Guild Wars 2

Warlord.9074:

Last stand is a terrible trait choice in conjunction with no stun breaks besides EP. Might be ok in 1v1 vs classes without CC. WvW is not 1v1.

Are you thinking of Rousing Resilience? Because LS adds stability (and a stun break) to his build that he wouldn’t otherwise have. The other options are worse, in that regard.

In any case, I’ve been using LS with just EP (and DF) as stunbreaks otherwise for two years or so (roaming), and it works fine.

Adrenal Health trait plus Healing Signet, which most warriors run.

Here’s how to counter it: don’t let the warrior land his F1 burst, and throw poison on him for good measure. It’ll cut that healing down to well under 1/3. Just denying the burst is enough to bring it down to 1/3 (i.e. just the Healing Signet going).

If you notice him getting health back after you land a stun or daze, he’s traited Rousing Resilience. Stop stunning him.

I don’t get the anguish here. I mean, why are these skins so important to people?

Hatred of pve grind pretty much precludes my from picking up legendaries, and I don’t give it any real thought. I could actually get these new mistforged skins pretty quickly (have the T1 unlocked, 2k+ wvw rank, and several hundred tickets left over from previous tournaments), but I haven’t even decided that it’s a better look than the scrubby stuff I have now.

Is it just the exclusivity of having something that most other people don’t have? Because, if that’s the case, that’s precisely why the gate should be high like it is.

No, you couldn’t before either. It’s always been 1s cast with a 3/4s evade in the middle of it. The function and animation hasn’t changed since launch, just the damage and the effect of movement buffs and impairments.

Lag can certainly affect that timing, but there’s always been brief vulnerability in the maneuver you’re taking about. Then again, dodging twice doesn’t give you unbroken evade either.

Thanks for the Thief main perspective, babazhook. The trouble there is that a build loaded with physicals beyond Bull’s Charge isn’t going to be very viable in wvw. I could see it for a duel, maybe, but that’s about it.

That said, why wouldn’t the thief just stay up close with death blossoms and caltrops after the initial steal, and then shadowstep at the first sign of trouble, followed by shortbow from range until things mellowed out?

Thanks everyone. Seems like most people are landing on the rifle for this.

My best results have also been with the rifle, but it really requires an opponent who’s incompetent, unlucky, distracted (like a group fight when they can’t watch the killshot), or otherwise asleep at the switch for the rifle to be reliably effective.

I’m garbage with my thief, and even I can think of several tools in a standard build to manage a rifle warrior.

Still, it may be the best we’ve got for now.

I doubt it’ll ever happen.

Caedmon.6798:

Same issue here,on gs/axe they will just bomb you and kite you out as you said,but gs rifle seems to work if you time your gunflame.Other than that a good one will just toy with you on double melee unless hes bad or if you get a lucky cc burst on him.

Yeah, I thought about rifle. I think it would work better than all melee, but a good condi dd should be able to handle that pretty easily too (stay out of range, move in close for death blossom, or reflect with stolen whirling axes).

Maybe a bow-based condi berserker would do it, but I don’t play that. Can’t think of anything else though.

Has anyone found a good way to do this as a warrior yet?

I can kill the scrubbier ones, but anyone with a shred of sense knows to force out Berserker Stance, kite, and move in after that. I find the manner of damage application poor for powering up Cleansing Ire, which in turn limits condi clear even if I trait in CI.

Of course, I can just leave the fight. But they’ve got a fair bit of movement to them as well, so if I don’t bail early enough, they could catch me (unlike, for example, a condi chrono or reaper).

Has anyone found a good warrior build or playstyle to handle them in wvw?

Hepatolith.6389:

Terrahero.9358:

For this reason i carry around a pile of salt, which i then proceed to link back at them.

I usually mail them a Humiliation Dye. Far more fun imo

I send them fries to go with their salt. But it’s really rare that I do it… only for those people who can’t let a loss go.

ImNoir.5742:

Agree with play style being big factor in ranking. My wife and I have been in WvW for 1707 days on same server and rank just below 2k ^^ No ktrain, EOTM, … just defend, repair, escort, scout, hunt and kill.

I’m in a similar boat. I have about five years as a dedicated roamer and occasional havoc, and I’m sitting at about 2.1k.

I kill lots of players, I take camps and towers on my own (often so I’m impeding zergs) and the occasional keep (though usually with buddies, since pulling that off alone takes a seriously dead map).

So my time and contribution is high, but my rank is much lower than someone who would have spent half as much time at the back of a blob hitting 1-1-1-1-1-1-1.

That said, I don’t care about rewards at all, so I don’t think I’m being penalized for having played the way I wanted.

I’ve been using it along with gs to good effect. The damage pressure is very high, but I suspect some of its success is due to people being unfamiliar with the offhand axe. It’s also vulnerable to ranged pressure, obviously.

But I’ve been having fun with it, and I’m clearing camps in under 15s, sometimes with lower skilled defenders in them.

In not so sure that the devs do know. Remember when it became known that jump casting would prevent the back flip on our rifle immob? They fixed it pretty quickly.

I’m with Elodium though. Bugs should be fixed unless declared a feature.

Cerby.1069:

Choppy.4183:

@vove.2768

Out of curiosity, which build(s) are you normally playing when you get this whisper grief?

Why would you wanna know that? what does that even have to do with the OP?

Ur asking for trouble m8. No matter what you run it doesn’t justify toxic comments.

Because he’s somehow reached a block list limit that none of us even knew existed, and him running a cheesy tell build could explain that and all of the gate whispers he’s getting.

For most people this isn’t a problem.

@vove.2768

Out of curiosity, which build(s) are you normally playing when you get this whisper grief?

Cerby.1069:

funny how everyone praising the nerfs are openly praising the addition of sluggish movements and sluggish attacks.

Honestly…..I don’t know how to argue with you guys! I was always on the opposite train…advocating for more fluid movement and control over my warrior. I do think we needed nerfs in some areas, and I do think that the nerfs given do not address really any of those needed areas.

Just 2 different worlds I guess? whtever

Has anyone who plays warrior come out in favour of how they did it? Afaik, the only disagreement has been over (1) whether or not Berserker and/or Headbutt needed to be nerfed, and (2) the severity of the nerfs that occurred (from “meh” to “omfg it’s the end of the world!!11!!”).

Most people seem to be onside with the idea that borked timing and more sluggish movement wasn’t what was needed.

Alatar.7364:

\
While I can agree with most of what you said, I don’t agree with part about Evades.
People complained about that a lot, and Daredevils evades got nerfed down not only several times, but also quite ‘brutaly’ and effectively. Number of dodges a Daredevil can use now is nowhere near “OP” state. After all it is the very Idea of its Elite Spec. It got balanced quite a lot and complaining about it now would be almost the same as criticizing that a Warrior can use ‘Berserker mode’.

About the Badnit’s Defense. While that is no argument at all, I still have to say that I very rarely see Thieves use it, although I myself use it when I play Staff. On the other hand, it is true that it’s Cooldown is… ‘super low’ and I am quite surprised that it was not increased/nerfed, yet. And even though I use it aswell, the cooldown should be increased indeed.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m fine with Daredevils having the extra dodge, and with them having better endurance regen than every profession too. I was more commenting on the total package of those things, plus the evades on skills, plus traits and skills, etc. as a total package that makes thief a far cry from the “one mistake and you’re dead” sort of class that it used to be.

As for Bandit’s, I find about half of the thieves I come across run it. You don’t usually see it on the ganky d/p builds, but you’ll often find it on builds run by less competent players who also tend to use lots of evade frame skills (before, vault spammers; now, lots more dd condi builds). You find it on the occasional d/p too, but not on the best ones. Point being, it helps less skilled thieves cover for their lower skill while still being effective.

But, yeah, to be clear, I’m not calling for further nerfs to endurance or anything, though I would like to see those pvp changes pushed through to wvw.

Martym.6971:

I could understand that Choppy. But Thieves are supposed to be dirty scoundrels. And you cannot balance a class around getting away without a kill.

Yeah, but it’s also a game. To the OP’s question, the appearance of impunity isn’t good for the game, regardless of the underlying concept of a given profession.

In the old days, when people really griped about warrior mobility letting them escape from fights they were losing, the warrior had to save stances (which were on 60s cds) in order to escape cleanly from a fight. If the warrior used those stances to be more effective during the fight, then it came at the cost of being able to escape.

I’m thinking something along those lines.

Sly.9518:

All the Thieves movement skills on Weapons take over 1/3-1/2 of a Thief’s total initiative those ones don’t need an increase Initiative increases aren’t what are needed especially if they don’t make Preparedness baseline since everything is balanced on a 15 initiative pool not the 12 initiative pool, look at Infiltrator Arrow it costs 6, does no damage, doesn’t damage mitigate and is a limited range shadowstep( with plenty of bugs) whatsoever ever yet costs 1/2 base Thief initiative Pool and over 1/3 of the trained pool.

They just need to reign in alll the power creep lower all the numbers forms stats and the amoun of Boons and conditions generated per skill, this last portion is a way to mitigate the amount of lag that plagues this game especially in WvW

It was more of an offhand suggestion to deal what appears to be an overtuned ability to disengage from a fight and to try again.

I don’t know if it’s possible or even advisable, but I’d like to see thieves have no more escape/travel mobility warriors had a couple of years ago (about +33% what warriors have now), coupled with reduced escape if the thief truly engages in a fight.

Meaning, I like the idea of thieves being able to jump in and get out when things are either really hot (like a group fight, lots of aoe, etc) or if the approach into the fight fails, but still having to commit to a fight to get the win at the expense of being able to escape if they’re outplayed.

In other words, still the highest mobility in the game (just not in another league), the same great control over engagement that they have now, but increased risk if committing to a fight. I honestly don’t know how to do that, but something feels off to me on that front these days.

That said, the issue may be solved just by pushing though the pvp nerfs, as you suggested.

babazhook.6805:

Agreed but at the same time I would not consider these added mitigation abilities as a bad thing. Too many claim it means less skill. I do not entirely agree with that. Risk is being confused with skill. It sort of like saying betting on a 100 to 1 longshot to win the kentucky derby demonstrates more skill than the person who bet on the 5-4 favorite when that 100 longshot wins.

They are certainly overtuned specs across the board but it hardly as bad as those dwelling on pre-hot suggest.

Oh, I totally agree that more defense isn’t a bad thing for the class, or for the game, frankly. But I tend to prefer risk balanced with reward, and it seems to me that a few small changes could help bring that in line again for thief in small scale fights. In large scale, I have no easy answers, but thief could stand for a buff there.

I generally agree with Sly’s position on this, that some of the pvp nerfs should be pushed to wvw (which is where I spend most of my time). Maybe some additional increases to the initiative costs of some of the movement skills too.

The mechanics of thieves seem pretty good to me right now, and in many ways better than they ever have been. I’d hate to see those mechanics get nailed because, well, it feels bad, man.

Martym.6971:

You all have stated the same thing over and over again, Thief was not designed around 1v1, then given no proof otherwise. If it is how Choppy stated, and Thieves were designed around Conquest, and everything else is a fallout of it, then explain to me why he considers them sub par in Conquest. The sole thing being nodes?

Well if Thieves were designed around the ability to acquire nodes with mobility, then why are their skillset for 1v1s? You have yet to explain this. As HitIer says in Mein Kampf, “Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth”, which is exactly what you are doing making claims without proof, when Thief being the best 1v1 class is my proof.

Lol, I didn’t say anything about Conquest or how thief was designed. You see, part of your problem is you seem unable to keep track of who says what, including yourself. It’s killing your credibility.

Also, lol at fulfilling Godwin’s Law there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

babazhook.6805:

While true the thief has more mitigation methods then before and can be more forgiving of mistakes it also true that power creep has happened on the other side to the persons the thief is fighting against. Fights across the board have been extended to a degree so the “make a mistake thing” is relative. Where in the past it might have been " a thief makes one mistake and dies" it becomes “a thief makes two mistakes and dies” whereas with other classes it might have been “a XXXX can make 4 mistakes and dies , becoming an XXX can make 6 mistakes and dies’.” (quotations for purposes of example)

In relative terms the thief is still fragile in this regard. It certainly has a greater ability to survive a mistake but then so does everyone else. A lot of that “salt” in my opinion is because those fighting a thief can no longer as easily capitaize on that single mistake.

Oh, for sure there’s power creep all over the place, and lots of broken stuff too. But I don’t agree that any defense upgrade thieves have received are at a net zero impact, at least from the perspective of how unforgiving the class is to mistakes. Certainly, not in the 1v1 context that Alatar laid out anyway.

Alatar.7364:

Can we be more specific here? I’d like to know your opinion.

Sure, as mentioned by myself and others in this thread, thief is much more forgiving of mistakes than it used to be, especially since HoT was released and people learned how to play the new spec.

It used to be true that a single mistake (or maybe two) would mean death for a glass thief if the enemy knew to capitalize on it, but not so much now. The unparalleled mobility (not just the best, which would be fine, but another league), combined with the number of evades available (often attached to damaging skills), traits like Unhindered Combatant, and the low cd on Bandit’s Defense, gives even fairly inexperienced players room to be effective and plenty of chances if they make a mistake.

Whether that means nerfs are in order is debatable. My personal preference would be to see some of that toned down to increase the risk in small scale, while buffing to give the profession more large scale value. Regardless, thieves really don’t have that “live fast, die young” thing going anymore.

Alatar.7364:

The answer to your question is very easy.
The thing about Thief is that in order to beat another player (not talking about new/unexperienced players), you must not make a single (literally) mistake. Other professions, while fighting against Thief, can make several mistakes and get away with it. If a Thief makes a single mistake while facing same “skill level player” he will be screwed almost immediately.
Thus people complaining about Thief being OP don’t realize that they were not killed in fight by OP profession but by a player himself.
Thief winning fight is direct result of players (humans) precision, timing and mastery and not a result of passive procs or “overpowered” abilities/utilities.

That hasn’t been true for a long time. Well over a year now, at least.

Caedmon.6798:

Ive been roaming in wvw since 2012.Still to this day whenever i see a Low rank as you describe i simply skip him,unless he engages me first.There is no goodfeel to it for killing from what you know is probably a pver just doing his daily.What i do not like on the other hand,is that same pver who i just skipped and did not engage me either..Will join in when he sees im being chased by 5 – 10 others.

Same. And, even if they engage first, I often let them live if they got lit up without landing a blow during the fight.

It’s not especially fun when it feels like I’m Kramer in a karate class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t8xwpW8gJQ

Zintrothen.1056:

Just make resistance like protection: 33% reduced effectiveness. They can balance the quantity of resistance later. But this makes resistance not godlike, but still very useful when you can get it.

Except resistance isn’t godlike now. Sure, some changes seem to be in order, especially in large scale wvw, but having it work like protection would have to come with substantial nerfs to condi application, duration, damage, and effect.

If you want to nerf resistance, then there’ll have to be a major nerf inbound for conditions as well.

Even if the path of “only negates damaging conditions” is taken, a massive cut to the chill and fear flying around is happening for sure. Moreover, removing those impairment conditions shouldn’t be prevented by the damaging conditions, so you may be looking at retweaking resistance to prevent application of damaging conditions.

I’m good with the idea of preventing stacking, or anything to prevent massive uptime of resistance (as in+50% of the time), but making it cut condi duration by some amount will, again, warrant some major nerfs to conditions (which are stronger now than ever).

That said, I think Anet’s hope is that boon theft, corruption, etc. is the counterplay for resistance. While it’s true that some classes don’t have access to that, the major condi classes do.

@Martym.6971

Lol, k. Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. The rest of us know otherwise.

Martym.6971:

You have much subjective argument without factual evidence to support your claims. I have made no claims other than the obvious class mechanics which is common knowledge and is widely regarded as fact. The only one with “claims” here is you.

I’ve raised issue with claims that you made, and I’ve included quotes those claims as evidence that you made them. You’ve also acknowledged that you made them in subsequent posts.

It’s your claims that a warrior, dh, and other classes are auto pilot (as in, DeceiverX level of play) at level 80, and that thief is only equivalent to that after somewhere between some undefined number of hours and thousands of hours of time playing thief, that are being discussed.

Again, the thing about forums is there’s a record of what people have said and haven’t said. Your most recent post seems bizarrely oblivious to that.

I’ve been running core warrior the entire time, but I’ve noticed a few more core warriors running around. I caught (and fought) a streamer the other day who was experimenting with core for the same reason as you.

In truth, I think Berserker still has the edge on a number of fronts, but the changes to burst and Headbutt timing has been unsettling enough for people to get them experimenting more.

Martym.6971:

It doesn’t matter who I responded to, that is what I quoted and replied to. And that was a comparison I did make, you are correct. And for the most part it’s correct. It’s very slightly overexaggerated but nonetheless it’s a fair comparison in time investment to skill cap. Warriors are a much simpler class with a lower skill cap, so now are you arguing against that?

I would ask as to why you’re asking me questions about newly leveled Warriors and DH and my ability to kill them when I stated Thieves overtake them? You’re trying to invent some fake argument based on something I never pushed, and you’re moving the goal post.

Matter of fact I said the opposite, that Warriors do die when you graduate from new Thief to experienced. Thief is a 1v1 class, it was made to 1v1 all classes. And if a Thief is at a level of play that is above average, they will most certainly kill every other class. This is by sheer design due to their inability to battle zergs but only in Shortbow.

I am trying to understand what exactly you are trying to argue here. About misplay vs consequence tuning? I hardly see an issue here either. Sure Thieves can get away anytime they wish, but if a Thief misplays and runs, you should also create distance besides give chase to refresh your own cooldowns.

You cannot expect to balance a game around 1v1s. So you’re telling me what I was arguing now? Please tell me how Thief is on auto-pilot for everyone. It’s simply not true.

Again, it’s grossly exaggerated. As noted previously, warrior does indeed have a lower skill floor than thief. But anyone operating at the skill floor of either profession will get crushed by even an average player, so it’s fairly irrelevant at this stage in the game.

And, as others and I have said, thief doesn’t have a particularly high skill floor anymore either. It’s got plenty of cover for mistakes, and it doesn’t take that long to learn how to use them either. But at no point have I said that thief is autopilot, that’s something DeceiverX said for him (after thousands of hours) and something you said is possible for other classes at level 80.

Finally, do note that three other people called you out on your claims, so it’s not as though it’s just me. At least two of them (maybe three) are thief mains too.

forum bug

15 chars

Martym.6971:

I never argued equivalence. I said YOU achieved. I didn’t say everyone. Nice strawman though. For future reference, try reading my post thoroughly.

You stated the game is on auto-pilot for you after thousands of hours. The quote that I quoted had absolutely no mention of anything BUT auto-pilot from you. I never argued equivalence after 1000’s of hours. Matter of fact I argued AGAINST it.

I stated that Thieves overtook Warriors in the very post you quoted after time investment. Perception is not your strong suit, and making strawmans based on factually made-up and invented nonsense seems to be your strong suit.

Yeah, see, the cool thing about forums is you can go back and refer to what people actually said.

First of all, you were talking to DeceiverX, not me. Second, if you want to go back to the original claim then you’re saying newly levelled warriors, DHs, etc. are like running autopilot, because, that’s the bit you responded to in DeceiverX’s post. It’s not the number of hours that it takes a thief to get there that’s relevant, it’s the substance of both being in a state of autopilot when it (according to you) applies to warriors, DH, etc. as of level 80.

Do you… have that much trouble killing newly levelled warriors and DHs?

Here’s the original, since you seem to have forgotten.

Martym.6971:

DeceiverX.8361:

Several thousand hours of core D/D power and Daredevil almost puts the game on autopilot for me, frankly. It’s incredibly spammy. I don’t even find it fun.

Maybe better now with the cut endurance gain access from sigils and base from Daredevil, but comparatively speaking, unless comparing to pre-nerf ghost thief, the spec allows for massive misplays to not be immediately punishable by death and allows for a lot of minor misplays with relative impunity of facing those consequences.

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Martym.6971:

My argument was for time investment vs skill cap. None of what you said is relevant to this. New 80 Thieves vs new 80 Warriors of equal time investment,Warriors win hands down.

When you start to exponentially invest more time into the Thief class, and learn the mechanics behind it, you can begin to start owning Warriors. You cannot honestly believe what you type.

Your whole argument is about Thief should be nerfed because you must invest exponentially more time into this class, to reap the same rewards other classes have when they get 80 on the get-go. It makes no sense. The Thief class is balanced around high skill cap and being able to 1v1 when you invest this time to reach it.

If you have some valid argument that suggests Thieves are God-tier off the get-go, and can easily pwn scrubs as soon as they get to 80 with sub par skill, let’s hear it. I know for a fact you have no such argument.

On the contrary, you argued equivalence between a thief with thousands of hours of experience and a warrior, dh, and “other classes”.

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve.

Now you’re changing your argument, but still exaggerating your case. Sure, it’s got a lower skill floor than warrior and dh, but let’s be honest, someone at either class’ skill floor is going to ground up into a fine paste in pvp and wvw, unless they’re up against similarly green players.

It doesn’t take that much time fighting to understand the basic toolkit a thief has had its disposal to counter other classes. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s never been easier to play a thief than it is now,. The class is much more forgiving to new players than it used to be.

Nice try with that strawman argument though. 8/10 for that one.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

It is fun to head to ABL and watch the PVE’ers waiting for Harpy to just melt where they stand. Flattened a few of those puffballs myself.

apharma.3741:

Zintrothen.1056:

zectra.6978:

[…] but mesmer is one of the classes that is -fine- right now.

You cannot be serious… The profession that can unleash non stop condi bombs and then stealth when something goes wrong is fine?

Considering the OP was saying he died in 1s it’s more likely the mesmer was power and power mes isn’t that strong in roaming.

I can’t say I know the truth of it, but a guy in my guild who flips between about half the professions refuses to play his mesmer these days because he thinks it’s obscenely powerful. He never runs condi on any build, and his mesmer is bursty as hell.

I’m not sure why he thinks so because, honestly, I don’t find power mesmers to be that bad unless in the hands of a very skilled player, but that’s not a balance issue. Condi mesmers might be a different story, but it’s been worse before.

In terms of the OP’s post, for sure they could be burst down in a second through a standard opening burst if they were clustered together and didn’t know to dodge.

Martym.6971:

I am glad you finally achieved in thousands of hours what it takes DH, WAR, and other classes a matter of leveling to 80 to achieve. Thief OP. Nerf skill.

Surely the disparity of skill vs time investment vs skill cap time investment is completely balanced in your eyes and warrants more nerfs to Thief, to make it tens of thousands of hours before they can play on the same playing field as other classes. /sarcasm

Man, if you’re not able to eat new level 80 warriors for breakfast as a thief with even a few hundred hours of experience, you’ve got serious l2p issues. I assume that’s the same with the other classes you mentioned, as well.

Honestly, and especially if we’re talking 1v1 or small scale, you’ve got all the tools you need to manhandle warriors with less (and often more) experience than you.

Larger scale combat, or on a point, no, but anything else? C’mon bra.

Better fights as in zerg type fights, or is there actually roaming there too?

I assume they don’t post because it’s proven to be a massive time suck that never solves any problems, and generally makes them worse.

I assume some things eventually make their way into Anet, whether through the mods and/or community relations people like Gaile, and maybe even the occasional dev. How much of an impact it has on game development, I have no idea.

I’d say the purpose of the forum should be seen as a place to get answers to questions, learn new things, and present new ideas to other players, without the expectation that Anet will carry anything forward to change the game.

It’s only equivalent damage wise if you have 100% crit chance and you’re currently using an axe. Even then, you don’t get the advantage of a multiplacative stack like you do with BP.

Damage wise, BP is much better.

^^ That’s why they should have nerfed the damage and CD instead of lengthening the cast. People with bad ping will have to keep a stun bank in the tank for if they get caught, but as it stands, landing against people who don’t have bad ping AND have stun breaks can be a nightmare

Keep in mind that most of a warrior’s skills have big tells on them, which means warriors need viable setup skills to do much of anything. Nerfing the ability to land setup skills is especially painful for the warrior.

Turk.5460:

It might be because this exists. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Rune_of_the_Warrior

8 second Weapon Swap is not as great as 5 seconds, but definitely better than 10s. And this rune is already under-used, so its possible that Anet could buff the set bonus in the future to match Fast Hands.

Yeah, it would need a serious buff to offset the opportunity cost of taking that rune set. Then again, if they buff that set to 5s swap, then it also opens it to classes who haven’t been balanced to 5s swaps like warrior has.

Rapr.8526:

My problem is headbutt, like i said before it ruins combos… nerf the dmg instead of casting time simple. i dont care if it is 20% or 33%.

Yes, I’d have preferred reduced damage and increased CD as well. The more ponderous we are the more easily we’re countered as a class, especially by thieves.

Hitman.5829:

It is not high, it is a proper range for those who decide to run away from the warrior. Specially the thieves and mesmers. The range is fine considering it is a specialization skill, it makes sense that a huge sword would have more range.

More range than when the exact same sword is wielded by a warrior who’s not quite as… angry?

Holland.9351:

Am I getting reflected or is another Ranger shooting me? And do I have to keep the combat log open? And do I have to look at it every time my health goes down? Why not just add a “Reflected!” message like we get for “Obstructed!” and “Invulnerable!” and “Blocked!” and “Evaded!”.

There is a real issue here, I don’t care much about the solution but it needs one.

While, for whatever reason, I don’t seem to have the same difficulty on this front, I’d totally support a “Reflected!” over what might represent a significant power creep that could result in potential class breaking nerfs to druid down the road to compensate.

If that message could be toggled on/off via options, all the better.

I don’t understand why you can’t see it. Your projectile comes back to you, your health goes down, your target’s doesn’t. Your combat log will also show you getting hit with the same skill you’re trying to land on someone else, who won’t show that skill landing on them.

And there’s a lot of projectile reflect in aggregate, not permanent reflect on any one class. It’s bad for the game when counterplay is removed and it’s the opposite direction Anet’s going.

And I don’t have hate for ranger longbow at all. It’s strong, but currently balanced, imo. That said, the range and projectile speed are unparalleled, and Rapid Fire does a lot of damage and 10s vuln for 10s on an 8s CD (traited). Things that make it easier for people to keep greater range than most opponents can close is not good and, speaking as a warrior main, it’s exactly why I’d prefer gunflame be redesigned to prevent warriors from using it that way.

But, no, pew pewing with ranger longbow is not the same as fireball or meteor shower. That’s an insane comparison.

If you’re worried about reflect from a the perspective of feeling useless, why not ask for a limited unblockable like Signet of Might instead? It represents a more costly tradeoff for you that isn’t a permanent buff.

Entenkommando.5208:

I’m not a Warrior main by any means, but wouldn’t you still run discipline because of all the weapon swap benefits it gives? I can’t really imagine these traits not being a standard choice even if they made it baseline.
I mean you get adrenaline, might, conremove and faster recharge on your burst skills from this trait line. How would any Warrior want to miss that?

Discipline would remain a very strong traitline, but it would no longer be (arguably) mandatory. I say arguably because a good player could have some success without it, but it would be comparatively kitten, imo.

Also, if Fast Hands was made baseline, we’d probably due for some nerfing in other areas because some of the newly available combinations could be stupidly strong.

Holland.9351:

It’s balanced. The projectile is still getting destroyed and it costs a trait as payment. If the game would tell me when my projectiles get reflected or how much damage they’re dealing to my teammates (and myself), then I probably won’t need it, but in big WvW battles it’s impossible to tell (might be because of low graphics settings, but still).

The 2nd trait, yes, ranger often needs to swap weapons for mobility to get out of the way of a zerg, but then he’s stuck in that weapon for 5 more seconds waiting for the cooldown to finish. Other ranged classes often have utility skills that do the job, like teleport. Not really needed, but still something that would be nice to have.

So, full disclosure, I don’t play my ranger much (though it’s my favourite alt). But when I’m getting reflected, I stop shooting the target. One trait to forever trump anyone who’s invested traits and skills to counterplay you seems way over powered to me.

Consider it the other way… how would you respond to a class having a trait that permanently destroys projectiles?

As for fast hands, ranger already has better mobility than most classes, and no greater need than another class to be able to escape a zerg. In fact, an lb/gs or lb/s druid already has comparable (and arguably better) ability to escape a zerg than the one class that has Fast Hands. This is especially true if the playstyle being used is lb from range, and then needing to gtfo if the zerg turns.

Fast hands supports a faster return to the lb for shooting, which is much stronger than what the warrior has going including gunflame, because the range and pressure of the ranger lb is stronger and the mobility of both ranger gs and staff is better as well.

So, it seems to me, that the two things would facilitate the worst kind of play – low risk skill spamming from safety, with excellent escape potential, and, for people with any skill, much higher combat threat within melee as well. It’s a combination which leads to much of the salt thrown at thief, and why (imo) gunflame in any situation beyond small scale combat, is bad for the game.

As for not needing balancing, consider that the warrior has already been balanced around having the trait to the point that Fast Hands has largely been considered a mandatory trait for every build. If you don’t take the trait as a warrior, you’re generally considered unviable. Ranger is (obviously) viable now, which means the addition of the trait would be a considerable power creep in need of balancing.

Just my two bits.

You want the ability to spam longbow skills without any risk and the ability to quickly swap between weapons to gain easier access to either:

1. tools/rotations to lay bigger beats, or
2. mobility for even easier re-positioning and more ranged pew pew?

What would you want to see nerfed for this, or do you believe it would be a balanced addition with no need for any nerfs?

The only way it might happen (and it’s crazy unlikely), is if they do it as part of a general trait overhaul in anticipation of the next expansion (like they did with HoT).

Zero.3871:

Yeah, and warri (this poor class made no dmg, kappa) get +7% dmg on axe AGAIN. in the last 30000 patches this class EVER get +10%, or +15% dmg on axe.

Need on the warrior subforum, I’m willing to bet that just about every warrior would gladly trade that extra axe damage to undo the nerfs to specific burst and control skills.