Guild Wars 2

displayname.8315:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Server mergers will NOT fix ANYTHING. IF A.Net merged the servers in NA, for example, there would still be no coverage (or very little in SEA) and too much in EU and NA time. So, there would be waiting lines to get in NA and EU and nothing for SEA.

There is no way to really get 24 hour coverage by forcing mergers. Sorry to say.

We’re talking about dozens of servers here. There’s people online doing stuff at pretty much all times. The real problem is they are all over the tiers and servers, other times they are all stacked on one server.

If your talking about guilds that do their rallys in SEA, maybe it would be hard to get man for man coverage in those skirmishes. Guilds are so fickle tho sometimes they’ll raid other times they disappear for weeks.

The problem is will already overtax the times that are popular without dealing with the unpopular times (SEA for example on NA servers). You cannot merge the NA and EU servers as they have separate server farms. China is totally separate servers, from the rest of GW2, so those cannot be used also.

You can already hit Gari both inner and outer from two places with siege. As far as Hills is concerned (air keep), you can hit inner and outer from one place. Now, Bay (fire keep) is a different story.

Sviel.7493:

Disablers have 1,200 range, which is about half that of an Arrow Cart. With a bit of stealth or an attack from an unguarded angle, they should be usable at least. If this turns out to be ineffective, they could be tweaked.

It won’t make the defenders fight, though. If they’d rather run, that’s on them. Forcing them to fight is not a viable answer.

Like you said, hollow victories are probably the culprit. If there’s no reason to play other than fights, then anyone who plays at a time when populations are not very even is unlikely to have a good experience.

With Arrow Carts skill 3 and 4 – your stealth is gone, you are crippled, and then you are dead.

Remove arrow carts and Shield Gens along with all the Tactivators and the WvW population will salute you.

lmperdigao.2567:

Or ANet could just remove it and make people happy.

+1 Arrow Carts should be removed.

Server mergers will NOT fix ANYTHING. IF A.Net merged the servers in NA, for example, there would still be no coverage (or very little in SEA) and too much in EU and NA time. So, there would be waiting lines to get in NA and EU and nothing for SEA.

There is no way to really get 24 hour coverage by forcing mergers. Sorry to say.

Taobella.6597:

i would like you to add a rank point thingy. that reward stuff on destroying other team siege.

such as point could be like

1. deal 10% unused siege
2. destroying siege reward 0 – 5 supply(pre person that tag siege)
3. gain a random defense boon on destroying siege.(regen 1 minute, protection 30 seconds, Resistance 10 seconds, aegis 10 second, stability 10 seconds )
4. create a fire field after destroying siege. 10 second field causing burn 1s on 1s pulse. hitting 25 target.
5. Gain an option to destroy your own siege refunding 50% of siege cost.(24 hour Cooldown) (to avoid trolling)

really all i care about is rewarding supply on destroying siege other stuff is whatever to me i just wanted to give you a full tree idea.

WOW – this is a PPT’ers dream suggestions – SO NO!

More kitten suggestions for WvW.

FogLeg.9354:

Thats the thread about legendary WEAPONS, there is a small chance they will still create new legendary armors or backpacks. Small chance. Very small…

If they aren’t going to make Legendary Weapons, why would they put any effort into something they haven’t even done before?

No legendary Armor – sorry.

Actually, just make all the DH traps visible, not invisible and that would help a bunch.

TorquedSoul.8097:

Dusty Moon.4382:

This is just ridiculous. Now whole guild, from JQ, have left that server and gone to TC to push TC to T1 and let JQ drop. This is just fair weather type of WvW but the usual for these people who like to manipulate glicko. This basically says, to me, that glicko needs to be scrapped.

Any ranking system could be manipulated by redistributing population. Glicko isn’t the problem, population balance is the problem.

For example, you could have a simple ladder ranking system and it to could be manipulated by moving population around.

So … you know Glicko …
“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
~Inigo Montoya

I have read the original papers on glicko – had to for stats……… Have you read them?

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I don’t know what WvW is like for you guys who are saying defending is easy but it’s about the same as it’s always been where I am…

The only time I complain about siege is when it’s open field. Otherwise, I expect there to be siege in anything we’re attacking. Does it bother me? Not really. That’s why it’s there, so attackers can’t blob everything down with no resistance.

If the blob is big enough, it doesn’t matter how much siege or how many guild buffs the structure has, they’ll still plow straight on through. If it’s only a small group? Then yeah, it’s more of an issue because there are a lot of things you have to work around. Is it impossible though? Not even close… Just don’t go “okay screw this” as soon as your rams or catas die. Can’t tell you how many people I’ve seen just give up as soon as their siege is killed. Like I said earlier, attackers have the advantage of time and resources. Go re-supply, keep pressuring. By quitting as soon as your siege dies all you’re doing is allowing time for that structure to refill, repair and re-prepare for attacks.

Anyway I can pretty much tell I won’t talk any sense in to the zerglings here. Probably have never defended or done strategic small group roaming in their lives, it’d be a waste of my time so… Keep QQ’ing about how easy it is to defend. I’ll be over here enjoying the engagements that come from the attacker and defender roles instead of getting my panties in a knot because it takes more than 3 minutes to capture something.

When a 3-40 man group gets prevented from taking a keep because of 5 people on shield gens, arcs, etc. then it becomes too easy. Then pull the Emergency WP just when your foes are on the lord and Rick Roll them.

Swagger.1459:

Puck.9612:

Or maybe they’re bored because the game is dying and they are looking for whatever little bit of fun they can squeeze out of the game.

Yup.

It doesn’t matter anyway right now, and this will always exist as long as they keep the individual server vs individual server model.

If mega or alliances don’t happen to squash population imbalances then expect more people to stack for tournaments. I know I will for sure.

Problem with Alliances is, like what happened on GW1, the big guilds will align together and crush everyone else. Forced Alignment will not work either.

I am from Missouri, ya know, ‘THE SHOW ME’ state.

This is just ridiculous. Now whole guild, from JQ, have left that server and gone to TC to push TC to T1 and let JQ drop. This is just fair weather type of WvW but the usual for these people who like to manipulate glicko. This basically says, to me, that glicko needs to be scrapped.

Wow – clueless people here. You can place a ARC BEHIND the wall and hit the attackers and they can’t put an ARC down to hit yours. How fair is that.

It is already TOO easy to defend with: Chilling Fog, Dragon and Turtle Banners, Emergency WP’s, Enhanced buffs to defenders, etc. How is it hard to defend? Now you want to sit on the wall with impunity? That is ridiculous.

lol – no – 25 stacks of stability can be blown with one DH trap. Resistance is very weak if not useless.

Also, you shouldn’t be fighting a big group solo.

All they need to do is make sure you slow 50-70% in stealth and can’t do anything else.

Akkeros.1675:

Dusty Moon.4382:

There is nothing wrong with the DBL’s that a few tweaks here and there would help.

Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater as they could always make the ABL’s worse.

just flush the baby and the bathwater
you can tweak a kitten all you want and it is still a kitten

Yeah and people were whining how boring the ABL’s were and WvW started losing players because of that.

Nick.6972:

Wasn’t there already a poll with around 90% voting for Alpine BLs here somewhere on forums?

No – it was a straw poll which basically said we want the ABL or get rid of DBL. Well, not that bad but it was close. Only A.Net could do this and they haven’t yet.

I like the DBl’s.

The keeps are buffed enough – no need to buff them any more. As I said, when keeps go T3, the only way to get in them is through the walls and that takes many superior catas or trebs to do as gates are impossible.

We have been talking about all the ‘Tactivators’ which make keeps almost impossible to take and now you want to make even easier to defend? Sorry – NO.

Swagger.1459:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

Swagger.1459:

psizone.8437:

Remove EotM.

There are more players playing EoTM (especially on the green side) 24/7 than there are on a few servers entirely.

We need those players integrated back into the normal maps before whatever you have planned for a population balance fix.

Removing eotm won’t improve wvw unfortunately or force players back into wvw.

WvW needs to stand on its own merits. You don’t kill a popular pvp game mode in hopes to get a handful back into wvw on your server.

WvW doesn’t appeal to everyone, just like eotm doesn’t appeal to everyone, so we don’t need to create more negative feelings toward the pvp side of the game by removing one for another.

Instead of thinking this way, we should look at the reasons why eotm has done so well and apply some of those elements to wvw.

Why has EotM done so well? They nerfed a lot of champ trains about the time EotM came out so those players migrated to where they can run in a circle getting champ bags. True story.

Let EotM stay. I honestly don’t want players with that style of play in WvW.

Because players are still there playing.

I know you don’t like eotm, but let’s not carry elitist attitudes and insult players who enjoy a game mode. We want to build the pvp community, not divide it.

What game mode is EotM? OH, I know, PPT is everything. Well, that is in WvW now.

EotM should be scrapped.

There is nothing wrong with the DBL’s that a few tweaks here and there would help.

Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater as they could always make the ABL’s worse.

It is easy to defend now – jeez. Arrow carts that don’t have to be able to see to hit people?

Shield Generators, chilling fog, NPC’s who are buffed, Walls that are harder to knock down(more HP) and T3 gates you can’t man mode, and I could go on.

How easy do you want it to defend? It is harder to actually take a keep now.

Y’all have no idea what y’all are talking about.

StormageddonBK.9842:

For me WvW absolutely calls out for simplicity.

Maps are a great example of this and I believe the HoT style of overly complex vertical maps doesn’t suit the game-play of WvW. I think the Alpine map worked well because it was a flat and fairly simple (a bit like a sandbox map) which allowed the players to engage each other without the fluff and distractions now forced on us. Capturing and defending towers meant something and players weren’t stuck in or hindered by PvE events or ships etc. In Alpine when they added ruins in the middle of the map it did lessen the experience for me so the original Alpine was better with the big lake IMO.

I think if we had 3 or 4 varieties of Alpine-like maps in different sizes on rotation it would attract more players and prevent player fatigue creeping in.

I think that is the problem, simple is not what WvW entails. I think the Alpine BL’s helped to start the problems we have now, mainly blobs and PPT.

The RW is not uni-dimensional and war does not deal with just one dimension. It is not simple it is complex and we need to realize that.

PvP is simple, WvW is not.

Ulion.5476:

DBL does not encourage fighting. To big and to many paths that you can use to avoid fights. Then you have all of the barricades in the middle of the map that force you to the outside. On the west side of the map you have 4 paths that you can take to get north and the same amount on the east side. We got a map as complex as the HoT map. Its nice in pve since you are willing to explore a bit but in pvp you are looking for enemies and objectives to take.

Alpine Bl is more open and its easier to see enemies at max distance so you can determine do I want to fight a 1v2 or can I link up with the green dot and fight a 2v2. Alpine Bl was getting stale everyone want something new. I still avoided the events in the middle of Alpine bl the ruins which only helped the bigger server. The old krait island was a treb spot but Zergs avoid the lake and stuck to the outside most of the time.

The point is you need choke points when dealing with a mindless blob (it is not a zerg as a zerg actually sometimes does think ).

The Alpine BL’s, as I said, were terrible maps. They were poorly thought out, just like EBG is (but that is another topic). They were what actually made zerging possible. People complained about the mass blobs continually on the ABL’s.

I did hate the desert BL’s until I learned the ins and outs of them and then I learned to really appreciate them. They need tweaks is all.

MomentofWeakness.1246:

They are not the same, on the Alpine map with swiftness from Garrison lords room to Bay or Hills keep lords room was 1 minute and 15 seconds +/- 10 seconds. On the newer Desert map with swiftness from Garrison lords room to the Fire or Air keep lords room takes between 2 minutes and 30 seconds +/- 10 seconds depending on the route.

This is one of the first things I tested when I played the new maps during beta and again at HoT release because as someone who’s been a commander for 3 years in WvW I care about response time when I am making a judgement call about whether to defend something or let it flip.

They the same, with swiftness, as I said my guild has timed the whole thing. You didn’t use the special cutoffs (the portals) that Gari owners have. We have timed it and it is the same. It is not hard to get to either – in fact Bay in the new BL is even easier to get to since there is a cutoff through the wall right by the west gari shrine. There are videos on youtube that show exactly what I am talking about.

That is why understanding the maps is important, as the DBL are not hard to get around once you really understand them. Even if it was a little longer, so what, people were sick of the alpine BL because it was so one dimensional and WvW because the map never changed. Now that the map is changed, people are complaining.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

robotempire.2451:

lil devils x.6071:

I dont think anyone thinks they are that great, I think you misunderstand. The ONLY way players that left and to stop those about to leave is to bring them back temporarily while they design a new map that is designed from the ground up to keep players engaged in nonstop PvP action the entire time they are on them . It breaks down like this atm:

( Just to be clear we are talking about thousands of players currently)

• Bring back alpine Pre Hot NOW= players come back and agree to wait for them to do other changes.
• Do not bring back ALpine = Guilds waiting for an answer leave for good, and those beckoning them to come with them on other games already NEVER. COME. BACK. the end.

That is the decision being made here. No rosy tinted lens, players are angry the results of beta were ignored and they went ahead anyway. You are asking them to let the guilds leave the game for good. Players do not want them to keep playing on Alpine forever, they just do not consider the game playable at all due to the DBL, and returning Alpine is a show of good faith.

I don’t want players who consider desert BL to be unplayable to come back because I don’t think people who think like that are very good players.

I play a bunch of other games but I still make time for WvW because there is no other game that does RvR combat right now at the scale GW2 does. I don’t think people leaving to go play other games is a big deal. Good, go, have fun doing something else.

I also don’t think a “give me back my ball!”-style temper tantrum about the Alpine maps should be something the devs give two kittens about.

If you have read through the reasons ppl have given as to why the DBL is not a great pvp/wvw map or the ABL is a better one you would realize that nostalgia has little to do with it. All I see from you are empty claims. Can I get just one good argument as to why you disagree and throw all players disagreeing with you in the same “not very good players” basket?

I think you cannot say the DBL’s are bad as they have all the PvE stuff in them and removing those would make them totally different. It would be like adding those to the ABL’s, when they were new, and then saying remove them.

People are forgetting that we were all burned out playing the same old crappy ABL maps. People just forget most times.

Timelord.8190:

The fact is that like 80% of the WvW’ers doesen’t like the map. It doesen’t matter if it’s a L2P issue if they don’t enjoy the experience from the start. You shouldn’t have to learn games before they get fun. This is the most good looking map they have ever designed, but it doesen’t matter if it’s designed around alot of PvE and other elements that we don’t want.

The environment ends up being an annoying interuption of something could have been fun. Take the air keep for example with the insane amount of knockbacks, and then the plaers of on the opponents server sits in a half circle behind the lord with ac’s and other siege. It’s disgusting how strong you made the defendors advantage in HoT. The only way you take over a tower/keep now is if there is small to none defenders. Otherwise it’s impossible.

I also hate the vertical maze design of this marathon running map. It’s so annoying to have to run around forvcer before something fun happens.

We don’t know if it is the map OR all the PvE stuff that is in the maps (since they came out together) – barricades, shrines, the Oasis (which was removed). Do some tactical surgery first before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People were also asking for a change because the Alpine BL’s were getting stale and old and people were bored with them.

For the home BL – they are about the same time. – They really are (about 1 minute to 1:20 my guild has times this) from Hills or Bay from Gari. Home base to Gari is a little longer but not too much but you need to know where you are going.

Going from enemy spawn, only hills is the long one (up and down ramps).

The new maps take a bit of getting use to too but once you do it is easy to get around and there are shortcuts if you know where you are going.

What is funny is that peole who are complaining about the new BL’s stopped playing in the old BL’s because they were boring and were planning to quit anyway.

I will reiterate:

1. Stabo back in WvW – this is an absolute must.

2. Get rid of the kitten items in WvW – Tactivators, Air Ships, Chilling Fog, Emergency WP’s, etc.

3. Fix siege – ARC’s need to be line of sight only – get rid of the Shield Gens – make sure the superior siege cost less to build.

4. Get rid of all the PvE items in the DBL’s. So that the only time you are seen is when you take a Sentry or Keep.

5. Fix the scoring system so that PPT isn’t everything in the game.

Why scrap them – just get rid of the bloody PvE items that make them annoying. Then give people time to actually play them W/O all the add ons. Then see if you like them. The problem is, people are not seeing them w/o the PvE events.

lioka qiao.8734:

Dusty Moon.4382:

lioka qiao.8734:

The chat commander is only doing it in chat because the voice comm is less effective. Voice comm is only less effective when the vast majority of the commander’s followers don’t know or refuse to get on the voice chat.

He might be a good commander, but imagine what he can accomplish if his communication was 20 times faster. Voice commanding is necessary to compete with other commanders who use voice instead of chat. It becomes apparent when you fight guild groups who realize this. Add in the bloodlust where players never read the chat while fighting and voice commanding becomes even more effective.

The zerg moves on when my zerg gets to the camp with the exception of one lone guy in the camp picking his nose or whatever because he didn’t hear or see the moveout command. I tell my zerg the following: “See that guy we just 40v1’d? Don’t be that guy. Get on TS.”

Voice Comm is more effective. The Commander doesn’t have to sit there and type in commands, before moving. Sorry – your point is non-valid. Voice comms are more efficient because they can be done while moving.

Is this directed at me or OP. If it’s at me then read past the first sentence and you’ll see that I agree with your point.

Not you….

nativity.3057:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Chiccotot.7296:

Dusty Moon.4382:

I like the DBL. There is nothing wrong with it, once you understand the map. It is more complex than the Alpine BL, which, was designed like a ‘Risk’ map one dimensional.

there’s A LOT wrong with it.

1. Auto-upgrades – i say scrap this idea, back to basics, have someone trigger the upgrade to actually happen, just remove the gold cost.

2. Towers serve no real purpose – sure they block you and have you take the longer path to wherever you wanna go, but getting towers wont let you treb garri, or bay. they are now just simply aesthetics.

3. relative to point 3 – the map is too big. i know, a lot of people are saying “its the same” …really? then how come northern towers cannot treb middle/garri keep?
same goes for sw tower to bay/fire keep? you cant even hit a friggin camp from a tower. now tell me if its not too big, and if it’s the same size.

4. WayPoints being permanently contested in both air/fire keeps in home BLs …this is simply just a nightmare.

5. Gathering nodes. Nuff said.

6. Too horizontal. Clearly this map has been made with gliders in mind, but because of the possible glitch/glide abuse, it is not implemented.

7. Oasis Event – thankfully they disabled this. As this event just gives the more populated server an advantage over the few defenders…

8. Particle heavy. again, too much aesthetics.

These are the things that i can think of, but im sure people have more in mind.

LOL – those are separate from the MAP design. The auto upgrades are also on EBG – so that argument doesn’t hold water. Same with gathering nodes.

Oasis was pulled out – non-starter.

The map is not too horizontal (they are the same size – they are vertical more) – there is no way they would allow Gliders in any WvW map. From the 3rd floor of EBG, you could get into any inner keep easily. Non starter argument.

As far a WP contested – that is something that removing much of the PvE from the map would fix (anytime a foe takes one of your shrines – it contests the keep).

It doesn’t lag my PC much and mine is 4 yrs old.

If you look at the map and overlay them they are the same size but more VERITCAL NOT HORIZONTAL.

So basically – what you want is the PvE out of WvW – that we agree with.

Did you look at the map and overlay it?

Because I did. And DBL is clearly larger horizontally.

Not that much and your point it about is? More people can be on those BL maps. I really disliked the old maps because of how long it took to get around (the ABL’s) I can get around faster on the DBL’s because I know where I am going – they just need to trim the PvE off (the Wyverns and Skritt and all that I mentioned in my previous post).

They take more of a tactical mind to play than just blob and ram gates with head. That is why I like them. I dislike them for the reason I stated, changes that were made to put more PvE into the maps (more like EotM – barracades, buffed lords, harder gates and walls, etc). Take those out and the maps would be fun to play. Along with reverting the Stabo changes.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

I’m calling bullkitten on that. I’ve hopped around to multiple tiers since the expansion hit, the only roamers I find are now on EBG, unless your idea of roaming are the PvD heroes that jump off cliffs to avoid fighting actual players.

The map is not fine. The map is visually appealing but poorly designed. All the choke points have ended up doing is
-making it so large groups can pass right by each other without ever seeing one another
-funneling small groups right into zergs with no room to escape
-if the stars align and 2 large groups happen to be funneled together you get a boring pirate ship fight because they nerfed stability and increased the hell out of cc.

One thing that happened daily on the alpine map that I have yet to see happen on the deserted map is an epic, several hour long keep fight. The majority of people don’t care to defend, but if there are defenders people won’t bother attacking. They will just move on or map hop because fighting a bunch of siege and annoyingly cc heavy bosses for a structure with no strategic value isn’t worth it, especially when you aren’t taking away the wp they worked hours for.

Bad map is bad.

Well, the main guilds left are PPT guilds and they like to blob – blobbing only works in EBG well.

What time zones did you go in, when you hopped around? That also makes a huge difference since lower tiers do not have 24/7 coverage and even T2 outside of NA (if that is what you were looking at) does not have much coverage. That mostly has to do with loss of players because of the poor design ideas used (Stakittenf, PvE in WvW, etc). Your argument is a non-issue because players are continually bleeding because of these problems I mentioned. At the beginning of HoT there were plenty of players in all times zone on T2, not now.

Chiccotot.7296:

Dusty Moon.4382:

I like the DBL. There is nothing wrong with it, once you understand the map. It is more complex than the Alpine BL, which, was designed like a ‘Risk’ map one dimensional.

there’s A LOT wrong with it.

1. Auto-upgrades – i say scrap this idea, back to basics, have someone trigger the upgrade to actually happen, just remove the gold cost.

2. Towers serve no real purpose – sure they block you and have you take the longer path to wherever you wanna go, but getting towers wont let you treb garri, or bay. they are now just simply aesthetics.

3. relative to point 3 – the map is too big. i know, a lot of people are saying “its the same” …really? then how come northern towers cannot treb middle/garri keep?
same goes for sw tower to bay/fire keep? you cant even hit a friggin camp from a tower. now tell me if its not too big, and if it’s the same size.

4. WayPoints being permanently contested in both air/fire keeps in home BLs …this is simply just a nightmare.

5. Gathering nodes. Nuff said.

6. Too horizontal. Clearly this map has been made with gliders in mind, but because of the possible glitch/glide abuse, it is not implemented.

7. Oasis Event – thankfully they disabled this. As this event just gives the more populated server an advantage over the few defenders…

8. Particle heavy. again, too much aesthetics.

These are the things that i can think of, but im sure people have more in mind.

LOL – those are separate from the MAP design. The auto upgrades are also on EBG – so that argument doesn’t hold water. Same with gathering nodes.

Oasis was pulled out – non-starter.

The map is not too horizontal (they are the same size – they are vertical more) – there is no way they would allow Gliders in any WvW map. From the 3rd floor of EBG, you could get into any inner keep easily. Non starter argument.

As far a WP contested – that is something that removing much of the PvE from the map would fix (anytime a foe takes one of your shrines – it contests the keep).

It doesn’t lag my PC much and mine is 4 yrs old.

If you look at the map and overlay them they are the same size but more VERITCAL NOT HORIZONTAL.

So basically – what you want is the PvE out of WvW – that we agree with.

Ghedoriah.4290:

Couple of things, really.
1) Commander tags are actually a very useful thing in PvE. Due to their widespread use in PvE, they just won’t raise the badge price to anything that can’t be acquired fairly easily. If anyone was then thinking about saying “well, they should split that up and make PvE and WvW commanders separate”, don’t. I seriously do not think that that would be a worthwhile use of their time (because we all know that that won’t be simple) when they are trying to work on some major WvW improvements right now.

2) Yes, they started out at 100g. And at the time, that was a hell of a lot of gold. Times changed as did the value of gold. I remember it taking me months to get to the Golden title (200g) after launch. As it stands, how long would it take someone seriously farming to make 100g? Depending on drops, a couple of days maybe? They’re supposed to be rarer than “oh, that’s not that much gold, I’ll just get one for funsies”. Indeed, as one person picked up on earlier, if a couple of hundred gold seems like a lot to you, you probably won’t get far as a commander. I don’t regularly command, but I even still carry around about 100g’s worth of siege on me in WvW.

WvW tags should be separate from the PvE tags which are basically ‘Look at me! I spend bucko’s to get this TACO over my head’. PvE doesn’t really need them if coordination is really there. It is an excuse, really.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

lioka qiao.8734:

The chat commander is only doing it in chat because the voice comm is less effective. Voice comm is only less effective when the vast majority of the commander’s followers don’t know or refuse to get on the voice chat.

He might be a good commander, but imagine what he can accomplish if his communication was 20 times faster. Voice commanding is necessary to compete with other commanders who use voice instead of chat. It becomes apparent when you fight guild groups who realize this. Add in the bloodlust where players never read the chat while fighting and voice commanding becomes even more effective.

The zerg moves on when my zerg gets to the camp with the exception of one lone guy in the camp picking his nose or whatever because he didn’t hear or see the moveout command. I tell my zerg the following: “See that guy we just 40v1’d? Don’t be that guy. Get on TS.”

Voice Comm is more effective. The Commander doesn’t have to sit there and type in commands, before moving. Sorry – your point is non-valid. Voice comms are more efficient because they can be done while moving.

FogLeg.9354:

Pugs run fine without TS. Guilds run with TS.

LOL – that is why PUIG’s are ‘meat shields’ to most guild groups. A TS system should have been put into GW2, although I know it is a huge difficult problem to deal with.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Fights, fights and more fights……

gennyt.3428:

Cerby.1069:

-1, they are fine as is. It’s just the population imbalances that are causing grief. If you can’t take smc in a 20v20 when 1 side has airship, then you couldn’t take it if the entire castle was removed and it was just 20v20+lord. Meaning your group is simply weaker than the other. Dat pvp law you so want deems ur group to be the loser.

I don’t think we’re playing the same game. The damage and CC from the air strike alone turn it into a 20v40. Toss banners, cannons, ACs and shield generators in for good measure.

Exactly and don’t forget Emergency WP’s, which can pull the defenders in with overwhelming force.

I know A.Net wanted defense to be important, but now it is the Offense that is crippled into the dust.

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Supreme.3164:

They first need to solve server population differences so that mega servers don’t camp SM for all week with nothing smaller servers can do….at least the airship gives a valid fighting chance , was exhilarating to finally kick Seafarer rest in the teeths

They should remove all the WvW gimmicks and bring back Stability. Then, we can deal with server populations. The reasons I posted above are the reason most players left to begin with.

With the Chilling Fog and Air Ship defense (even nerfed like it is now) is too OP. These are just gimmicks, like the Emergency WP, isn’t that what we have Mesmers for? We didn’t have these E WP’s before and defense of Keeps still happened and was actually fairer to the opposing team.

Well, this is PPT data and the servers that do only PPT rate high. The servers that want fights, are low or are dying (FA being a prime example).

lil devils x.6071:

Hate DBL and HATE EoTM maps due to terrian, ( elevation, chokepoints wastes time with indirect routes and terrible building placement, stupid putting camps up ramps ect.. as well) Hate EoTM and DBL gimmicks. Think they would be better off sending DBL to EoTM in their own game mode instead and design maps that keep you in nonstop ,challenging strategic, fun large scale PvP action the entire time you are on them.

TBH, though this is the least of my concerns, I hated the look of Silver waste because of the desert landscaping and when I saw that they brought that same ugly theme into WvW I was disappointed. BUT that is just cosmetic/ skin, I just want the map playable where you spend more time in PvP action than running around aimlessly trying to get to it regardless of the map skin. direct routes flatter maps strategic building placement, fast camp access.

As for " WvW map skins" I like greenery, flowers rainbows and sunshine.. happy places.

There is direct access to camps in the DBL’s, no difference than in ABL’s. Each force has access to camps close to their spawns. As far as getting around, the only thing that could be removed in the DBL’s are the Fences by the keeps and the all the shrines (PvE stuff). That would make it easier to get around.

Dawdler.8521:

But what does any of that has to do with GW2? I’m guessing all above middle tier servers already have public voice coms and highly encourage everyone to use it. I fail to see how forcing it and elitism improve WvW.

It is not forcing elitism at all. It is the basic idea of battle. If you are not on voice comms, how do you know what your commander wants to do? It is the difference between PUG’s just arbitrarily throwing siege down and concerted group effort. That is how the REAL MILITARY DOES THINGS. It is not elitist, it is necessary.

Lord Kuru.3685:

When they don’t delete the DBL, you’ll know that this was all talk, as usual.

I like the DBL. There is nothing wrong with it, once you understand the map. It is more complex than the Alpine BL, which, was designed like a ‘Risk’ map one dimensional.

Just because they won’t delete the DBL, doesn’t mean that at all. Reversion of the ‘Stability Nerf’ would be a step in the right direction. The lack there of, would mean that it is just talk.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Hi all,

This is a great thread. It’s constructive. We’re all reading it and referring to it in team discussions.

As we said in the AMA, our top internal priorities have been population balance and rewards. From this thread, your top five priorities are, in order:
1. Stability & skill balance
2. Fix or revert DBL
3. Rewards
4. Population balance
5. Scoring

Yes, we will take the feedback and make stability, general skill balance, and fixing/reverting DBL our top priorities. We’re not currently working on scoring and that has to be a longer-term project.

Karl is working specifically on WvW-focused skill balance. He’s looking for the wins for WvW that don’t screw the rest of the game.

We’re investigating whether to fix or revert DBL. They’re both a lot of work. These next couple days will be your last chance to give feedback before we make a decision, so speak now or forever hold your peace.

I want to reiterate that everything we work on either ships in April or starts beta-testing on Live servers in April. We’re locking down dev work for the April release soon — next up is localization, QA, integration and regression testing — but we’ll extend the deadline for WvW skill balance.

There is one thing that doesn’t need to get wrapped up into the April release: Friday night resets. That doesn’t require a Live build. We’ll do it.

Mo

Does this mean we will see a patch sooner rather than later? The reason I ask is the longer the patch is delayed, the more players WvW will lose. If it comes out at the end of the year, I am afraid it will be too late (WvW will be dead) and the only people that will be playing are the PPT mayvens and servers.

If you just reverted the Stability nerf, that would bring a lot of players back. That would be a start in the interim (the removal of the Oasis event was a good move also).

The other things that people want to see removed is the Siege Generators, ALL THE BANNERS (I mean Dragon, etc.), the Tactivators, and the Air Ship defense.

lioka qiao.8734:

To be a commander is to be poor, spending money on siege and food. Putting it back to 100g + badges would let us see more tags on the field.

It’s a pretty thankless job but someone has to do it.

It may be that but I have seen some very stupid and arrogant commanders. Just because you have Mithril standing (by plying in EotM) doesn’t mean you understand anything about commanding. This is the issue with commander tags, they should be earned, not bought. How A.Net could get that to work, I have no idea, but I think this would make the best players be commanders.

Liston.9708:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Aphs.9528:

lil devils x.6071:

gennyt.3428:

lil devils x.6071:

Caliburn.1845:

These numbers are not accurate. The API data is still not entirely fixed.

Before the PPK went in and borked the API data T1 was averaging between 30-50% more kills per week than T2.

Or do you really believe that T1 is only as active as T3-T4?

T1 in NA is still significantly more active than any other tier in NA, and once the API is back up and fully repaired, the numbers will show that.

I believe it. The game mode is hemorrhaging out the top. No one wants to play anymore, and Anet will not listen to fix it. I see fellow T1 core players here saying the same thing I have been for ages and no one will listen. When we all go silent, that means we all gave up /uninstall and stop waiting. There will come a point that it was too little too late and they waited too long to do as we asked and they will never consider coming back after that point. MANY T1 players and guilds are setting up house on other games atm. BDO getting most of them for the time being. The same T1 guild rivalries on here are being carried over there. XD

See, this is something that Anet has failed to capitalize on in a major way. The rivalry and camaraderie that WvWvW creates. Instead they try to shoehorn people into 5 man sPvP teams and have at one point actually considered churning out PvE content every 2 weeks (those are nightmarish deadlines) to keep PvErs. All those tiers and queues to the point where they made EotM to alleviate it, but those players just weren’t enough to be worth real, active and continued development? Meanwhile, they had to introduce megaservers and gut dungeon rewards (which I’m sure was at least partially influenced by gem sales) to save empty PvE maps. It just seems off to me.

In the end, it’s people who make the MMO experience worth anything. Even guilds from Archeage are playing BDO. That game will have to seriously mess up for those players to leave their established communities and accounts, castle sieges and GvGs to come back to GW2 in a meaningful capacity and not just log in for dailies. T1 NA is so bad right now that its comical. YB has a map blob in EBG yet they’re managing to flip all the other maps and siege up paper towers. The chilling fog + air strikes in an already sieged up SMC (like seriously, having some of these upgrades should decrease the siege cap, shouldn’t have both).

YB apparently is entertained by sieging up towers, the thing is no one else was, and got bored and left. The players coming on don’t care about PPT, they just want fights.

You mean something like this ?

That is TC in a nutshell also.

Most FA guilds have left the game, probably never to return. The way WvW is setup now, the only players that will still play are the ones that siege hump.

On this last reset, there were so many TC on, that they actually had every single tower in every single BL and all sieged up too.

Unmanned acs are considered as siege humping? 2/3 of those will get nuked down before anyone gets there to use them……

UHH – TC likes to place in areas where even though you can’t see the ARCs, they can still hit you. Like from behind the door, on 3rd floor of SMC, etc. IT is ridiculous that you can’t see them but they can still hit you. Also, TC usually 2 or 3 mesmers in every tower they take and cancer mesmers at that. They can portal any one in – done.

Last night TC outmanned use by a huge amount (we had the Outmanned buff for at least 1/2 hour), same thing with DB, and they still would not fight, they siege ‘creeped’ which is just ridiculous. They came to try and take our Gari with15 against 5, we concentrated on the getting the Golems down they were using (we had no supplies either so no siege) and TC just up and ran away.

You can’t force a PPT server to fight, if they don’t want to, and TC has shown unless they have siege (either in keeps or open field) they will not fight unless they have overwhelming numbers. So, this is why most of FA left, why give TC free bags when they will not fight. FA probably decided to let TC PPT themselves into T1 (along with DB) and then lets see how T1 fares with all siege humpers and PPT people in the top tier. It will be boring, that is for sure. I can see it now, each in their respective keeps with out even fighting each other. I am sure that is what A.Net really wanted for WvW.