Guild Wars 2

wow guys bottom right corner. It’s a lot worse than we thought.. 6 seconds..??

http://i.imgur.com/sxEMt8j.jpg

1) D/D or anything that pleases you.
2) Berserker. Most damaging stats for us Thieves.
3) everybody is wanted in dungeons, this isn’t WoW. Yes, thieves are needed to stealthly pass a few unwanted groups or do emergency ressing in the midle of fights, which is extremely important.

Amante.8109:

My personal favorite idea is the Thief having a way to switch hands when dual wielding—D/P becomes P/D for example. There would be some problems to solve like how two handed (or two of the same) weapons work with this, but it’d be interesting.

me gusta

just waiting for bwe3 tbh… it’s going to be mission impossible.

^^ yup. There is something missing about the profession, and I have been reading this all over the place. We need a new mechanic or something truly helpful. However we need to think of something else other than the leap/teleport. Other than that, i agree with what you said all the way.

Stealth isn’t the problem.

Core traits are messed up, that’s #1. This mostly involves sustain and survival.
Weapon skill are flawed that’s #2. Involves efficiency in combat.

I would like to add another mechanic unique to the profession, but I do not know what it needs exactly.

after I skimmed through I just noticed silly arguments here and there and I wish we stay focused on discuss OP’s topic of needing a counter play.

I think the only counterplay we need is more power. It’s the true joker card that trumps all kind of other plays. The suggestions of denying Mesmer the ability to create clones is truly interesting, but I say we go straight to the point. We need power.

I want to get to the point where no matter how much pain they have to put us through the sheer speed and cunning behind the Thief will just put them to sleep straight up.

Let them stealth and surprise us, let them hunt us down with Reveal. Power surpasses almost everything.

I suggest a passive that let the Thief become stronger after 30-45 seconds of fighting. Pretty sure the rest, we can handle it.

I am ready to play the Guild Wars version of Metal Gear Solid if they want to.

Well of course it’s unblockable. It’s on the ground laying there. Not moving. Just laying there. waiting for a foot to walk over it.

I mean… How do you block that mate?

Yeah Sir Vincent (and others), I get your point but it’s not the best thing like you mention it to be. 10 seconds was fine, it wasn’t OP, it wasn’t a game breaker (if you want to see what gamebreaker is, checkout all the other elite specs for clues). This couldn’t even be considered a block because it doesn’t even block more than 1 attack.
it blocks 1 out of the ranger’s 10 arrows, So let’s keep it real please. _ It’s a stunbreak + Knockdown_, we really cannot categorize this as a block.

This thing can be life saver, an alternative sustain. Some of us won’t even use it, some will. With all those reveal anti-stealth mechanics forming up around us, we really could use 2 second break/knockdown on a 10 sec CD.

I am just surprised so many people are against something that could benefit the whole profession. 5 seconds is too long for a Thief (with minimal stealth) in combat especially when that change isn’t going to turn us in OP monsters.

This is my problem with the meta hype… people should play what they enjoy and be so great at it, it leaves people questioning their “meta.”

D/P is not viable, i will either go S/D SB with Daredevil traits or D/D – Staff. I see a big potential in these two. S/P got me very disappointed but i still hope it will work out by release.

But for real, anything meta compels people into categories, lowering the overall fun you get. just my opinion i guess..

I tried S/D with Daredevil specs and it was amazingly smooth. The sustain was gorgeous and the synergy with endurance just makes S/D so much more fun.

I tried Staff/ SB, S/P Staff, S/D , Staff but wow S/D SB was just too smooth. Wait until BWE3 and you’ ll see for yourself.

Frankly guys, we shouldn’t be phased by those things anymore. I got kittened when they announced revenant Facet of Darkness then i was like " oh well, i will still kill them. no pity."

Just see it as a challenge, because it is one. Nowadays GW2 is pretty much the “World vs Thieves” , and we’ll just show them that those kitten don’t even affect us us anymore.

I will keep throwing gunk at their dirty drones and stomp their kitten from stealth.

I just read the Scrapper thing…. oh man oh man oh man…

This will be a very challenging time for us thieves. Good thing the drone doesn’t go stealth, that would be just pure evil.

So what is it then? A bug, a mouse issue?

Nephar.3746:

Tarkan.5609:

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

and this is exactly what is happening right now. after beta weekend i feel that daredevil is mandatory to compensate thief actual weakness.
take dodges for another fitting examples…

It is only a trend. It’s new, people will try it out for sure. It’s only natural that demand for DD build will sore. Give it 5-6 months into HoT, and everything will return back to equilibrium, a few Metas will pop out here and there, but the amount of Daredevil that will remain in “service” will revert back to normal.
Nothing will truly replace the core traits, that’s just pure economics.

Escapist’s Absolution cannot replace Shadow’s Embrace. These are all alternatives.

Tarkan.5609:

Kocoff.7582:

I still don’t think it’s completely off.
10 sec CD -> Knockdown
10 sec CD -> more adrenaline

It seems as Knockdown is much much better than adrenaline, but they both lead to a set up where the thief starts dishing damage immediately and the Warrior start dishing damage after a few seconds. If anything, Outrage is less predictable.

Also, given the extreme squishyness of the Thief we are all aware of, we should be better of with 10 secs.

That is true, but you shouldn’t make one skill too strong to better Thief’s squishyness. That will only lead to the necessity of Daredevil in order to take a very strong skill that just outbalances the weakness of the core profession (if you take it to an extreme).

I don’t think the Bandit’s Defense is as amazing as some of you make it seem to be. You see, it is similar to the concept of having sufficient condi cleanse to survive a fight.

A lot of people use Shadow Refuge with the Shadow’s Embrace trait to “outbalance the weakness of the core profession”. That is very strong trait, that’s pretty much our only trait to save the situation.

I like Bandit’s Defense because it is not as strong, it improves my survival, but it still leaves me open to combat.

Idk but just as you said, “Outbalacing[ing] the weakness of the core profession” is only normal, every profession needs to find their way to fill the gaps of their weakness to come out on top. That is why I think Bandit’s Defense is good alternative to other overused defense mechanism we see nowadays.

All i am asking, is leave it to 10 secs. Some others are asking for adittional blocking time, or a bigger window of opportunity for a kick..

I hope you agree.

Is the Kick from Bandit’s defense Unblockable? Is it even dodgeable?

I still don’t think it’s completely off.
10 sec CD → Knockdown
10 sec CD → more adrenaline

It seems as Knockdown is much much better than adrenaline, but they both lead to a set up where the thief starts dishing damage immediately and the Warrior start dishing damage after a few seconds. If anything, Outrage is less predictable.

Also, given the extreme squishyness of the Thief we are all aware of, we should be better of with 10 secs.

I don’t see how a leap is better than a teleport. the More teleports the better, it confuses the enemy even more.

So most people are ok with 15 sec CD on the condition that there is a real blocking sequence.

Others jus think 15 sec is ok.

… I just want my 10 secs back cause I know 15 secs with extra block sequence is too hard to negotiate for.

If Outrage is 10 seconds Tarkan, good for them. I don’t want to be that guy who says “the grass is greener on the other side, let’s burn it”. Plus, suggesting to increase their CD to 15 secs would just lead us to the Warrior’s Forum. We don’t want that. Let’s leave them alone.

Let’s just take care of us. I actually think 10sec CD is just right, it will be strong for the good thief player, and it will be average or useless for the player who doesn’t want to fully commit to the fight.

Let’s face it, Bandit’s Defense is a good utility that also force you to stay agressive if you want it to work as intended. An aggressive should gameplay should have low CDs, naturally.

I got the same impression as OP when i played Necro PvP. The sustain in this profession is so insane, keeping cap points was really unchallenging. Weirdly enough, Rangers gave me a hard time lol.

The only drawbacks to playing necro or anything else:

1. It’s not a thief.
2. WHY SO SLOW? WHY SOOOOOOOO SLLOOWWWWW * melting *

For those who are not up to date. Bandit’s Defense CD has been increased from 15 to 10 seconds. I say that’s a mistake, it should be left as is.

It’s Breakstun, whose primary purpose is to set up oponents. In other words, once your target is knocked down, you could start dishing out some sexy damage. It is a Counterplay. If you are not using it for your primary purpose, you could still use is as a breakstun and just move away from danger without landing your kick.

Now let’s look at an extremely similar skill found witht the Berserker, called Outrage.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage

Now Outrage breakstun also, but instead of knocking down opponents, it fuels the Berserker with adrenaline, the more enemy around him, the better. It’s some form of Counterplay, except the consequence for the oponent is indirect. (He will get sliced just a few seconds later.)

I was one of those guys who thought Bandit’s defense would be unfair for others, without realizing there other skills like this in other professions.

I think Bandit’s defense and Outrage are equal. One has the potential for direct retaliation, the other gets dangerous when outnumbered.

Yet, ours is now on a 15 seconds CD while Outrage is still 10 seconds CD.
Equal cooldown for equal effects.

Discusss.

Karl McLain.5604:

Hey all,
here’s some other changes that happened today.

note: There was a bit of feedback that the auto-attack wasn’t up to snuff. We took a look today and decided that it was quite the case, being that damage on this weapon set is more localized onto the auto-attack.
Staff Strike: Increased damage by 5%.
Staff Bash: Increased damage by 18%.
Punishing Strikes: Increased damage by 20% per attack. Added a missile reflect skill fact.
Hook Strike: Increased damage by ~250%. note: The damage is still on the lower side for the weapon, but now deals more than practically zero. This ability is intended to set up high damage combos through crowd control, thus we’re trying to keep the damage lower than other from-stealth abilities.

Weakening Charge: This ability is now targeted, with the animation being cleaned up a bit. Distance traveled is slightly less, to increase the ease of landing multiple hits on a target. Reduced aftercast slightly (120ms).

Debilitating Arc: Included an evade fact. This ability continues to evade from the start of the ability.

Impaling Lotus: Removed the hidden initiative cost.

EDIT FOR BOLD!!!!!!

okokok…. Now where are going somewhere.

I have a question where do you want the staff to be damage wise? Right under Dagger? or between Dagger and Sword?

My suggestions:

Bandit’s Defense: CD should be reverted back to 10 seconds.

Especially because Berserkers have the same exact break skill, that grants adrenaline. Ours give Knockback, but it’s not anymore dangerous than extra adrenaline for each ennemy around the berserker.
Seriously, we need a reliable breakstun.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outrage

Vault: Dodge effect on jump. 5 Initiative is reasonabe, but if this is too much, keep it 6 initiave, the dodge effect is must. Jumping around to smash people is an extremely flashy and attention seeking effect. It’s either this or taking 7 out of 10 Rapid Fire arrows while using Vault.

Hook Strike: Your argument is completely reasonable. I am not going to question that.

_Edit: I just noticed I just noticed the changes to Punishing Strike. I think that is well thought out sir. With that, we can start to guess your intentions of where you want the weapon to be among the Thief’s a/r,s-e-nal. (kitten popped up)

I like how the only thing we steal from the revenant is their down skill … What happened to us?

Zero Day.2594:

@Kocoff

:P Chill and play other games, follow this one along, it’s actually more amusing that way – watching from afar how things are going.

The other thing that’s clearly showing up is that specs revealed last/later are going to get less treatment (sure sucks for forge and druid, poor rangers xD) – since they’re still working on the ones revealed earlier. Yeah there will always be polish, but try to prioritize…

I am more a one game kind of guy. I go into season where I am stuck playing 1 game for months. I am just bad playing multiples, I believe it’s “unproductive” lol…

THEY BETTA FIX MA TEEF. Fell in love with D/D again, I missed using C&D against Mesmer clones…. then, I realize the current issue with Cloaked in Shadows being a GM trait….

OP is absolutely right. Everything with this profession goes back to the “Why and how long?”

idk about you guys, but when I watch a pvp or WvW vid I think about how I can implement it myself. I think about the tweaks I can bring to the table to better suit my needs.

It’s matter of perspective. You guys see it as a “fart in the wind”, I see it as potential for experimentation.

Either way, OP should still take a look.

Karl McLain.5604:

Being that a player might want to receive increased damage from pistols, but not necessarily inherit the RNG bounce attacks from the secondary trait, this secondary trait was cut.

-Karl

Maybe that Increased damage from pistol could be switched with the that RNG bounce attacks? This should be the primary trait, not the increased damage from pistol. We can deal with the loss of damage from this, but the Ricochet effect is mostly why Thieves picked the trait, not the other way around.

Is that a reasonable thing to ask?

I am glad you answered Mr. Mclain because I right now I am doubtful this profession will see receive any positive light to grow. So thank you. really.

D/P is truly good. I used to watch D/P players in awe before the patch. Now that we have all been forced into, they turned into an-easy-to-read builds.

That’s the real problem behind D/P is that now everybody is running it, and now everybody is used to it, making is very easy to counter.

But for it’s purpose and resourcefulness, D/P by far the best thing that happened to the Thief.

I keep posting this vid. Daredevil P/P in PvP.

OP should take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVXooJU7yg

You came to the right neighborhood at the worst time possible. Sorry mate, we are fighting for our lives here.

Yeah we lost the EA fight guys. People don’t agree, he doesn’t agree. I don’t think his argument held at all either. Saying EA is situational in combat while DF was all purpose?

Absolutely not true….

anyways… I am just gonna let go of that one and watch 90% of Daredevils roll EA because again there is barely any competition between the master traits.

Next BWE, we’ll make a last push.

When I read the sticky post about BWE feedback and i saw a good amount of Thieves thanking the dev for the changes i wanted to go on a serious rampage/ rant. Looks like you did it for me.

Compared to the other Elites, unfortunately, OP is right. All we got for this BWE feedback is " yeah we working on it". I mean Staff #2 STILL doesn’t work like Heartseeker, we got Bandit’s defense nerfed already to 15 secs.

All our other propositions got ignored. idk wtf we need to send them, but my skepticism is getting worse.

If you have the courage to keep your nerves. Read the Reaper’s BWE2 change.

All you read there is buffs, better animation, faster animation, wider aoe, CD reductions, etc.
They are turning into real monsters.

Meanwhile in our forums, you read our BWE2 Change and we got people cheering cause Bound looks less like kitten and because the dev said how he wasn’t sure if Vault should evade or not… nothing to be cheer for guys. really nothing.

That’s not progress guys, those are things that they were supposed to fix. period. no browny points for something that was expected to be done. Especially when half of the change isn’t even good news. It wasn’t even news.

OP is right about pvp and WvW. kitten it’s tough out there to be Thief. My sense are completely heightened cause I know at any moment a D/D ele is gonna mess me up, and i m going to have to Shadow refuge for the 7th time.

I like the challenge, i am actually playing for the challenge, but when you are expected to evade all those dangerous moves, I think it’s only natural to expect that I should be AT LEAST hitting as hard.

This BWE Changes post really angered me. HE completely ignored the fact that they were core problems that are obviously correlated to the elite specs.

It’s the fact that some people out there are purposefully blind to this. I mean I was very positive about this whole thing. However we got tricked by the Dev responding twice to our thread. After that he vanished, and came back with this …. who the hell calls that a change? it’s borderline insulting.

Not gonna spend 2 and a half years playing a profession just to be completely destroyed in less than 3 months.

sorry i m done. I ended up ranting I see…

Does that happen to you?

In the middle of a fight, I get stuck in place, no movement impairing conditions in sight, i am just stuck in place. I have to force an evade a teleportation to move again.
Happen do anybody?

I did not truly pay attention but I have a feeling it happens after I dodge or use D/P #3 or D/D #3.

It gets really annoying in WvW, and it’s occuring with increased frequency.

lol you beat a D/D ele by not dying. That is so true.

I fought eles many times, but there were those times when you felt like you won because you made it past the gate in WvW with like 2 hp. Felt like Victory.

Let’s make OP the High Priest/ess of the Thieve’s Den. Who’s with me?

Still going to be skeptical about it Mr. Mclain. I will wait until next beta weekend to make send another feedback.

TL;DR.

I actually like the SA line, I think it is in a much better position than than the other traits except Trickery which takes the crown. Still doesn’t mean that SA is perfect, and I am definitely open to changes.

Shadow Protector and Shadow’s Rejuvenation should be merged together, two heal traits in a row is a little much even for a line of sustain. The convergence of the two should give space to a new, useful trait.

Cloaked in Shadow… Shouldn’t even be a Grand Master trait. I know Blinding on stealth is what matters, but I am just baffled as to how they thought reduced falling damage on a GM trait was a good idea. Such a waste of potential. Cloaked in Shadow as it is now, is minor trait quality.

As for D/D players or x/D for that matter, I am sure we can all agree that the problem isn’t really the traits that cover them but the skills itself.

Cloak and Dagger should apply blind instead of vul. period. If this change is implemented, I can promise there won’t much of complains against this line.

Dancing Dagger is pretty great. I can’t think of a change I would add to it. Torment maybe? too much. Slow? idk.

Personally if C&D gave blind and a few seconds of resistance I would be happy.

I will only switch if Thief takes another serious nerf. If that happens however, I will probably just quit. I tried Necro and I just felt disgusted. Other classes seem extremely slow once you switch from Thief.

I tried the other classes over the last two and half years and only the Thief appealed to me. so yeah, i ll just quit.

I don’t like to settle with bad designs. We have been doing that for years now, might as well suggest something that improves the trait and but at least, makes sense.

A trait that uses 33% of its components should be considered broken, even if you only care about the 33%. No point having a break stun in this trait that’s clearly about aggressive takeovers, and it shows the lazyness of the design.

I mean it procs every 60 secs can we just have an efficient version it? Is it t too much to ask?

evilapprentice.6379:

Kocoff.7582:

I just read what he said, the dev definitely needs that feedback. However, how does it change anything? If it turns into a rollover skill, I find it gets even more likely that you end up knocking down one of those jagged horrors like he said.

I remember knocking down a few clones/phantasms, but then if am given the choice I do not think I would be able to accurately knockdown the right target in the heat of time.

…Except you would control when the kick went out, if it were a rollover skill. If you were surrounded by AI, you could just take the entire block and let the rollover expire. If you thought you had a chance to get to a worthwhile target, you could maneuver and try to use the rollover KD.

Ok ok I understand now. That way the skill leaves even more options that could truly trick the opponent. I like that a lot actually. Ty for explaining this.

KAAAARRRRLLLLL lol

Edit: my face after I understood the concept
http://skygawker.tumblr.com/post/125193940088/hamiltonians-im-watching-star-wars

I just read what he said, the dev definitely needs that feedback. However, how does it change anything? If it turns into a rollover skill, I find it gets even more likely that you end up knocking down one of those jagged horrors like he said.

I remember knocking down a few clones/phantasms, but then if am given the choice I do not think I would be able to accurately knockdown the right target in the heat of time.

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

Yeah. Still not convinced. I don’t think it’s right to drift away from the “flavor thing” and i think this is a valid argument. They need to develop the Thief on a particular set of ideas. Getting away form that is counterproductive.

“Experts at stealth and surprise, thieves can move through the shadows, vanish into thin air, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which can make them very hard to hit.”

I don’t see 1200 range in any of this. acrobatic moves don’t count when you are at 1200 range, same as moving through the shadows… you are already hard to hit in melee , so this range improve will make it truly insane.

So yeah we keep going in circles. it’s ok.

My list aims more at distractions and easier targets.

1- Thief. – VIP target. They could mess up my rotation pretty badly, including my escape.
2- Ranger- Easiest target.
3- Mesmer – Biggest nuisance

after this line it gets serious

4- Necromancer – Most Threatening & tankiest
5- Elementalist – most damaging
6- Warrior – A Rifle Killshot in the midst of battle and it’s GG
7-Guardian – could easily turn the tide of battle
8- Engineer – not too worried.
9- Revenant Hoping he is dead by the time the time i get to #4

Lettuce.2945:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

1 – Necromancer — troublesome the most, but you cannot take them out alone
2 – Elementalist — you’ll die before you get close
3 – Mesmer — they out stealth you and you’ll die from either burst or affliction
4 – Engineer — good luck getting close to them, you won’t die right away
5 – Guardian — they are squishy but the window is so slim
6 – Warrior — OP as kitten, don’t even bother
7 – Ranger — none existence, even when they are standing in front of you, they tickle
8 – Thief — if you can find them…
9 – Revenant — stay far far away

That’s my list. Feel free to disagree.

Rangers are a hard counter to thieves. Very wrong there. Just proved that you don’t pvp much.

Are you serious mate? He must be joking. Yeah he is.

Woaden.9425:

Rain: Thanks! I think interrupt thief could definitely be a thing int he future.

Kocoff: Nah, I had a pretty serious back issue but I’m recovering and hope to be back in full fighting condition very soon!

I did try staff, I was not a fan. That being said I also didn’t give it much of a chance. For the 1-2 hours I did use it, my takeaway was that it was close, but it needed a few things: better animations, less precast, and/or some form of mobility. If this had a forward/target shadowstep (or a 25% movement while wielding staff), i’d be all over it.

The pre/post casting issues I felt in staff were similar to when they tried to fix SB#3 and tagged on that long postcast animation.

Any pre/post in thief must be carefully considered, especially if more sustain is a design imperative. If we are to live or die by our reflexes then more things should be instant activate, you know?

I see. Sorry about the back but I hope you recover too mate! Keep your head up for sure. I made a Charr just recently hoping the staff animation will look smoother but i ll stick with him.

don’t forget to post your feedback to the dev!

That was very smooth. Kind of surprised you didn’t use S/P with Bounding Dodger trait.

You haven’t done a lot of vids lately, I was wondering if you quit. Does that mean we can except some more action from your channel?

Also did you try Charr Thief with Staff? how does it look?

Interesting interesting indeed. let’s see some more lists!

Sir Vincent III.1286:

1 – Necromancer — troublesome the most, but you cannot take them out alone
2 – Elementalist — you’ll die before you get close
3 – Mesmer — they out stealth you and you’ll die from either burst or affliction
4 – Engineer — good luck getting close to them, you won’t die right away
5 – Guardian — they are squishy but the window is so slim
6 – Warrior — OP as kitten, don’t even bother
7 – Ranger — none existence, even when they are standing in front of you, they tickle
8 – Thief — if you can find them…
9 – Revenant — stay far far away

That’s my list. Feel free to disagree.

that’s interesting, it’s somewhat in order of threat?

Gabriell.4856:

In WvW, tag them all with SB then hide to collect loot bags.

ahahaha such a sad truth.