You balance by adjusting energy cost or actually tweaking the values of the ability … you do not add a second mechanic on top of the first.
An increased energy cost would nerf this skill in all scenarios.
C&P from other thread
If I expect to chase player X I may oscillate around 80-90 energy mark to be able to use PT 3 times if they upped its cost to 30. I cannot do this if it has 5s CD even if I have 100 energy. Same with other skills. It’s my CHOICE to use that energy on skills I want and be limited by this and not energy. If I use then 3 PTs i won;t have enough energy for elite/RShadows and other skills but that’s my decision to make. Cooldowns take away a lot from decision making.
That’s called energy management. Being prepared for something and having enough energy for possible counterplay. There’s none of it if they slap CDs on us.
Rev was not meant to be CD & Energy management class. That basically makes energy useless as a mechanic and not needed to begin with if they resort to giving CDs.
PS
skill also sufferes heavily from any form of obstacles, pathing and so on. So often you use it and nothing happens but you just lost 20 energy and now need to wait 5s.
The purpose of Energy was exactly so that we could repeatedly use skill and thus would be unable to use other skills because of that. Do I use Skill X and Y or do I use skill X twice in row instead but can’t use skill Y until I regen some energy? That’s the purpose of energy.
Same like Thieves can spam their attacks until they run out of INI and they can’t use other things. That’s not complementing each other, that’s countering each other.
Properly played rev isn’t spammy because you don’t zero your energy. You keep enough of it to be able to respond to different situations. Mismanaging it will hurt you and that’s good.
Having CD and energy is like saying “here have this to manage your skills by energy but we don’t want you to atually do it so we will not allow you to do so”.
As a heavy Rev player i hate to admit it but these are good changes but dang they hurt.
PT CD is not a good change. Other changes are ok.
Putting another mechanic (CD) on top of skill governing mechanic (energy) is bad. New invalidates/diminishes the existance of the former (energy here). It basically changes revenant into something it wasn’t advertised as. Energy was meant to be our cooldown. If I have 100 energy I can do elite and some other skills or just back to back skill X. If I cannot do it then why have energy if there is no choice.
CDs lock players from spamming the same skill.
Energy locks players from spamming the remaining skills.
Both mechanics complement each other.
The purpose of Energy was exactly so that we could repeatedly use skill and thus would be unable to use other skills because of that. Do I use Skill X and Y or do I use skill X twice in row instead but can’t use skill Y until I regen some energy? That’s the purpose of energy.
Same like Thieves can spam their attacks until they run out of INI and they can’t use other things. That’s not complementing each other, that’s countering each other.
Except Rev wasn’t meant to be a CD management class. It was meant to be energy management class. You don’t see thieves getting CDs on their Initiative skills.
I browse all profession forums Perfectly aware of thieves’ threads
Superspeed on IO is not what is considered gap closer. It’s not a leap/charge/teleport thing. It’s just a movement speed increase ability that comes at a very very high cost. It’s actually often better to quickly turn 180 and use riposting shadows + free dodge than use IO for quick movement boost.
1) Game just came out, new class is still fresh and they already nerf it before gathering more data
2) we aren’t against nerfs per se but against nerfs that hit class design. Giving more and more CDs on a class that was designed and intended to be without CDs and managed by energy is in stark contrast to what Rev was supposed to be. I am slowly feeling cheated more and more because the class is becoming less and less what it was marketted as. You don’t see ANet removing 1 of your attunements. You don’t see Thieves getting Cooldowns on their weapon skills (because they got INI and ini is like nergy).
1) they just gathered data. It’s called the first few days post-launch.
2) Crai crai. They’re trying to balance the game. It’s one skill. The game isn’t about your gratification and nobody cares if you feel cheated. The class is still plenty of fun. Get over yourself.
Would be better if you actually posted something constructive instead of a useless rant.
Understand that unlike other classes Rev is stuck with a Legend’s skills. If they make 1 skill bad then you’re stuck with it.
You lack knowledge if you think no one cares about how I feel. AN does care about how I and many other players feel but GG showing you know nothing about how businesses operate.
You think class is fun. That’s your opinion. I can have mine. Sorry it tramples on your fragile feelings that you cannot handle someone elses differing opinion.
Few days post launch is not enough data. That’s obvious you don’t gather data in 5 days about entirety of pvp/pve/wvwvw and all other elite specs developing. Something that would take them months suddenly takes 5 days? Who are you trying to kid? Yourself?
Please realize that if you lobby for the class to be all energy management and they give that to you, the penalties for poor choice of energy use are going to become harsher and harsher as the class gets tuned and you may regret it.
I am perfectly fine with this. Would make skill difference between two rev players easier to spot. These are still decisions we make whether good or bad. CDs are bad because they take away that decision making entirely.
And again… take into account number of Rev gap closers vs other classes and the fact others can switch out their bad utilities while we are forced to have them whether we like them or not. Because of this inability to change utilities ANet should be extremely cautious with any nerfing here.
Pretty much every class has more gap closers than Rev (maybe except necro)
Jalis has none.
Ventari has none.
Herald has none.
Mallyx has questionable 600 Leap but we will count it as gap closer.
Shiro has Phase Traversal.
Axe 4
That’s it. That’s all we have. 3 Skills for the entirety of the class. Pretty much every other class can have more (maybe not necro :P)
It has to due with guard pull mechanics, both Binding blades and the DH F1 pull require the initial hit to be dodged, after that even evading doesn’t matter, the only thing that would save you would be stability at that point.
So with Jalis it’s dodge + UA (dodge gives stab)
Pretty much! well until you end up UAing into all of the traps that DH insta-casts while your doing UA….
@OP you have many other mmos without jumping puzzles/super mario feel, conversely there aren’t any that I know of that are like GW2 in this regard. For me it’s actually one of the ebst parts about GW2.
It has to due with guard pull mechanics, both Binding blades and the DH F1 pull require the initial hit to be dodged, after that even evading doesn’t matter, the only thing that would save you would be stability at that point.
Unless something changed yesterday I’m pretty sure we’re able to interrupt UA now
nooooo?
You can only interrupt it at the beginning of animation (jumping) but not during the actual hitting. It has evade on it. You can force it out of it by having your back to a wall or similar obstacle so it bugs out.
It was interruptible in BWE1 and it was a total disaster. Easily counterable, useless, less damaging than AA and with no ability to control targets hit by it.
You can intterupt it by hard cc such as lines of warding. Also interrupted UA during windup animation goes on full cd – thats a tip for ppl complaining about it.
I already mentioned windup (jump) and that’s ok. Line of Warding is more along the lines of a wall as in it’s an object UA bugs out on.
Are you guys high? Increase energy cost won’t do any better then 5 seconds CD, it will only hinder your combat ability
You don’t want your gap closer to be gated behind heavy energy cost since all your offensive and defensive skills also use it.
You won’t spam your gap closer anyway, just when you want to abuse/exploit it for fast traval or make fun of a running thief.
i would rather have the energy cost decrease in compensate for the CD, so i can have more energy whenever i gap close to either damage or if needed run away
Level up your energy management. If I expect to chase player X I may oscillate around 80-90 energy mark to be able to use PT 3 times if they upped its cost to 30. I cannot do this if it has 5s CD even if I have 100 energy. Same with other skills. It’s my CHOICE to use that energy on skills I want and be limited by this and not energy. If I use then 3 PTs i won;t have enough energy for elite/RShadows and other skills but that’s my decision to make. Cooldowns take away a lot from decision making.
That’s called energy management. Being prepared for something and having enough energy for possible counterplay. There’s none of it if they slap CDs on us.
And sorry but Rev was not meant to be CD & Energy management class. That basically makes energy useless as a mechanic and not needed to begin with if they resort to giving CDs.
If that cd has to stay, thief has to get cd’s as well on all mobility skills.
I agree. More even, on 3/4th of his weapon skills. Because why not? They can mess up Rev energy management just because so they might as well screw over thieves core class mechanic the same way they did it to us.
Also how many mobility skills rev does have and how many thief does have. There’s no comparison. Our only mobile Legend gets messed up.
Unless something changed yesterday I’m pretty sure we’re able to interrupt UA now
nooooo?
You can only interrupt it at the beginning of animation (jumping) but not during the actual hitting. It has evade on it. You can force it out of it by having your back to a wall or similar obstacle so it bugs out.
It was interruptible in BWE1 and it was a total disaster. Easily counterable, useless, less damaging than AA and with no ability to control targets hit by it.
I didn’t say not to nerf it. I said not to nerf it by breaking class design. So no, it’s not better. I didn;t even use the skill that much. I use riposting shadows at least 5x as often. I dislike it because it goes against what revenant is.
They can increase cost of the ability by 5-10 points instead but they decide to add CD.
I am not new to nerfs/buffs and mmos in general. Since 1997 I have already played many and many alphas betas
I don’t think it should have a cooldown. Make it cost 10 more energy each time it’s used within a 10-15 second interval to limit the spamming. Revenant’s resource management should still revolve around Energy, otherwise the whole concept becomes too neutered and loses the flavor.
That’s also not needed. Simply increasing cost by 5 or 10 would be fine. Penalizing player for having properly managed energy (like your proposition) is counterintuitive.
1) Game just came out, new class is still fresh and they already nerf it before gathering more data
2) we aren’t against nerfs per se but against nerfs that hit class design. Giving more and more CDs on a class that was designed and intended to be without CDs and managed by energy is in stark contrast to what Rev was supposed to be. I am slowly feeling cheated more and more because the class is becoming less and less what it was marketted as. You don’t see ANet removing 1 of your attunements. You don’t see Thieves getting Cooldowns on their weapon skills (because they got INI and ini is like nergy).
The idea behind revenant is constantly, bit by bit, getting destroyed by newly added cooldowns.
Why the hell would we even need energy to begin with if only 1 Shiro skill (IO) would not have CD?
Your idea is bad because it stands in direct opposition to everything revenant was meant to be – energy managed class with no CDs. If we add CDs like 20s we are just another warrior that also has to have energy besides having skill on CD.
On the other hand I don’t care one bit about 5s on shield added because we knew weapon skills will have CDs and that doesn’t stay in contrast with class design.
PS
energy management is not having IO on as long and as often as possible. That’s energy mismanagement.
Because of the phase traversal nerf? Lol i don’t agree. I care more about the shield nerfs.
I think he meant a concept. We are governed by energy and energy + energy cost was supposed to be our “cooldown”. Instead we keep getting more and more cooldowns.
Inspiring Reinforcement got CD
Forced Engagement got CD
Jade Winds got CD
Phase Traversal got CD
These skills didn;t have them.
They keep adding CD to more and more skills and making them longer and longer.
How do you think thieves would feel if their weapon skills received 5s CD? Infiltrator’s arrow 5s CD, black smoke 5s CD and so on?
They should remove it, period. For all the reasons given in 10 other threads. It’s also so annoying to use this skill only for it to bug out on me and wait 5s before using it again for it to bug out again… .
So if I solo some champion HP do they count as already soloable since it’s possible? Or do you consider “soloable” something when it’s basically a freebie ?
What exactly is the meaning of “soloable” for you?
been standing at the Guano Incubated Hero Challenge for an hour now with nobody in sight.
See? Here is your problem. Don’t stand and wait for people to come. Call out to them using /m or LF tool.
Chance is there are many who want to do this but didn’t look for others and didn;t want to stand there waiting.
duh, you really think I haven´t tried using map chat or lfg?
soloable means being able to do them on your own.
Most HC aren´t soloable because of the time limit. They are literally impossible to do on your own.
Again, I soloed many HP (obviosuly not all due to HP, attacks, armor etc). Does that mean it’s considered soloable or is it soloable when someone with 25 IQ can solo it ? Where do we draw the line ?
To me if the game posesses no challenge and is just easy it equals boring. If GW2 becomes too easy then I will stop playing it again. I like challenge but not artificial one. So far GW2 is cool.
oh, the irony.
Giving a boss a ridiculous amount of HP and then setting a time limit so that it´s technically impossible to beat him alone is the definition of artificial challenge.
Yeah. And those are the ones that need changing. Challenge should come from avoiding attacks, reading your enemy skills, using terrain and so on. They shouldn’t require Zerk gear and full kitten dps mode to beat.
As a heavy Rev player i hate to admit it but these are good changes but dang they hurt.
PT CD is not a good change. Other changes are ok.
Putting another mechanic (CD) on top of skill governing mechanic (energy) is bad. New invalidates/diminishes the existance of the former (energy here). It basically changes revenant into something it wasn’t advertised as. Energy was meant to be our cooldown. If I have 100 energy I can do elite and some other skills or just back to back skill X. If I cannot do it then why have energy if there is no choice.
So if I solo some champion HP do they count as already soloable since it’s possible? Or do you consider “soloable” something when it’s basically a freebie ?
What exactly is the meaning of “soloable” for you?
been standing at the Guano Incubated Hero Challenge for an hour now with nobody in sight.
See? Here is your problem. Don’t stand and wait for people to come. Call out to them using /m or LF tool.
Chance is there are many who want to do this but didn’t look for others and didn;t want to stand there waiting.
duh, you really think I haven´t tried using map chat or lfg?
soloable means being able to do them on your own.
Most HC aren´t soloable because of the time limit. They are literally impossible to do on your own.
Again, I soloed many HP (obviosuly not all due to HP, attacks, armor etc). Does that mean it’s considered soloable or is it soloable when someone with 25 IQ can solo it ? Where do we draw the line ?
To me if the game posesses no challenge and is just easy it equals boring. If GW2 becomes too easy then I will stop playing it again. I like challenge but not artificial one. So far GW2 is cool.
I never understood why all you people demanding “hard” content require Anet to provide it. Take off all your ascended armor, your exotics and wear greens. Switch your cookie cutter meta build to something different, use a weapon that is not the defacto standard for your class… suddenly you have challenging content everywhere you go.
Open world is for soloers! Fractals, dungeons, raids, etc are for groupers.
Not using ascended armor/weapons. Not using any meta builds.
Open world is not for soloers only. This is ultimately MMOG. Massively Multiplayer Online Game. Anet should and actually does encourage grouping. That’s why we have ad hoc groups, no kill stealing and other things.
Your very ideology is what makes me dislike WoW more and more. The fact that it’s all about raids atm and everything else in the open world is brain dead spam that’s the epitome of easy. I could spin what you have said and say that I don;t get it why you demand things to be easy. What’s next? Free legendaries and achievements?
It’s fine if some of it is soloable and some of it requires grouping.
It’s not absurd. IT goes up pretty quick actually. You also don’t need to have “all of it right now!”. This is far from grind. Were it asian game it would be like 500000 per item XD
Why are you telling others how they should play the game they bought OP?
Some people like to rush and powergame. If that’s not your thing that’s ok but why do you feel the need to criticize others for their preferred gamestyle?
That currency drops from Nuhoch Hunting Bags you get from creatures killed in Tangled Depth if you have Nuhoch Hunting. These bags also drop other currencies if they drop from mobs on other maps.
So if I solo some champion HP do they count as already soloable since it’s possible? Or do you consider “soloable” something when it’s basically a freebie ?
What exactly is the meaning of “soloable” for you?
I’m not a casual player. I’m terrible at this game. I get lost, trapped, stunned and crippled all through out these zones. However, after a few days of feeling like I was getting nowhere, I really wish I had some friends who wanted to chill and play with me. People to run with consistently would make this a lot more bearable.
My 2 cents.
It’s cool to play with someone. When I could I would sit on TeamSpeak with guildie from WoW and we would explore maps and look for every nook and cranny.
Definitely makes it more enjoyable. Call out to people on the map and see if there is anyone who wants to run with you.
I rejoiced at the fact tha tHOT maps are harder. I still find them a bit too easy for my taste but there has to be a middle ground for those who find it hard already. SO I think current level of difficulty is ok for the most part.
Solo players cannot advance in the new content, and any decent publisher would disclose such a fundamental change prior to taking your money.
False.
Why? Because I solo advanced with no problems. Soon to be in Dragon’s Stand. Except few mastery gated things I have almost 100% of verdant brink, auric bastion and ~80% of tangled depths since i went there yday.
Using Zerker gear. Rev shiro/jakis s/s + hamm
If it’s about something else then do specify in the OP next time. You’re very vague.
I also don’t think they intended for people to 100% finish maps during 1st week :P
Then again I soloed 100% Orr pre-nerf (nerf reduced mob count/density by 50%, added certain WPs that became uncontested, reduced CC abilities on mobs and dmg, added more WPs)
Uh-huh. You would be more convinving if you actually knew what youre talking about.
What sort of nonsense are you spouting now? Everything I said is a fact. You being clueless doesn’t change it one bit.
Just because you’re not good enough to solo most of the things doesn’t mean other players are at your level.
Yes. Vinetooth and some others but I don’t remember their names. It still isn’t effective because tube limit for solo is very very tight. Since are impossible due to armour and hp
Oh and to the ppl who said 5cd is not a big deal.. Gl have fun vs power lock mesmers cripping your mobility to 0. Thats fine tho, right? Small cd, no big deal. Neither chill reducing cd by 66%. unless you..wait for it..waste 30 energy to clean it.
and distracting daggers thieves which also add 10s when they interrupt
Energy is our cooldown. Instead of 5s CD make it 25 energy. So we can choose to use it back to back for 25e each time (takes 5s to regen that energy) rather than gate it behind energy and make energy an illusion of choice.
I picked rev because how i manage energy mattered. How I chose to spend would have particular result tied to decisions I made. With CDs there’s none of it.
Considering I could map-complete all non-heart stuff for each map in about 40min with this… I am not too opposed to the cool-down imposed. I was already basically having to wait for my energy to refill at times but… I dunno if there was a difference, overall. This just means that I have better energy regen between casts so I can use it five times in a row instead of just three before having a significant wait of ten seconds. (My math could be way off on that… I am thinking with a migraine.)
In addition to what meepeY said, you can also target enemies on the other side of walls and up cliffs and then leap through/up it to them… This skill is still, even with the cool-down, by far the most abusable and ridiculous mobility skill in the game.
I agree with this. The tagging is just crazy. It’s like Guardian’s sword 2, then remove the CD and makes it faster/ teleport further. This skill even ignore the rule of terrain gap, able to teleport up a small cliff to a foe.
For those who talked about thief’s SB5 being superior, I think those people never play thief before lol.. That skill is much slower, and the range is actually SHORTER than 900 if you move while using it, and can only use 2 times, and after using it twice, leave you completely vulnerable, unable to do anything.
For Revanent, they just need to switch to another legend to regen the Energy back. I seriously don’t understand why Revenant can bring thief up for comparison. Try posting this comparison in thief’s forum and see how much you’d get flamed.
The better comparison to this skill is actually Guardian’s Sword 2. In this regard, 5 sec CD and 1200 range is still far superior than Guardian’s sword 2.
Overall, I think all the “nerfs” are targeting PVP though, which is pretty obvious.
Btw, if Anet increases the Energy cost from 20 to 40 and remove the CD, people would still QQ like hell. It’s not what is nerfed that people care, but the fact that it’s nerfed that people kittened up. People would kitten up regardless as long as there’s a nerf, doesn’t matter how much and how it is done. So I rather choose the +CD one than making it 40 energy.
Oh yeah ?
Then compare how many mobility skills Thief has and how many rev has.
Shiro was all about mobility, something other legends simply do not provide. This in turn will hurt entire class.
What already hurts is condis
That is by design though. Shiro’s design was dmg and mobility. They just cut it in half at least.
Next we will see 5s CD on Riposting Shadows and 5s CD on Impossible Odds after turning it off and then 10s on Jade Winds… . At that point I will say kitten GW2 and not look back.
Perfectly aware of thieves’ threads