Guild Wars 2

Wolfric.9380:

i would jsust drop placement matches and set players according to their PvP rank.
rank 20 is mid bronze and 80+ high silver then fight up …

lol rank means nothing, my alt account doesn’t have HoT and is like rank 30? and it is in plat xD

Azukas.1426:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

Azukas.1426:

OriOri.8724:

The amount of people defending a broken design is absolutely ridiculous. Have you thief players ever stopped and considered that the fact that thief is so reliant on these cheese gimmicks is because part of the design of the class is flawed? No, putting an ICD on ID will not kill thief, it just won’t.

But what I really can’t understand is why you thief players so adamantly defend cheese mechanics on a thief. Every single time it comes up you guys come rushing in with “But we need it! Otherwise thief will be trash.” Its either “Its not OP” (which doesn’t mean it isn’t a fundamentally flawed design) or “if you nerf/remove this thief will never be competitive again”. If you rely on 1 or 2 cheese gimmicks to be competitive (which you actually don’t anyway) then the class needs to be redesigned.

Quit kittening whining and get out of denial. Some features of your class are just pure bad design and need to be redone. And when they are, thief will no longer be this one trick pony that it is right now, you will no longer be reliant on cheese mechanics just to be effective.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Block
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistrust

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pulmonary_Impact_

PI can’t crit, but power block can. Mistrust gives out 4 stacks of confusion which is insane damage that will eclipse a PI proc with like 1-2 tics + skill use.

Oh and I main mesmer so before you go on about headshot being spammable or some other kitten we mesmers can chain interrupts just as well.

So like I said until one of you refutes my original post please let this thread die.

Thank You

No one needs to refute your original post because all it is doing is trying to derail this thread, exactly like you are doing with this post. This is a thread about thiefs, not mesmers. Even then though, yes mesmers can chain interrupts but it requires more than 1 skill on the bar to do so, unlike thief. To chain 3 interrupts, a mesmer would have to use 3 different skills on their bar, and power lock has a 4 second cooldown itself regardless. Thief only has to burn 1 skill to do the same thing. This thread is about thieves however, not about mesmers. Trying to turn the discussion back to mesmers is doing nothing more than trying to derail the thread because you can’t actually defend the point at hand.

Huh? Is this a serious post or are you really posting this?

Please let me know

Thank you

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Can-thief-apply-9-10-boons-at-once/first#post6459497

That pretty much confirms what I initially thought and now is the time for you to honestly put some time into PvP. Focus on the classes you have issues with (like thief) and learn the ways to counter what they do.

See you have it easy b/c mesmer actually counters thief right now. Back in the day most of us mesmer mains had to learn how to fight thieves when we were hard countered by them.

If you need help look up the pro mesmers streams and duel your guildies/friends/enemies constantly. PvP takes lots of practice and the willingness to learn instead of blame Anet.

Thank you

OMG, nice find Azukas.

Stolen items are simply outdated. They supposed to help us with classes we stole it from but some of them don’t anymore.

Ice stab needs to be a chilling field that knocks enemy down on first application, not 1 attack that disappears instantly on ele.

Throw gunk should strip boons imo.

Lol it is even worse at higher ratings since half of 250 are alt accounts/season afkers so MM can’t find equal teams so you have 4 top 10 players on one team and full team of 1700-1800 on other.

What needs to happen:
1. players shouldn’t be placed higher than 1700
2. you need to play at least 100 matches to qualify for top 250
3. rating gains/loses should depend on how close the match was. It will give motivation for players to actually try. Losing 20 ranks for 499-500 match is extremely discouraging.

ranked and unranked have MMR, so in a sense it is rated
where HJ doesn’t

Henry, you play necro. You want classes that give necros hard time to get nerfed.

Henry, necros heavily hardcounter scrappers. By your logic, necros are OP. Let’s nerf necros – any suggestions?

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

That is not true:
- you give up condi removal for it
- you give up gap closers, stealth for it since you use ini for headshot instead of other spells
- you actually have to run dps amy for it to do meaningful dmg….
- you actually have to successful interrupt the target and that is not as easy as you would think due to nature of other classes (pulsing stab, blinds, blocks etc.)

Now let’s do a little comparison here: take scrapper hammer. Most skills have basically backstab multiplies. How much does scrapper have to invest to do decent damage with those spells? Rrrright not much really: 0 traits required and scrapper can run paladin amy (so still be able to invest in survival). Not to mention those spells all have secondary utility like block or reflect so it is not like he only does damage with those.

How is 3k (on good day) single target PI is OP when there is warrior running around doing 7k instant aoe damage covering whole point while having by far better survival than thief? Or let’s take your beloved mesmer with undodgable/unkitable shatters because clones run at 300% speed and teleport on top of you even across the map. I am not even going to start on double quickness moa (animation shows after moa is already in effect) which messes up necros more than PI will ever do.

Again, you invest nothing into a condi removal line and choose to take a DPS line instead. Look at the scrapper build, every single line is defensive.

A thief can run paladins and get the same damage out of PI, basically any amulet that adds 1050 power and pack runes and you hit as hard as marauder with it so no, you don’t need to run a dps amulet tbh.

What gap closer are you giving up to take PI? If you’re meaning the choice to use headshot instead of shadowshot then that’s a choice depending on circumstance. If you’re playing well you use the headshot to interrupt them being able to recover from a spike in damage or you use shadowshot to close in and finish them. Heaven forbid you play a class where when they use a skill to gap close it’s gone for 30s+.

The damage on scrapper skills is strong, you’ve seen me say it before so I don’t see why you keep bringing it up.

They changed Moa so the signet appears above the mesmer at the start of casting now. Arc divider is silly strong, many people have said how making it a huge AoE is essentially guaranteed adrenal healing but that has nothing to do with the thread. Neither does “unevadable shatters” as you put it as this thread is about PI.

You haven’t asked my opinion on half the things you assume I’m OK with and keep presuming I’m ok with other things I think are grossly overtuned. I’m asking you to please stop derailing the thread and these constant assumptions for the sake of the thread.

Omg, do you even know what EA is lol?
Actually you need maradeur amy on thief otherwise you won’t be able to do enough damage to anyone lol.
So you agree that to use IP you might give up gap closer. Good. So you proved yourself wrong.
Classes that have gap closers on 30+ CD also have absurd amount of survival and on point presence….
I bring it up to show the overall picture. IP doesn’t need nerf if you don’t see thief in vacuum.
Signet appears after moa takes effect if you have quickness running…..
Actually arc divider is good example what is really strong. IP is not in comparison. Thing is, you just don’t want us to bring up spells from other classes because you just want to get IP nerfed.

This is not derailing thread, it is valid point to bring other classes into picture if we are talking about changes to a class because the change you ask for WILL affect thief standing vs other classes and it would be moronic to ignore that fact.

No, we all want to pvp. Reason why we are afraid of losing is because matchmaking is horrible and chances that you get bad match are high. Reasons?
1. everyone want short queue times so MM throes w/e into same match
2. there is no meaningful motivation to keep high rated players playing (decay is laughable, no minimal requirements for top 250) so they just afk for the season and those few that do play get paired/play against players of way lower ranks (and obviously not as skilled).

I personally would prefer to sit in 10 min queue for quality match than sit in 1 min queue for match that will be really bad and most likely cost me like 20 rating. They also need to put min. 100 games player or so requirement for being in top 250.

apharma.3741:

Azukas.1426:

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

This has not been refuted and pretty much shut the door on ANY argument for the nerfing of thief.

Until one you can prove this wrong this thread is over and the mods should lock it for spam/trolling/etc.

Thank you and /thread

The thing is this entire thread is about pulmonary impact not whether or not thief is OP. Is PI OP? At a 3.28 multiplier it is undoubtedly strong especially considering there’s been a trend of increasing cast times on skills to allow interrupting them. When you also consider how little you have to invest to make it strong too (all you need is power) it’s obvious to many it is far too rewarding for what it is.

Turning round and making the thread about the thief as a whole is derailing it as many thief mains like yourself have done. Especially when the common responses only derail the thread even more after some people have tried to get it back on track.

That is not true:
- you give up condi removal for it
- you give up gap closers, stealth for it since you use ini for headshot instead of other spells
- you actually have to run dps amy for it to do meaningful dmg….
- you actually have to successful interrupt the target and that is not as easy as you would think due to nature of other classes (pulsing stab, blinds, blocks etc.)

Now let’s do a little comparison here: take scrapper hammer. Most skills have basically backstab multiplies. How much does scrapper have to invest to do decent damage with those spells? Rrrright not much really: 0 traits required and scrapper can run paladin amy (so still be able to invest in survival). Not to mention those spells all have secondary utility like block or reflect so it is not like he only does damage with those.

How is 3k (on good day) single target PI is OP when there is warrior running around doing 7k instant aoe damage covering whole point while having by far better survival than thief? Or let’s take your beloved mesmer with undodgable/unkitable shatters because clones run at 300% speed and teleport on top of you even across the map. I am not even going to start on double quickness moa (animation shows after moa is already in effect) which messes up necros more than PI will ever do.

Moises.2196:

Cynz.9437:

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

or… you can just stow weapon, which is free….

as someone mentioned above, how it is any different to confusion?

Cynz, if IP was nerfed what would the other classes have to give up to justify it in your opinion? give an example plz if you can.

tl/dr: it would take too many changes to other classes to make up for PI nerf and it would just cause huge rage across all GW2 communities (especially pve) so i am not sure if it is really that good of an idea. Given current state of classes, i do not think PI is broken or thief for that matter.

Ok. Let’s assume PI gets nerfed and can’t compete with EA anymore. This would lead to overall lower damage done by thief. To make up for it, thief would need to rely more on backstab.
Problem with backstab atm
1. it got nerfed way too many times in the past (CD, dmg nerf etc.)
2. it puts thief in really bad spot forcing him to eat all AoE flying around
3. due to nature of backstab (requires stealth etc.) it gets heavily hardcountered by blinds, blocks, passives etc. I know there are some highlights on youtube showing thieves doing 10k backstabs but our average backstab is like 3k on a good day due to passives etc.

So, imo, it would take a lot of changes to make bs worth of use again.

Problem 1: CD needs to go, this change was uncalled for on first place.

Problem 2: either massive AoE spam needs to go from all classes or thief needs ways to deal with it. Changing all classes like this would require a lot of work, take also pve into account – it won’t happen. Only way would be giving thief some kind of buff while in stealth to deal with AoE, e.g. reduce damage taken from all sources (ik there is SA trait, but SA itself is laughable compared to DD atm so nobody will take it) – but then everyone would cry that they can’t kill thief and stealth camping would be even more prevalent.

Problem 3: as with problem 2, it would require quite few nerfs to survival of other classes. Let’s assume Anet does implement it. It would once again heavily affect raids, wvw and interaction between those classes. Anet could also give thieves better way to land backstab (e.g. make it unblockable/ignoring protection if landed from behind on X CD) but then people relying on all their passives will cry rivers that they are dying to backstab.

Bottom line: thief is a glassy damage dealer that gave up everything but mobility and stealth for damage. They are meant to do damage. Regardless in what way they are dealing damage, players will be never satisfied and will complain about the class. The joke is, thief damage is still 99% single target, unlike traps and co.

I think dissatisfaction doesn’t come from the damage itself (in case of PI, as someone mentioned before, it works same way as confusion) but from the fact that thieves are so slippery and force enemy to time their skills and participate in mind games. Your average Joe is not interested in it, they just want to press their button, soak damage and mash things.

P.S. Sindrener is known to be reasonable (unlike certain mes main), so if he says PI is fine then there is nothing more to discuss, imo.
P.S.S. people accuse Sind of lying – i’ve seen everything now.

OP, you should try out Matthias – that is true king of bad RNG. He can mark same raid member multiple times in a row with corruption, fields etc. so you have to run, except running is being punished very heavily during the fight. And even if you survived that, he just decides it is your time to get sacrificed, so you won’t even get chance to cast anything.

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

or… you can just stow weapon, which is free….

as someone mentioned above, how it is any different to confusion?

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

They already nerfed every single core thief spec in previous patch….. there was never exception on first place. Why are you posting misinformation?

Traps are oppressive, scrapper hammer is oppressive, 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD is oppressive, aoe spam is oppressive, condi spam is oppressive, passives are oppressive, high update on blocks is oppressive…. what about those?

I can survive thief jumping on me and using IP as a thief/necro w/o relying on blocks, heals etc. Why can’t you? Pro tipp: use LoS if you really need to use long cast.

Put the rage away Cynz. They haven’t nerfed a single thief trait since HoT in fact thief is the absolute most buffed core spec since HoT. If you’re referring to the spec patch can you at least have the decency to read and think about what I posted before raging on the forum?

Doesn’t change what I said Cynz, if you’re not near something to Los behind (and why the eff isn’t the thief sticking to you like glue to kill you?!) most of the time you’re done for.

They nerfed all stealth attacks which was a hefty nerf to all core builds… Of course they didn’t nerf thief traits because thief was total garbage at HoT launch.

Also, they only class that would be “done for” is necros maybe. Rest have ways to deal with thief…. Every point has some kind of LoS… if you can’t abuse it, not thieves fault. Surely, thief has means to stick to target, but nothing stops you from abusing JP or running around pillar – both works well since thief can’t port to target on uneven terrain.

apharma.3741:

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

They already nerfed every single core thief spec in previous patch….. there was never exception on first place. Why are you posting misinformation?

Traps are oppressive, scrapper hammer is oppressive, 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD is oppressive, aoe spam is oppressive, condi spam is oppressive, passives are oppressive, high update on blocks is oppressive…. what about those?

I can survive thief jumping on me and using IP as a thief/necro w/o relying on blocks, heals etc. Why can’t you? Pro tipp: use LoS if you really need to use long cast.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

I main mesmer, you won’t get any sympathy from me over reactionary nerfs to your class. As to your question, why should those be brought up in a thread specifically about thief and their skills? Other class’s nerf discussions don’t belong in this thread.

- I don’t need your sympathy – this is not what class balance should be based on anyway. My point is, when such QQ threads about thief appear, Anet just nerfs the crap out of the class without doing anything about other classes. But yeah, thanks for confirming my point: people just want to delete thief from pvp because of their personal preferences.

- Why not? You want the class to be nerfed without taking into consideration state of other classes.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

@Moises.2196: yeah i agree. As i said it wouldn’t be issue with IP nerf IF other elite specs get nerfed (go play core vs elite, you will know what i mean), as it is right now, people just ask for flat out DD nerfs without any consideration of the state of other classes.

mysterion.1276:

Cynz.9437:

mysterion.1276:

It’s not about them counting as dead, if they go down it takes 10 seconds for them to die, if they relog they will be dead immediately.

So let’s punish players for wonky servers? …. How about no?

I never had a server problem in years and I dont know a person that does either, if you dc thats your fault for not haveing a stable connection

I am sry but when there is 30% package loss or 2k ms on last hop to Anet server, then it is server issue. If it never happened to you, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Check reddit from couple weeks ago, there were hundreds of players that couldn’t login or load into maps because authorization servers died.

mysterion.1276:

It’s not about them counting as dead, if they go down it takes 10 seconds for them to die, if they relog they will be dead immediately.

So let’s punish players for wonky servers? …. How about no?

Lordrosicky.5813:

Blocks = necro has none
Instant cast skills = necro has none
Stability = basically none
Blinds = will never land it on a thief
Invulns = none
Projectile hate = 1 utility which is bad
Stow weapon = If I do this I will just die to 1 spam anyway

So what does a necro do vs PI? Thief and mesmer have always killed necros. But it is particularly bad currently.

- necro with blocks would be insane
- no instants? how about we don’t lie here (ds, procs and co. don’t exist eh?)
- you get stab in DS, that is still by far more than thief himself has lol
- actually you have multiple ways to land blind, if i can do it on my necro then anyone can
- necros with invuls would be nightmare, you have high HP pool, DS and perma weakness to mitigate the damage
- it is still an utility, it is your choice not to take
- thief, unlike other classes can either cast interrupt (beside steal) or use AA, not both at the same time…. count interrupts, if they spam it, they will be out of ini and you can murder them; if they don’t spam it you wouldn’t be taking much dmg from IP on first place….

So what does necro do vs thieves? Load them with condis and pray that your fellow ele heals you, just like vs any class really. I can also ask you question: what does scrapper do vs necro in current state? It is so stupidly one sided it is not even funny, i don’t see you asking for necro nerfs though… where are they, Henry?

Please nerf paper, scissors are ok. With love, rock!

Moises.2196:

Ok so it’s not so much about the personal play style that I want but the fact that shadow shot does 3 things. It deals good damage, blinds (defend), and close the gap. This skill simply does too much. The thing with PI is that it makes head shot do too much and it can me spammed. Interrupts are flexible and can be used to defend yourself or to apply pressure to the enemy and PI now adds damage to it. Fight a Daredevil with your core thief and you’ll see the issue (unless your spamming shadow shot yourself or spamming d/d 3 condi). And yes, all other classes need huge nerfs too, primarily with their defensive abilities which is what led to the removal of tank amulets. Also, that 1s stealth attack nerf was completely uncalled for and I agree with you there. I understand the frustration with seeing people post nerfs on thief when it can barely 1v1 even though the description of the class says “They’re deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies.” ,but you have to understand that just because all the other classes are broken, it doesn’t mean we should ignore this class’ problems. There needs to be a huge nerf starting with elite specs and then fixing core issues that were forgotten about.

There are a lot of spells that do multiple things, e.g. BF from mes, necro wells (e.g. wells on my build corrupt condis, do damage and give me protection) etc. Should we gut them all?

I actually play core on my alt account because it has no HoT (it is also in plat, as my main), i have no issue fighting DD thieves ironically. I actually have more issue fighting other elite specs because core doesn’t have IP and has to rely on overnerfed backstab which doesn’t work so well on passive overloaded crap introduced with HoT (e.g. all hammer skills on scrapp hammer). Because i play core, i don’t see why weaponset itself should be nerfed. It already struggles as it is.

I agree that DD needs nerfing but only if other elite specs see meaningful nerfs. As it is right now, people just ask for plain DD nerfs – that is all. I don’t agree with it, i still have flashbacks from s1 when i got constantly reported and griefed for simply playing the class before the match even started because thief was in such sad state – i don’t want the same history repeat again.

Hello not so Helseth, Kittymeowmeowmeowmeow!

I am in plat, playing thief/necro/scrapper, what do i do when enemy team has Misha(mes), Sindrener(thief), Zan(scrapper), Fraelina (insert any class here) and my team doesn’t have amazing Lord Helseth (or any top players for that matter)!? The Misha/Sind duo always push for our home and tend to camp it all match. What do, oh amazing not so Helseth Kittykittymeowmeow?

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

As said before, there is plenty of counterplay including blocks, blinds, stab, invuls, dodges, counter-cc, instants, reflects, projectile hate, stow weapon etc. Even if you play class that doesn’t have much access to it, you have other tools like lot of heals or counter pressure. Also, thing is – it is just a source of damage, should we ask for revs damage to be removed from sword? DH traps do no damage? This is literary what you are asking for. You will get hit by something, it will do damage to your character, deal with it. It is not like IP does actually insane damage (ca. 3k on good day on squishy) compared to other classes. How is it any different than warrior using near instant arcing slice that does 7k+ damage with huge aoe range or scrappers having damage multiplies similar to backstab on every spell?

I see necros complain about thief however 1. there should be some kind of way to deal with necros otherwise they would rampage like in s2 (do you know how it is for scrappers to deal with necros right now? yeahhhh hopeless) 2. have you ever played thief vs half decent necro as a thief? You will get instagibbed by their 10000 of procs and AoE if you mess up once, it is not like thief has easy ride vs any class right now. Even attacking necros already gives you condis w/o necro actually doing anything and you complain about thief successfully landing his interrupt….

Thief is about only class in this game that is still mainly about active gameplay (you actually have to time and press your buttons instead of relying on 109238018230 passives and instants), still heavily depends on team, can’t hold point to save their lives nor fight any class 1v1 on point and you ask for nerfs? If you want damage nerf for thieves, sure, BUT only for elite spec, revert of all backstab nerfs and only if other classes get heavily nerfed as well (a lot would need to change) which will not happen given how Anet balanced things in the past.

As far as revs go, you guys have plenty of tools to deal with thief (blocks, evades, blinds, stab, CC), good revs still murder everything on their way. If they can do it vs other good players, why can’t you? You have to rely on team to do well? Well, newsflash – it has been like this for roamers for years now, welcome to the club. Claiming that thief doesn’t rely as much on team is just plain lie. Frankly, due to their dependency on stealth, they rely more on someone sitting in point than any other class.

You know some people DC? Also NCSoft servers love to kick players to character screen (can be easily seen on tracert), it happened to me quite few times. You want to punish players for wonky servers? How about no? Pretty sure logging off counts as death, last time i checked, because i have seen people rally of it. Also i am sure in the time person logs off, selects character, logs back in, runs back to point – they lost plenty of time, even if they play on super computer.

Zintrothen.1056:

My problem with Thief isn’t so much that they can nearly spam a ranged daze (not to say that that isn’t OP as hell against professions with little stability), but it’s their OP AA damage (which can be dropped now for PvP’s sake and kept up for PvE’s sake, now that they’re splitting skills) and Shadow shot’s damage. Shadows hot is one of those skills that does a lot for one skill. It teleports, it’s ranged, it’s cheap, and it hits insanely hard when combined with a quick AA burst. My suggestions for D/P nerfs are:

• Lower AA damage in PvP only.*
• Slash Shadow shot damage significantly*
• Increase Headshot initiative by 1.*

And now, to help make up for the drop in damage:

- Make extra initiative gain from Trickery baseline. Move initiative spent damage increase to replace it. Lead Attacks does too much for a minor trait.
- Move boon steal with Steal to a GM other than Sleight of Hand.
- Make 20% Steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand baseline. Keep Trickery based Steal reduction.
- Make some changes to improve Critical Strikes line.
- Add a Stealth Attack damage bonus to Shadow Arts. Why is there no trait that boosts Stealth Attack damage? Critical Strikes has a critical strike increase for those attacks, but that’s a plain damage boost.

With a damage reduction to weapon skills, Thieves will need to get that damage back through traits and sacrificing the Trickery line, which is impossible to sacrifice right now because it’s far too powerful.

Or, instead of boosting damage, they could boost some other utilities or change some weapon skills to be more defensive and allow Thieves to work better in team fights and be able to do a different role. Who knows if that’s at all possible though at this point.

So you want to nerf core build……because AA and ss is OP according to you? How about no? Once again, given current state of class what justifies your suggestions?

Trickery will be always mandatory in pvp due to utility.

So far in this thread:
- nerf IP
- nerf headshot
- nerf AA
- nerf shadowshot

Anything else? Delete the class maybe? I mean realistically, how do you expect thieves to compete if you want to strip their damage all together (you already achieved with all the QQ that backstab is worthless in 90% of cases)?
We all saw what happened when thieves couldn’t make a dent in other classes HP (still the case for some classes) – yes, nobody wanted to play the class in any game mode and you would get reported if you brought thief to ranked game. Is THIS what you want?

Ross Biddle.2367:

Cynz.9437:

XxsdgxX.8109:

Cynz.9437:

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Revs needed nerfs badly, they are roamers after all and roamers are not supposed to be so stupidly strong (Anet logic, not mine). Not to mention until all HoT specs (rev including) get nerfed, there should be no buffs.

thief main

So? Why should Anet treat revs differently than thieves? Welcome to the club.

Dunno, your post is ironic since thieves atm are the ones that are stupidly strong.

In what exact way?

Dude, thief is stupid powerful at the moment, and the excuse is that it doesn’t give boons to a party so it is way overtuned in every other aspect.

You didn’t answer my question. I can also say “dude, rev is stupid powerful!!!”

Thief post-HoT crimes are: Evade spam
in conjunction with: High damage
in conjunction with: High mobility

The one saving grace for the playerbase is that most people playing thief are sub-optimal at it. Truly experienced thieves who know who and when to engage, and in a manner that always produces results are what highlight the thieves evil potential.

Obviously in a post-HoT world, Thief needs its evade spam, and can’t exist without its high damage and high mobility. It also suffers bad matchups and a world full of post-HoT aoe death spam, somewhat limiting (or making difficult) it’s life.

Thieve’s issue is now as it always has been. The difference from the Thieves side of things is just that his opponents have more in their kitten nal to help deal with him, making it a more dangerous world. Personally I don’t have much of an issue with Thief, but I do understand how frustrating of a class they are simply because their unique mechanic (much like rev has its unique mechanic) have given it an unreasonable edge.

Here’s a fun question, if Thief were removed from the game, would it make for a more enjoyable pvp experience?

What can you say about other classes crimes? Too high dmg, too much survival, too much moblity for amount of survival, too much CC, too much AoE etc.
Thieves still remain only class that you don’t want to stack on your team for a reason.

There were no thieves in season 1 in pvp (besides few hipsters like myself) – was it really enjoyable experience? From my experience and from all the feedback i saw so far s1 was supposedly worst season as far as class balance goes.
I also have been in plenty of matches this season w/o any thieves in both teams (was playing scrapper myself) – was it really so much more fun or different? Not really. It was just brainless bunkerfest on points. Good thief forces you to have 1 eye on map 24/7, which i think is a good thing because players with 0 awareness get punished, good players with good map awareness make thief obsolete.

Not to mention most pug teams don’t even know how to play with a thief on team which makes him even more useless -> easy 5v4 for enemy team.

OriOri.8724:

Impacting Disruption definitely needs an ICD, even if its fairly low (3-5 seconds). I just don’t understand why ANet put in an on interrupt trait with not ICD for a class that can spam interrupts back to back. Whether or not its good play on the thief’s part to do that doesn’t change the fact that its ridiculous to have the trait proc so quickly, even more so because it deals a large amount of unblockable damage. A simple ICD on the trait would be fine.

@Cynz – Since you main thief I honestly cannot believe that you are defending this. According to you, the only things that thief has is IP and their auto attack, so from that standpoint it would make more sense to nerf IP while redoing thief so that it doesn’t have to rely on just these two things to be viable.

Did OP suggest anything else beside flat out nerf that would also affect core build? NO. “Nerf nerf nerf nerf plz everything that annoys me and punishes me for mindless spam!!!” – that is all i saw so far.

I would be all on the nerf wagon with OP if thief was actually broken like DH or war but it is not. It is still one of the least desired classes in pvp. Worse, the more thieves you have on your team the higher chances are that you will lose the match. I can simply ignore thief on my scrapper – this is how threating they are and OP asks for dmg nerfs……

Also IP has CD since it is bound to successfully LANDING (not just brainless fire and forget how other classes do) interrupt (which is either CD or costs initiative).

You know you can just stow weapon, watch thief waste 2-3 headshots (does 1 dmg lol) and then continue to murder him because they would have no ini left.
Anet heavily nerfed backstab, all that is left is IP and AA. What do you expect thieves to do? Maybe remove weapons all together? They do dmg after all, so OP!!!

99% of thief dmg is single target and not even highest one in game. Shall we talk about (passive and aoe!!!!) damage from other classes? Yeahhhhhh…..

Also nerfing headshot would make it obsolete as it is intended for interrupts and it would also nerf core build….. for no good reason.

As long as elite specs are built around mindless spam of spells i think IP is only cure. Stop spamming everything, keybind stow weapon = problem solved. Only time i die to PI is when i don’t pay attention which l2p issue on my side.

Thief is finally not trash tier anymore (still nowhere near being OP and braindead like wars and DHs) and people ask for nerfs already…..

@Vargamonth.2047: where were you when revs literary deleted thieves from pvp? I didn’t see you care much about fairness back then.There is class that can make you work to get wins on your main instead of spamming everything off-cd. How all the rev mains told the thieves in previous seasons: deal with it. How about we cut dmg from rev procs by 50% – sounds like fair proposal!

XxsdgxX.8109:

Cynz.9437:

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Revs needed nerfs badly, they are roamers after all and roamers are not supposed to be so stupidly strong (Anet logic, not mine). Not to mention until all HoT specs (rev including) get nerfed, there should be no buffs.

thief main

So? Why should Anet treat revs differently than thieves? Welcome to the club.

Dunno, your post is ironic since thieves atm are the ones that are stupidly strong.

In what exact way?

Dude, thief is stupid powerful at the moment, and the excuse is that it doesn’t give boons to a party so it is way overtuned in every other aspect.

You didn’t answer my question. I can also say “dude, rev is stupid powerful!!!”

On that note i think Foefire Lord needs some condi cleanse or resistance. He can heal himself vs direct dmg but has literary nothing vs condis. Given that he is too oldfashioned (unlike newer HoT AI) to walk out of harmful AoE, they could have at least give him some resistance and/or condi cleanse. We are still in condi heavy meta and unless you park an ele or druid to babysit the lord you can’t prevent him from getting instantly nuked by condi bomb.

P.S. just in case, due to bad experience from the past: Lord is an NPC in Foefire map, not a real person -_-

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

Good suggestions. Well said. Need more than that though. Reduced evade frame on blurred frenzy makes sense too.

I don’t agree. I think HoT specs should be gradually nerfed to core spec levels and core shouldn’t get touched until then. BF was never an issue.

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Revs needed nerfs badly, they are roamers after all and roamers are not supposed to be so stupidly strong (Anet logic, not mine). Not to mention until all HoT specs (rev including) get nerfed, there should be no buffs.

thief main

So? Why should Anet treat revs differently than thieves? Welcome to the club.

Dunno, your post is ironic since thieves atm are the ones that are stupidly strong.

In what exact way?

Burn.5401:

Cynz.9437:

Revs needed nerfs badly, they are roamers after all and roamers are not supposed to be so stupidly strong (Anet logic, not mine). Not to mention until all HoT specs (rev including) get nerfed, there should be no buffs.

thief main

So? Why should Anet treat revs differently than thieves? Welcome to the club.

Revs needed nerfs badly, they are roamers after all and roamers are not supposed to be so stupidly strong (Anet logic, not mine). Not to mention until all HoT specs (rev including) get nerfed, there should be no buffs.

The only thing i would nerf right now is
1. CS shouldn’t affect ult
2. clones should stop running at 300% speed otherwise it makes dodging shatter pointless

You need to be pro league player and carry 1v5 matches to climb in the current system? Ok, got it.

I am guessing as long as some condi is ticking on Lord, it will continue.

The problem is, people complained about long queue times, so the system just throws anyone into match for the sake of shorter queue times and calls it a day. Worst part it doesn’t even attempt to spread higher rated players evenly across 2 teams, it just stacks high rated into one team and low rated into another. There is no “fair” matchmaking in this game and your rating is based purely on luck.

ArthurDent.9538:

Cynz.9437:

Thief has been getting nerfed almost every patch for 4 years now. We are kind of used to it heh. I honestly don’t remember when there was a patch that had any thief changes that made any sense (they butchered backstab so badly, it is useless in 90% of the time). Only thing they ever do is buffing condi or builds that from design perspective are just bad and need rework, not some % changes.

Thief and warrior are the most buffed/least nerfed classes since hot release by far. It has been quite a long time since thief has received a substantial nerf other than the whole second cd on stealth attacks. All the other classes have been getting hefty nerfs.

CD on all stealth attacks thus nerfing every single weapon set for no good reason at all was a huge nerf. They removed double stack from basi venom as well. Thief has been absolute garbage since june patch last year, if Anet did any more massive nerfs they might have just delete the class all honestly. I have been getting reported consistently for simply playing thief class in season 1 – this is how bad it was.

As far as buffs go, most of them for conid builds and things, as i said, that need complete redesign and not some crappy % change that will have 0 impact.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Cynz.9437:

I had matches with/below 1700 players + me 1887 on my team vs people in 1800-1900+ range on enemy team during prime time. Take a guess how it went. I also have been in matches with double duoq of top 5 players (2100) vs 1800 team #workingasintended.

The entry point to the top 250 is roughly around 1750 in North America. While who holds that #250 position is bound to fluctuate, there’s no way there are more than 400 total players above 1700 at any given time. And there’s no way all those 400 players are going to be online at the same time—or even a fraction of them.

You’re going to play with people in gold, even during prime time. It’s just how it is. It’s how it has always been, in every season. The game mode just isn’t popular enough to keep you playing with/against people within ~50 rating of you every single match, especially when you’re nearing legendary.

It is 1830+ for EU last time i checked….

You actually think it is ok to have by far lower ranked teams vs top 10 players? Why have MM on first place then? Let’s just throw everyone in same match together!

Lordrosicky.5813:

Fresh air is horrible for the game. It is huge instant spikes with no visual tell and the burst is instant. It should not be viable.

lol this^^

they would have to nerf ele dmg if they buffed FA….

Lordrosicky.5813:

Ialdir.8726:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Everyone knows it.

Time to act. All fair minded players need to support this initiative. For too long have these professions kept the others down with their op kitten.

Thief = way too much sustain and evasion for the mad dps. It warps the game and is way too good.

My proposals:
Reduce pulmonary impact damage by 25%. Passive dps should not be so good when thief has a spammable insta cast ranged interrupt. Like really…

This is the most dumb idea I’ve seen on the forums in a long time. ‘Like really.’ What you want to be nerfed isn’t pulmonary impact, but it is the ricidulous amount of dodges a staff thief or acro thief has. Remove the evade frame on #3 for staff, and nerf acrobatics, and now we are getting somewhere. I mean, do you really want this to be bunker wars 2? And speak for yourself, next time please.

I couldn’t agree more. Not PI is the problem, the vault spamming build appears to be a bit out of order.

OT: I like how a necromancer complains about passive procs (which PI obviously is not btw).

Pi cannot be countered. It is a joke. Fix needed.

PI is procced if you successfully (key word here) interrupt target. Interrupt can be easily countered by stab, blind, block, invul OR simply not attack (stow weapon is your friend) for sec and watch thief waste ini…. take a guess how you deal with PI as a thief that has 0 protection, blocks, invuls and crappiest healing capability in game?

kdaddy.5431:

Dawdler.8521:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Not really, cc’s/blocks kill warriors. Someone skilled with a warrior is always gonna be tough, but then that’s goes for anyone.

You can CC and block a warrior all you want – they’re still gonna regen 1000 hp/s.

I wonder how all those top 15 players not playing warrior do it all the time?

Its like some crazy thing where you dodge the F1 skill and they cant heal.

Its this insane mechanic, or like blinding a warrior when he goes for a burst skill.

Also to the OP of the thread may i see a screen shot? Ive only seen one 3-4 warrior team this season and we lost.

Because top players constantly face players waaaaay below their rating (sup half of LB is afk for season) so they just get easy farm most matches.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Cynz.9437:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Burjis.3087:

It seems to me, that advancing up the ladder is almost impossible for me unless I have a win rate of above 70% based on the amount of points I lose and gain.

Just curious, but why do you think you should advance up the ladder without winning at least 2 out of every 3 games?

That you have to have a win rate of 70% or better to advance up the ladder is kind of the point; if you’re hovering around a 50% win rate, you’re probably exactly where you should be.

You assume that matchmaking creates fair matches LOL. Newsflash: it doesn’t. Of course, game can’t measure all player skills but it doesn’t even attempt to create fair matches based on measurable numbers like MMR and rating….

Why do you think the system creates unfair matches? What makes them so?

If MM can’t find people in same range within a min it just throws anything it can find in a match which results in absolutely lopsided matches for the sake of short queue times.

I had matches with/below 1700 players + me 1887 on my team vs people in 1800-1900+ range on enemy team during prime time. Take a guess how it went. I also have been in matches with double duoq of top 5 players (2100) vs 1800 team #workingasintended.

BennyKay.6139:

during low population times, the game would rather allow you to play with people that may be outside your range (not horribly) than have you wait in a long long queue. This is done purposely since one of the biggest complaints in previous seasons was queue times. Its give or take. Would you rather a near perfect match OR have speedy queue times. Cant always have both.

I would prefer longer queue times because at the end you are just wasting a lot of time for matches that cost you rating.

Shaogin.2679:

Cynz.9437:

Medex.1504:

Chilli.2976:

Show ranks at the end of the game.

Thats kinda pointles with the new ranking system, since its division based (bronze vs bronze, silver vs silver, …), and it does not help during a match.

The problem is at the start of the match and “pro” players raging during the match, so ranks at the end of the game …. well you get the picture.

They wouldn’t do it – it would show glaring issue with matchmaking. If you are not lazy, ask your teammates and enemies what rating they are (or check LBs if you are high enough) – you would be amazed of HOW actually broken matchmaking is.

Yeah, I’ve been looking in to this situation for awhile now. I wouldn’t say matchmaking is completely broken, but it definitely has some flaws that are causing issues during low population times. You can check out some of the results I’ve posted so far in the thread below.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Matchmaking-Question-3/page/2#post6454077

Do it for 1700 rating, it is way worse there. Since half of 250 is afking for the season and game attempts to keep 2 min queue limit, it just throws team of top 10 vs 1700 teams and calls it a day.

Thief has been getting nerfed almost every patch for 4 years now. We are kind of used to it heh. I honestly don’t remember when there was a patch that had any thief changes that made any sense (they butchered backstab so badly, it is useless in 90% of the time). Only thing they ever do is buffing condi or builds that from design perspective are just bad and need rework, not some % changes.

When thieves get 10000 passives, HP pool raise, blocks, invuls, multiple heals and multiple instant AoE dealing absurd amount of dmg like classes you play OP, then sureee.

Medex.1504:

Chilli.2976:

Show ranks at the end of the game.

Thats kinda pointles with the new ranking system, since its division based (bronze vs bronze, silver vs silver, …), and it does not help during a match.

The problem is at the start of the match and “pro” players raging during the match, so ranks at the end of the game …. well you get the picture.

They wouldn’t do it – it would show glaring issue with matchmaking. If you are not lazy, ask your teammates and enemies what rating they are (or check LBs if you are high enough) – you would be amazed of HOW actually broken matchmaking is.

Burn.5401:

When will this bad joke end? You’re forced to queue dodge in order to avoid a guaranteed bad matchup from your previous game every time, excluding maybe the prime evening hours. And don’t make the “small playerbase” excuse because I made sure more than 20 players at my rating were queueing at that time. And of course the players on both teams end up on the same sides every time, shouldn’t it be more random considering we’re all of “equal skill”?

Actually what bothers me a lot about current matchmaking is that 1. a lot of alt accounts/NA players on EU/season afkers taking top spots and not playing regularly which leads to 2. stacked teams of top 10-25 consistently facing teams of 1700-1800 rating (how does it even happen, blows my mind, no way those teams have nowehere near similar overall MMR, it doesn’t even attempt to mix the teams). It leads to absolutely lopsided matches (how the hell am i supposed to win games with people zerging 4v1 vs teams consisting of pro league players?) and even if you manage to win vs those top 10 you gain almost nothing. It happens over and over and over again and is beyond discouraging and demotivating. Would you queue if you knew you are guaranteed to lose?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Burjis.3087:

It seems to me, that advancing up the ladder is almost impossible for me unless I have a win rate of above 70% based on the amount of points I lose and gain.

Just curious, but why do you think you should advance up the ladder without winning at least 2 out of every 3 games?

That you have to have a win rate of 70% or better to advance up the ladder is kind of the point; if you’re hovering around a 50% win rate, you’re probably exactly where you should be.

You assume that matchmaking creates fair matches LOL. Newsflash: it doesn’t. Of course, game can’t measure all player skills but it doesn’t even attempt to create fair matches based on measurable numbers like MMR and rating….