Guild Wars 2

Ruprect.7260:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

Rarely does this make much of a difference. A bad group is a bad group reguardless of level.

No one is comparing a good group of low lvls against a bad group of high lvls.

The same player with the same skills will do worse when he is low lvl than high lvl. That’s just a fact.

Gargant.6457:

I recently got my first character to 80, a Charr warrior. I didn’t do any dungeons while lvling and I’m now interested to start doing them but they seem very different from what I’ve done before.

When I played WoW (2005-2007) I didn’t raid in vanilla but in Burning Crusade I cleared everything except Black Temple,Archimonde in CoT and Sunwell Plateu. I did do the first boss in Black Temple but nothing else in there.
I also did some instances in SWTOR but nothing worth mentioning

As far as I understand, Dungeons in GW2 is very different from what WoW was and you don’t really use Off-Tanks,CC/Support etc.
So are Dungeons mainly just a DPS race/Tank and Spank? Are they heavy on tactics?
I Played a Warrior in WoW and did mostly off-tanking but some main tanking aswell but warrior don’t do that in this game correct?

So what are some general tips for a warrior and what are usual signets/banners people favor? And what traits do people like to use aswell for dungeons.

Note: I use Dual Axes and atm as secondary a bow/gun. I used a Greatsword and sometimes a Hammer while lvling but got very bored of them and I like having a ranged as a second. Dual axes are way more fun for me. Also atm I use a set of Draconic armor and dual krait axes.

Dungeons are mostly based on tactics. It’s just most tactics revolve around dps.

As a warrior I’d probably recommend you get full berserker’s gear.

If you want to run banners any of them are decent and you can switch off depending on situation (Banner of discipline is not bad) but you’ll need the traits:

Regen banner and Inspiring battle standard. (Get either shrug it off or lung capacity in same line for condition removal.)

Dolyak signet is pretty good for passive dmg reduction and the active stability.
Signet of rage is good elite for fury gain and active fury, might and swiftness.

Aside from the actual banner skill you’ll have 1 skill left to choose from and I’d choose shake it off for condition removal/stun break.

For heal in dungeons I usually take healing surge since it heals the most and you’ll have full fury at all times with that build.

For wvw probably mending.

For access to berserker gear go to COF runs or just craft yourself a fullset if you have the crafting level. (gw2lfg.com is a good site for teams)

With that setup you shouldn’t have any trouble in most instances.

Wobels.1679:

Lol if fast runners are bugging you, I just dont know what to say you must have more than a couple hours a night to run 6 dungeons"on weekdays"? Well i dont and i need it done quick so i can make the most of reset. Sorry my play style dosnt fit yours. I just dont see the point in wasteing time on something that can be done in 15-20mins. Quit stareing at the scenery move your butt and kill some stuff its that easy. Anyways post it “hey I will be exploring every crack and under every rock in this dungeon” on gw2lfg I wish you luck with that. Let us fast runners know thats your plan so we wont join your run.

Also changing the kick option is stupid its perfect how it is. If we get a oh you cant kick for 15min thing. I will drop the group and reform without you and finish the dungeon in the 15mins it took waiting for you.

Nicely said.

Wukunlin.8461:

I have experienced the same thing but I’m not sure if there is a simple solution to this… (other than an in-game team forming interface, which I don’t see in the near future)

Or they could just simply implement a clone of gw2lfg.com in the gw2 forums itself and make it it’s own sub forum.

Simplist way to make sub 80s more welcome in a team is to either penalize stats more for scale down from higher lvl or tone down the dungeons themselves.

Not really a widespread problem. I’ve never seen this happen.

Maylojager.1307:

Uniqueness for the sake of it – is quite a sad sight indeed. There is a reason why “everyone” is running gs zerk build. Just a food for your thoughts, think about it.

I think the main problem is most people don’t.

Sorry but bottom line is complaining here is not going to get you people groups. You can give any excuse or rationalization you want. Reality is reality. Get yourself a 80 to run the dungeons so you don’t have the problem, or continue to complain and gain nothing.

SynfulChaot.3169:

There is nothing they can realistically add that would make you and many others want to party with sub-80s. That is fine. Just let people know ahead of time in the LFG post instead of just kicking those that try to join that are not 80.

I cannot change what people do or think. I can, however, voice my views on what I think would benefit the community.

There are plenty of things they can change to incentivize people to team with lower lvls. You just simply lack the imagination or never bothered to think up of some.

They can make downscaling penalize higher lvls more to bring their stats more in line with a lower lvl.

They can also tone down the difficulty on some of the lower scale dungeons to make them easier for lower lvls to run them, so they are less of a liability on teams.

Those are just the things that came to mind in 10 seconds of actually thinking about it.

Having said that, imo low levels shouldn’t even be in dungeons anyway.(That’s my “should” statement since it’s not what IS) It takes like less than 1 week to lvl to 80 maybe 3 weeks if you are casual.

You can also just switch to your low lvl before boss to get full reward and exp if you must bring a low lvl.

All these concepts have been covered to death in this thread and threads like this but you and people like you just block out any reasonable workaround and rehash your slogans in the face of all logic and common sense.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

It is true that there are no game penalties for acting exclusionary. And it is true that there are not extra incentives.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

The norm is whatever the majority of the community decides it is. That is directly influenced by the rules and restrictions in the game.

You don’t get to decide what the norm is unilaterally.

You are not the majority, nor am I. I am simply stating what it should be to make for a good and friendly community.

I never pretended to be the majority.

I’m just pointing out that only stating what things “should be” is the most useless thing anyone can say because it provides no way to get to that state.

You simply can’t get it through your head that you need to actually petition the devs to change the game rules in such a way to incentivize people to behave in that way or THEY WILL NEVER BEHAVE THE WAY YOU WANT THEM TO.

Just rehashing your same tired “should be” talking points here doesn’t do anything towards fixing the problem because unless you have magical mental powers to control peoples’ minds they WILL NOT do what you think they “should” do.

SynfulChaot.3169:

It is true that there are no game penalties for acting exclusionary. And it is true that there are not extra incentives.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

The norm is whatever the majority of the community decides it is. That is directly influenced by the rules and restrictions in the game.

You don’t get to decide what the norm is unilaterally.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

When leveling, I always save up to get the elites as they become available. And while I may not have picked up every skill, I do have access to all skills that are actually used.

I don’t believe you. In order to have enough points left for an elite skill you’d have to completely nerf your build and/or run around all low lvl zones collecting every skill point you can find.

Not to mention most of the best elite skills key to any build takes 30 points by themselves.

It just takes smart use of where to spend your skill points. You may not have the 30 point one yet, but there is not reason you should not have access to at least one elite (which are honestly rarely used) and several tier 3 skills.

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I run with sub-80s frequently and the groups wipe no more than full 80 groups.

I don’t believe that. I don’t think you even believe that.

Actually, I do believe that. The only thing I see die reliably in dungeons are thieves, but I still do not exclude them. And, despite running with groups of any level, I rarely see wipes and I see them happen as often with full 80 groups than with groups of mixed level.

Your personal beliefs are irrelevant. What’s truly relevant is how things are and the incentives and the penalities the game inflicts for certain things. I already pointed out why in another post of mine in response to you.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Once again, sub-80 charas do not need to be carried. If you truly believe that, then yes, you are an elitist.

That being said if you wish to run 80-only runs, specify that in your LFG. Everyone else should not need to post ‘sub-80 ok’ to get a group. The norm should be acceptance, not exclusion.

Wrong. It’s called being a realist.

And can you please explain if lvl 80s didn’t need to be carried WHY there aren’t any teams labeled, “sub lvl 80s!”

IndigoSundown.5419:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

Do you think I do? The difference here is that I am ACTUALLY working within the system while you are the one trying to blame the symptoms of the system on players rather than the faults of the system itself.

The fact is even with down scaling a lvl 80 with exotics still far outclasses any low lvl and I’ve explained that many times already in this thread.

And because of that no pug team that cares about finishing dungeons quickly is going to accept a sub lvl 80.

I wish that wasn’t the case but it is. So your focus of ire on so called “elitists” is misplaced since the game is itself setup to promote behavior like that due to rational self interest and the fact that in a pug it’s all strangers.

It’s more than just this game, it’s pretty much all MMO’s. Harder content is all team content, and players are going to repeat at least some of it ad nauseam. Players play the content long past the time when that content is new and exciting, and it’s all because of the rewards. Is it any wonder, then, that they want speed?

This is going to continue until programmers can keep up with users, which would require innovations in programming, or until programmers make dungeons that change randomly each time they’re run. That, by the way, is what I envisioned when the devs talked about GW2 dungeons. It’s not, needless to say, what we got.

That’s exactly true, that’s why the whole mentality of us vs “elitists” is ill formed and totally unconstructive.

What these people need to be complaining about is the fact that explorable dungeons are harder for teams with sub lvl 80s or the level scaling system itself.

Complaining about so-called Elitists who won’t accept them into their parties is pointless and at the end of the day they still won’t be accepted into parties based on their lvl.

SynfulChaot.3169:

When leveling, I always save up to get the elites as they become available. And while I may not have picked up every skill, I do have access to all skills that are actually used.

I don’t believe you. In order to have enough points left for an elite skill you’d have to completely nerf your build and/or run around all low lvl zones collecting every skill point you can find.

Not to mention most of the best elite skills key to any build takes 30 points by themselves.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I run with sub-80s frequently and the groups wipe no more than full 80 groups.

I don’t believe that. I don’t think you even believe that.

Vees.7816:

I don’t have much MMO experience. I have never done raids before. They seem to be quite fun.

They aren’t. /Thread

swiftpaw.6397:

There are so many people wanting their lowbies to be taken in the lvl 80 groups, why not just form your own lowbie groups? I see them on the lfg a fair bit, people running their lowbie alts through, looking for more like-minded and like-leveled players.

Because the truth is they want to be carried.

There’s nothing preventing them from creating line in GW2LFG saying “AC exp all below 80 no speed run” for example. (Yet surprise surprise I’ve never seen such posts ever.)

If in fact sub lvl 80s have no trouble finishing explorables then they should have no problems forming teams with all sub 80s.

The FACT is they want to leech off the work of others and when called on it they fall back on their talking point about “elitists”.

They themselves know the truth and they are just shameless trying to use any kind of distortion or strawman arguments in order to avoid admitting that truth.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

I am not disgruntled and I do work within the system. That does not mean I need to like the elitist elements in it.

Do you think I do? The difference here is that I am ACTUALLY working within the system while you are the one trying to blame the symptoms of the system on players rather than the faults of the system itself.

The fact is even with down scaling a lvl 80 with exotics still far outclasses any low lvl and I’ve explained that many times already in this thread.

And because of that no pug team that cares about finishing dungeons quickly is going to accept a sub lvl 80.

I wish that wasn’t the case but it is. So your focus of ire on so called “elitists” is misplaced since the game is itself setup to promote behavior like that due to rational self interest and the fact that in a pug it’s all strangers.

Wobels.1679:

So I dont know all thats been said cause there is 8 pages but heres my 2cents. I dont take lower lvls than 80s because.
1. You cant rez run anymore so if your low lvl person dies while skipping mobs they cant rez and come later you have to wait.
2. Yes your stats change but obviously a exotic 80 has way more stats and has access to all the food/stone/oil/potion buffs.
Thats it as far as low lvls. I also dont take theifs or rangers.
1. They die too fast.
2. They dont spec to support the group just them selfs.
3. Rangers dps just is kittens right now.
Disclaimer I know not all low lvls and all rangers and all thiefs are bad. When it comes to these I will only run with guildies that I know support and can pull their weight. Anyways when i form a group thats why i form it how I want it.
What i suggest is if you want to run the dungeon on a lower lvl toon create the group. Let everyone know its a come all group on gw2lfg.com
Call me elitist or what ever, but I took the time to run the story mode, and took the time to form the group. I got every right to take the time to form it how I want.

100% Agree.

noobftw.9654:

Was doing a cof p1 run today. The topic in GW2LFG was nothing remotely close to speed run or farming run. The makeup of the group was 1 elem 1 necro and 2 mesmer, nothing remotely resembles a speed run. At the beginning of the run I said I will be switching to my alt when boss was low hp. Was doing most of the dps and tanking on my elem while the other elem, the necro and 1 of the mesmers kept dying. Anyways, it was pretty fast took us 5-10 mins getting to the boss. So I switched to my low level alt when the final boss at 40% hp and only to found I got kicked before the experience and chest. One of the mesmer told me the group leader initiated the kick.
What the kitten is wrong with COF p1 run nowadays? And more importantly what’s wrong with the people running it? Is there anyway Anet can do to prevent this bs happening? Maybe charging people 1g when initiating a kick? And most importantly shield player who is (1. online 2. solid presence in the aggro table, 3. did top damage in the party) from being kicked. not hard but pretty effective isn’t it?
comments as you think fit.

Well it sounds like no one agreed to that. You can’t just switch characters in without consent from the team.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Checked back in after two more pages. Still no one answering the question…

If you don’t know the players, don’t know their gear, don’t know their build or skills, what is the potential upside for a max level group of taking a lower level?

I’ll put it another way. If the 80 you’re requesting or the lower-level you could have had are both ciphers to you, what’s the advantage of taking the lower level?

They don’t answer this question because they can’t. Since it destroys their argument completely.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.

I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.

In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.

No. Dislike the player, not the game. The game does not say you should act that way. Your actions you cannot blame on the game. Sorry. It’s not the game. It is you.

Wrong. The framework of the game is setup to encourage players to behave in a certain manner to achieve success or efficiency just like any other MMO.

You just happen to be one of the disgruntled players that can’t work within the system and instead of asking for systemic change in the game you are blaming people for finding ways to work within the system and not acting in the manner you wish.

That doesn’t work, has not worked, and never will work.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

The same tired arguments. The difference is not that great, people. Unless you are explicitly looking for a speedrun, there is no reason to exclude based on level or class.

Wrong, there’s a huge difference in traits not to mention skill points.(lvl 30ish has no access to tier 2 or 3 traits)

Everyone is looking for a speed run since dungeons are a token treadmill.

Who in their right mind would want to take longer than it’s neccessary to beat an instance when they’ve already beaten the same instance 100 times already?

You yourself admit that you need lvl 80s in a speed run, which is an indirect admission that there is a significant difference between lvl 80s and those that are lower.

A level 30 has access to all skills. They may not have access to all traits, but you can be effective enough to not hold your party back. And not everyone is looking for a speed run. Many are just looking to complete it and don’t mind full clears. I, personally, prefer full clears as you can get some good loot in many dungeons.

I have completed most dungeons too many times to count. I still prefer playing with players who will talk and be nice over people who think they are better than a majority of the game population.

Try to distort as much as you want but it won’t change the facts.

I see you chose to not to mention that elite skills by themselves cost 10-30 skill points and you need to invest a set amount of points per tier to even gain access to the next tier, so you actually don’t “have access to all skills” by 30. If we assume you actually know what you are talking about then what you said was just blatantly dishonest.

There’s nothing wrong with teaming with lower lvls if you don’t mind spending extra time per run or wiping but don’t try to distort the facts.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yelabela.2718:

… All-in-all, who says that my playstyle should dictate what others do? I can’t tell people not to speed-run, that’s not my place. I’m just pointing out that what dungeons have become is way off-target from your intentions, Anet. It’s resulting in this phenomenon: new players " can’t " do dungeons until they’re lv 80, which doesn’t necessarily mean that they properly learned their kitten about how to play their class. I learned a lot about how to really play from the challenges presented in the dungeons when I was near the recommended level. Players are missing out on the opportunity of doing dungeons when technically they’re “supposed to be able to.”

Players should not be feeling this pressure from the vocal elitist minority. All players should feel welcome to play the content as they reach the suggested level for the dungeon. Players should not feel obligated to be level 80 before doing content designed for lower levels.

It’s more like the vocal complainer minority.

I’d love it if everyone can team up together too but the fact is dungeons are just not setup that way.

In other words, don’t hate the player, hate the game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

The same tired arguments. The difference is not that great, people. Unless you are explicitly looking for a speedrun, there is no reason to exclude based on level or class.

Wrong, there’s a huge difference in traits not to mention skill points.(lvl 30ish has no access to tier 2 or 3 traits)

Everyone is looking for a speed run since dungeons are a token treadmill.

Who in their right mind would want to take longer than it’s neccessary to beat an instance when they’ve already beaten the same instance 100 times already?

You yourself admit that you need lvl 80s in a speed run, which is an indirect admission that there is a significant difference between lvl 80s and those that are lower.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?

Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.

Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.

It’s only an unofficial look by a few people but let’s say it’s true:

According to that post there’s still an advantage, and there’s no mention of sigils or runes in the comparison, which makes a huge difference.

Also, the biggest part left out in the comparison is the TRAITS themselves. (Not the stat benefit but the trait abilities)

If you are below 60 for example you won’t have any of the grandmaster traits, which makes or breaks alot of builds.

Then there’s the access to foods, which is not mentioned in the comparison.

There’s a reason why most people don’t like to take sub 80s, it’s not because of so called elitism but rather practicality.

I’ve ran hundreds of dungeon runs in my time and from my experience about 90% of the times where a sub lvl 80 is in the team it either take longer or in some instances wipes while that number is lower with all 80s.

In fact I just ran COF 1 earlier tonight with a sub 80, the guy couldn’t even survive in the brazier area and ran around the brazier area forcing us to reset the encounter twice.

Drew.1865:

DeathPanel.8362:

Clairette.5396:

I have seen players level 40 ish not dying or getting downed in AC and level 80’s just gettting downed all the time. In my opinion if they want level 80’s just post it and be done with it otherwise kicking people without telling anything its very rude (not the best example but its like feeling you work without getting paid). I think that with more people asking level 80’s maybe its better to make all dungeon level requirement lvl 80 because a low level will never get into a group…

Sorry but lvl 38 is too much. I’d kick you too if I were still running that. I don’t care what you claim you’ve seen but a lvl 38 thief is not going to have the survivability, ability set, traits or even the dmg to contribute in any meaningful way to a team.

If level up is what you are after it’s far faster simply just to solo explore the world map doing heart and events.

If tokens are what you are after and you still want that exp boost then just use your lvl 80 and ask for permission to switch to your lvl 38 before boss.

The one thing that’s truly rude and frankly simply not efficient is to show up with a lvl 38 in a team of all 80s and expect them to carry you through the whole dungeon, which let’s not kid ourselves is the only way you’d be able to go through that dungeon with that setup not to mention it would take longer than if you just simply used the 80 and switched to your other char before boss.

Actually you are also lowered to level 35 when you run AC ex and I’d rather run it with a level 38 thief than with a player with the attitude you have.

This might be a surprise to you but some people run level 35 dungeons at level 38 for fun :-)

The scale down doesn’t actually mean you are comparable to a lvl 35. A lvl 80 in all exotics with all their runes/sigils, traits and skillpoints is leagues ahead of an actual 35.

I’ve also already pointed out the OBVIOUS fact that since the OP said he had a lvl 80 he could’ve easily just used his 80 and switched to his lvl 38 prior to the boss if tokens/exp was what he was after.

There’s a good reason the op was being kicked by almost every single team because anyone with any decent experience with exp dungeons in this game knows a lvl 38 thief just can’t cut it.

Maybe if it was a guild team or team with friends, but if he was in a pug team then that’s pushing it.

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

Clairette.5396:

I have seen players level 40 ish not dying or getting downed in AC and level 80’s just gettting downed all the time. In my opinion if they want level 80’s just post it and be done with it otherwise kicking people without telling anything its very rude (not the best example but its like feeling you work without getting paid). I think that with more people asking level 80’s maybe its better to make all dungeon level requirement lvl 80 because a low level will never get into a group…

Sorry but lvl 38 is too much. I’d kick you too if I were still running that. I don’t care what you claim you’ve seen but a lvl 38 thief is not going to have the survivability, ability set, traits or even the dmg to contribute in any meaningful way to a team.

If level up is what you are after it’s far faster simply just to solo explore the world map doing heart and events.

If tokens are what you are after and you still want that exp boost then just use your lvl 80 and ask for permission to switch to your lvl 38 before boss.

The one thing that’s truly rude and frankly simply not efficient is to show up with a lvl 38 in a team of all 80s and expect them to carry you through the whole dungeon, which let’s not kid ourselves is the only way you’d be able to go through that dungeon with that setup not to mention it would take longer than if you just simply used the 80 and switched to your other char before boss.

For AC? Such an easy dungeon, and you are kicking people trying to do it in level?

Wow, how bad you should be playing and bad teaming that you need a carry by others 80s.

He’s lvl 38. Of course I’d kick him and so would most people and that is exactly what happened and the point of his complaint.

It seems that many people including myself have gone through this simple concept with you many times now throughout different threads but you either fail to understand or simply refuse to.

People want higher lvls to run their dungeons because they want it to end QUICKLY.

Running dungeons is NOT a show of skill genius, it’s just all route memorization and gear/level based.

This is NOT a twitch online game where reflexes matter. Anyone with half a synapse can time a dodge if they know when to do it.

Dungeons are a tedious, repetitive token mill, and anyone with any sense would try to get through it QUICKLY.

You can repeat your meaningless talking point as many times as you want, it will not change reality and it will not change the fact that low lvls will get kicked from most parties.

Mesmer, Guardian, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior.

Clairette.5396:

I have seen players level 40 ish not dying or getting downed in AC and level 80’s just gettting downed all the time. In my opinion if they want level 80’s just post it and be done with it otherwise kicking people without telling anything its very rude (not the best example but its like feeling you work without getting paid). I think that with more people asking level 80’s maybe its better to make all dungeon level requirement lvl 80 because a low level will never get into a group…

Sorry but lvl 38 is too much. I’d kick you too if I were still running that. I don’t care what you claim you’ve seen but a lvl 38 thief is not going to have the survivability, ability set, traits or even the dmg to contribute in any meaningful way to a team.

If level up is what you are after it’s far faster simply just to solo explore the world map doing heart and events.

If tokens are what you are after and you still want that exp boost then just use your lvl 80 and ask for permission to switch to your lvl 38 before boss.

The one thing that’s truly rude and frankly simply not efficient is to show up with a lvl 38 in a team of all 80s and expect them to carry you through the whole dungeon, which let’s not kid ourselves is the only way you’d be able to go through that dungeon with that setup not to mention it would take longer than if you just simply used the 80 and switched to your other char before boss.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence and actual experience to the contrary?

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Downleveling takes into account that lower levels do not have exotics. It does balance out stats taking into account best-in-slot at that level.

How about you actually provide some evidence of this rather than spewing it like it’s the truth despite all observable evidence of actual experience to the contrary?

Zenith.7301:

You do realize it doesn’t matter? A 21 alt reward is nothing I want, the same as not getting it. Not sure about what inane point you were trying to make with that since I was screwed the moment they announced the build, which they have no warning about.

His point was in fact there were warnings.

In fact maintenance windows are posted in the front page of this website in a huge red banner.

Seeing as how you have the time to come to the forums to bloviate about your first world gamer problems you should’ve had the time and attention span to see when they were scheduled and adjusted accordingly.

If your only complaint was that the fractals level should be account wide I would agree with you.

But your main complaint was essentially that they didn’t schedule their maintenance window around your whims, which is entirely without merit.

Zenith.7301:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zenith.7301:

You can also make the argument that they don’t owe you anything — no finished personal story, no character customization, no levels beyond 20. It would all be true — they don’t owe you anything. Doesn’t mean it’s good policy, just like restricting fractal progress to characters or not letting you join fractals after a new build is bad policy in my opinion, and last I checked I have the freedom to discuss bad policy that lessens my enjoyment of dungeons.

God forbid people submit feedback on features they don’t like.

I made no such argument. That’s a ridiculous strawman.

All I said was they aren’t going to schedule their maintenance around your preferences. The world doesn’t revolve around you.

Don’t be coy. Your suggestion with the “they aren’t going to schedule their maintainance around you” is that accommodating me as a player with features that make builds not screw me over is silly is as good retort.

Pointing out your ridiculous strawman argument is not being “coy”.

Pointing out that a mmo company not scheduling their maintenance window around the whims of a disgruntled player like you is NOT the same as saying you aren’t entitled to them providing any content or customization.

GabGar.4962:

DeathPanel.8362:

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

If somebody thinks the low level dungeons are too much trouble to get them done, well, then they need to be carry, again my stament is true: “only 80s groups” are made by those who think make things on level is too hard.

You obviously either didn’t bother to read what I said or don’t have reading comprehension.

People create 80 only teams or have gear check because they want to get through the dungeon QUICKLY and with the least amount of trouble.

GabGar.4962:

And no, nobody is saying a lvl 80 is a bad player just for the level, we are saying THOSE who ask for a group of only 80s for low level dungeons are unskilled and bad players.

Well what you are saying is wrong.

Those that ask for a group of only 80s want to get through the dungeon quickly with the least amount of problems.

Zenith.7301:

You can also make the argument that they don’t owe you anything — no finished personal story, no character customization, no levels beyond 20. It would all be true — they don’t owe you anything. Doesn’t mean it’s good policy, just like restricting fractal progress to characters or not letting you join fractals after a new build is bad policy in my opinion, and last I checked I have the freedom to discuss bad policy that lessens my enjoyment of dungeons.

God forbid people submit feedback on features they don’t like.

I made no such argument. That’s a ridiculous strawman.

All I said was they aren’t going to schedule their maintenance around your preferences. The world doesn’t revolve around you.

Zenith.7301:

Since apparently discussing the irritating occasion of not being let into a fractal after you switch due to a new build merits infraction for “complaining”, I’ll reframe the discussion:

Make fractal progress account wide so people don’t spend an hour and a half doing a lv38 fractal, of which you find few groups during the day, only to not receive the end rewards because new builds are pushed in by the time you need to switch your main in for the personal reward (the “alt” in question has 30 AR due to ascended pendant vs main’s 25 AR, but is lv21).

It’s not good when people get their rewards denied to them because the game is having “log in server error” due to new build instancing.

That type of things happens. You should’ve seen the new build warning and not tried to switch and just simply accepted the reward on your current character.

They are not going to reschedule their whole maintenance/build schedule around your preferences. And you should probably stop before you get infracted again or banned if your post was infracted before.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

Dungeons are Dungeons and Fractals are Fractals. I don’t know anyone else who plays fractals at the various levels who equate the two as the same. They have differing set-ups and rewards people have different expectations for each.

Your denials are irrelevant and doesn’t change the fact that fotm is a dungeon instance.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/fractals-of-the-mists-dungeon-improvements/

Note how it is labeled FRACTALS OF THE MISTS DUNGEON by the creators of the game.

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. Recommended level is a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon. It is not asking for trouble. Now if you are talking of speed-clears, then yes, you do want 80s for that. But unless a group is explicitly looking for a speed-clear, there is no reason to exclude sub-80s.

That’s just plain non sense. Anyone with half a brain would see going to an exp dungeon with only characters at the recommended level is asking for trouble. (Unless you are talking about dungeons like arah, in which case it’s 80 anyway)

SynfulChaot.3169:

If you are arguing sub-80s in poor gear vs geared 80s, then yes, you are correct. But we are talking of sub-80 charas that are properly geared. A properly geared sub-80 can be as much of a boon as a fully exotic geared 80 in the right hands. And a properly geared 80 can be a liability if not in the right hands.

Wrong. Unless you magically get your hands on a full set of sub lvl 80 exotics that are exactly at your sub 80’s level you are not going to compete with a lvl 80 with full exotics.

Not to mention the fact that you don’t have as many trait points or skill points.

sostronk.8167:

But this argument that skill will always be greater than stats is completely flawed. I personally experienced dungeons early and made a concious decision to level to 80 and get decent gear before I hit them up again, because I didnt want to waste other peoples time. All I expect is that the same respect I have shown to others by doing this is extended to me. Im completely cool with people who want to carry and teach lower levels to do it, as long as it isn’t my time that is being wasted.

Exactly. This is not a twitch game but rather a mmo with limited twitch elements. “Skill” is a limited factor.

In fact much more important is knowledge of the dungeon and the encounters.

It’s by the knowledge of the dungeons that informed players like you have realized that to take a sub level 80 to a dungeon is not an optimal use of time nor is it fair to the team’s time.

Again, I want to make it clear that no one said people can’t beat certain dungeons with sub lvl 80s with poor gear, it would just be much slower and more tedious for the whole team and in some instances even cause fails.

SynfulChaot.3169:

DeathPanel.8362:

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

I only speak of sub-80s in the other dungeons. Fractals are designed for level 80s and sub-80s there truly cannot compare. Not wanting sub-80s in Fractals is understandable. It is when they are shunned in the other dungeons (where the recommended level is below 80) that it is a disgrace.

That depends on what dungeon you are talking about.

The recommended level is not a good measurement of what you need to beat a dungeon instance.

I’m not saying you need 80s and good gear for every dungeon.

But then again if you try to go to dungeons with characters exactly at the level of the dungeon you are asking for trouble.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

Account.9832:

JJBigs.8456:

When will people realize EVERY class can do everything.

Wait, so rangers can give their party stability and aegis? Warriors can stealth their teammates? Elementalists can make portals?

I stop playing for two weeks and they add a ton of new skills!

What you didn’t know about the uber elementalist berserker backstab trap build?

You should’ve read the patch notes. :P

ionic.2106:

Sigh, sometimes i can find people on lfgw2.com to do this dungeon but a lot of the time nobody wants to do it. I even ask people from my guild to do it and they’re like am tired going to bed lol. If people aren’t doing this Dungeon shouldn’t that tell AreaNet something isn’t quite right. It’s not any harder than Arah, i just don’t understand why people don’t like it. I need this dungeon for onyx cores and armor and i am getting no where. Does anyone have dislikes or likes about this dungeon?

Because the armor stats are not very popular and the runs take longer than average and require a lot of skipping.

There are some teams that farm only onyx cores that don’t actually beat the dungeon, but those farming teams are rare.

GabGar.4962:

HOW YOU DARE to say you are helping leveling someone when they are helping you get loot and collectibles aswell AND helping you leveling also?

Dungeons are a team work, you contribute or dont do them, simple, no matter the level.

The fact is you have less abilities and stats to contribute with when you are underlevel and have sub par gear regardless of intentions.

The poster you responded to made it clear from his experience having subleveled players in dungeon runs has not turned out well, and I tend to agree in general it does not.

The game’s exp dungeons are setup to penalize teams with sub level players, much more so now after the wp patch than ever. This is a simple fact you either accept or don’t, but it doesn’t change that fact.

Khal Drogo.9631:

At first I was leery of COF P2 as invariably if u are in a party that sucks, u will fail. But I come to appreciate as a filter for bad players (if they are not aware of the new mechanic post patch its ok). I mean if you actually die more than once in 2 or 3 tries in protecting Magg stage, I think its very unlikely you can chalk that up to bad luck.

I am being semi serious here; you can tell who knows how to play their profession and whether they know how to dodge or revive off enemies when downed. It’s even more telling to see who knows how to use food buffs/consumables if and when something hits the fan. Thus it is a nice filter for who to play with any dungeon harder than this.

It’s not really a filter. Bad players will be there regardless since they just assume the party can carry them. It’s just more frustration for those having to carry the bad players that’s all.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

My point is that certain dungeons do and it’s not elitist but realistic to have those requirements for any rational thinking pug team in that situation.

And this is why your analogy fails. This is false.

Barring fractals, no dungeon requires good gear, just gear. And they only require lvl 80 as an entrance qualification. I bet you, every dungeon can be complete by naked players with white weapons. I’d bet money on it.

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s like saying requiring a medical degree for surgeons is “elitist”.

It is if you’d require one to play Trauma Team for the Wii.

http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/GhKr9U1AW_g_U9R6cuVZoCPqetAT7UqC

Seriously, this is a GAME. The second you turn it into a job, you failed.

The analogy is valid it’s just you failed to understand.

In a pug you don’t know the qualifications of your teammates aside from their level, and achievement points. (To an extent you know their gear by the skin, but not the runes or their build)

That’s exactly like how a job interview is. As an employer I don’t know the qualifications of my potential employees aside from concrete things like degrees and documents of past jobs. I don’t want to hire an employee whose qualifications and history I know nothing about and take the chance that I’ll have wasted my money and time and having to fire that employee later.

Having said that, not every dungeon requires 80s or good gear. My point is that certain dungeons do and it’s not elitist but realistic to have those requirements for any rational thinking pug team in that situation.

Uther Deathhand.1570:

I am going to be starting to play dungeons more and was wondering what you would suggest i use for gear. I usually play guardian and warrior ( which would people rather have) should i just use berserkers or rampagers? I am probably going to use my warrior more and right now he is a shout healer/range. Thank you in advance for your help.

Don’t wear rampager if you are playing warrior or guardian. Neither class have viable condition damage.

I’d recommend a mix of soldiers and knights gear and jewelry for guardian(AC dungeon, crafting fastest ways to get it.), and full berserker for the warrior(crafting or cof runs fastest way to get it). If you don’t want to play full berserker warrior you can also go the soldiers/knights gear on the warrior as well.

Fyi, shout heal build is not effective in dungeons. I would take a banner build instead. (With banner traits)