Guild Wars 2

someone.7485:

I am wondering who should win a duel between a celestial rifle/nade engineer versus celestial dagger/dagger elementalist if both players are of equal skill. I ask cause I was dueling with a guild mate with these two builds and it was a complete stalemate.

Engineer should win.

Arachnid.4062:

I’d have to agree, I’d also nerf Necro since other than Mes/Thief, Necro/Thief is perhaps the only thing that can burst a Celetank hard enough 2v1 to prevent it from stalling indefinitely and waiting for another Celetank to arrive and spam it back to full health.

Let’s face it, these poor Cele Engineers are already so squishy that having to deal with things like Mes/Thief and Necro is just unfair. Also, please nerf Fire/Air because its passive damage, but 25 might stacks is clearly active and extremely hard to stack.

yep

This IS satirical btw

This HAS to be nerfed because it takes actually skill, expertise, and positioning to make it viable. A team running a mes/teef also has to work very hard to build the rest of the team around it and acclimate everyone in the team for playing with it.

Because it is challenging, and people have to THINK to rotate with it, I think it should be nerfed into the ground so the only viable option is celestial ele, celestial engi, celestial war.

If pvp as a whole drops the whole “zerker thing” then we can have nice fights where everyone bounces from point to point, dodges all over the place, 1v1s anything, has great 2v2s, 3v3s, fantastic mobility, etc.

Anet, please, PLEASE Nerf mes/teef so everything is nice and easy for all of these laid back pvpers, no one wants to play things that are hard, please, please, make this game easier .

Another thread with good ideas about balance, wonder how hard the community has to try to get this done in this game.

uberkingkong.8041:

Why do you downgrade yourself?

This leaderboard is nothing but good.

It gives the community to see real players, that perform good.

If you can solo que and have such a great win loss percentage that’s better than some premades stomping solo que’s, premades avoiding other good players to manipulate the leaderboard.

This guy and Thee Faux are really good players, I haven’t seen neither of them in any ESL or WTS, and I’ve faced some of those so called ‘best engineers’, but when I face Thee Faux I’m more scared to go against him, than those so called ‘best engineers’.

Because that guy seriously carries and you have to be really good to seriously carry.
Drunknpossum whenever I face him, people on my team always think he’s in a full premade. If people think your in a premade and your solo que, that means your hella good.

So stop downgrading yourself, just because nobody wanted you on there team and you don’t compete in ESL or WTS doesn’t mean your worse than those that do compete in them.

I almost died of laughter when I read your post. First of all Solo queue is FAR different then fighting as a team, this is a team based game and NEVER should have implemented any system that is “solo” unless it is designed specifically for solo play.

That being said, the leaderboard should be team names, not individuals with some point or mmr value, so Anyone could see who the top teams are.

When it comes to this leaderboard, twitty is 100% right because, while it is Fun to roll the dice over and over and hope that your individual class and skill can carry harder then the next team it doesn’t prepare you AT ALL for playing in a team. Since ranked is designed for high end team fighting, it should mean a Lot more to beat a top tier team, then to solo in and lose against 5 premades but beat 2 teams.

In my opinion, solo queue as we know it should be abolished, and instead a game mode designed specifically for the solo mentality should be established.

Zoose, the changes that you proposed only takes the might stacking capabilities of celementalist down by around 2. That is Not a major enough nerf that will all of a sudden Not make it able to 1v1 everything, do massive damage in the team fight, and not maintain uptime on 25 might stack when someone else happens to blast a fire field in a team fight. If this were the only change implemented I guarantee it would be hardly noticed.

First, you glossed over the fact that lightning whip/stow weapon is broken
second, CELEMENTALIST NEEDS LESS PROTECTION
third, remove the blast finisher from water attunement.
Also, vigor for days? devs look into that.

Oh before I forget, I am for the removal of 50-100 points off each stat for cele, and IMO nerf holbrek and strength runes might duration a LOT, like hack 50% off a LOT.

Or delete celestial amulet please.

Don’t post too much about celestial or the thread is going to get locked.

Booms.2594:

@chaith commenting on the hammer;sc/f guards in EU

medi guard is strong vs mes/thief comps but completely horrible vs celestial comps. you will only see it in EU until a full celestial team pops up and destroys him.
hammer and scepter aren’t even the most viable weapons vs a mesmer/thief anyway.. medi is just that strong against it.

+1

so, maybe I should rename this guild wars 2 drama?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Firebird.8324:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Chaith.8256:

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I didn’t read the rest of this post, but screw it. Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. Why? Did it get weaker? No. We just gained the ability to have builds that work in pretty much every situation. The teamwork factor that comes with proper rotations is gone. It’s just about matching numbers and being a better cele. There are no “jobs” anymore. I don’t make a build with the intend of a single goal like bursting, support or bunkering, I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.
2. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now. You might go for a focus fire, but that’s not really the same thing. Stomps are also pretty rare now, especially in team fights. No bunker guardian made it so players are pretty much only going for DPS outs, even against things like warriors! DPSing out a target isn’t really that interesting to me. The play of trying to maintain DPS so you can get a stomp off is a lot more interesting.
3. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.
4. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one. If I want to kill a cele engi on power nades, I’ve found that I need anywhere from 2-4 really good bursts to get them down. In a row. They really only need to maintain pressure via burning and occasionally get a few hits in.
5. It DOES take less skill – Is the skill ceiling still high? Yes. There are a lot of things you can do with cele engi and ele to make yourself the best in the world. But the punishment for kittening those things up is WAY lower than most builds. On burst builds, kittening up, having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death. Don’t even get me started on 100 mines and other like yolo builds.
6. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. Engineer has incendiary powder which is really hard to avoid. Ele has drake’s breath which requires two dodges to fully avoid and burns you for eternity (12s on a 6s recharge). Combustive Shot burns everyone. If you miss with this, uninstall GW2.
7. Sustain is really hard to stop – For warrior, it’s healing signet which they never use and traits that regen them. For engineer, it’s a 1/2 cast time skill, backpack regenerator and transmute. For ele, it’s a dodge in water, small healing on all casts, regeneration and two skills you can actually interrupt. The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!
8. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health. I want people to be making PLAYS, not just trying to stall the game/fights. “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND HE GOES DOWN” instead of “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND I THINK IF HE CAN GET LIKE 4 MORE IN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS WE MIGHT SEE SOMEONE DIE”.
9. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.
   
   The concept of a build being able to do everything is broken. It’s called “Holes in Roles”. There are no decently enough sized holes in these builds.

You put into words the thoughts of many, nice Post.

I always found it weird that posts where people are in a flame war get like a billion times more responses than ones that are well written and correct. Two people commented on my post so far xD

I’mma repost that as well, because it is useful. What can you do about trolls? they attack anything.

Please keep this thread drama free, mine has already been invaded.

Dustin.2793:

I am waiting for a response from the comcast internet guy on how you cheat in GW2

Cheating is logging into an alt account to play in a tourney that you cannot enter because of your previous winnings.

Dustin.2793:

Honestly all of you are horrible ill be looking foward to collecting my money tomorrow, pce ^.^.

Try not to cheat to get it.

SobeSoul.6910:

I suppose those mercy runes and double lich and warrior comps aren’t cheese tho

Lich has been nerfed a LOT you should have seen it before

SobeSoul.6910:

When do we get a zerk amulet needs a nerf thread after Firebird got rekt in Karma’s tournament?

umm, what are you talking about man?

Amir.1570:

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Ok so you shave a few points off each stat on the Celestial Amulet! Then what! Elementalists still have crazy burn uptime, still have crazy protection uptime, still have crazy condi clear, still are the only class with permanent vigor, still have crazy sustain, still can stack 25 might on their entire team! Geez louise my frands the issue obviously isn’t Celestial Amulet! Y’all cats need a dose of get good sons!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Also for anyone complaining about might stack changes affecting PvE! Thief Revealed is 4 seconds in PvP, 3 seconds in PvE/WvW! Old Dhuumfire was 4 seconds in PvE/WvW, 2 seconds in PvP! Old Monk Runes were 15% boon duration in PvE/WvW, 10% in PvP! (Hey what do you know! Anet knew boon stacking was OP as poop!) PvP only might stack change would be just swell! Wahoo!

Actually Shout Warrior has perma-vigor too. But why aren’t they as broken as Ele? Because Shout Warrior even with perma vigor can get chain CC focused.

True, if you give it stab to it will be a near cele ele

ArrDee.2573:

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, retired #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Ok so you shave a few points off each stat on the Celestial Amulet! Then what! Elementalists still have crazy burn uptime, still have crazy protection uptime, still have crazy condi clear, still are the only class with permanent vigor, still have crazy sustain, still can stack 25 might on their entire team! Geez louise my frands the issue obviously isn’t Celestial Amulet! Y’all cats need a dose of get good sons!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

+1

Question, Toker, from your perspective, what is your solution to the celestial meta?

Booms.2594:

Dustin.2793:

Booms.2594:

Dustin.2793:

Just to be fair, the original abjured comp utilized 2 celestial amulets. Rabid engi, d/p thief, carrion necro, celestal elex2. After 2 member couldn’t attend WTS, the abjured then replaced two players. After replacing 2 players the Abjured still beat every team in the world with substitutes. The roster was then changed following the WTS. Now, yes it had 3 celestial amulets. Did good fights dominate the NA scene before WTS? Yes. Before Celestial amulet was even introduced! The abjured comp is now 3/5 previous Good Fights. TBH as a berserker amulet i can 1v1 any “celestial amulet” player in this game and atleast go 50/50 win percentage. From a world champion I would advise you to rethink your team composition and tighten up on your rotations before blaming everything on a “amulet”. Also look at your individual player skill, and ask yourself do you honestly believe you can go toe to toe with players such as the Abjured and Absurd.
Now, do I believe celestial could have a few percentages shaved off the total stats? Yes. Does it need to be totally deleted? No. I believe hybrid builds should exist, although they shouldn’t be the most powerful in any stat. They should utilize defensive and offensive tactics in order to be successful. Which I believe they do well now, but could use just a little toning down(not much since I can beat them as a zerker amulet.)
~Magic Toker

also to be fair, when GF dominated there was no competition whatsoever

Well there still isn’t any competition, your point? Sorry big boy, keep streaming your 400 pound dps guard play that no one watches.

well when theres 4 classes that are much better than all the others and you stack top 2 or so players for them onto one team yeah I wonder what will happen.

sorry if youre upset that Im trying to make somethign thats not viable work because I like to play it. But s/d thief is hard right I mean it took me like 2 hours to start owning people with my dodge spams

The crazy dodge spam is almost as unbearable as a celementalist, I hear ya there.

If you haven’t seen it here is the flow chart I’ve slaved after.

Still, if you recall the original intent of this article, it is to portray the fact that teams need 3 or more celestial amulet classes (defined by the flow chart) to be “meta”.

So, if anyone can, please post possible solutions that I would be more than happy to email to Karl.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

It is totally worth for me to break my “no forums” just to tell you all to go outside and do something productive, because this is the most depressing thread of the year…

It is a game for God’s sake…

I’ve been at work this entire time, so I am being productive

If there were literally any other games to play right now, I would until the celestial meta is over.

Aaron.2413:

Chaith, I have no
As far as calling this strategy cheese? The current 5v5 requires better rotations than any meta before… the old fashioned 1-4 was easy kitten compared to this meta.

better rotations LOL, anyone on a cele team can push a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, team fight, as long as you match numbers you’ll win. That doesn’t require any thought, or rotating the correct person to the correct fight, all your doing is having one person say “hey, i need help!” and your entire team volunteers to plus in. In any other team OR meta, if someone says “hey, I need help” it actually requires thought to take action. Seriously backpack, you think this meta has made you some rotation god?

Chaith.8256:

Firebird.8324:

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.[/quote]

Hmm… R O M On Cele War and Denshee on Cele Ele? Sometimes Tage on Cele Guard, but usually not. Pretty much the standard amount of Cele builds.

“I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead”

You’re only being a kitten because I’m providing evidence that you don’t have to have 5 Cele Eles and Engies to be good at the game.

[/quote]

I have never said you had to have “5” I said 3-5, look back a few pages before you rewrite my words. Also, sorry if I seem angry at you specifically, but I have lost ANY shred of respect for you when you trolled my teammates in game.

Also there is a term known as “outlier” which is defined as:
a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.

Chaith.8256:

Firebird.8324:

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

I watched the video from last Sunday when CM beat TCG and they ran a Soldier’s Hambow, DPS Guard Zerker Guard, and Staff Ele.

TCG does not run Cele garbage, so ofc things like soldier war can work against them, sorry I thought your post was meaningful in some way, I was mislead.

Chaith.8256:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

“The game is about 5v5”. That is an oversimplified relic from the days where everybody’s splits were 1-4-0.

The current top level goals are not to build for 1v1s, but to have one practiced duelist, usually not running any utilities specialized for 1v1, and build for fights on all 3 nodes in 1v1s, 2v2s, or 3v3s, in which the size of the fight is always changing.

Also you seem really critical and begrudging towards the top players build choices, what strategies they use, and rotation tactics.

Also the only profession which what you’re describing about being pidgeonholed into Celestial even exists, is for the Elementalist. Soldiers Warrior and Rabid Engi both get play on top teams. You can use them just fine if it’s what you like and you are good at it.

Question, is O-Eggs not working on cele rifile? What top teams are running soldiers war?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Chaith.8256:

Question to people that hate the Cele bruiser meta. Why? Can anyone please articulate their thoughts on the toxicity of Cele bruisers for the enjoyment of the game.

I didn’t read the rest of this post, but screw it. Here’s my reasons why I hate this meta:

1. It Minimalizes Working Builds – No one plays bunker guardian. Why? Did it get weaker? No. We just gained the ability to have builds that work in pretty much every situation. The teamwork factor that comes with proper rotations is gone. It’s just about matching numbers and being a better cele. There are no “jobs” anymore. I don’t make a build with the intend of a single goal like bursting, support or bunkering, I make a build with the intent of being able to do everything.
2. Certain aspects of play are gone – Rotating the right stuff to the right place has turned into just matching numbers. Watching out for bursts is pretty much gone. It’s just outsustain right now. You might go for a focus fire, but that’s not really the same thing. Stomps are also pretty rare now, especially in team fights. No bunker guardian made it so players are pretty much only going for DPS outs, even against things like warriors! DPSing out a target isn’t really that interesting to me. The play of trying to maintain DPS so you can get a stomp off is a lot more interesting.
3. Mobility isn’t a counter – These comps play on all three points. They’re pretty kitten fast too unless you’re taking a necromancer. Thief, ele and engi are all really fast.
4. They’re really hard to duel against – It’s not about getting a good burst off, it’s about getting multiple bursts off while not letting them even get one. If I want to kill a cele engi on power nades, I’ve found that I need anywhere from 2-4 really good bursts to get them down. In a row. They really only need to maintain pressure via burning and occasionally get a few hits in.
5. It DOES take less skill – Is the skill ceiling still high? Yes. There are a lot of things you can do with cele engi and ele to make yourself the best in the world. But the punishment for kittening those things up is WAY lower than most builds. On burst builds, kittening up, having bad positioning or focusing the wrong guy could equal death. Don’t even get me started on 100 mines and other like yolo builds.
6. Burning On Cele is Dumb – This goes a bit beyond cele, but I think it’s a big reason why it works. Engineer has incendiary powder which is really hard to avoid. Ele has drake’s breath which requires two dodges to fully avoid and burns you for eternity (12s on a 6s recharge). Combustive Shot burns everyone. If you miss with this, uninstall GW2.
7. Sustain is really hard to stop – For warrior, it’s healing signet which they never use and traits that regen them. For engineer, it’s a 1/2 cast time skill, backpack regenerator and transmute. For ele, it’s a dodge in water, small healing on all casts, regeneration and two skills you can actually interrupt. The only real good counter is poison, but they remove it so much that you need a crazy amount of poison to do it!
8. Games going to Timer – Because there’s three decaps almost all the time, it’s boring to play and watch. I vastly prefer the super active fights where doing something wrong can spell death, not a slight loss in health. I want people to be making PLAYS, not just trying to stall the game/fights. “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND HE GOES DOWN” instead of “OH SNAP HE JUST GOT THE BURST OFF AND I THINK IF HE CAN GET LIKE 4 MORE IN THE NEXT 10 SECONDS WE MIGHT SEE SOMEONE DIE”.
9. In the ideal game, every build is equally viable – Cele is a meta right now. People want to play their style of builds and not be worse off for it.
   
   The concept of a build being able to do everything is broken. It’s called “Holes in Roles”. There are no decently enough sized holes in these builds.

You put into words the thoughts of many, nice Post.

Ozie.4176:

Firebird.8324:

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

I never have and never will play ele because its a build that I will never be good at, know why? Because it has a high skill cap and actually good eles (Phant, Denshee,Wakkey etc etc) have a 2 year head start on me.

you haven’t seen thrackits video and the miracles it can perform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-asTr2PRAg

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Aaron.2413:

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

I will agree, the cele warrior build doesnt have a very high skill cap. However celestial ele and engi have extremely high skill caps compared to other builds in the game.

Skill caps- Nothing to do with your opponent etc…

Skillcaps mean you are able to do the most things when played flawlessly. IE Elementalists like Phantaram are able to 1v1 literally everyone when you are perfect at 1v1ing, Elementalists like Wakkey are able to peel for their teamates to the upmost degree- Protection, updraft, earthquake, water, earth 2 absorb, etc… The list goes on, my point being, Elementalists and engineers are able to do so much when played flawlessly… yes this does make them more powerful than other characters, but my point was they dont become overpowered until played borderline flawlessly (top tier only, their skill floor is low IE bad players can abuse bad players). Eles have 30 skills to utilize, engi has 25 skills to utilize… This is way more than any other class, allowing them to do way more than any other class when optimized IE HIGH SKILLCAP

I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the scene, but what you just described is what elementalists were supposed to while NOT running celestial amulet. You described the role of D/D. Peeling, healing, locking down ,engaging in 1v1s, popping portal, forcing rotations, bruising, etc were all the norm for D/D LONG before celestial came along. So you know, I accomplished all of this with valks ammy and running double arcane with elemental surge. I played what the team needed. Skill cap is what you do to, with, and for other players using your build and weapon set. Just because ele’s and engis have more skills available, doesn’t mean they have a higher skill cap. Tbh, that’s the kindergarden way of thinking about this game when it comes to competitive play.

Okay, so in your opinion, what has a higher skill cap?

I re-read my response back to you, I was a little aggressive. Those weren’t my intentions. I apologize.

In my personal opinion, no one class has the highest skill cap in this game. This game is about 5v5. You create a team, you figure out what you want to play, then you figure out what works. Ironically, people tend to become close-minded when meta arises. They believe they have to run x, y, or z to be successful. People play for the W, and there is nothing wrong with that. But, copying and pasting any one persons/teams play style will only get you so far. The problem with this celestial meta is that it is SO strong, that it pigeon holes players to run it just to survive in most circumstances. I find it amusing, really. The “top” players right now focus on their small skirmishes and 1v1s. It nearly feels and seems as if they’re building for themselves and in a selfish way. This is a team game, and with that should mean team synergy. So, why the kitten is there a bunch of wanna-be 1v1 hero’s running around? (Rhetorical)

This is why I made a satirical flowchart so EVERYONE can enjoy (cough cough) the meta.

theoutsider.7849:

I actually like this meta. It’s not perfect, but its the best we’ve had so far and I’d watch this meta over Spirit Ranger, Hambow or boring Guardian “teamfight at mid” clusterkittens any day. The power meta at this games launch which you pointed out was horrendous and a big reason why the majority of veteran WoW players left the game after trying it for a couple of months.
You guys seem to be so unhappy with this, without realizing that at any point during any meta people were be unhappy with it.

And it’s gonna stay that way because Arenanet is never going to achieve the perfect balance. It is simply too hard to achieve.

TLDR: People will always be unhappy with anything that happens in games such as this because everyone thinks they have the best grasp of the mechanics, balance and everything else.

OF COURSE there will be people unhappy with any meta, That is why the game should be updated more than once every 6 months to keep everyone guessing, and keep everyone having fun.

No one ever wants to be locked in to playing one thing, the same way, forever.

Relentliss.2170:

I found your flow chart really amusing. There is no doubt that these classes are currently too strong.

The amulet is somewhat to blame. But both engi and ele have more abilities than other classes. This means they are not as prone to the big burst then wait that every other class suffers from. This also means that they have more sustain and deliver more types of damage. They also can stack might easily. All this contributes to make this amulet too strong.

Thank you, I made that stupid late at night and was just glad I didn’t forget to mention a class or something lol

I want to point out, to anyone reading this, that listing reasons why Cele is overpowered is no longer really that relevant. Ask anyone and they know and I’m sure the balance devs are aware of this, the PROBLEM is that no one has a solution.

My solution: Remove Celestial amulet from PvP
Alternative solutions I’ve heard elsewhere:
*add sigil that just removes might stacks on short colddown
*nerf might stacking ability
*nerf specifically elementalists in numerous ways

what are YOUR suggested fixes??

Vain, your post says it all.

Celtus.8456:

As long as elementalists can be viably played at the top level (ideally with multiple builds), I don’t care what the amulet is. Same for all professions.

The feature patch did buff many other aspects of elementalist, in your opinion, if you take away celestial amulet, and played valk with D/D and cleric with staff, would that still be good just not OverPowered, or do you have other ideas?

DevilsGlare.7658:

dylan.5409:

There have been several good posts on how to shave ele and eng without gutting the celestial amulet (and I hope they do).
That being said, this game has too many instant abilities/ broken mechanics to allow for a power/zerker meta without sidelining the majority of proffs imo.
Currently the only proff’s that can play zerker are thieves and mesmers (if they have support) and im not sure a bunch of zerker builds insta ganking each other is more entertaining than what we have now.

Well, we had the heavy power meta about 2 years ago. Indeed there were ganks to be had, but more often than not it literally came down to which team had the most map/situational awareness. “I just burned this ele’s last stun break, spike target in 3-2-1.” This was actually the meta where tons of teams were starting to utilize rez utilities as well. At times, it came down to something as clutch as one team’s necro making a “heads-up” fear on the incoming rez sig. Generally, you couldn’t over extended. Teams had to make pushes together, as a team, and synchronized. Now, people just run around do whatever the kitten they want with no fear of the reprecussions. I think every class has tried and true dps builds.

I know what you mean, Crysis kittenes at me (like he should) every time I try to roam like an ele. (I play zerk power necro)

You want to play ele “Flawlessly?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-asTr2PRAg
You want to play engi “Flawlessly?” ask backpack, apparently he’s the best engi the game has ever seen.

Ozie, do you have any solid suggestions to fix the Cele meta? Since you are, in fact, a celestial D/D ele

Celtus.8456:

Are there free refills of popcorn for this thread? Extra salt please.

hey Hose-sir-ray do you have any suggestions on how to nerf cele effectively? As you are the best staff ele I know. Would you feel comfortable running clerics? valk? possibly glass?

Veritas.3952:

Cele is training wheels, and we now have great mechanically sound players abusing training wheels to win.

WHAT?! other people think that too?

DevilsGlare.7658:

Backpack, be real, cele ele/warrior doesn’t have a high skill cap. The closest to a high skill cap of the three classes utilizing celestial amulet is engineer (and even that’s debatable). Warriors and ele’s are used to sit on point in team fights, and push 1v1s. A high skill cap does not equate to full resets while face tanking any, and all damage.

+1

Aeroxe.8140:

Lol “bird of fire”

/facepalm

Mike.4830:

Okay children, lets break this down.

Bird of Fire is just sitting here, anyone who agrees with him > BRILLIANT +1, anyone who disagrees = Troll

For starters don’t make a “constructive” post and then do this ^^^^.

So, what are the “cures” to celestial. I think most would agree it is NOT JUST THE AMULET, sigils and runes are what make it viable.

That being said, lets look at the “meta”
Engi- Cele (Meta)
Ele- Cele (Meta)
Warrior- Cele (Meta)

Despite these three builds…. almost every other class has representation in top tier
Thief- Both S/d and D/p played at top tier
Necro- Condi played at top tier (no good power necros)
Guardian- Both TCG and CM use a DPS guardian now (correct me if im wrong on this)

Mesmer-recently pushed out of meta, shatter still very viable, it is able to destroy both cele eles and engis

Ranger- simply lacking, needs buffs

Your argument that celestial eles and engis are thrashing you in 1v1s is SOO invalid… your using a zerker necro that is basically made for group fights… you use wells and Lich…. which contribute far more in a team fight than elementalists and engineers….

And yes, i’m going to direct a lot of this at your team because that is your main basis of CELESTIAL OP> EVERYTHING ELSE…
You guys don’t know how to rotate. If you rotated the right people at the right time to the right place, you guys might actually have a chance of not getting 500-0ed by better players. Your mechanical skill is also not quite there, rather unfortunate, but your builds require very little brain activity and there shouldn’t be much of an issue with pressing one button on your keyboard.

The bottom line is this: No build in this game is hard, at top tier just about anything can become viable when your great at it..
I will admit, celestial builds tend to have a low skill floor, but they also have a high skill cap. This game, since it wants to be esports, needs to be balanced from the top down. Currently at the top the only classes struggling are ranger and a little bit of mesmer/guard. I guarantee you, if you guys didn’t 4v5 (res warrior? srsly?) and actually knew how to rotate, you would stand a chance vs actual top teams. Your rage vs celestial amulet is simply because you are at the bottom of the skill floor in your respective classes. This makes Celestial seem overpowered to you. Well, have a good day,
Love, Backpack

I must agree on many of your points, first you do point out that there are builds that are non-cele and in the meta, that is true. You do also think that classes that utilize celestial are overpowered, and you think ranger is not in the meta, that is all true.

There is one key point though that you are missing, the difference between the rotations of a cele group and a NON cele group are that you actually need to rotate the correct people to the right fight. In a cele group, literally any combination will make some of the best 1v1s 2v2s 3v3s, team fights, etc. That is what makes Cele teams SO EASY when it comes to rotations. That is why you think your team rotates SO much better than ours.

Fixes within a reasonable amount of time, even if not the best, is better then 6 months of no change whatsoever.

KarinaCO.6948:

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

I agree with nerfing celestial amulet, but my argument was that it should not be removed completely which was the topic of this post

Ok, I understand that my suggestion is a bit radical, so, what is your suggestion?
I’m not trying to be a kitten btw, I really do want as many suggestions to be out there for the devs as possible.

sinject.4607:

lmao at chaith desperately trying to defend celestial as if it resembles anything near balanced

Chaith prob quit his job to keep making $10,000s I’m assuming he doesn’t want others to have a chance.

DevilsGlare.7658:

Alright, I’ve read plenty of posts here that demand the nerf of the classes that abuse celestial amulet. While I completely agree that cele is out of hand, I’d rather point out my own thoughts as to why the meta needs to shift. No salt, or waterworks.

With all of the prior cash tournaments, and the future ones to come; we as a community, have to go off of the assumption that Arenanet would like to continue to push towards the dream, “Esports”. I would like to lay that as the ground work because this is 90% of my argument, and where I base my ideas off of. If that assumption is confirmed as false by Arenanet, then null and void any of the posts concerning “balances”. So, here’s my thoughts:

A game that is striving to become esports needs to be a spectator sport. Many streamers, and competitive players have said this time and time again. While everyone has their own thoughts as to how to make this better, I will make it simple. The game needs to be exciting to watch. Viewers WANT to see the “oh kitten” moments and the “heads up” plays. Celestial amulets and bruiser builds don’t cater to the exciting moments to be had in this game. More-so than most, this game demands mechanically well-rounded, and fast twitch game play. When one player/team beats another, it SHOULD be based off of them being better than the other player/team. Celestial amulet is so forgiving that it doesn’t truly matter if you dodge or mitigate damage, you can simply face tank it. For the past two major tournaments (WTS and All-Stars), I have fallen asleep while watching the stream due to general lack of captivation. Big plays, get big views. Honestly, golf has more exciting plays than Guild Wars 2 right now.

My goal here isn’t to flame anyone (despite popular belief), or belittle the community. But, let’s be real, players who were considered low to mid tier are now bathing in the light of e-fame due to celestial amulet alone. Reserve the cash tournaments for the players who dedicate endless hours to being better duelists, and team players. These are the type of players who spend hours attempting to be mechanically flawless on their zerk builds because one mistake, or mis-timed dodge, may be the end of them. These are the guys I want to watch, and these are the guys I want to root for. The groundwork for an amazingly competitive game has been laid, but it’s almost as if it’s being ignored so as to appeal to casual players. At the end of the day, I should want to strive to play like my favorite player, or team. I shouldn’t be able to pick up the controls and be playing at the same level as these “top tier” players within a matter of days, or even hours. Granted, some classes/builds have naturally lower skill floors than others, but what I’m asking is for Anet to raise the skill cap.

I’ve been very ambiguous in this thread, so I apologize for not coming with the “solutions” to the problem. Frankly, there’s a ridiculous number of ways this meta can shift into something more constructive for the e-sports scene. There are tons of more intelligent players than I that can dish out multiple approaches for change. If you wanted help, I’d give it. But for the past two and a half years it’s been less about listening to the community, and more about being too prideful to admit defeat. Put your hands up in the air, ask for help, and apply feedback.

TL;DR: Nerf Celestial Amulet.

True Words

DevilsGlare.7658:

I made that into a seperate thread, I was just asked to post this here as well. Forgive me. TL;DR at the bottom.

Ty for putting that here, if we get a cele debate thread getting big enough, something might get done.

Aeroxe.8140:

I’m just amazed at how tenacious firebird is.

I work as Comcast Tech support, I’m used to this kind of abuse LOL