Guild Wars 2

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

You get low amounts of objective caps and not a ton of kills like you get in zerg, and thus you get low bags and low wxp gain. Therefore it’s not really supported by Anet as being the targeted activity that Anet rewards in wvw.

Pound for pound, I’d say roamers contribute more than people in a zerg. Meaning, pit 20-30 roamers on a map against 20-30 in a blob, and the roamers will gain far more ppt, have a better handle on what’s happening on the map, and bag more kills unless the roamers try to attack the zerg head on (assuming the zerg is actually capable and not just a blob of potatoes).

Hitman.5829:

To be honest the spellbreaker looks weak. A warrior is dead meat without endure pain and berserk stance! A warrior is forced to play with those 2 utility skills or else the warrior is easy prey in PvP or WvW.

The new dagger skills have kitteny mobility, the spellbreaker warrior will be easy prey for all the range classes.

I am not surprised!

Spellbreakers don’t have to use daggers, just like Berserkers don’t have to use a torch. Spellbreakers can also opt to use endure pain and/or berserker stance, just like Berserkers.

So, bottom line, it’s a buff if anything. Being able to stack like Adrenal Health is much better than having the bonus value replaced upon each burst.

It’s true, it could be an incredibly awful ride. Combine with the easy removal of resistance and any condi heavy build riding shotgun with the Spellbreaker will seal the deal.

So you haven’t played much with berserker? Well, a couple things to note are that Adrenal Health got a big boost, so you gain a lot of sustain just by turtling up with a shield, stance, and, if you aren’t opposed to condi, Berserker opened up a bunch of options there.

m+t/s+sh hybrid (or condi) is comparatively unique and strong, for example.

I don’t understand these sorts of posts when getting pips is so incredibly easy. I don’t understand why someone would run two accounts to farm pips for the exact same reason.

Sure. I play vanilla, and below is the link to the roaming build I was running for a while, which is also what I used to duel people there.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAnXRjMdQVI2FCmdAnIGICKsFehVwCgIYA0vY6nCA-TVSBABmpEEgHAgGnAA80HswRAYjDBAlq/clyPa2fIAACwNbz28mBczbezbezbWKgAXGB-w

When jumping into pvp arenas to duel friends, the build stayed more or less the same, except the runes switched to scholar and the sigils changed, of course.

The playstyle is pretty straightforward… you play aggressively because you don’t have much active defense to rely on besides dodges, which is great, because you can also use those aggressively when you run the strength line.

I’ve dropped it for roaming in favour of the sword for mobility and the shield for defense (which has been my go-to for a couple of years now), mostly because I hassle larger groups a lot and the above build isn’t great for that. It’s still fun for duels, imo.

Sure can. I ran something similar to it for duels (even roamed with it for a couple of months).

It’s got some pretty obvious counters, but the damage pressure is high, especially if your duels are restricted to a smaller area.

morrolan.9608:

You do if you’re consistently coming 1st and it takes much less effort to maintain your participation in a zerg. Hence why anet yet against fails to break up zerging and indeed makes it worse because they fundamentally don’t understand the mode.

When maintaining participation as a roamer is dead easy (even if you’re just killing npcs), there’s no advantage in a zerg.

Again, there’s a clear advantage for general loot, but not for pips, tickets, and the new wvw gear.

Strider Pj.2193:

But their Zerg is so big that they can just spam one? And you are not outnumbered thus giving you more pips per tick?

Population deficits have caused problems, but Pips isn’t one of them.

Sorry, I don’t follow. The claim is that BG has an unfair advantage to get the new wvw gear. That gear is gated by tickets, which are acquired by pips. Pips flow at the same rate provided you reach a pretty low activity threshold, with zerging adding nothing to flow of pups (and tickets).

If BG is truly so much bigger than its opponents, then, if anything, the opponents will get an advantage through the outnumbered buff, even if rarely.

Either way, I see no advantage to BG on this front. Considering you can roll around and kill sentries and take to get the pips flowing, being able to mash 1 in a blob isn’t any kind if advantage.

morrolan.9608:

They can run with the constant zerg and hit 1 and get the tickets, and there’s not many times when there is an outnumbered map.

Zergs don’t get pips faster than anyone else. Badges of honor, karma, loot, sure, but not pips and tickets.

I roam exclusively, and I’m getting pips at the same rate as my allies in zergs after taking a couple if camps, sentries, and people.

morrolan.9608:

Your full threshold is far too low. Servers are full yet have populations too low to earn your shiny new WvW rewards at a rate similar to say those on BG. There is manifest inequality between servers and this impacts on progress towards rewards due to the way you’ve set them up. Linking as a way to mitigate this is a failure partially due to the wait between relinks which is far too long.

How does BG have an advantage to get the new Wvw gear? If anything, servers who can get the outnumbered buff have the advantage in that regard, otherwise it’s even.

It’s hard to say if it’ll be any further behind than it was when Berserker was at its peak.

I’m also curious to see if there will be a limit (of one) elite spec per build. If so, and I think there’s a reason to think so, then I don’t think vanilla will be that much further behind than it was with HoT.

Haha, you’re right. They were mystic clovers… well, that’s embarrassing.

Thread can be deleted, I suppose.

Hexalot.8194:

I would have thought it obvious by now why most roamers run nuke builds. It’s to down you as quickly as possible before 4 or 5 of your buddies arrive to “save the day”. In the old days one could afford to run dueling builds because chances are you could have fairly lengthy uninterrupted fights. That’s obviously no longer the case and hasn’t been for a while.

Yep, that’s also why mobility is important.

I have something like 1500 of those things (plus a few hundred levels in experience scrolls), just from roaming around. Considering how little effort it takes to complete a track, I’d have to think the rate is high enough to give someone 80 levels worth by the time they need to name another character.

I wish I could sell them, or even give them away. Same with ascended rings… I probably have 20+ of those that aren’t being used.

Would your vendor buy my tomes too? Special price… 1g per tome.

It always ebbs and flows. Expect a massive power creep game-wide when the expansion pack is released, and probably some additional changes before that.

Warrior just isn’t the FotM at the moment. If it’s not keeping you from doing what you want, don’t worry about it. If it is, you’ve just got to ride it out.

Yeah, I’ve seen the same. Haven’t submitted a bug report yet, though. That’s supposedly the best path to getting these things fixed.

Fair enough. Best of luck with Operation: Fun First Cobra Strike Panda!

The reason that it seems to make sense is that it’s more or less a rehash of a long standing build from the old days. But it’s just not as much of a contributor as it used to be due to nerfs, game power creep, and better builds on other classes to do the same job. Personal sustain’s probably better now that it used to be.

The concept’s about the same though… party support, middling damage, and interrupts.

Here’s an old video from way back when Red Guard was a thing. Variations include the “worker warrior”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tPdXawRbrQ

I’m surprised you went that route though, given your super glass style with your rev.

lagrangewei.8516:

if player were robot you will be right. but if a server depend on 500 people as compared to 2000, what the impact when all the player decide to play 20 minute more? or 20 minute less? this make the system completely unstable for assessing server usage week by week effectively. what is more is the system is accumulative, this greatly reduce the system responsiveness to population change.

The impact from the server with 2000 people would obviously be greater, which the approach Anet is taking would pick up for the following week.

Yes, there’s a lag and it’s not going to be able to anticipate future changes, but what’s the alternative. Just basing it on people logging into wvw with no regard for time spent in wvw is worse, and basing it on actual server population is worse still.

Roaming can still be done, and some days are better than other days. I’m typically running solo on a power vanilla warrior, so you don’t have to run something broken.

The only time I have any real trouble is when the only other people “roaming” are what used to be called havoc squads, sometimes comped, but now mostly just a pile of condi spam and ganks.

babazhook.6805:

Part of the problem in boosting the damage on the AA from sword is as it gets closer to the other sets , there becomes less reason for the other sets. I really do not think there a problem with sword 1 2 and 3 outside maybe a slight tweak in activation time on savage leap.

Damage wise the set works fine main hand.

If you just want raw power damage stick to axe. If you want decent + that a mix of condition and power while offering utility then sword works very well. (the fluidity and feel of sword main may be an issue but that seems to exist across a number of classes with that as Main hand)

With what I proposed, sword would still have its niche. Axe would remain the highest melee power dps/spike, gs would come in second but with the best mobility and best aoe spike. Sword would still be third or fourth (of four) for melee power damage, but would be a great hybrid weapon with very good mobility.

I used mainland sword (with gs) as my primary roaming set from about July 2015 until a few months ago, and I still use it when it suits me. I know it can work well, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t do with some buffs to keep up with the rest of the game.

babazhook.6805:

Let us put it this way. I play all manner of builds cross all professions including condition builds. I do not think it wise to add more STACKS of a condition to a single attack via the AA. Thief dagger has one stack in the enitre chaint. Thief pistol has one stack per attack unless one stealths up first for a sneak attack which acts as a limiter. I know full well that increasing the NUMBER of stacks on thief would be too much and I think the same applies to warrior.

Now back to that clear and the warrior using bleed via a sword. About 6 months back I rejigged my build to go power warrior using sword/shield and taking the ARMS line. It was not my intent to use it for bleeds or condition damage when I did so but rather to leverage signet mastery into allowing close to 100 percent crit rate at all times without having to use precision in my gear.

I was quite suprised at the damage ticks I got off the bleeds and burns in sword when I went that route. I have 0 condition damage in the build but comboing with might stacks and the GM trait adder you can get significant bleed ticks and keep applying them over and over without having to rely on cover conditions. Added to that the line allows Vuln stacking via rending strikes which adds to both power and condition damage.

You then go down to your Zerker line and get Always angry which also adds to the Power and condition ticks.

In real game terms , even with cleansing and using a power build there is a significant increase in damage output from those ticks even as you do your power damage. Cover conditions are really not needed.

Like I said, it was only the equivalent of adding one extra stack (of the current duration) to the chain where there wasn’t one currently. I then doubled the stacks but cut the durations in half.

By comparison, thief (and only because you brought it up) applies a bleed with every pistol auto that’s 1/2 the duration of the bleed currently on the first two warrior sword autos. When factoring the gap on the warrior sword auto chain, the total applied bleeds by the pistol auto is 2/3 what the warrior sword does, but the warrior bleeds are cleared more easily (longer duration at less frequent application) and you have to be in melee to apply it.

Keeping all of my proposed bleed buffs to the auto chain, the warrior sword would put out twice the bleed pressure as the thief pistol auto (not counting the stealth burst), but only from melee (vs 900 range). It’s about in inline with what Anet’s done with damage balancing range vs melee elsewhere.

That’s before we get into the much higher condi diversity and application frequency that thief has generally, even if all of my proposed buffs to warrior got implemented. But, again, I’m only comparing to thief because you brought it up.

And I agree that you can get some decent ticks out of the sword auto, but if you look at your combat log on a normal fight, averaging out the bleeds and compare it to forgone damage from using something like axe or greatsword, it comes out considerably lower. It’s easy to underestimate the bleeds, but it’s actually not that high when you consider the periodic cleanses that wipe them out pretty easily. Also, getting a few 1k ticks in a row isn’t going to offset that a power warrior can do an extra 2k+ per auto (when factoring in crits and over the course of the chains).

I experimented with a gs/s+s build a while back that used mostly zerk gear, but (iirc) sinister swords and maybe a couple of sinister trinkets. The main concept was to generate tonnes of might (and some vuln) to get respectable power and condi damage. It worked ok, and gave me options when facing opponents who were more vulnerable to one damage type or another, but it was ultimately sub-optimal except in niche circumstances. Great mobility though, and reasonably fun,but I shelved it after about two weeks of play time.

Point being, I see plenty of room to buff both the power and the condi of warrior sword. I’m not married to the idea of adding the bleed to the third auto, but I don’t think it would be overpowered either given it’s just the equivalent of adding one of the current bleeds from the other two autos.

babazhook.6805:

I do not think bleeds needed to be added to the auto at all. While true they can be cleansed with there being limited sources of condition types available , the bleeds can be applied over and over again at will. Added to that if you do go into Arms you can get more bleeds added along with some nice Vuln stacking. Both of these have the chance to be applied on every single attack.

The fact is you WILL have a bleeds on your target no matter how many times the target cleanses unless you stop attacking which also means that when in arms you always get that 5 percent damage boost.

Yeah, I tossed the extra bleeds on the third attack just because I find the bleed application on only 2/3 of the chain annoying. If you take that away and leave the other change to auto, the boost to condi damage from the entire chain is just whatever additional bleed gets in before you’d normally get cleared. If not cleared in either case, there’d be zero net increase. That might be sufficient, I’m not sure… it’s not powerful relative to the rest of the game, mind you.

While, yes, you’ll always have bleeds for the purposes of the extra power damage and crit chance, it’s not awesome for dps when your target can more or less kill your condi damage with light condi clear. It would be a different story if we had better condi diversity, but we don’t.

I’m in favour of sword buffs. Off the top of my head, I think the following would be good:

• +50 power scaling on the sword auto
• Double the bleed stacks on the auto chain, add two bleeds to the third auto, but cut the duration of all of them in half. The reason for this is we have limited condi diversity, which makes us relatively easy to clear, so the short term pressure needs to by increased. Overall condi damage from a full autochain (if left uncleared) would thus be increased by 33%
• Double or even triple the bleed duration on Flurry. It’s not worth channeling beyond the immob atm, it’s a self-root, and a single condi clear will wipe it (and any other bleeds you’ve applied) out even with the buff
• Double the cripple time on Savage Leap, but otherwise leave it as a great mobility skill
• Some sort of condi load to Final Thrust, probably involving Torment. Ideally, double the Torment when the target is below 50%
• Improve the mechanic on Impale/Rip so that both are more usable (increased distance on Rip and toned down cast animation on Impale, perhaps)

The above would put the sword in the middle of the road for power, decent (but not crazy) condi damage, and a very good overall hybrid weapon with good utility (mobility, block, and soft cc)

Turk.5460:

No, you didn’t. You merely made another exaggerate claim of something you think you see “a bunch.” Then you go on to mention a “friend on another server” (throwing in the adverb effortlessly) was doing this, and even without the defensive traitline. This isn’t even close to something you could call evidence. And it’s not even regarding the engage/disengage superiority I requested you to prove. You’ve lost all credibility now, and my interest. It’s been fun, though!

And you said you’ve seen what I described many times, even from other classes. This is why I said you wouldn’t be in a tough spot if you’d just tried to claim that what I described is impossible.

So, since you’ve seen it many times from other classes, and that how they did it was super simple and obvious, please go ahead and describe it for the rest of us.

Or are you now saying other classes can’t do it? Or is that how you run from the box you put yourself in, after desperately trying to change the subject for the last several posts?

Turk.5460:

You did not. And I did not confirm your claim of Thieves being vastly superior in terms of engage/disengage.

Sure I did. I described a scenario in which a thief could do something through superior mobility that other classes can’t do to nearly to the same degree.

You confirmed that it can be done, but said you’ve seen other classes do it plenty of times, so it’s not remarkable.

So, if you don’t demonstrate that the other classes can do it, we’re left with just thieves doing it, which you and I both agree they can do.

GunnarMare.9218:

Sarnax.8357:

I hear you. Dagger’s are little small in the hands of my Norn War. But is there precedent for Wars using Daggers in GW1?

Yes. In Random Arenas there was build where warrior knocked target down with hammer and then swapped weapon to daggers for several quick attacks. This was basically one-shot combo if the target did not receive support. Here is link to the wiki page (similar to metabattle). http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:W/A_BB_Dagger_Warrior

I stand corrected. It wasn’t a warrior weapon in gw1, but I forgot about the class mixing midweek the game used. As noted, a warrior could use a dagger if assassin was the subclass.

Historically, dagger makes sense as an offhand “warrior” weapon. I’m fine with it main hand too, and is value will be determined by what it does.

Back to the OP, there’s no precedent from gw1 in terms of warriors and daggers, but given the name “spellbreaker” (our whatever), perhaps it’ll have an interrupt or some new anti-spell mechanic.

I’d like to see a weapon that could be used as power, Condi, or both, which isn’t hard to accomplish. Faster attacks and defensive utility would also be valuable, along with mid-range striking.

Hesacon.8735:

Warriors are declawed kittens in spvp, however they are beyond broken in wvw. Several times a week I see one fighting 1v3 ir 1v4 to a stalemate. Boon stripping, condi, power, it does not matter for warriors will not be downed.

Boon strip + chill, regardless if you’re running power or condi, is really hard on warriors, even in wvw. Focus on stripping and kiting when they use Berserker Stance and, when you make it through the other side, they’re done unless they can run.

Turk.5460:

Oh you don’t like your own logic played against you? You made a claim first. Please provide proof of said claim, then I will happily appease your inexperienced curiosity of basic game-play mechanics and self-combo tecqniques.

I did provide evidence in the post I quoted in my last comment. You confirmed that what I said occurs, but you denied it was remarkable by saying others do it, which I called you on.

If you don’t validate your claim that it’s unremarkable, then it stands as evidence (that you’ve acknowledged) to my earlier claim. Had you taken a different tack, like, “that’s totally impossible”, then you’d be in a better place than you are now.

You’re up.

Turk.5460:

I merely contested your initial claim of Thieves “being in another league altogether” in terms of mobility – a false claim that has since hindered your following arguments.

That’s a nice try, but strange given the post in question is on this very page. Here’s what was actually said, your claims in response to what I asked:

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Yes. Very often. But at that point, is it really the fault of those professions – or is it the groups of “5+” (I’m assuming some sort of group of disabled turnips) for deciding that they need to chase these professions around in circles every time they appear…

Choppy.4183:

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

So, please feel free to show how a mesmer or ranger can do what I described thieves doing for five mins or so. You said you’ve seen it plenty of times, and even that it’s super basic.

But, man, don’t try to shift into something else like we’ve all got the memories of gold fish. Even if we did, the post is just up the page… so that tactic’s just not going t work.

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Sure, buddy. Whatever makes you feel better. I remember when I was new to WvW, too, you’ll learn the in’s and out’s eventually.

I mean, you can try to pivot like that. But a lot of us in this thread have been playing the game for years, many of us know each other in game, and have fought each other in game as well. We all use different classes and we know the other classes too.

That you think you can make a claim that’s counter to what’s apparent, refuse to demonstrate your claim when asked, and then think anyone will believe your transparently obvious attempt to escape the box you’ve put yourself in is kind of hilarious.

Clearly this puts any sort of credibility people may have given your other posts in jeopardy. But, sure, try that tack.

Turk.5460:

Ah, so you don’t have a fundamental understanding of the other professions as I previously thought. No, I won’t tell you, I’m not going to hold your hand here. Go to those subforums and request someone to teach you basic evasive maneuvers of those professions.

You won’t say because you know it’s not true, and so do the rest of us.

Turk.5460:

You’re delusional if you don’t think Mesmer and Ranger have similar disengage as Thief. Engineer is not far behind. And they can choose their engagements just as well based on the disengage options available to them.

You’ve seen a lot of mesmers, rangers, and engineers using their superior engage/disengage to toy with groups of 5+, have you? Leading them around ganking anyone who stays just a little too far from the rest?

Because I’ve seen thieves do that a bunch. Had a friend on another server doing that just the other day, even against non-scrubby players. He was laughing too because (1) he’s not a thief main, and (2) he want even using the acro line and was still effortlessly avoiding any real danger.

I don’t see other classes even close to having that level of engage/disengage. If you think otherwise, please describe exactly how a mesmer or ranger would be able to keep up what I just decided for five mins or so….

Yeah, it’s always been this way. The trigger is being hit with a hard cc skill, not actually being affected by it.

It wasn’t really a problem before because we didn’t have any other sources of automatic stability. So you just learned to only use a stability skill on your bar if someone managed to stun you (a clear indicator that LS was on cool down).

Eternal Champion certainly makes it more of a problem/waste though. On the plus side… I guess it gives you extra stability that’s harder to strip, plus swiftness and vigor… maybe just not when you need it.

Turk.5460:

Choppy.4183:

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer – in that order.

I’m not going to bother explaining why and what combos for each individual profession, since you seem to understand the fundamental concepts of this game.

I’ve said this before, and I guess I’ll throw it out there again onto the sea of deaf ears;

People here like to complain about anyone who has outplayed them, and immediately blame it on the profession/build/gear of their opponent. Thieves are preyed upon in this manner because the ones that have mastered the profession are the ones who frustrate you the most. Apparently any thief that is killed was only killed because they were inexperienced (in the eyes of the forum complaints).

If the same opponent has mastered a different profession and kills the same forum complainers, that forum complainer no doubt will cry just as hard about that profession. I.E. DH’s (albeit DH skill floor is much lower than Thief).

If it were so forgiving and easy, someone would have answered the call to record and post a video of them, a novice Thief, “easymoding” in WvW. Which we have requested whenever such accusations arise. Seriously, been asking for that type of proof for years, and none of the complainers have recorded anything to backup their asinine claims. Is it possibly because they were …gasp …wrong?

If every Thief you come across is wiping the floor with you, the problem isn’t the Thief, it’s you.

You must be confusing disengage with choosing engagements again if you think those the are on the same level as thief in this regard… and they don’t even have the same level of disengage either, unless you want to say all of them can successfully disengage from combat.

Beyond that, I really don’t know what to do with your comment. You make all sorts of allegations about my motivations that aren’t true for arguments that I haven’t actually made. I think I’ve been pretty clear and specific about the issues I’m raising and why, and they don’t remotely resemble your characterization of them.

Also, you’re living in a bubble if you think you have to be a master thief to be effective in small scale Wvw combat. Those days are long gone and most people freely acknowledge that.

Do you honestly think thief is hard to play in small scale Wvw?

Turk.5460:

This is not a good enough reason for change. There are multiple other professions that can choose their engagements/disengage on the same level that a Thief can. In terms of disengage, Thief isn’t even the best at that, Mesmer is.

I can see how disengage/reset is frustrating and all, but in terms of equal skill, it is no more of an advantage to the Thief than it is to their opponent:

1. Walk the opposite direction to make the disengaged thief spend resources to catch up.
2. You are also out of combat the moment the Thief is, probably earlier due to almost every other profession having more on-demand condi cleanse.
3. The only opponent cooldowns that could possibly be a concern after a reset (Which means you won, by the way. you don’t have to double-down stomp your opponent to win) would be some elite skills. And even then they are very few, as you probably shouldn’t button-mash panic-spam your elite button upon the start of every engagement…

You misunderstood my comment about thief control over engagements to be a complaint about disengage mechanics. I actually think thief should retain control over the initial engagement to the degree that it has historically, but its mobility and defense have brought it to a silly level in small scale.

And no class has even remotely the ability to choose engagements/disengagements that thief has. I’d love to hear which classes you think are on the same level level though.

That being said, your #1 claim is obviously untrue, to the extent that you mean it’s an actual defense. And management of opponent cooldowns is a standard tactic that doesn’t require a fight reset to accomplish. In fact, someone in this very thread described doing it. I wasn’t even griping about it either, just presenting it as one of the pieces to the thief’s seemingly excessive control over engagement and low risk:reward in small scale.

babazhook.6805:

When I play my warrior I know exactly what he can do relative to my thief. This includes parking himself IN The heart of a zerg with red circles all around and surviving.

Sure, and that’s why I’ve also said I’d like to see thief get some buffs so they aren’t (almost) shut out of that aspect of the game while remaining (arguably) the best roaming class (albeit with a better risk:reward balance there). Still with their own style, still with niches, just not extreme in either direction.

By this point, after all of these posts, you can’t possibly think I’m saying, “omfg!@#!! teefs nedz da nerfs from gawds mode now’s!!#!#!!”. I don’t think anyone on this thread had said anything close to that.

Nath.3814:

Itz Jay.8941 thank you so much I really appreciate the information youve provided cheers.

To specify, yeah, I wouldnt mind eventually trying raiding. So the cPS build is what I think I’ll be aiming for, and the viper set. Not sure how I got it into my head that Marauder’s was condition based, must have miss read something.

The stats you thought were for Marauder are actually for Sinister. Viper’s better, if you can swing it.

Sly.9518:

Other classes can do better Burst, have almost as High stealth access and one class can almost rival mobility with the Meta Thief build on any flat surface sooo yeah…

But hey I’m not the one calling for nerfs to class or ever have soooo….. who needs to l2p??

You must be posting in the wrong thread. You seem confused.

Sly.9518:

Oh nooooooooo!!!!! Thieves are good at one thing!!!!!

Only one? Bruh… you really need to have someone teach you how to teef.

babazhook.6805:

That being the case one of the easiest ways a thief can get killed is leaving his group and running ahead to chase someone down. He tends to use all of his INI when doing so and is often dealt with handily by a warrior/DH who turns to face him when that INI gone and is finished off before the rest of the group catches up.

That really depends on how dumb the thief is and how far they have to travel. Even when the thief has to travel a long distance, all they need to do is tie up the person combat with a shortbow until his buddies show up. If we’re only talking about <3k distance, the thief can have plenty of initiative left in the tank for the fight, or can tie things up (as previously mentioned) until he gets to a more comfortable amount of initiative.

If the thief burns all of his initiative just to get into melee range of an opponent, then, yeah, obviously he’s going to die. But then, if any other class puts all of their skills on cooldown before walking into a fight, they’re probably going to die too.

We should probably assume at least a basic degree of competence when discussing scenarios.

babazhook.6805:

Here is the point. The thief having higher mobility adds diversity to the game. It is not a bad thing. As I exampled when I was on my warrior and was trying to flip those South camps against that roaming group of 3+ , it was relatively easy for them to catch and gank me. I was ineffective solo roaming. When I switched to thief it was harder for them to do the same. In having classes with these weaknesses and advantages I can better adapt to what the map situation warrants.

There is nothing wrong with having a class that can use its mobility to escape an outnumbered situation. Complaining about this is like some infantryman in the Napoleonic war complaining that the enemy Cavalry uses its superior speed to get away when they approach it.

Of course thieves having higher mobility isn’t bad for the game, and there’s no reason why they shouldn’t have the best among all classes. But mobility is even better now for thieves than it was before HoT, whereas all other classes have converged. Warrior mobility has dropped from the #2 spot to somewhere in the middle, ranger’s gained a bunch, dh has improved, mesmer too, ele’s fine, engineer’s about the same, etc.

Everyone in the non-thief cohort is closer than they’ve ever been in terms of mobility, and thief is in another league altogether, afaik. Meanwhile, defenses against being locked down while engaged are far higher and the thief ranged game has improved (if needed).

What this adds up to in small scale combat, particularly roaming, is a class that largely has total control over engagements. That doesn’t mean it’s favoured to win every fight, only that the thief gets to choose which fights to have, to easily bail from fights gone bad, to try again repeatedly in hopes of better results (often based on an opponent’s skills being in cd), and the primary counter to this mobile game is another thief.

That’s just boring.

So yes, no problem with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and no problem with them being, as far as this can be assessed, potentially the best roaming class in the game. But the risk:reward balance is way off when getting into a fight requires no real commitment or risk.

What are you talking about? First, they have to run back to the fight, which is in and of itself a major cost to the fight. Second, you want people to be even more gutless than they are now, hiding on walls and avoiding fights at all costs until they have numerical advantage?

Kovu.7560:

His argument in regards to which professions thieves are “weak against” is kitten, lazy, wrong and generalistic, but it isn’t a straw man.

It is to the extent that he portrayed what people have said here as a call to nerf thieves to be weak against everything. I don’t see that in anyone’s posts here.

Turk.5460:

Thieves are at a disadvantage against these 4 professions, using their most common builds. But apparently, being weak to half, and strong against the other half – is too much. Thieves have to become weak to all before some of these crybabies are satisfied.

“A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”.

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., “stand up a straw man”) and the subsequent refutation of that false argument (“knock down a straw man”) instead of the opponent’s proposition.

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery “battle” and the defeat of an “enemy” may be more valued than critical thinking or an understanding of both sides of the issue. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Turk.5460:

I wish this skill reflected projectiles like the Thief stolen version does.

Oh man, if it had reflect and the movement boost, say hello to the new go-to warrior offhand. It would seriously outclass the shield, which is the best we have now.

I’d also hum the melody from Jaws everything’s I used it to run someone down.

apharma.3741:

I mean if you really want to start saying you have to consider other blocks relative to the class you should also consider all defences accessable to the class

The short window of exposure to danger, and control over it, should also be factored in. If those other classes use a block or invuln, they’re generally going to be in combat when that defense is up. Not true with a thief unless they make mistakes.

Meaning, if tying up a thief once they’ve engaged in combat (which is something they generally have control over) is the manner in which they’re to be countered, then the class shouldn’t really have among the greatest access to defenses to that counter.

If those defenses are retained, then the ability to withdraw from combat and control engagement should probably be reduced, or damage, etc. Just standard risk:reward stuff, really, which should obviously apply to all other classes too (not just thief)

babazhook.6805:

The suggestion the gap in mobility between them and other classes along with them being compensated by giving more ability to survive in Zergs is doing exactly that and one you made. It very much like people wanting to “normalize” builds in WvW via an amulet system.

I can’t speak for others, but you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said.

Choppy.4183:

All I was saying is that I see room to restore balance to the Force here. To keep thieves as a top class in small scale but still shaving into some of these aspects that give even mediocre players plenty of covers for bad play, and otherwise increasing the risk factor to better reflect the reward.

In addition, I’d like to see it get some more love to it’s more fun to play outside of small scale. It’s received some compared to the old days, but there’s room for more. That said, I’ve banged this drum before. My only reason for bringing it up in this conversation (which isn’t about that) is because people sometimes interpret calls for nerfs to thieves’ small scale combat game as a general claim that thieves are easy god mode at all times. I don’t think that that’s true, and I’d be surprised if anyone else with any time spent playing the game would either.

I’m fully comfortable with thieves being the most mobile class in the game, and they’ve always been so. But the extent to which they are now, relative to all other classes, puts it in a different league to the point that the risk:reward balance is way off in wvw. This is exacerbated by the newly HoT acquired defenses to being locked down and otherwise when they do choose to engage.

Similarly, I’m fine with thieves being less useful in terms of team support or in a zerg, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with them getting a bump there to support broader utility for the class either. I agree with your previous post that HoT did indeed improve things for thieves on this front though.

But, no, I’ve no interest in homogenizing all classes, and I don’t have an issue with the general concept Anet has going for thieves either.