Guild Wars 2

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

Lordrosicky.5813:

That isn’t true at all on EU. You queue most evenings and almost everyone in the top 200 will be on and queuing actively.

If it was true, i wouldn’t be sitting with gold teammates facing top 5 duoqs.

5-12 PM is the only time you will get good matches though

I have normal office job so i wouldn’t be able to play in odd hours (e.g. 5 am – 2 pm) beside weekend (and vacation duhh) anyway. The problem is there even during prime time.

Lordrosicky.5813:

That isn’t true at all on EU. You queue most evenings and almost everyone in the top 200 will be on and queuing actively.

If it was true, i wouldn’t be sitting with gold teammates facing top 5 duoqs.

When comparing condis to direct damage people forget few things:

1. condis ignore toughness/armor. You could argue that people have condi cleanse or resistance but same goes for blocks/protection etc. vs direct dmg.
2. condis have side effects like healing reduction or preventing player from casting skills because they were meant as utility originally and not burst damage. Imagine backstab would stun you or put your heal on extra CD – yeaaaah, this is exactly how condis work atm.
3. condis require 1 stat to work where for proper direct damage you need at least 2 stats, 3 stats ideally.

Overall i think they shot themself in the knee when they allowed certain condis stack and increased their damage. Condis became so absurd that anti-condi measurements were needed and so powercreep was introduced in form of resistance and passive condi cleanses. There is no going back from this anymore.

I think Anet won’t change the damage condis do, however in this case condis need to lose their utility with more stacks, e.g. the more poison stacks you have the less (exponentially) is healing debuff or the less damage do confusion stacks if target casts a spell. It would be nightmare to programm (dot damage is generally nightmare to programm) but, as i said, devs created such rather unconfortable situation themself. Of course they can just ignore the issue :/

Evan Lesh.3295:

Cynz.9437:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

So we have to endure the bugs and flaws of the current system (that certain players abuse) until next season? Lovely… :/

Perhaps you’d understand if you researched a bit on game development. Should be tons of resources if you feel like googling; things like quality assurance, build processes, release management, etc.

I actually work as software developer, i am well aware it takes long time… just sad :/

I have reported this issue in December, you know?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Found a couple minor bugs in addition to the lack of reshuffling. I’ve also worked on a new version of the matchmaker that will improve roster size and profession matching. We will likely trial it during the off-season.

If I remember, I will update the wiki!

So we have to endure the bugs and flaws of the current system (that certain players abuse) until next season? Lovely… :/

Kind of in the same boat here. Can win games vs top 10 but still not good enough. Majority of matches are stupidly one sided. Double duoq of top 10 players vs my team consisting of gold, afk and me is a thing…. and it costs me a lot of points.

I like the path they chose for pvp system however matchmaking really needs some fixing.
Lopsided matches are still too frequent, higher rated players are forced to carry lower rated players vs better team (this happens A LOT) and even if you win such matches, they are extremely unrewarding point wise.
Same goes for winning/losing matches vs teams that are 400-500 ranks above you. Idk why but current system assumes that 1600-1800 equals 2200 and calculates rank gains/losses based on it. I don’t even know how it mathematically makes any sense.

Thanks to broken matchmaking, alt accounts of top players, people getting placed really high right away anf afking for whole season (which leads to uneven matches due to lack of players in higher tiers) etc. people are scared of losing their ranks (for good reason, system is simple not balanced, it is worse than poker gambling). Nobody wants to play and those who play wouldn’t team with you if you are not at exact same rank.

I actually ended up playing less with friends because of it :/

I hoped to pvp a lot this season but due to all issues mentioned above and just pure luck based MM i just play a game or 2 till i lose and then stop pvping :/ PvPing a lot at begin of the season led me to dropping from 1900 to 1600 due to never ending loses (hello 100-500 matches with my teammates being hudreds of ranks below the enemy team) for whole week. It took me ages to climb back and i don’t want such experience again. Why does the system have to force me into ratings where i can pretty much solo everything (yes, scrappers, DHs and wars included) and win 1v2 fights on my thief is beyond me.

Crinn.7864:

Current gen Necromancer is a far better Bunker killer than thieves are. However necro is countered hard by thieves. However if there are less thieves there will be more necros which in turn means less bunkers.

Possibly. I however doubt that there would be less bunkers if there were more necros. If anything there would be more bunkers/support to deal with said condi bombs. Also, as i necro i find mes and wars bigger threat than thief atm.

Cynz.9437:

I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why?

Correlation is not the same as Causation. *You’re assuming that the bunker meta was because of thieves being out of meta. *That’s not true though. Thieves where out of meta in s1-s3 because revs just did everything better.

WHERE did i say that, please show me. My point is that when there was no thieves people still prefered to play bunkers. Did you even read the post you just quoted?

@apharma.3741:
- point is, other classes have better damage capability than thief IF they chose to go dps. Whether they can survive with it, is different story. Also, we still have example of warrior pumping out way more dmg while also being extremely bunkery.

- maraduer scrapper has still more suvival than thief. What is your point?

- but you do have issues with thief doing damage atm, do you? Otherwise you wouldn’t be in this thread demanding IP nerf, or am i guessing wrong? If i am understanding right, IP should be nerfed because thieves stop FA eles from doing pvp, supposedly. By that logic, all dps classes and all supports and bunkers should be nerfed because they prevent thief from playing support.

- once again bringing up wvw is pointless. I am not going to respond to any wvw arguments anymore as it is completely irrelevant to pvp and game will never be balanced around that mode. Hi, i am raiding on ele and chrono, thieves are not welcome thus eles need to be nerfed and thieves buffed – your logic right here.

@Crinn.7864 thief saw few changes since s1, they also nerfed some mechanics that stopped thief damage completely (see DH traps, daze on gyros etc.).
Also, see below vv

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

So let me get this straight. You claim that thief is the only class that can bust bunkers. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant for the moment, but you claimed here that without thief in its current iteration, no other classes would be able to bust bunkers. How in the world can you honestly claim that the only class that can bust a bunker is not only underpowered and needs love, but also isn’t ridiculously broken given that he has all of that power on top of the highest mobility in the game? How can you honestly claim that this class is fine when you just admitted that you think thief is the only class that can bust a bunker?

I didn’t say thief bursts bunkers, thief does however help to deal with bunkers and bring variety to games. If thief/rev is gone we have nothing else but ppl afking on nodes because that is what other classes are built for. Presense of thief does force people to rotate hence why you would want to have something lighter (e.g. mes, rev or another thief) on your team to rotate as well. If i play a scrapper vs ele or another scrapper, we will never kill each other, the point will be contested all match long. If thief however helps me, i might cap the point since they fight will be over relatively quick. Thief by himself wouldn’t be able to kill those quickly either (if at all) but with combined help they can.

@apharma.3741: Fat wasn’t wrong, eles and mes do pump out more dmg if they build for it, it is their choice not to.
You do claim that thief hardcounters ele so much thus implying thief needs a nerf, where in fact issue lies with ele and not thief because dps ele is just generally not doing so well atm.

“They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of." is still in the same sentence. The sentence does state that thief has better defense than glass ele/ranger/mes/engi which is just wrong.

I play paladin scrapper because i play to hold point and not murder people. It is my choice. I may not spike people to death but i can hold point for extended period of time vs multiple enemies. So here is that. Surely, glass engi couldn’t do that but glass engi also play differently and frankly engi is not really meant to be a roamer atm, same as thief is not meant to be a point holder. It was Anet’s decision. I will never be good team support like ele or druid, same way as ele not going to be good dps spike roamer (unless Anet suddenly changes their opinion). What you basically claim, by the looks of it, is that it is wrong that thief is at least good at one role and shouldn’t have any at all.

“Do I also have to point out how ridiculous what you said is when there is a world of difference between the state of the game now and the state of the game in S1/2?”
I am well aware that meta has changed, point remains, when thieves didn’t exist (and s1 wasn’t only example for it), people still prefered to run bunker/bruiser builds. Why? Because of conquest.

Glass ele would also die to literary every single meta build so i don’t see your point here.

Also, wvw is completely irrelevant to pvp. Completely different mode, completely different objectives. If Anet did balance game around wvw, you wouldn’t be able to play your beloved mes in pvp at all.

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

Lol glass ele is completely countered by thief, saying otherwise only makes people give no merit to anything else you say. If running zerk an ele will literally die to a steal backstab, if running marauder they will live longer but given most ele weapons have substantial casts (all but dagger main hand) they’re easily farmed.

Ele cannot go glass because they will die very quickly and easily when focused by just about any class and easily outperformed by most classes within the high damage role. Need I remind you the original comment was about glass ele and glass mesmer not warrior and engy so stop bringing them up.

The comparison was made between glass ele/mes defences and thief, war and rev having better defences so I dunno why you keep bringing up engy, seems you just have an axe to grind at this point.

So is it thief preventing ele from going glass or just any class? Which is it, can you actually decide lol?

The comment i quoted refered to engis….. other posters can bring them up but i can’t now? What gives?

Once again, if thief is such an issue, why did nobody switch from bruiser/bunker builds in s1-2 when nobody played thief? I keep hearing same overused argument every year and yet i don’t see people going FA ele or glass engis or <insert any glass build here >, even in tourneys when there is no thief on either teams and people switch a lot. So what gives? Is thief really the issue or is it actually conquest?

I guess i should explain it in simple way. We have a problem A. Problem A i supposedly caused by X. X was removed. Problem A persists. Thus X is not the cause. Yet people in this thread, that don’t even know what cosume plasma is, are screaming that X is the cause even though we removed X trying to solve A. <<<this thread in summary.

Also, on side note, i am well aware that ele is stuck with support role for years now however thief is in no better place. Other classes got specs that extended their roles (e.g. ranger got support role, guard got ranged dps role, engis got decent dps build to add to their usual condi specs etc.), thief on other hand got just another acro v2. Same hit-and-run roaming role, literary nothing new. Not even remote variety of that roaming role. I personally really hoped thief would get something like druid spec so thief can switch to support instead of measy dps with high mobility heavily relying on teamates to hold the point.

Urejt.5648:

Pulmonary impact 2 seconds internal cooldown incomming

More like bunker meta incomming (hello s1 all over again) /facepalm.

Zenith.7301:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Pretty sure if said mesmer and ele were glass built like the thief is then they would be pumping out higher numbers but they are built for team fights.

No they wouldn’t, because they’d be hardcountered by glass thief/warrior immediately and would spend most of the fight dying to the thief class which has more instantaneous, less telegraphed damage, and far more mobility/disengage.

No other glass builds exist because thief/warrior/rev (nerfed to irrelevance now) farms pretty much any glass build. They have way better defenses and engage/disengage than any glass ele/ranger/mesmer/engineer could dream of.

There’s a reason ele can only exist as support and mesmer is a crappy version of thief as a roamer. There’s a reason druid only rolls support and engineer/necro are only condi.

This argument is extremely overused and really really wrong. Whole reason why other classes don’t run glass is because they have builds that offer them more in conquest.

There have been cases in the past when thief was extremely underplayed or not played at all (e.g. season 1), tournaments are great example, even now i have been in matches where there wasn’t a single thief on any team, yet people chose to run bunkier builds. Why? I mean there is no thief to murder them so why not run glassy builds? Because of nature of conquest. At the end of the day it is all about holding point and bruisers/bunkers exceel at it.

Also, what you said is wrong. Thieves don’t have better defense than wars or engis, whole reason why they are so mobile is because they cant stick to any fights due to their squishines. I play scrapper and necro and those are way tankier than my thief could ever be. The fun part, current meta war puts out way more dmg than thief (they can kill my necro way faster than thief) and is way tankier than thief as well.
Only reason why thief is still viable IS because it is so mobile. If thief didn’t have mobility it would be completely unviable. If you actually think that thief has better defense than all said classes, why don’t you go play one w/o running away, please record it so we all can see how tanky thieves are.

I pug Xera relatively frequently, have killed her quite few times w/o TS. So no, TS is not needed if people know what they are doing. I think only boss that somehow would requite TS is Sab since most ppl don’t pay attention to bombs, rest can be done w/o comms.

I highly doubt there is organized group that doesn’t use TS though. You probably would have better luck with pugs since those usually dont use vc.

Stand The Wall.6987:

maybe there aren’t that many players in the pool to begin with, so the matchmaking system grabs players usually outside of its normal parameters.

just maybe.

still doesn’t justify abysmal rating gains if you manage to win vs those teams and absurd rating loses

Ryuk.6840:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ryuk.6840:

When a thief player cannot understand that ‘’interupt spell’’ is created a in mind that is used to INTERUPT an attack and not chunk out 1/5 of your Hp with 0% mechanical skill needed and extremly small counter play …..then that why each game have a powercreep
….because the population thinks that that is ok and they should buff any other class …
(2013)

Which do you think is there an abudance ?
Theif initiative or long cds of stability/Projectile Hate for most classes ?

You literally didn’t answer the question, you said Thief Headshot punishes players for Moving, exactly how does the Thief Do that when the Meta Build everyone is whining about doesn’t inflict Torment so no punishment on moving? You are literally just making up excuses by trying to add everything and the kitchen sink to try and make an argument and it is showing you don’t really know what you are talking about.

Really small counter play? Every Meta build Sans, Thief, Necro and Revenant have access to a plethora of either Projectile Hate, Stability, Blocks, and Invulns, some have access to all of those, while others have A lot of access to some of those, oh yeah let’s not forget that quie a few Meta builds have Cc reflect as passives. So again there is absolutely no lack of Counter play to Headshot and PI, since that is what this thread is about.

So until they start needing every thing across the board PI is fine in this current environment, people just have to take responsibility and use the over abundance of defenses against it.

Again you are not answering a my question about who has more abudance of unfair gameplay …while you are trying try to use big paragraphs or big words to show that you know somethng ….
A Theifs that can spamm Headshot for 5-6k (sigil of fire/air/Rune of Vampirism ) +daze you for even using auto attack or snizzing from 900 yards with little of visible animetion
Or other classes ?

Oh so runes/sigils and co. are exclusive part of headshot now and reason why PI should be nerf lol. Ok….

Please go make a thief, go in ranked and spam headshot, don’t forget to record it so we can all see all those amazing 5k procs. Do it.

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

That person also implies that PI should be nerfed because it hit him for 5k…. he forgot to mention that it was thanks to external buffs…. should we nerf the class because he got help from 2 other players and invests into damage?….

- looks at all the posts/threads saying certain things on necro cant be fixed since the class is “OP” when supported by bunker classes like ele/egi/ranger. -

Also it shows that he fought 3 people ( not sure if Mesmer did any damage or just the stomp ), ate almost a full over load fire, more than 3 and a bit auto attack chains from dagger yet the thing that did the most damage even though it cannot crit was being interrupted twice…

Thief is not built around playing with mes and ele. In fact, thief is not built around playing with team where necro is designed for big fights…. not to mention we would probably see way bigger numbers from necro if he got same support.

Fire overload gives might in case you didn’t know, mes has high access to vulnerability…

We also don’t know whether he ate that dmg in downed state….

If you think PI is so OP, why don’t you go make a thief and run around spamming HS, lets see how far it will get you.

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

No need top be so rude and defensive with your lol :/ calm youself down!

All I proved was the claimes that you tried to refute that on average PI does ~4k..which is does. Above or below 90% doesnt matter.

Not sure what else you need. One person said they took 12k from 3 hits, you said, "post pics of death log, someone actually posted pics of a death log where they took a 2 hits for 10k, you said " well traits and conditions", then i put some math which averages around ~4k but i forget to put in the rune, make a post saying i missed it and you go , “lol 90% hp, other classes do things”.

That person also implies that PI should be nerfed because it hit him for 5k…. he forgot to mention that it was thanks to external buffs…. should we nerf the class because he got help from 2 other players and invests into damage?….

Rickster.8752:

Cynz.9437:

I am sitting in a match facing Sind/Rom duo (top 5 player), they are like 500 ahead of me, i have teammates in gold (according to my teammates info) and 1 afk. I lose wooping 11 ranks (1 win worth of points vs normal team) for this. Evan where does it fit, please tell me? In what world 2200 = 1700? 11 points loss vs team that is 500~ ranks above me. Is this what you call fair pvp system?

The point loss does not matter. You should never be placed in a game with those players. The system should be much slower about expanding its matchmaking criteria.

I agree however it also really bothers me how crappy the rating gains are. I have won matches vs top rank 1 before, but even if you win vs duoqs that are so much higher rated than you are, you still gain almost nothing in comparison. The rating gap is so huge yet it is absolutely unrewarding to win vs such teams and extremely punishing to lose vs them. For some reason the system assumes 1700 equals 2200 when it calculates rating gains/losses – wth?

Sigmoid.7082:

Cynz.9437:

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I forgot to edit my post as i didnt factor in that runes of the scholar is another 10%. You need to add another 10% to those damage ranges. So its more like 4.1k~5.6k on scholars and 3.5k~4.8k on soliders.

Actually its average is closer to 4k+ which is what people have been saying. Armour wise a scholar class with 560 toughness is very close to a solider class without any at all.

So I have proved their not yours.

Do you know how often thief is above 90% in fights when he comes to the point of using hs lol?

More so, you are implying IP is broken because thief invests into damage instead of picking more survival? Should i remind you on things like DH traps, that deal more than IP damage to EVERYONE, not a single target like IP. Same goes for necro marks etc. Sry but in grand picture 3k single target damage dealt by glass canon is hardly broken.

Problem is not duoq, problem is when MM for some reason stacks all top 10 duoqs vs full team of solo with 1700-1800 rating. It puzzles me how MM doesn’t even attempt to spread those duos across 2 teams.

Sigmoid.7082:

Just want to chime in again to those combating those who say PI does not do a lot of damage, namely in a reply to this:

Cynz.9437:

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

According to the wiki PI has an approx coefficient of 3.28. Though it cannot crit its still amongst one of the highest ( around eviserate and killshot rank 3). Because of damage modifiers from thief traits in the meta build it goes to a range of 3.25~4.44 without vulnerability.

With a base of 2225 power, e.g. no might, and no extra toughness from amulets or runes and no protection you are looking at 3753~5127 on a scholar class or 3176~4339 on a solider. These numbers increase with might , vulnerability and if they take executioner over improvisation. They also go down with higher armour and protection but even on a solider class with a 560 toughness amulet, 2727 armour, you are still looking at just over 2.3k with protection to around 3.5k damage without.

Skill has a theoretical max of around 11k but the build for that is yolo and unviable.

So on average it is 3k, not 5k as some claim here. Thanks for proving my point.

I am sitting in a match facing Sind/Rom duo (top 5 player), they are like 500 ahead of me, i have teammates in gold (according to my teammates info) and 1 afk. I lose wooping 11 ranks (1 win worth of points vs normal team) for this. Evan where does it fit, please tell me? In what world 2200 = 1700? 11 points loss vs team that is 500~ ranks above me. Is this what you call fair pvp system?

Unholey.3264:

Cynz.9437:

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log.

Just happened to see you say this while skimming over this thread. This was back during season 3. Not saying anything one way or the other, just providing some evidence.

I see mesmer and ele helping him. He probably also runs executioner. I am assuming you had crapload of vulnerability on you and thief had might stacks thank to mes/ele’s overload. PI is OP because ele and mes are helping the thief? Good joke.

Crinn.7864:

babazhook.6805:

Good players do not keep using skills as a person spamming headshot on them.

Tell me how to beat a thief without using abilities.

As for the rest of your post. You’re arguing from the position that PI thieves aren’t smart enough to manage initiative. The problem is that there are believe it or not, players smart enough to not waste headshot, and it’s impossible for a number of classes to handle that.

Right now for some classes the options are:
A) attempt to hit the thief and die from PI.
or
B) don’t use casts and die because you can’t win a fight without dealing damage.

Let’s assume that somehow magically you don’t have any instant spells, nor stability, nor blocks, nor blinds, nor stealth etc. What stops you from running behind some rock and cast your spells? There is plenty LoS, even around graveyard.

How come that i can beat DD thieves on my core (which has 0 blocks, 0 stab, only 2 dodges) and yet you can’t?

@OriOri.8724: i am not sure you are the right person to make suggestions regarding thief changes given your absolute lack of knowledge about the class https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Can-thief-apply-9-10-boons-at-once/first#post6459711 .

Crinn.7864:

Cynz.9437:

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Because that dps class is completely uncatchable by anything that isn’t itself.

The only way to handle a thief is to have your own thief. period. This violates the first rule of balance which is that the best counter to a class cannot be itself.

DH, engi, and war are not counters to thief because they cannot catch a thief. Only revs and chrono have a hope of touching a thief and but those classes are countered hard by thief.

Wrong. Druid can easily prevent thief from decaps or +1 someone due to short CD on RTL. Revs still have their mobility that allows them to follow thief. DHs have teleports.

Thief has counters, which is scrapper, DH, druid, war or just generally… you know, MAP AWARENESS.

Your statement would be true if we were talking about wvw but we are not. PvP is all about holding points and those classes don’t just counter thief, they are also amazing point holders. You don’t have to play for 3 points when you can bunker down 2 and those classes are really good at it.

Mes is not hardcountered by thief…… they have around 50% chance to kill each other. Same goes for rev. Hardcounter is when you have 0 chance to win vs other class (e.g. thief can’t touch scrapper or scrapper simply gets eaten alive by necros).

Lordrosicky.5813:

Come on dude. I know that you know thief is op and pi in particular is broken. Look what they did to dhuumfire. They nerfed it into oblivion. Your best bet would be to argue for how to nerf pi but not make it worthless. By saying its not op you lose credibility.

Maybe a 15% damage reduction? Maybe a ten second icd? The trait would still be good in both cases.

I would nerf the dps by 15% and make it not proc on auto attacks. This nerf might not be enough, but it would be a start towards fixing the game.

I wouldnt know about hot revs as i have only played gw2 hot for 5 weeks

Cmon on, dude. I know that you know thief is not OP and PI in particular is not broken given the current state of classes. By saying it is OP, you lose all credibility :P

Thing is, why should a dps class that can be easily ignored by half of the classes, and deals mainly single target damage (not even highest in game) at costs of survivability have it’s damage nerfed?

Well, i did play at HoT launch, i played rev actually because my team forced me to dump my thief for rev. Rev was stupidly broken, i could 1v3 for ages and actually down players. I also had best mobility in game (beside thieves, but even those couldn’t get away from rev at that time). Thief is a joke compared to monstrosity revs were at launch.

Annabel.5127:

Erzian.5218:

Annabel.5127:

Where was all this QQ months ago?

Thief hasn’t changed, and the only thing that has is players mentalities.

Every non-thief, non-warrior class has received massive nerfs which is an indirect buff to thief and warrior. One could argue that reaper hasn’t been nerfed for a while as well, but it has always been countered by daredevil, so it doesn’t matter.

Mesmer did not receive what anybody would call ’ a massive nerf ’ it switched to sages amulet from carrion to compensate for how healing power scales with it’s trait and a slightly longer shield cooldown. my point is this particular matchup of thief vs mesmer has not changed, which is why I said I consider the basis for the nerf ridiculous.

Is there some other matchup thief used to lose that it now wins?? not warrior, not engi, not druid, not dragonhunter.
The ‘massive nerfs’ you talk about have not given thief the capability to 1v1 any of its prior hard counters.

Like I said, only players like you who have had their mentality changed based on what they read or hear from other players suddenly think thief needs to be nerfed.

So I’ll ask again — if nothing has fundamentally changed, where was the QQ months ago?

exactly, it didn’t exist. why? because thief isn’t broken, Helseth just doesnt want to worry about good thieves, and bronze forum warrior kids need something new to cry about after losing their ranked q.

Pretty much this^^

Just like argument claiming that thieves prevent players from using certain builds or thief is mandatory, yada yada. Except in season 1, when nobody played thief, players still didn’t use those builds.

Evan Lesh.3295:

MOAR DATA: ~3% of matches have substitutes which could* cause the original problem in this thread. We are testing fixes now.

What is % of such matches in the ratings 1700+?

I have a feeling that due to nature of dodging, sniping, afking during the season etc. that is happening there, the % is way higher than 3%. I might be wrong though.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Irrelevant. besides. 2 thief comp is most likely really good in ranked.

The problem is there are many builds and classes which cannot exist because of A SINGLE TRAIT. Everytime I die…I would say like 50% of them are to thieves. And then I look at kill feed. Its 12k PI procs. 3 procs for 12k……Not to mention the easy 8k backstabs with no counter play.

You can’t do anything against it short of not casting spells. If you dont cast spells you die anyway. Mesmer and warrior might also be really strong but it isn’t even comparable.

Want to play damage ele? Nope, PI. Want to play damage mesmer? Nope, PI. Want to play condi necro? Nope, PI. Want to play power ranger? Nope, PI.

As for thieves moaning about killing too slow. Like really? You still kill an ele 1v1 easily. It takes like 30 seconds. Do you need to 1 shot everything or something?

The whole game is miserable because of passive 12k damage from instant cast ranged dazes. Headshot is amazing without PI. It can interrupt anything. Now with PI you add massive damage to this amazing skill.

This thief spec, I have heard, is also the easiest to play. Lastly, this isn’t some top tier thing. My rating is 1900 before decay and when levelling up there were 1500 rated thieves who caused me serious issues purely due to PI passive procs with zero counter play. You already have 9k backstabs and auto attacks that hit like a warrior….

This is the most OP build I have seen in my 2 years playing this game.

- 2 thieves is not a good comp given same skill level across 2 teams. It is guaranteed loss.
- Many builds that can’t exist because of a single trait? Like what. Give me some examples. Of course you would die a lot to thieves, you are a necro, a thief would be dumb not to focus you. You know what my death log looks like on scrapper? Poison, torment, burning, etc. By your logic necros need hefty nerfs because as a scrapper i might as well afk at spawn if enemy has a necro.

- 3 Pi for 12k ? It is 4k PI per proc, it usually hits for 3k on a good day, please post screenshot of that death log. Once again, i take more damage from necro weapon swap alone than PI will ever do. 8k backstab on necro? How? Did you afk or something? 8k backstab on a necro is not happening unless you have crapload of vulnerability on you and thief has might stacks. Given how necro applies weakness 24/7 i don’t see 8k backstabs happening. Also, backstab has plenty of counters…. (blocks, blinds, invuls, protection, etc.).

- FA ele doesn.t fail because of PI, FA ele dies to literary everything in this meta. Nobody played thieves in s1, where were all those FA eles? RRrrright, nobody played them despite thieves not existing in pvp.

- Actually people play dps mes, it is just not as good as condi build atm. Once again, when thieves didn’t exist in s1, nobody bothered playing shatter – your point is moot.

- people play dps ranger, what are you talking about?

- it doesn’t take 30 sec to kill good ele, it takes 1-2 min if ele doesn’t abuse JP. Nobody is moaning that it takes long for a thief to kill certain classes, point is when it takes for a glasses cannon considerable time to kill something then it is hardly broken. Given what you said it seems like you want tankier classes to be unkillable. Sry, but season 1 was bad and should never happen again.

- 1) for 12k you need 4 headshots, anyone would be stupid to spam so many headshots. I still fail to see how doing 12k over time is not ok for a dps build that has nothing else going for them. 2) it is not passive, thief actually needs to successfully interrupt the target for PI to trigger. Passive is defy pain.

- HS can’t interrupt everything due to reflects, stab, blocks, blinds etc. 3k is hardly a massive dmg…. especially on tanky builds like druid.

- then why don’t you play it when it is so easy? Go play that “easy” spec, post some videos of your epic plays, in plat please.

- once again, you play necro, there is a class that counters you, deal with it. Also, there are counters to PI, it is your choice not to use them.

- so which is it 8k backstabs or 9k lol? The number seems to increase with every line you type lol.

- yeaaaah, too bad thief doesn’t have sustain of a warrior and can stay in melee only for like 2 sec.

- pretty sure revs at HoT launch were more broken lol. Also, you clearly didn’t experience dhumfire necros xD

This was a good try though, Henry. I wouldn’t bite but certain people take it really serious.

@apharma.3741: assuming same skill level and everyone running meta, i am pretty sure double thief team is more at disadvantage than double mes or double necro comp. You may win some fights but thief is simply not capable of holding point and points win games.

This is just sad actually. Atm when you have 2 thieves on team people already throw tantrum and demand thieves to reroll. Gets even worse if we have 3 but hey thief is OP, yo.

Worst part, so here are all these necro/mes mains demanding thief nerfs but my experience from last seasons also showed that this very same people demand you to reroll to another class if you land on their team as a thief when the class is not doing so well (e.g. season 1).

Also,
1. " you need a thief to counter thief in Pro League tournaments": not true, depending on map you actually don’t (e.g. Forefire). Also, you need to have an ele and preferably a druid. So it is ok for those, but not ok for needing a thief to counter enemy thief? Double standards anyone? I mean by that logic ele, scrapper, druid needs to be nerfed.

2. In normal ranked thief heavily depends on his team doing well. If team is not doing well, you can’t “carry”. Definition of OP is when you actually 1v1 most classes, 1v2, 1v3 and hold point and preferably rotate fast. Thief can’t do any of that beside rotating. Thief damage is not even highest among current meta builds, they also have lowest sustain in game as well. “How dare glass cannon build deal damage!” – this is what all complains here boil down to. HS/IP also has a lot of counters, not just 1 or 2, multiple of them (blocks, blinds, stab, counter cc, LOS, dodge, reflects, stealth – every class has at least one of those; i am not even going to start on damage reduction traits). Skill is broken when there is little counter to it and it is too rewarding. 3k (on a good day) requiring to successfully interrupt something is hardly broken. A weapon swap from necro does more dmg to my thief than i do to necro with IP (and he has almost double of my thief’s HP).

But let’s keep it short: to all this necros/mes and co complainers, answer me this question. How do you explain, assuming thief is OP, that stacking necros is viable, stacking mes is viable, but having more than 1 thief on a team results in a loss in most cases? I am struggling with contradiction here.

I think what they should bring is rating gains/loss based on the match score. Atm there is no difference whether match was 499-500 or 100-500. I think players would try more to win if they knew they wouldn’t lose as many points if match was close one (450-500).

OP, current stats system heavily favors classes that can stay in team fights for long time. They usually get top damage because they have enough sustain to stay in fight for long fight -> more uptime on damage. They get defensives, rezzes, heals etc. once again due to their sustain. Roamers actually heavily punished as far as current stats system goes. Max you can get is maybe for assaulting nodes but that is.

I will show you thief perspective. 60-70% of the time i am actually running around the map for +1, decaps etc. During that time i am not dealing any dmg, however the damage i do deal usually downs someone. This is what called effective damage. Someone spamming AoE on necro minions will have top dmg stats but it is hardly effective damage.
Same goes for healing.

Then we have thing like defense. You come as roamer, you jump someone, down them, run off somewhere else. In many cases you don’t really get credit for it.

Then here is such thing that game can’t even record, e.g. my teammate is being chased by enemies and is dying, as a thief i can either peel for him or stealth him and save him – will it record in stats? No. But it is possibly game changing.

Does the game record me capping tranq, stillness etc.? NO.

Previous system was the opposite, it favors roamers more. I usually ended up being 100-200 points above my teammates because i was decapping so much and killing things. It is not that my teammates didn’t do their jobs, they did great at defending points but they wouldn’t get top stats for it.

Neither systems are really accurate, imo.

Bottom line, if rating depended on current top stats then we would see nothing but druids, eles, scrappers and necros on pvp.

I am in plat on alt account w/o HoT. AMA :P

On more serious note, i think anything works till like plat 3 where you start facing top 10 players that play to win and are actually good.

sophiewhite.3149:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

sophiewhite.3149:

bluri.2653:

kitten you make too long posts okay I’ll give you one last reply as well then.

2. You say thief can 1v1 mesmer and ele. Let me tell you this – do you think 1v1 an ele for 1-2 minutes before killing it is worth the time or optimal play? One the ele shouldn’t even be in a 1v1 EVER so this whole 1v1 is weird from the start. And you also feel that ele should be able to tank any dpser forever without dying? Fighting a mesmer as DP dash thief there is no way you hold the node against a mesmer, I bet you can hold the node much longer for the thief to not have this matchup being worth a single second and not even being able to kill you, as said feel free to prove me wrong on stream.

im sorry but a full bunker class shouldnt be instakilled by thief at all. taking 1 or 2 mins should be a minnimum. ele isnt going to be able to kill you. so you shouldnt be killing it easily 1v1 at all. you call instagibbing a class completely specced for tanking balanced? thats your end goal?

Point out where he said he wanted to instagib Ele, no where in his posts has he inferred to it or Stated as such.

hes talking like taking 1 or 2 mins to kill a ele as a thief is a problem. the alternative is instagibbing them.

You totally missed the point. Maybe read the thread before you post.

forum bug /15 charrs

BeepBoopBop.5403:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

BeepBoopBop.5403:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

Ha! At least we push a few buttons. Your passives play the game for you.

Idk why people say this. I -was- a thief main before HoT made it boring, but jeez the class elitism is old old old old old old old. Have you ever seen an acro build? Thief has a passive stunbreak + endurance refill and a passive distortion. Can I get a passive infuse light?

Yeah Thief totally has a passive distortion SMH…. this is why you can never take people seriously on the forums.

Distortion is Invulnerability, not Evade just saying.

Oh please cut the semantics. Oh no, the only difference is you can get hit with Pulm!

+ you can also proc the evasion traits in DD and Acro. Was that scientifically accurate enough for you?

No during Evade you can still be CC’d while Invuln you cannot, during Evade you can still take damage from certain traits, sigils and skill while Invuln you cannot. GG it’s not semantics they are two completely different skills. And let it be noted this topic is about Interrupting Distruption and Headshot which the last I checked the Staff Acro Build and the D/D Acro build do not use. Again can’t take you seriously when you say you mained Thief and then say Thief has Distortion.

No you cannot be CC’d lol. Unless you somehow proc mesmer’s CC mirror or another trait like that. You are literally being the biggest nitpicker to try to discredit me. I was a thief main for two years and still play it daily. D/D -> S/D -> D/P now so you’re barking up the wrong tree.

This topic is about ID and Headshot but this is all related. Because all you thief QQers will whine “waahhhhh we can’t 1v1!” so it doesn’t deserve a nerf when its YOUR FAULT you don’t take the builds that allow you to do that.

Oh really you can’t be CC’d? Let’s see try moving through any Line if Warding or DragonsMaw or the DH Spear of Justice Pull while the 2 second Evade is active oh that’s right you will be CC’d by knock down, pull etc while Invuln you wont be affected. I think you should do some research before stating things.

You are the only one discrediting yourself, I’m just providing the correct info.

nice ignoring the whole second paragraph because I’m right

No, I ignored it because it’s not relevant to the discussion, but I will humor you, all I see are people whining about ID and Headshot because they can’t Dodge, use Stab, Invuln, Reflect, Projectile Destroy, or Blocks to stop Headshot from Proccing ID, when they every class has access to at least two of those it’s not the Thieves fault they don’t run them at all.

in regards to the Blur comment you were still wrong and still need to research before stating false information. Blur is Mesmer specific, one skill provides it and that is Blurred Frenzy, I don’t know for certain why they just didn’t put Evade to match every other skill in game that provides a similar Evade effect, so no it shouldn’t be called Blur. Blur is just a relic from when Anet wanted classes to have “unique” effects and removed Distortion from Blurred Frenzy.

And to the Warding affects I used those ones as examples to what I am referring to, but let’s look at the Meta Build Medi Trapper uses Dragons Maw and Longbow which has Hunter’s Ward. Again here research would help a lot. And like you said if they aren’t it’s not the Thieves fault they don’t use what at their disposal and other classes have awards like Staff Ele.

1. Yeah how balanced to have to use longer 20 40 60 second cds to avoid a pulm from headshot, essentially a 4 second cd, which thieves 99% of the time spam randomly between autos very skillfull not passive at all.

2. IDGAF about your blur vs evade vs distortion discussion. It is still essentially a free to use skills invuln immune to -most- CCs making it better than passive endure pain in some ways.

3. It does not use Dragon’s Maw. Anyone using Maw is an easy target. Its like using Daggerstorm because there’s an LB druid lol, stupid and no one does it except bads. If you can’t dodge hunter’s ward with all the evades thief has that is L2P L2P L2P.

Thief mains these days are so irritating. Try playing another class once in a while.

Attaching my match history by class. This also leaves out a lot more games on my older alt account (which I EXCLUSIVELY played thief on), the screenshot attached is of my newer account that started I fresh with 2 years ago.

well i play scrapper and necro pretty frequently due to constantly getting double/tripple thieves or 3+ DHs on enemy team and i think PI is fine given current state of classes

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Menyus.4610:

Cynz.9437:

Menyus.4610:

Im a simple player, i play max 2 hours a day, i dont watch e-“sport” gw2, i dont care about top tier player problems, im atleast 35% of the player base of gw2, how about balancing the game to my skill level? And not to some special snowflake kids playing 28 hours a day…..

game is already balanced around you…. look at all passives from warrior, druid literary lets the game play for him

Hope this was some advanced sarcasm

Nope it is true, the amount of Passive Defenses and offenses in this game as well as all the kindly AoE Spam, and skills that are both Heavily offensive and Defensive at the same time are designed around Casual players otherwise they would have designed skills around PvP instead and have more active game play and not have skills so frontloaded with effects. There are classes that have severely low Skill floors and they essentially pilot themselves and get carried by passive defenses.

Then the reverse side of this look at all the competitive Game types they have no real rewards for performing well, the Rewards are designed to benefit Casual players more so than the competitive players, hell when a player feels like they can’t achieve something Anet instantly hops to and complies most recent example AP points for the Top 250 on Leader board, previous example Legendary Backpiece from PvP.

I agree

Thief
Has
No
Passives
At
All

Did I ever say Thief had no Passives? Let’s look at the post. Hmmm nope.

Nice try though, here is your Anet approved Participation Trophy.

Yeah true enough you didn’t say thief has no passives, however I have seen people who main thief talk about the same subject matter and how passives need to go without realising their own class has quite a few themselves.

The funny thing is the passive defences a thief has in acro are all much lower cool downs and better than the equivalent traits for other classes.

@Cynz, just because you don’t use it doesn’t mean thief is free of passives and I wasn’t aware attacking a target is such a highly skillful play, especially when it involves instant cast abilities and your auto applies poison by default.

You do realise instant reflexes is a cheaper version of endure pain with lower cool down but lower uptime?

When did i say thief has no passives? My original point was that game is plagued by passives because devs apparently wanted to make this game more accessible. It really puzzles me how it ended up me supposedly saying that thief has no passives….. assume much?

As far as landing attacks goes, it really depends on condition. E.g. immob proc is kind of useless vs classes with high uptime on resistance/condi cleanse. In many cases i can’t attack scrapper as thief because i will end up taking more dmg than i deal.

I am well aware how instant reflexes work, what is your point?

apharma.3741:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Menyus.4610:

Cynz.9437:

Menyus.4610:

Im a simple player, i play max 2 hours a day, i dont watch e-“sport” gw2, i dont care about top tier player problems, im atleast 35% of the player base of gw2, how about balancing the game to my skill level? And not to some special snowflake kids playing 28 hours a day…..

game is already balanced around you…. look at all passives from warrior, druid literary lets the game play for him

Hope this was some advanced sarcasm

Nope it is true, the amount of Passive Defenses and offenses in this game as well as all the kindly AoE Spam, and skills that are both Heavily offensive and Defensive at the same time are designed around Casual players otherwise they would have designed skills around PvP instead and have more active game play and not have skills so frontloaded with effects. There are classes that have severely low Skill floors and they essentially pilot themselves and get carried by passive defenses.

Then the reverse side of this look at all the competitive Game types they have no real rewards for performing well, the Rewards are designed to benefit Casual players more so than the competitive players, hell when a player feels like they can’t achieve something Anet instantly hops to and complies most recent example AP points for the Top 250 on Leader board, previous example Legendary Backpiece from PvP.

I agree

Thief
Has
No
Passives
At
All

Edit: Before someone points out only a few at best are used in the current meta build, I am fully aware of this, it doesn’t change that thief has passives that are applied with very little user interaction which is what is being complained about.

Half of those require thief to actively attack the target and actually land an attack, those are enhancements, not passives; other half is….well you said it yourself, nobody uses them (because they are bad duhh). I don’t think you understand the definition of passive. In case of passives there is no real involvement of the player required to make those work. Here is example of real passive.

Menyus.4610:

Im a simple player, i play max 2 hours a day, i dont watch e-“sport” gw2, i dont care about top tier player problems, im atleast 35% of the player base of gw2, how about balancing the game to my skill level? And not to some special snowflake kids playing 28 hours a day…..

game is already balanced around you…. look at all passives from warrior, druid literary lets the game play for him

nothelseth.4621:

Azukas.1426:

Ok so here’s the part that has yet to be defined by Helseth.

“Optimized thief”

Define optimized before I weigh in please b/c if it’s what I think you mean than this will be easy.

Right now we have 1/2 of the pro thief players weighing in vs a pro mesmer. Sind is biased towards thief b/c he plays thief and helseth is biased against thief b/c he’s always hated them since like 2013.

Please define “optimized thief”

Good question,!

The image I had in my mind when writing optimized thief is basically the highest level of gameplay I know of for the class. There is a huge difference between someone being ’’ok’’ at something and someone being ’’opimized’’

For intance, people use me as a benchmark for how mesmer does in duels. Most mesmers playing vs most DHs have no chance right? However, when I play it, the ’’optimized’’, I beat 99% of the DHS out there.

Does this mean that mesmer beats DH? No, because once I face an optimized DH (drazeh) I get completelly destroyed. Like the matchup is impossible.

So I guess my definition is ‘’the best player in this matchup vs the best player in this matchup’‘. This opinion is still subject to change since new craft is found all the time, but it’s the best we got when crafting.

Drazeh (most definitely the best dueling thief in the game) melts any ele 1v1. We can use this to say that an ’’optimized’’ thief beats ele.

So you need to be top player and main the class to make it work as you describe. The moment “optimized” thief faces “optimized” class XY, it is not as “insane” as you describe anymore. OK, tnks for proving our point.

nothelseth.4621:

‘thief cant 1v1’’

optimized thief 1v1 beats:

mesmer(mesmer wins locations where thief cant steal but thats quarry and mine out of every single node in the game) , rev, necro, ele

while also beating all of these classes in mobility

thief used to have bad 2v2 but it’s really something you can debate right now since you’ll always get a 2v1 opening and nobody other than scrapper and warrior can properly sustain a thief 2v1.

tldr every single top player agrees that thief is insane right now except for sind whos clearly unbiased.

Source of such claims?

Biased?…. oh the irony in this one.

On that note, yes, thief can 1v1 some classes but it takes time, a lot of time and in most cases simply not worth it, in fact it leads to match loss. Not to mention, that even if thief does manage to kill his opponent he probably lost the point in meanwhile and lot of match points at that. It is a loss/loss situation. The only time i ever 1v1 someone is when 1. it is our point 2. i know i can kill them really quickly because they are bad or/and run bad build OR i know help will arrive soon.

As far as tourneys go (since we are bringing those in), last time i checked Sind played thief because he didn’t care anymore. Other thief in tourneys simply got ignored by the enemy team since his impact wasn’t really that meaningful. Yeah, thief is so insane yo that it is valid strategy just to ignore him.

You are talking to a wall, give them chance and they would delete thief from pvp all together. People just want bunkerfest from s1 all over again.

Daishi.6027:

But as long as they are evading there is little way to pressure them, and it’s to easy for them to escape to regain ini, unlike everything else that realistically runs out of resources and gets screwed, any thief who knows how to manage ini will never truely run out in a bad position, and can always keep pressure with no risk.

It’s fine that they can evade a ton, but there has to be some risk that isn’t negated by “my ini getting low? K bai!… K I’m back, and can keep going!” within a few moments. At the very least, this gives an objective advantage against anything with limited or restrictive cooldowns, and anything that needs to setup burst.

1. you obviously don’t play a thief otherwise you wouldn’t post this nonsense
2. so to make thief work player needs to be good, but it is ok that to make other classes work player doesn’t even need to be good…. so the thief should be nerfed? That logic.

Supreme.3164:

HeadCrowned.6834:

Definately applicable to the hideous condi thieves. Although they aren’t played often, they are just broken.

Not played often? O_O….there is a condi thief 3 matches out of 5, they all play the same..rush far/spam dodge/bleeding=profit

lol i have seen only 1 condi thief in plat and it is always same player

Chapell.1346:

Idk what are you people trying to prove since there was already a proper discussion given and all i read was defensive formation who mainly Thief players that benefited the most with this thread trying to solve, however, while Thief was the most embarrassing class to play why not give us Cooldown when successfully interrupted someone skill animation, better if it’s on Global for innovative purpose.

english please?

i think all the posters here that demand IP/headshot nerf should go make a thief w/o IP trait, play in plat games, record them and show us how “fine” thief is w/o IP

Not so helseth, i am being serious: how do you deal with Sind/Misha combo camping your home/mid 24/7?

jonemirant.1653:

Cynz.9437:

ranked and unranked have MMR, so in a sense it is rated
where HJ doesn’t

wait a minute!!!! does that mean i can lose a bunch of match in unrank and that will lower my MMR?

ranked and unranked have separate MMR

Yannir.4132:

Warcry.1596:

l love facing Thieves on my necro. I’ve lost to only one or two this season 1v1. But in middle of gold not many people can interrupt well it seems.

Yeah because the ones that would win don’t engage you 1v1. Only bad thieves really do that, since 1v1 is the last place you want to be as a thief. Aside from a teamfight.

I engage 1v1 but only if necro attempts to decap our point and i know help will come eventually.

foste.3098:

@cynz if the entire class is dependent on a single trait to function then the class itself is the issue,i realize allot of classes have a trait they more or less need depending on the meta but thief is also tied to a weapon set which makes it double bad. I don’t want to nerf pi or whatnot just because lul nerf teef i genuinely think the trait design as is now is not fun to play against.
Also i used to main a thief so i know all the ins and outs of the class but gave it up since it became boring and stagnate.

This is off topic but what will happen when we get another elite spec next expansion? Core thief still has strong mobility so if the new elite line ends up as a support line that will pose an issue, same if it ends up as a bunker line of some sort. I bring this up because anet might nerf core thief again (like they did to acro) in order to justify the next elite spec.

well they nerfed all stealth spells, bp, heartseeker, headshot, mug over the years and buffed other classes survivability to absurd levels (hello warriors)… ofc only thing that is left is PI and AA (for dp that is, staff is different story)

i am not fan of PI either but i wasn’t the one begging for backstab nerfs…. posters like OP did, which led to thieves relying so heavily on PI on first place…

Lexander.4579:

love people talking improvisation as if its an actual trait and not just a part of kittenty meme builds that run 6-0 skills from the same category

improv is great vs mesmers actually, i love it

foste.3098:

The issue is not impact damage in a vacuum, the problem is when you slap the 3k impact on top of all the other damage sources thief has. After a thief opens on someone and drops them below 50% he can keep his distance and kill with timing headshots. The design is not fun to play against especially if you are on a class with poor stability access.
The most elegant solution would be to add a ~5 sec cd to the trait and go from there, also make it unable to proc on auto attacks.

@cynz: why are you adamant about defending this one trait? thief will do fine if it gets nerfed, the class role will stay the same it will simply mean you actually have to be more involved in a fight to win it rather than haphazardly using headshot.

because thief doesn’t have luxury to stay in fights for long due to absurd amount of AoE…. as any other classes (even as necro) you can take take some beating, thief can’t, 1-2 hits -> he is dead

headshot with IP is at least second source of damage beside AA and it allows thief not exactly eat every single aoe on point

look at video that Sind posted, look, how despite all that “legendary” burst even best thief on EU can’t really drop enemy (no offense at Sind, tnks for posting btw)

game should not be based around bronze players that don’t even have stow weapon keybinded but this is what you are asking for

do me a favor, go make a thief w/o IP, play it vs plat/legend team, record your games so we can all see how thief is “fine”

Bio Flame.4276:

1. Thief: daze spam, backstab spam, interrupt spam; Automatic/insta-stomps (who was the idiot that thought this would be a good idea?); generally a trollish and unfun build to play against due to the huge burst, excellent mobility and general running around the map. It might be fun playing with one, but it’s very unfun playing against one (which should absolutely be considered and avoided when designing a class for PvP).

when the person has no clue about the class…..

- backstab can’t be spammed due to CD and stealth requirement which is gated behind other CDs
- that stomp is not automatic, it is an elite that needs to be activated. It is also not instant, it is combination of 3 attacks, each has a cast time (so easily interruptable), the finishing blow has 1.5 sec animation.
- other classes have more burst
- newsflash thieves were always about running around the map. Anet stripped them off everything (because of posters like you) and gave them only ability to “run around the map”. Players like you asked for it, now enjoy the results.

what is “fun” is very subjective….

Chapell.1346:

So,which one is the problem? Impact Disruption or Pulmonary Impact? I’m confused thought was Headshot.

everything that does damage

they just want thief not to do any damage at all, just look at this vv

Lordrosicky.5813:

Cynz.9437:

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free

Then you die to 1 spam.

@Henry: shall we talk about necro’s undodgable procs, weapon swap, passives etc.? Or how i get hit by mark w/o being on the mark but if someone else triggers it i still eat full stack of condi and dmg? Should we talk about how i get near full bar of condis by simply landing few attacks on necro? Should we talk about necro AA that corrupts boons for free? Should we talk about all the AoE necro throws around and that hits you through walls and requires 0 targeting? I have to dodge necros AA otherwise i would get instagibbed pretty quickly.

Stand The Wall.6987:

reduce the damage. its the only way that makes sense. also don’t spam your skills and die to pi, but pi is still ridiculous.
forcing a player to dodge it or eat it is ludicrous lol. no one in their right mind is going to waste a dodge on pi unless theyre on their last leg.

OR you could just stow weapons… which is free. Thief is not the highest damage dealer in game, they are also squishiest class and yet you demand nerfs. What a joke.

All classes have tools to deal with thief damage (i can pretty much facetank everything thief throws at me as scrapper), the only class that somehow anywhere could complain about PI is necro. However necros hardcounter scrappers so hard, i don’t think they have any right to complain about any counters.