This was brought up a while back. It was added in with Phase 2. It will likely be relevant with Phase 3.
There’s also a door blocking a cave in westernmost Snowden Drift that was pointed out to me by a guildie – it’s just south of Ossencrest Climb which likely was added with Phase 2.
Even if Primordus was underneath the Maguuma Jungle, I just cannot see anyone using the term “jungle dragon” for him.
Besides, why would Colin say “jungle dragon” instead of Primordus’ name?
Modern Kryta, however, is quite a bit smaller – Old Kryta basically wrapped around the coastline of the Sea of Sorrows, now it’s questionable whether Kryta even has a presence on the bay at all.
Garrenhoff?
Anywho, based on Seraph dialogues in Brisban Wildlands, I suspect that Kryta extends much further west than Queensdale. Said Seraph mention it being weird that the bandits are so far south – not oddly doesn’t mention it being weird they’re so far west. Why is it not weird they’re so far west, unless north of Brisban is Krytan territory harrassed by bandits. And it would just so happen that north of Brisban would be GW1’s Majesty’s Rest, which held Krytan structures, as well as part of Talmark Wilderness, which is said to be a battleground in The Movement of the World, and contained that one village where the Shining Blade camped at who’s name I can’t recall at the moment.
TBH, I think we only see half of modern Kryta, the other half being off the map to the west and around the former greater Giant’s Basin. Lake Doric (the eastern part of what was greater Giant’s Basin) has a prison camp there, so I wouldn’t doubt other settlements around the body of water.
I’d say Tyria exists within a part of the mists, or a universe equal to the mists. […] Since we know the mists are there, I’d assume we aren’t surrounded by water but mist, hence the strange physics.
You’d be both right and wrong in this.
Everything – no exception – resides “within” the Mists. However, the Mists is protomatter and, effectively, a combination of the afterlife and building blocks of reality (the beginning and, possibly, the end of all things) – so it’s metaphysical in nature and thus Tyria, which is physical, isn’t “within” the Mists in the traditional sense of how Earth is within outer space.
Based on the norn Defend the Mists storyline, it wouldn’t be unlikely to think of the Mists as an alternate dimension where instead of outerspace you have protomatter, and gravity (and perhaps other laws of physics) is something that’s quite selective in what it applies to.
That’s how I like to think of the Mists in relation to Tyria and the multiverse on a whole (yes, it’s a multiverse) – to be specific on a whole, that the Mists is the “dimension cushion” between the various universes/alternate dimensions, which acts as the origin of life and the afterlife.
As to Tyria’s shape – we have several globes throughout GW2, so I would be more surprised than not if Tyria’s not a globe. However, I have toyed with the concept of a discworld myself – and got yelled at by my guildies for proposing such.
My basis was on the OP’s observations as well as this:
Seasonal climates seems to be solely reliant on magic/divine interferance. In GW1, Wintersday was said to be the work of Grenth’s interaction – at least in Kamadan if not elsewhere. In GW2, the only snowfall outside of the Shiverpeaks during winter(sday) that exist comes from asuran magical devices. Wintersday held no natural snow outside what was always seen. Meaning that in all of Guild Wars, we only see natural snow occurring in high altitude.
While the calendar has seasons, it’s odd that there’s no physical change to the world – as we can see – that’s not magical/artificial in nature that comes with these seasons. So I really wouldn’t doubt a discworld if not for those globes.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
idk. Does it say they’ve drawn back?
Yes. The charr drawing back is what’s allowed the ogres to move in in the first place. This is outright stated in southern Fields of Ruin and furthered in southeastern Blazeridge Steppes. They’ve drawn back due to the cease-fire negotiations.
It’s outright stated by NPCs that the area is charr land. They are using it, it’s just that they’ve drawn back due to the peace negotiations – and ogres, humans, and grawl have moved in since.
No, Fendi Nin was never called a lich. Only Khilbron, Palawa Joko, and Zoldark were ever called liches in GW1.
And there were vengeful spirits before Murakai too. She was just a necromancer spirit.
You’re presuming that there will be a silence of the six gods storyline, or any elaboration on humanity’s origins. Personally, I don’t see much happening beyond more tidbits the size of what GW2 has already given us. Which is pretty much five sentences worth.
TBH, humans don’t need a connection to Mordremoth in order to be the focusing protagonists against it – just as the sylvari didn’t have much tie to Zhaitan other than “it’s my destin- I mean Wyld Hunt!”
But if you need a connection: Maguuma Bloodstone, Druids, and humans having historical value in the Maguuma (Fort Koga and the “trade route” that went to the western coast).
Kryta and Orr both definitely had a presence in Sparkfly Fen. Though I don’t think Orr had any known presence in Bloodtide.
I suspect that when Mazdak ruled Kryta prior to the Exodus, “Kryta” consisted of what is in GW2, eastern Gendarran Fields, Lion’s Arch, Bloodtide Coast, and northern Sparkfly Fen. Basically stretching from Mazdark’s tomb to The Shattered Keep (if not a bit further south into halfway through Sparkfly Fen). Would explain why in GW1, modern Gendarran Fields was called North Kryta Province, despite the presence of Demetra and the towns that were around during Thorn’s reign (one being at modern Seraph’s Landing, the other having been wiped clean from the map) which was 200 years prior to GW1.
Who says they don’t have blood or bones? Maybe you broke all their bones so they’re unusable – or they’re too brittle. Maybe the blood got all drained in combat.
But then again, is it realistic to have different kinds of blood, some more potent than other? Blood is made out of the same cells, is it not?
Blood from one animal will hold different qualities than another animal. Some blood will be healthier, some unhealthy. Some species’ blood would be usable for some things while another species blood wouldn’t be usable for the same thing.
The same thing is actually true in reality. Blood of certain animals may be used to mix in with sauces for seasoning.
To say Jennah is of the same family as the Ascalonian kings is akin to saying I’m from the same family as General Lee from the U.S. Civil War given he’s a cousin to one of my ancestors.
King Doric was the king of Orr, and all modern royalty has him as an ancestor. This could mean either that it was Doric’s own children to took up Kryta, Ascalon, and Orr in the same means that the Khan-Ur’s children made the four legions, or it could mean that Doric’s great-great-great-great grand daughter married into the Krytan royal family five generations into that royal family, while his great-great-great-great grand daughter on the completely other side of his descendants married into the 10th generation of Ascalonian royal family. Which wouldn’t put Krytan royal family related to Ascalon’s royal family except through cousins nth removed or some mumbojumbo.
I’m not saying they’re not all-powerful in their own domain, I’m saying they are not omnipotent, as it’s not the same thing. […] There’s no such a thing as being omnipotent at something but not in something else.
Omnipotent. Translation: Omni=all; potent=power – together, all powerful.
So saying that one is omnipotent in one domain is the same as saying they’re all powerful in one domain. So yes, you can be omnipotent at something but not in something else. However, you’re also right in saying they’re not omnipotent – since saying that has the implied “at everything” tagged in.
In other words:
“Omnipotent” != “Omnipotent at something”
But both can exist.
Adelbern wasn’t portrayed as mad until that novel came out, you’re misrepresenting him based on a tendancy to take only the most recent writings as genuine. That’s bad research.
While he was never said “Adelbern is going insane” I think he does come off as entering the brink of insanity after the Searing.
Though I may be misinterpretting massive stubbornness and depression being combined into one as being “brink of insanity” – but hey, that IS a brink of insanity for normal folks.
GW1 is its own complete story. And while GW2 uses that story as the backbone for its own lore, the GW1 story is still valid in its own right. If you think that’s nonsense consider this: GW1 can exist complete without GW2, the same cannot be said in reverse.
I never said GW1 isn’t its own complete story. However, GW2 can survive without GW1. If it couldn’t then GW1 couldn’t survive without a game or story about 200 years prior to GW1, when so many massive things happened – Odran, titans coming before the charr, Shiro Tagachi and the Jade Wind, Mad King Thorn and Palawa Joko and Turai. GW1 can survive without a story explaining these as much as GW2 can survive without GW1.
At any rate, if we do things your way and only take the most up-to-date lore as valid, then nothing is really out of the question. ANet could simply write whatever they want tomorrow, claim it as canon, and we’d have to accept it.
That’s not the way I do things or say to do things. Perhaps if you let your personal feelings not blind you, you’d see something objectively.
What I say isn’t “new lore overtakes old lore” – otherwise we’d be taking Thruln the Lost as truthful when half of what he says is outright wrong – what I say is that “objective truth>subjective truth.” In this case, while Savione may be a bit subjective against Adelbern, he’d still be objective in regards to how many children he had. Similarly, the History of Tyria would be subjective from a human’s point of view, and researching more in depth shows other subjective truths which can be used to find the common grounds that is the objective truth.
Ever heard the phrase “within 100 lies there is at least one truth”? Same concept, it’s just subjective truths and objective truths respectively (and less numbers on the subjective truths).
Physics law don’t have any power in the world of Guild Wars. Just look the fractals
Fractals is within the Mists. Tyria is not.
Tyria is affected by physics, but magic can help defy it.
Primordus can make minions out of lava and stone, but it’s a slow process – slower than making minions out of living beings at least.
Yes, he could make another Great Destroyer – there’s a book in Divinity’s Reach that says dwarven legends mention an army of Great Destroyers, in fact. But the same can be said for all dragon champions – any Elder Dragon can make hundreds of dragon champions. I mean, watch the sky during the Arah story dungeon when you get to the dragon champions. Though you only face 3, there’s at least a dozen in the background – if not far far more, and then there’s all those over the skies of the Orr zones, Blightghast that attacked Claw Island, and the dozens of Tequatls.
Take note that Tequatl, Shatterer, and Claw of Jormag aren’t a single dragon that re-appears, the lore is that each event is its own dragon.
The Ring of Fire would make sense for a dragon as well because of the ruins of the Mursaat fortress located there, which is sure to be full of magical items.
Don’t forget the bloodstone or the Door of Komalie.
Someone tell the Pact to get their arses to the Ring of Fire pronto. It’s an Elder Dragon buffet right now.
Jennah isn’t a member of the Ascalonian royal family.
Jennah does not have any known living family members – her father (possibly named Rodrick as there was a king with such a name 60 years prior to the game) died when she was very young and no other relatives have ever been mentioned. She’s said in the human storyline to be the last heir to the throne too (though the Whispers fella says “maybe not” – possibly an indication of potential illegitimate children of the family line like Salma was), so I’m thinking she’s the sole survivor of her family line at the moment.
There were a couple attempts, and I’m slowly making one up in a word document (but don’t really expect it to be done anytime soon if ever). All we got are lore summaries – which just cover the basics of lore more or less – like the link BuddhaKeks gave or the GWW/GW2W’s Lore articles.
There’s quite a difference between an attack that makes spikes out of dirt and rocks, and a magical event that turns flesh, bone, plant, and water into stone.
@CHIPS: There is no single situation where a zombie “naturally forms” – all leaderless/necromancerless undead were formed by some event, usually magical or necromantic in nature – and your “natural ghosts” and “spirits” are essentially the same in regards to necromancy since ritualism isn’t necromancy. Also, you don’t need to be a lich to make those longer lasting undead either – see Murakai, Fendi Nin, and Oberan as three examples from GW1.
Changing the wiki article like that is jumping the gun. Colin may well have been talking about “Mordremoth”- I think he probably was- but he may have been intentionally misleading. Note that he listed every known dragon EXCEPT Primordus.
Isn’t Primordus in the Maguuma Jungle? Well, underneath it?
We have no indication where Primordus is – except that he’s underground.
Besides, he’s ALWAYS referred to as the Fire Dragon/Rock Dragon. Never ever jungle dragon.
Kralkatorrik’s the Crystal Dragon/Desert Dragon
Zhaitan’s the Death Dragon/Undead Dragon/Orrian Dragon
The Deep Sea Dragon is such, or Dragon of the Deep
Jormag’s the Dragon of Ice and Snow
Primordus is the Fire Dragon/Rock Dragon
No Elder Dragon has been dubbed the “Jungle Dragon” before.
There’s no reason to call Primordus the “Jungle Dragon” and then talk about the Maguuma Jungle’s history. Primordus has no relation to the Maguuma’s history.
Also, Colin noted every known dragon except for Primordus because, in my opinion at least, he will be the LAST Dragon we fight.
[…]
I believe Jungle Dragon = Mordremoth, also keep in mind that in the Maguuma jungle we have a second Grove somewhere that will likely play an important role with the Jungle dragon.
I agree with your post except two points:
I don’t think Primordus is last, nor do I think that’s why Colin didn’t mention him. Take note of how Colin was talking about dragons. From the view of GW1 players, which are most interesting to fight next. In other words, Colin thinks that Primordus would be the most boring dragon to face for GW1 fans (I disagree, given how Primordus has access to lost asuran magitech – if he consumes all that, which includes and is not limited to basically six modern Rata Sums… yesh).
The second point I disagree with is that the Grove will hold a major piece in facing Mordremoth. The sylvari got enough spotlight with Zhaitan – it’s someone else’s turn coughumanscough.
Gonna watch this thing now, but as for Primo’s whereabouts, based on in-game npcs, the general notion is he’s in the Maguuma Wastes. It explains the arid climate there now, and from my trip around Rata Sum, it’s been said there are destroyers underneath the city, and that ‘Primordus plagues the wetlands in south west Tyria’
Thing is that the Maguuma Wastes thing isn’t a recent development (we only know it happened in the last 250 years, but not necessarily when – but nothing indicates it being recent, at least), and there’s more recent destroyer activities east of there – such as at Kessex Hills, Lornar’s Pass, or Timberline Falls. Though destroyer activities doesn’t account for Primordus’ location, given how new it is, it’s more likely than Primordus still being in the Maguuma Wastes.
Ah, yes, I see what you meant now. However, that’s not the same thing as omnipotent, which by definition means capable of anything. Unrivaled would be a more fitting word, though it doesn’t carry quite the same impact.
Hence “omnipotent in their domain” – or in other words “all powerful in their domain.”
To quote Kerrsh: “How can beings be all-powerful and yet have more power than other all-powerful beings in one particular “facet” of their manifestations?"
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cipher_of_Melandru
That’s where my basis comes from – they’re not omnipotent per say, but there’s no greater force when it comes to their domain.
@Drax: I’ve noticed the overlapping between Abaddon and Lyssa a long while back. Always found it interesting, and makes me think there was something more between them – be it competitive or cooperative. The former would explain why Varesh went and desecrated a major temple of Lyssa for Nightfall, and why it was Lyssa’s Muse who did the talking in Gate of Madness when the avatars were summoned.
Then there’s also how the depiction of Lyssa’s face on the three seals is akin to Abaddon’s mask in general shape (just keep 2 eyes in mind instead of 6).
That is what i was originally talking about, i was waiting for something to happen back in GW1 concerning the royal line of Ascalon, and as i originally said i had a hunch about a certain person to be involved (Evennia, but who it was does not really matter). Nothing more. Adelbern strikes me as having thought about a successor, and he had 10 years of time not covered between the time of WoC and the Foefire.
To quote Savione: “You impute a great deal of rationalism to a man who had clearly gone mad.”
Adelbern was beginning to show signs of insanity – perhaps through stress – since the Searing – and this is furthered by Savione in GoA (“The Searing drove us from Rin, a shame that imbalanced His Majesty” and later “His Majesty was devastated by his son’s death […]”). By the end of Prophecies, when we meet him again during The Last Day Dawns, he shows signs of having given up on life. He’s a depressed man with little hope but still stubborn by this point (again, reaffirmed by Savione’s words in GoA – “he became more determined than ever to stand up against the charr and prove his son wrong-that he could save the kingdom, single-handedly if needbe.”) – and that kind of personality falls quickly to insanity. I just cannot see in how he’s presented to be a man who’d proactive go about trying to make another child, or bother with a non-lineage successor given his “we will win!” mentality (I wouldn’t doubt he had intended Barradin to take the throne should he fall though).
Besides, if he did such, he likely would have sent that person to Ebonhawke since there’s minor indication that Adelbern sent those people there as a contingency plan of sorts should Ascalon City fall (though there’s also indications that he was just sending out anyone who disagreed with him – another sign of insanity). Since there’s no known announced successor, unless it’d be Wade’s family, he probably didn’t do such and the second situation (he outcasted folks) was more true.
So let me redefine, my theory is that there may be an heir to the royal line of Adelbern yet undiscovered, maybe known to the Order of Whispers, because of some small hints ingame and because it would fit with the overall mood of the game. To me it seemed like you said that it was impossible.
What’s impossible is that anyone – ANYONE – would know about it other than Adelbern himself given that Savione didn’t (and there’d be no point in saying Rurik was his only son if so). And even then, it’s beyond likely. You might as well say Kormir was never human.
According to the charr near the remains of Stormcaller in the Black Citadel, the storm also had thunder and lightning. Though who knows if that’s just the charr trying to justify their humiliating defeat or not.
The braziers were more than just morale boosters as Mint says, they’re often enchanted – as you can see more clearly in GW2 by how they act as turrets or can summon embers.
@Frosch: The Shaman caste was a group of shamans in all four legions – the Shaman caste and the Flame Legion are not one in the same. It’s just that during GW1 most shamans were from the Flame Legion (given how the Flame Legion are magic-centric, this should not be a surprise), and in GW2’s time (that is, after the rebellion), shamans are only in the Flame Legion. But in a similar light, in both GW1 and GW2, not all Flame Legion are of the Shaman caste. In fact, I don’t think the Shaman caste exists anymore (though obviously shamans do), as they seem to be referred to as the “Godforged” in GW2.
This was actually brought up in another thread though the OP had it backwards thinking Elder Dragons were the source of magic and not removing it.
Something to keep in mind that’s interesting is this:
Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: "Defilers! Poisoners! We see you. We know your foul intent. These waters must remain as they are – and you must die! "
This doesn’t seem like one of the risen’s typical psychological attacks that they so love. The way it sounds in game makes me think that this guy truly thinks we are the ones corrupting the land. So by extension, it may be that Zhaitan views himself as helping the world – and the other Elder Dragons may think similarly.
Something interesting to think about.
But anyways, my own wild speculation since that’s all we can do:
I suspect that the Elder Dragons are coalesced magic given sentience. We’ve been constantly told that “dragons are power” as that’s the direction Anet wants to go. Anything that’s draconic is magically powerful. But what if that’s meant more literally? And the fact Elder Dragons need to devour magic to survive? It’s little different than how we need nutrients. Furthermore, from Edge of Destiny, Glint’s thoughts describe Kralkatorrik as “more magical than physical” – so I think the whole draconic appearance is just Tyria’s rule for how something very magically powerful shapes itself naturally. It would also explain why Zhaitan is such an eldritch abomination – though it looks draconic, it’s just loosely so.
So I think that if the world becomes full of magic more Elder Dragons will take shape and begin devouring magic in order to survive. Literally making an endless cycle like the jotun creation myths – even if you’re victorious, the Elder Dragons will return, even if not the same ones.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).
That can’t be quite true either, as in Nightfall Abaddon was defeated right in his realm (granted, he was chained and weakened, but if had been omnipotent in his realm, how could that have happened?) and Grenth and the seven reapers imprisoned Grenth within the Underworld. Both were part of the six gods at the time of their defeats.
Though by what I said that would mean that nothing’s smarter than Abaddon, Dhuum cannot be killed, Lyssa’s the most beautiful thing ever, etc. etc. By domain I didn’t mean realm but what they govern (Knowledge, Death, Life, War, Beauty, and Nature seem to be the prime aspects that they govern – though Lyssa’s less clear and may be Illusion instead, but every god seems to have a “primary” domain which isn’t elemental but metaphysical/action-based with addendum domains that change when gods are supplanted (Grenth governing ice, for example, or Lyssa taking water from Abaddon)).
So Abaddon being killed and Dhuum being defeated but unable to be killed by Grenth does not debunk what I said.
@Frosch: My point about the heir thing is that Salma is a different situation than Adelbern. I recognize the difference, but you’re pointing them out as if there’s a relation. The entire situation around Salma is irrelevant – and I’m trying to show that for why it’s irrelevant, which you agree upon that small part but not that Salma on a whole is irrelevant because it’s a different scenario that happened.
When I say his bloodline ended, I meant that any children he had had no children. He has not descendents. None. The question of Adelbern’s bloodline in terms of his descendants is solved – you’re just refusing to acknowledge it, which is why I called you silly (or rather, I called your thinking process silly because you’re making pre-Prophecies release lore to be stronger than Ghosts of Ascalon).
Yes, GW lore does change, but first hand experienced lore never do. And that’s what we have here – first hand telling that Rurik was the only child, which in fact is a change from old lore in that previously Rurik was only called the eldest son and whether he had siblings was left in the air. However, it is no longer left in the air like you so desire.
The only way Adelbern could have a child – and this is a HUGE what-if situation – would be if he had a secret child that no one, not even his chief courtier (which is basically akin to advisor/scribe or some such, basically Savione knew just about everything about Adelbern), knew about. However, if that was the case, we can outright know that Wade is not descended from Adelbern – or at least, he himself wouldn’t know about his ancestry to Adelbern. Because in such situations, the “secret child” doesn’t know his or her own heritage. And at this point, there’d be no means to prove such because all records would have been destroyed by the Searing, Foefire, or the charr.
So yes, it is possible Adelbern had some unknown child, but the chances are so slim at this point given all the “Rurik was his only child” bits and Savione’s own testament that it’s more likely that Grenth was his own father. And it’s outright impossible for that child to ever be decerned as a descendent of Adelbern outside a one-in-a-hundred-sextillion chance.
“It was a plot device dude”
A plot device that did the exact same thing you’re saying to dislike now. As Hjorje said, all three games were stand alone. Although they constitute as “Guild Wars 1”, they’re still three separate games, just linked together. Nightfall “overwrites” (by which I mean expands upon through revelations of truth over lies) Prophecies lore just as Guild Wars 2 “overwrites” (by which I mean expands upon through revelations of truth over lies) Prophecies lore.
The “conflict” I mentioned is literally the Prophecies manual calling Prince Rurik the eldest son, while other places like The Movement of the World (or was it The Ecology of the Charr) called him the only heir – I hadn’t remembered that line from GoA. Honestly speaking, since the manuals were written before the beta, it’d be less reliable than Ghosts of Ascalon which was heavily edited by Jeff Grubb so that it’d be completely accurate (and they even went and altered the game to make it match the books’ descriptions).
Taking GoA and, in this case, a first-hand account with a “grain of salt” compared to a pre-beta lore write up is rather silly. ’Sides, an only son is still the eldest. It was never said Adelbern had other children.
“And i did not connect Samuelsson with Adelbern, mind you.”
Yes, you did – in saying this: “And even if Adelbern did not name an heir, obviously there was one – otherwise no Wade Samuelsson today.” If there was no heir, then Wade Samuelson couldn’t exist. That’s what you’re saying. Wade Samuelson exists, but Adelbern didn’t have an heir. This is why Wade isn’t the king of Ascalon, but the duke of Ebonhawke.
Again, the matter about Salma wasn’t that Jadon was said to have no other heirs or what-have-you. Even Salma wasn’t named an heir, but it was never once said Jadon didn’t have children.
In the end, Adelbern’s bloodline ended with him – he may have had a sibling who’s family continued on, or the royal line continued through other distant relatives. It doesn’t matter really much, since we know Wade is of royal descent and we know Adelbern had no children beyond Rurik.
Not to derail the thread too much, but I was under the influence that the Ancients were indeed omnipotent? They just choose not to involve themselves in the affairs of the “mortals”…? When they broke the rules they did seem to have omnipotence.
I didn’t know that mere humans could outpower an omnipotent being with technology. /endsemisarcasm
They’ve become spectral beings (thus “immortal” though more like ghosts) and are very powerful and knowledgable, but they’re neither all powerful nor all knowing.
Though the Six Gods are said to be omnipotent in their domain (so I guess that means Balthazar could never be beaten in a physical battle? Probably why he got so angry when he lost in a game of Nui).
The mere existence of Abaddon was removed from history – this was the explanation given for why there’s no mention of him, why there’s always only ever been Five Gods, and why the gods on a whole were attributed with granting magic when it was Abaddon alone who did the task.
Abaddon’s mere existence screams “The History of Tyria isn’t completely correct!” – all Anet did was expand on this.
Your “GW1 lore being changed” has been happening within GW1 itself. I see no reason why it happening in GW2 is any more of a fallacy than it happening in the second or third installment of GW1. Its the same exact situation, just a different installment of the series that it happens in, and different pieces which are being “altered” (though not really).
I think you’re over-exaggerating the state of the charr/human cease fire. There’s no peace or alliance yet. It’s all in negotiations. Rytlock doesn’t have to do anything if Jennah or Wade demand Sohothin – he could give it up, but he’s equally allowed to say “no.” It’s only Bangar Ruinbringer, the Blood Legion Imperator, who is NOT for the human-charr peace treaty (he’s only going along with it to keep on the good side of both Malice Swordshadow and Smodur the Unflinching – the imperators of Ash and Iron Legions respectively) that can outright order him to give it up – no one else.
" And even if Adelbern did not name an heir, obviously there was one – otherwise no Wade Samuelsson today. Salma also wasn’t officially named heir to Kryta by her father."
You’re mistaken. Wade doesn’t have to be descended from Adelbern to be descended from King Doric and the Ascalonian royal bloodline. Keep in mind that Adelbern grew up as a commoner before he was crowned by popular demand, even if he was also descended from King Doric. Adelbern isn’t Wade’s great great great grandfather.
Also, regarding Salma, that’s a case of illegitimacy, but it was never said that Jadon never had a child. However, Rurik is said to be Adelbern’s last living child. So there’s a massive difference in the situation.
“And i know how Adelbern reacts in the AC, it does not convince me that he had no other surviving children or family members. Do you know Adelberns words after completing “The last day dawns” in GW1? He is aware that Rurik is dead. As a ghost he doesn’t seem to be.”
I’m not talking about Ascalonian Catacombs. I’m talking about the novel Ghosts of Ascalon, where he is said to believe Rurik to be alive still. Incidentally, while looking for the line I referred to just now, I found something else that debunks you completely:
Savione scowled at Riona. “The Searing drove us from Rin, and the shame of that imbalanced His Majesty. He began to argue with Prince Rurik, his only child, who advocated making peace with Adelbern’s old enemies in Kryta and taking shelter within its borders. Then Rurik broke with the king and perished while leading a faction of Ascalonians into Kryta.” Page 333/334
I think Adelbern’s chief courtier would know how many were in his family.
And the line I was originally referring to from Ghosts of Ascalon:
“Death has done nothing to improve His Majesty’s condition.” Savione crossed his arms over his middle, resting just under the blade within his chest. “In death, his madness grows. He speaks as if Ascalon City were not in ruins, as if the charr have been pushed back, and as if his son still lived.” page 335
In GW1, the swamp itself was half of the area, the other half was open with cut down trees. I wouldn’t call either a forest or jungle.
Halloween has more lore than what Aaron said, though not much. Basically, it’s a day in which spirits still within Tyria are more easily able to interact with the living. Humans also call it Mag King’s Day ever since Thorn began returning.
I don’t really got much else to add to Aaron’s post. There are other more minor human festivals (like the Festival of Lyss, though that was native to Vabbi, or the Convocation, though native to Luxons).
The norn don’t seem to hold annual holidays, except for the Great Hunt, which is basically a giant moot (aka norn party). The charr’s only known holiday is Meatoberfest (which one can witness in Diessa Plateau). Asura now have the annual Snaff Prize but that’s more of a competition than holiday. Sylvari don’t seem to hold any holidays.
All races were given magic at the same time.
@Khyron: No, it counted to underground races too. However, Tyria seems to naturally create magic on its own – not as a finite resource, but a replenishing one. This indication is given to how magic was usable before the Six Gods tampered with the bloodstone, despite the bloodstone having contained all magic. Furthermore, the asura were once specifically mentioned in an interview as having had magic and they knew that it became more powerful and then weaker but didn’t know why (this being, seemingly, in reference to Abaddon gifting magic).
@Oglaf: Omni-anything is only a requirement for monotheistic gods. Polytheistic gods only need eternal youth, lots of power, and the ability to create life or kill with the blink of an eye (except when magical artifacts or other gods are involved). At least in standard mythology.
Hell, most mythologies represent gods more as just higher beings than something that deserves worship because it’s all great stuff. And the Six Gods follow this.
If you’ve ever seen Starget SG1, you can think of polytheistic gods as the ascended Ancients.
A mere misinterpretation as thus far you’ve been arguing all about Prophecies’ lore being changed in GW2, and I’ve been trying to show that Prophecies’ lore was shown as “wrong” in GW1 in the same manner as it is in GW2.
As for your last question – I’m saying facts from the History of Tyria (and elsewhere in Prophecies/Prophecies’ manual) not that specific fact have been proven wrong (in part) in all three campaigns of GW1. What’s the most obvious thing NF proves wrong? Abaddon.
Also, iirc means “if I remember correctly”
The Maguuma Jungle is what lies west of Kryta, and north of the Ring of Fire. It reaches to the western coast, which by all indication is not that far off of the map. Mount Maelstrom and Sparkfly Fen are only part of the Maguuma Jungle (and in GW1, Sparkfly Swamp as part of the Tarnished Coast) in mechanics alone.
@Aaron: Maguuma Wastes is the northern part of the Maguuma Jungle.
@Tuomir: Wrong. The Tarnished Coast is the coast of the Maguuma Jungle – Caledon Forest, the Grove, Rata Sum, and the unexplorable areas between more or less. Sparfkly Fen is, in lore, part of Kryta and Orr. Furthermore, in GW1, Sparkfly Swamp was, a swamp, not a jungle.
On that mentality about the Risen Knights, you should get a closer look – because it seems like they’re made with said appearance the same way the Risen Abominations are. That “draconic head” looks more like a helmet/hood of flesh – probably sewn on.
Actually, it can be. Because, again last heir was Rurik. Rurik was called the eldest son in the Prophecies manual, so Adelbern likely had younger sons, but if Rurik was the last heir, they all died off before Rurik (who died in 1072 AE).
Rurik’s death drove Adelbern further into insanity, so if he had other children still alive, I doubt that he’d be affected so much by Rurik’s death to the point where he believes Rurik may return when in modern GW2 times.
And I’m pretty sure the charr fall under “if you can take it, its yours” mentality – I mean, Rytlock gained his rank by killing his superiors, and you do the same in the Blood Legion storyline (though you don’t have to kill your superior, you can, but you always best him). From what I’ve seen in both Edge of Destiny and Guild Wars 2, Rytlock seems fully intent on keeping his sword.
That’s what made titans so enjoyable (for me at least) – their “chain spawning” as you put it alongside their animations.
The hive doesn’t die. Plus we don’t know how long sylvari lives, or what would happen when sylvari reach their lifespan, or even if the Pale Tree can make more of her kind. Based on plants, then sylvari and sylvan hounds should hold seeds (if not being seeds) that would sprout into more “Pale Trees.”
All three known sylvari graves have some sort of unique plant – two cases being a tree, though the third is within a swamp that’s had a history of necromantic magic in it – growing there.
Well, Oglaf … you do realize that there were other seeds in the cave where Ronan found the Pale Tree’s?
Caravan. Caravan. As in, the White Mantle for some reason had the seed and he stole it.
I’m more worried about what the White Mantle was planning on doing with it.
Not Caravan. Cavern
“This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, [sic] while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World
You put a torch to the Pale Tree and that is the end for the Sylvari.
EDIT: The Sylvari as we know them.
One word:
Malyck
Other trees spawning sylvari exist location unknown to the other races. So your argument is now null.
The Fury – Dhuum’s general – was the one creating Titans and the location is irrelevant. Titans can be made outside the Foundry of Failed Creations. And the seer’s line – and a Forgotten’s line – imply that the titans predate the Six Gods’ time on Tyria.
And I agree with Lutinz’ theory – the support being that they are made from tormented souls. Though the exact process is unknown, if a soul is agonized enough, a titan may form on its own. Given the two lines’ indication – that the titans existed as long as the forgotten, and that the seers knew them “eons ago” – I wouldn’t doubt that they’re not dependent on Dhuum/the Fury for being made.
There’s also a single mention of “the Archons” with the context of being responsible for being given dangerous research, iirc. Though nothing else is known about them.
Rurik was Adelbern’s last heir, so he didn’t have any children. But we know of someone from the Ascalonian royal line as has been pointed out already: Wade Samuelson – the duke of Ebonhawke and commander of the Ebon Vanguard. Whether his ancestor was Barradin or someone else is unknown though.
And why would Rytlock give Sohothin back? Its his, and Logan has/will have a reforged Magdaer thanks to Eir and Rytlock.
I just don’t think that they produced GW1 with a mindset like “well I hope it sells, because this is just the intro patch for the real game.”
And here, you’d be wrong. Before Prophecies’ release (or was it Factions’? Drax would know more than me) they talked about how they intended to have the full story shown in steps of three – meaning that from the get go they were planning up to Nightfall, even if not in detail.
The first “full” story would have been Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall. But they in of themsleves were their own complete game.
My issue is simply that they chose to bend or change certain aspects of GW1 lore to better suit their current needs. I don’t buy the argument that GW1 lore was always supposed to be human “legend-speak” for lack of a better word.
No, not all of it. But from the very beginning, the History of Tyria – the sole source of the Six Gods having been the creators of the Bloodstone iirc – was by all indication not entirely truthful since Nightfall, not GW2. And other facts of the Prophecies manual was “wrong” since Prophecies as well.
Can you tell me a case where a man grows a dragonhead and wings? Corruption, corruption.
Could you cite me the line where Forgal states expressly that Primordus hasn’t been reported corrupting living beings? Also, nowhere in the dialogue is it implied that the Destroyer Queen could possibly have been created. The line stating “it might be a new kind of minion” would mean it’s a corrupted minion that has started breeding after being corrupted.
None of the minions of Zhaitan are created, yet there are numerous types of minions, some differ by the base of corruption, some by how extensive the corruption is, some by special tasks the kind of minion was created through corrupting a corpse. Just because it’s said to be possibly a new kind of minion doesn’t necessarily mean it was possibly created from lava.Forgal’s notion on learning new tricks would simply refer to corrupting a creature that was pregnant at the time of corruption, or in the other case, corrupting a creature so that it can lay eggs (from which hatch full grown crabs and even trolls, yes).
Though I don’t see what a man having a draconic head and wings has to do with the Destroyer Queen… Risen Knights.
For what Forgal says, it’s when you talk to Forgal at the end of Rat-tastrophy.
You ask: “What do you know about destroyers?”
Forgal says: "They’re the minions of the Elder Dragon Primordus. Primordus usually animates stone into living, breathing nightmares, but these “eggs” tell me it may be learning new tricks."
And how do you get “breeding after its corrupted” when Primordus corrupting new beings is brand new to all known knowledge? By now, it seems like you’re just spouting what you want to spout without even looking into it.
You know what? I don’t care if you respond, because it’s obvious that you won’t be convinced because you’re refusing to look at more than just your determined view on the matter, ignoring all other facts around you and saying “yes it is possible!” for something that makes no sense at all. Like crabs giving birth to trolls.
This is the concept art you’re thinking of, right? It’s a charr.
TBH, I don’t think there’s much meaning behind them. I mean, there’s the old concept art of Rytlock in the Chamber of Ministers in the Upper City, and there’s an image of a charr killing a human with a frame titled “Minister Beetlestone” in Vigil Keep.
Sometimes, I think they just chose images at random.
Actually, yes, they are surprised. It’s also outright stated by Forgal for Vigil members that Primordus has never been reported to corrupt living creatures prior to that moment, and even then he (and Tybalt and Seiran as well) are not sure if it’s a corrupted creature or a new creation.
Though any lack of “ohhh!” for surprise would likely due to how all other known Elder Dragons (to the PC/orders at that point) can and do corrupt organic beings.
And if there’s a retcon, it’s a retcon to Edge of Destiny too. However, I don’t see such a retcon, given my points above – particularly Forgal’s line about how that if the Destroyer Queen was a corrupted living crab, then it’s be Primordus “learning new tricks.”
Though I once more digress that a crab cannot lay an egg that spawns a troll – and there are destroyer eggs which spawn Destroyer Trolls as well as Destroyer Crab Hatchlings and even Destroyer Crabs. If you can point out a case to me where a crab is born fully grown, let alone where a crab gives birth to a troll, then maybe it is indeed possible.
The issue you’re having, Tuomir, is that you’re not looking at the full picture.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
The Asura’s civilization is peaceful
PFFFWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The asura are narcissistic, egotistical, and paranoid to the nth degree- not to mention full of internal conflict as a race. They’re perhaps THE least peaceful race among the player races – at least the charr and norn don’t think the fella next to them is going to steal all of their stuff in the middle of the night causing them to create complex ciphers for simple notes. Why do you think the asura mostly have labs out in the middle of nowhere? For safety reasons? PFHA! Only the most noble of asura (and they are indeed few) do that – most are in the middle of nowhere because there’s then less risk of people stealing their research, or because their research is so harmful that the Arcane Council (who in itself is plotting world domination – yeah, the asuran government is outright Pinky and the Brain) forces their labs to be in the middle of nowhere.
Very peaceful, indeed.
Aye, I agree! The Asura are sooo peaceful that they once tried to genocide the Skritt.
Genocide
That part was redacted by the writers. They agreed it was too extreme.
Except that there’s still a good number of asura who use skritt as lab rats and see them as fodder to exterminate.
So no, not really.
It’s just that it’s not “the norm” to hate on skritt so much.
You say that Primordius can’t corrupt, but just wondering, what are those godforged enemies we fight in CoF? They do look as if they are corrupted in a similar way as some of those Sons of Svanir.
Isn’t Primordius the “god” of the flame legion, and this making godforged similar to corrupted?
The Godforged are made that way via self-mutilating rituals. Their (current) god is Gaheron Baelfire – their Imperator – not Primordus. They did once worship destroyers (not Primordus) during Eye of the North, but quickly gave that up when the destroyers tried to kill them – and according to Anet “they learned their lesson” which is why they’re trying to make a god (and failed).
And it’s not “can’t” but “doesn’t” – there’s a HUGE difference.
To avoid going off topic too much, I found 2 or three groups of 2 flame legion enemies in the mines of Moledavia. I think they are related to the story. Also, although a bit ‘meta-game’ there was a large piece of “broken” map near the most western entrance to Moledavia. I don’t know if it was there before, but it might indicate that maybe in a future update something will change or be added there?
Take note that back then Primordus was still asleep, and his minions were being controlled by the Great Destroyer, a champion of the said dragon. We don’t really know how Primordus thinks about anything, though he does seem to be hostile towards anything with a society and seems to only corrupt beasts (or to create mockeries of beasts, but I’m convinced that they are corrupted underground beasts.).
Except that harpies aren’t underground creatures and we’ve been explicitly told that Primordus has not yet been seen corrupting living creatures – only creating mockeries. The skritt storyline is the first possible corrupted living creature – though evidence points to it not being so.
Furthermore, we were told that the Great Destroyer’s job was to wipe out all life to herald Primordus’ coming. An Elder Dragon who’d corrupt living beings wouldn’t want to wipe them all out, but corrupt them too. Plus, we’ve never once seen living beings corrupted – instead we’ve seen (in Eye of the North and Edge of Destiny), destroyers forming from pools of lava.
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