and keep it ready in case you screw up and eat a Headbutt (or get shield bashed and expect a Headbutt to follow).

BD has a better cd than Headbutt, and that’s the skill that’s leading to your 2-3 move death (whenever that happens). If you get caught with it, just the damage from it can take 40-50% of your health, and then the pain train will start.

No, not necessarily.

Pvp certainly lends itself to learning how to fight, but (1) moderate players can get those finishers through grinding, (2) there are differences in wvw vs pvp (larger terrain, more busted stuff, and fight sizes are often larger than pvp, even for a roamer).

That said, it honestly comes down to practice and aptitude in fights, and where you get them is less of an issue than how many you’ve had, imo. If someone has killed thousands of people in pvp, much of that experience is going to be transferable (and vice versa).

Also, roaming isn’t just about winning roughly even fights.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Shaves are definitely needed to Berserker but Defy Pain is also a huge offender here. I regularly slot Sundering Mace or Armored Attack and you really notice not having that safety net. You can just face tank damage to 50% and, if you’ve recently landed a burst, heal right back to full by the time Defy Pain wears off. Then you still have your manual Endure Pain and probably a Shield Stance as well which can make it really tedious to get a Warrior below 50% health.

Maybe my suggestion isn’t the proper way to adjust it but I feel that something should be done to reduce the effectiveness of this particular trait. It allows me to win far more fights than I should when I do decide to take it.

Well, it used to proc at 25%, but that made it possible to kill the warrior outright without triggering the trait if damage was high enough (which means often in this post-HoT world).

The reason I don’t think it’s that much of a problem if you go with the other nerfs I mentioned is it’s got a 60s CD on it and only lasts kitten with no protection against cc, condi, or life steal.

Those nerfs would pinch the sustain on that specific build you mentioned by making the warrior have to work way harder to maintain Adrenal Health (shorter range on AD, plus you’d need to land three primal bursts every 15s to keep it maxed instead of one).

So, if Defy Pain procced, someone could stay just out of melee range until it ended and then resume. The warrior wouldn’t return to life in the interim unless they did a great job managing bursts (in which case, they’d deserve it).

As a point of comparison, how strong do you feel running a m+sh/gs vanilla warrior? Sure, it can be effective, but it’s not nearly as forgiving and it has lots of room to be counter played. The changes I mentioned would bring the berserker version much closer to the vanilla version, but still keep it slightly better.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I used to not think Berserker was that bad but after playing it… Just wow. The faceroll is so real. Adrenal Health and the massive amounts of damage you can pump out carry so hard. I also think that Defy Pain needs to be reduced to proc’ing at 20% health because I’ve tried not using it and it makes a gigantic difference. If you haven’t tried before and you play Warrior, I urge you to try some fights without that passive safety net and tell me how much of a difference it makes.

Indeed, most people don’t realize just how big the difference between vanilla and berserker is when it comes to sustain and offense.

That said, your recommended change to Defy Pain isn’t the way to go. Instead, the surgical nerfs needed to Berserker are:

1. Increase the CD on Headbutt by 5-10s (start with 5s)
2. Decrease the power scaling on Headbutt (from 3x to 2x)
3. Decrease the range of Arc Divider (from 450 to 150-180)
4. Count primal bursts as 1 bar of adren rather than 3

The above represents a substantial offense and defense hit to Berserker without touching vanilla, it still keeps Berserker slightly more powerful than vanilla, and Berserker would still be viable.

That said, in fairness, some other classes should get similar shaves to deal with the cheese they’re able to dish.

To clarify on my earlier point and, iirc, it goes back to when they didn’t want speed buffs to extend the distance traveled with skills like gs5, etc. To do that, they made it so the velocity of the character is a fixed number, that way it wouldn’t matter if you had quickness (or cripple), you would always go the same distance over the course of the channel time.

That made it so quickness reduced the distance traveled because it learned channel time, but increased the distance when slowed.

It sucked.

Iirc, when quickness used to interact with our skills, it reduced the distance traveled due to math. I’d rather have what we have now.

Feanor.2358:

Nevertheless, it is (or at least, should be) true. Roaming have always felt like a pretty bad PvP. It’s basically the same, except there are no clear goals and there’s no guarantee the team sizes are equal.

Large scale combat, on the other hand, is where WvW potential really shines.

That’s what makes roaming interesting, and why I personally prefer it to pvp. There’s a lot more variation and, yes, broken stuff that you can encounter

I’ve been playing wvw almost exclusively for several years, and I find the large scale combat boring as hell. It’s also not conducive to mastering a class.

Wvw is like a pvp sandbox with pve content in it. The large scale stuff came to dominate because it was effective, not because of preordained purpose.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Also turns you in to a Salmon if they get you while you’re already in the water.

Then you have to watch out for bears? XD

While getting double moa’d after a condi bomb is almost sure death, as a public service announcement, remember that water ends the moa prematurely.

So if you’re near water, take a bath and go back to killin’.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

I am fully aware how to beat them but the regen was with out t3 heal because as s/d thief the build and play style relys on constant Presure with aa/flanking strike and postioning. Double endura pain/sheild and mace block was enough time to stop dmg to regen with out using a burst. Ofc it was a different story when I went and changed to d/p

But if he wasn’t landing his burst then his heal was only 460/s, minus poison uptime (if any). A thief should be able to put out far more damage pressure than that. In fact, I know they can because, before the boost to Adrenal Health, warriors (Berserkers included) were seen as too lacking in sustain to be competitive (especially in upper level pvp).

Also, if you were using melee (and it sounds like you were), the mace block will only stop one attack. Which means it has practically no more sustain than all the other x+sh/gs builds out there, and a sword thief is more than capable of grinding those down, especially if you’re skilled enough to deny the burst.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w

The trick to beating that is not letting him land a burst. So either get in and get out before he can land a headbutt followed by a burst, or just range him with your shortbow.

I know it seems stupid, but if you keep him at range you’ll cut his healing by 2/3 because he won’t have Adrenal Health going. Adding poison to the mix will drop another 1/3 from his remaining healing for as long as it’s on him and resistance isn’t up.

When he’s reflecting your shortbow back at you, just focus on keeping distance until his block is up. Also, if you notice him getting a heal whenever he breaks a stun, stop cc’ing him altogether.

You can’t pull off the above in pvp, but you can in Wvw.

Well, let’s at least agree that it’s not as though both can’t be nerfed. I main warrior and yet fully support an increased CD and decreased damage on Headbutt.

The issues coro is raising about Basilisk Venom are independent of Headbutt.

babazhook.6805:

Headbutt , just as example, has a 3 second stun , a 20 second cooldown and can hit for 10k in damage against squishies on its own. A followup attack not needed. I just do not see your issue.

He’s already explained it. In the case of Headbutt, he can block, dodge, or blind it to mitigate. Basilisk doesn’t offer the same opportunity due to its unblockability combined with stealth and teleport mechanics, and that it isn’t consumed unless it hits. That’s his issue with it… the lack of avoidance options.