Guild Wars 2

infantrydiv.1620:

Saying the meta before June 23rd was balanced is pretty laughable. Yeah, I guess if you play Ele/Engi for the past year and a half it was “balanced”.

It was far more balanced than what we have now. If they just tweaked the classes that needed help and toned down a bit what was too strong, it would be much better than completely revamping the whole system and breaking the game. They promised to do balance patches frequently and yet they still can’t fix things that are ridiculously broken. Don’t forget ANet is going to be esports, too and with this change it’s further from happening. GW2 was never a popular game to watch due to the fact it’s very hard to understand what’s happening in the game for people who are not that experienced. This change made it close to impossible it will ever happen.

Some people have fun with how everyone blows up and that’s okay I guess, but that doesn’t mean this meta is more balanced. Stealth burst dominates even more and certain specs are way too easy to play now. It’s not like you need more skill to play now, you don’t. I suppose removing the skill factor from game is okay for some people, but imo it’s not step in the right direction.

There isn’t more diversity, there is actually less. People are trying new builds just because they are sort of forced too, the meta hasn’t completely settled down, but those builds would be viable on some level in the previous meta, too. Nothing really changed in the high tier pvp, only some specs were replaced, but people go down much faster and there is less counterplay against certain stuff. Before the patch there weren’t many builds that would allow completely no counterplay, now there is quite a lot.

Because anyone can play ranked. Even the person who bought the game 5 minutes ago.

I don’t really care if we get sword as a conjure weapon, warhorn is still going to be useless since we need another melee option, not another conjure no one will bother to use.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Have you ever thought about that a lot of people who want Diamond skin to be reworked actually do not think that trait is op, but have different reasons for it? Have you also thought about the fact that it could be buffed, so it can compete with Stone heart and is not completely useless against non-condi builds, but will alow counterplay for builds that are based on condi. Currently even if you play well on such builds, there’s nothing you can do because Diamond skin is simply badly designed. It’s clear you’ve never faced a DS ele on necro for example, then you would have known that even getting through the 2K hp is not something easy with how much sustain such ele has.

I mostly play ele, but I simply don’t want traits with no counterplay in game.

Yeah you should play necro before talking about one, on a cele signet necro…a life blast will crit for up to 3k dmg and that’s only lifeblast, with dagger you can stack up to 20 mights in few secs and there still passive/active condi transfer and can still drop ghost armor for even more boon strip ( corrupt boon)…

Pls do tell me how I can struggle against cele ele on a cele necro…..

That’s cele necro, not condition necro and has nothing to do with the fact rabid and carrion necro is countered by DS.

You specified necro and not a carrion or rabid necro so stick to your words for once! You talked like the whole class get countered by DS and this is something anybody sensible enough knows to be BS.

You play a cele necro to minimize the number of counters, you play a hybrid build!

You play a pure condi build and you drop the damage/sustain of cele for even more condi pressure, your build is not flexible anymore…you will, must be hard countered somehow…it’s called logic!

Maybe read the post again, I was talking about condition builds, you’re just focusing on words that suits your argument. I’m done replying to you since you only want to argue. It was clear what I meant.

Apart from that cele necro and condi necro are two completely different builds, it’s like telling someone who wants to play mediguard, but has issues with survability to play bunker. Seriously, stop with these ridiculous arguments. Have a nice day, sir.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Have you ever thought about that a lot of people who want Diamond skin to be reworked actually do not think that trait is op, but have different reasons for it? Have you also thought about the fact that it could be buffed, so it can compete with Stone heart and is not completely useless against non-condi builds, but will alow counterplay for builds that are based on condi. Currently even if you play well on such builds, there’s nothing you can do because Diamond skin is simply badly designed. It’s clear you’ve never faced a DS ele on necro for example, then you would have known that even getting through the 2K hp is not something easy with how much sustain such ele has.

I mostly play ele, but I simply don’t want traits with no counterplay in game.

Yeah you should play necro before talking about one, on a cele signet necro…a life blast will crit for up to 3k dmg and that’s only lifeblast, with dagger you can stack up to 20 mights in few secs and there still passive/active condi transfer and can still drop ghost armor for even more boon strip ( corrupt boon)…

Pls do tell me how I can struggle against cele ele on a cele necro…..

That’s cele necro, not condition necro and has nothing to do with the fact rabid and carrion necro is countered by DS.

Yeah, hell no. You would give a tool to eles that would make them immortal, it doesn’t matter if it’s only in one attunement, it would be completely broken. Swap to earth and activate godmode huh? Ele doesn’t even need any buff like that and if you think they would ever just think about making such a trait, you’re crazy.

Have you ever thought about that a lot of people who want Diamond skin to be reworked actually do not think that trait is op, but have different reasons for it? Have you also thought about the fact that it could be buffed, so it can compete with Stone heart and is not completely useless against non-condi builds, but will alow counterplay for builds that are based on condi. Currently even if you play well on such builds, there’s nothing you can do because Diamond skin is simply badly designed. It’s clear you’ve never faced a DS ele on necro for example, then you would have known that even getting through the 2K hp is not something easy with how much sustain such ele has.

I mostly play ele, but I simply don’t want traits with no counterplay in game.

It’s not true that you can only share weapon auras anymore. You can get the fire aura from fire attunement on your teammates, but the radius is too small, so you probably were too far away.

Mahuyo.3079:

Laraley.7695:

Mahuyo.3079:

Laraley.7695:

First of all, Elemental Surge is terrible. I would take Evasive Arcana over it, then you have two condi removals. I wouldn’t take Final Shielding since the trait is just bad, Elemental Contigiency would be better.

It’s not true your only reflect is Swirling winds, that is deflect. Your reflect is Magnetic wave.

I disagree that conditions on ele are bad, a lot of damage from celestial eles comes from burning. However, mixing zerker with conditions is not a good idea. I would replace the rabid trinkets by zerker or eventually valkyrie. Also, get rid of the runes. Strentgh, Pack of Scholar are better choice. Obviously if you take battle/air, then take Strentgh runes, but energy/air or energy/doom is okay, too.

For heal you should get Signet of restoration, everything else is a worse choice. Change one of your utilities for Lightning Flash and then probably get Arcane Blast/Wave and Arcane Shield. I really don’t like the cantrip builds, but you can try it out.

Change Power overwhelming for One with fire. Ferocious winds for One with air, the superspeed is really good on fresh air. Tempest defense can be something to consider, too. It’s really good when fighting thieves for example. Renewing stamina can be switched for Arcane Precision, it’s really good with scepter.

There aren’t really rotations set in stone, but something like this:

Laraley.7695:

Burst for s/f: Lets be honest here and say that most damage comes from Phoenix and Air skills. You can chain Phoenix with LF to make sure it will land, it will take some practice, but if you follow up with Air Attunement and Lightning Strike and eventually Arcane Blast, you will be able to dish out a lot of damage if not killing your target. Dragon’s tooth is good for cleaving downed bodies, but you will barely land it. You can chain it with Gale and manage to do so, though. Fire wall is good for downed bodies and might stacking. It goes Dragon’s tooth > Fire wall > Phoenix > Magnetic Wave and eventually dodge in earth if you have Evasive Arcana, it’s not that important to do so, though. Might is good, but you shouldn’t be focusing on that. Fire shield is not that great but can be useful sometimes. Your Water attunement is mainly for the heal from Trident, Daze on Comet and Freezing Gust for the short chill to try landing something. In air it’s pretty simple, you need to be able to hit your Air Attunement and Lightning Strike, Blinding flash and Swirling winds are utility skills. In Earth you have most survability, but Magnetic wave can be used for damage to proc Fresh air, same goes for Rock barrier and the followed up skill.

Elemental Surge is not bad with his trait combo, Blinding Ashes. Arcana cause burning causes blinding

I’m sorry, but compare Evasive Arcana and Elemental Surge. Look at the cooldowns of Arcane skills and then tell me if it’s worth it to get 5 sec of burning, I would say no.

If he goes the condi route it is better than Evasive, do you see the burn duration?

But he’s not, he’s fresh air with zerker gear and some random rabid pieces.

Tao.1234:

Get yourself few pieces of Sinister gear/trinkets.

Diamond Skin is useless.

Should be buffed and HP threshold should be ~80% HP.

I’m seriously confused. This is pvp forum, you cannot use Sinister in pvp, why do people keep giving this useless advice?

Outsider.6051:

I’d go against people here saying elemental surge is bad. It may not be the best tho. For your build to focus on arcane and ES, you’re looking for high burning stacks in a short amount of time to insta down the opponent. I’d change a few things tho. You might want to change elemental contingency with final shielding, i don’t think you want to be taking a lot of hits, that way you can drop it in your skill bar and swap it with lightning flash. Start in fire, hit all arcane skills and stack up the burning then stun with air focus. Might be a one-trick pony build. Also prob better mileage with dagger mh. You can use arcane power, then fire 3 + teleport on their face than use all arcane skills and cast fire 2 for maximum burns.

If you want burning stacks, then you probably don’t want to play zerker, do you? I don’t understand mixing these two when there is already such build – cele ele. You’re better of going full zerker than throwing in random rabid trinkets.

Also, I would go against people saying to take Final shielding. It’s just so bad, come on. It’s on freaking 75 sec cd, procs at 25% hp and you might as well lose on the stunbreak if you dont take Arcane Shield on your utility bar.

Mahuyo.3079:

Laraley.7695:

First of all, Elemental Surge is terrible. I would take Evasive Arcana over it, then you have two condi removals. I wouldn’t take Final Shielding since the trait is just bad, Elemental Contigiency would be better.

It’s not true your only reflect is Swirling winds, that is deflect. Your reflect is Magnetic wave.

I disagree that conditions on ele are bad, a lot of damage from celestial eles comes from burning. However, mixing zerker with conditions is not a good idea. I would replace the rabid trinkets by zerker or eventually valkyrie. Also, get rid of the runes. Strentgh, Pack of Scholar are better choice. Obviously if you take battle/air, then take Strentgh runes, but energy/air or energy/doom is okay, too.

For heal you should get Signet of restoration, everything else is a worse choice. Change one of your utilities for Lightning Flash and then probably get Arcane Blast/Wave and Arcane Shield. I really don’t like the cantrip builds, but you can try it out.

Change Power overwhelming for One with fire. Ferocious winds for One with air, the superspeed is really good on fresh air. Tempest defense can be something to consider, too. It’s really good when fighting thieves for example. Renewing stamina can be switched for Arcane Precision, it’s really good with scepter.

There aren’t really rotations set in stone, but something like this:

Laraley.7695:

Burst for s/f: Lets be honest here and say that most damage comes from Phoenix and Air skills. You can chain Phoenix with LF to make sure it will land, it will take some practice, but if you follow up with Air Attunement and Lightning Strike and eventually Arcane Blast, you will be able to dish out a lot of damage if not killing your target. Dragon’s tooth is good for cleaving downed bodies, but you will barely land it. You can chain it with Gale and manage to do so, though. Fire wall is good for downed bodies and might stacking. It goes Dragon’s tooth > Fire wall > Phoenix > Magnetic Wave and eventually dodge in earth if you have Evasive Arcana, it’s not that important to do so, though. Might is good, but you shouldn’t be focusing on that. Fire shield is not that great but can be useful sometimes. Your Water attunement is mainly for the heal from Trident, Daze on Comet and Freezing Gust for the short chill to try landing something. In air it’s pretty simple, you need to be able to hit your Air Attunement and Lightning Strike, Blinding flash and Swirling winds are utility skills. In Earth you have most survability, but Magnetic wave can be used for damage to proc Fresh air, same goes for Rock barrier and the followed up skill.

Elemental Surge is not bad with his trait combo, Blinding Ashes. Arcana cause burning causes blinding

I’m sorry, but compare Evasive Arcana and Elemental Surge. Look at the cooldowns of Arcane skills and then tell me if it’s worth it to get 5 sec of burning, I would say no.

Cynz.9437:

Shatters can be predicted same way steal can be predicted. It is not easy but possible, especially if you know playstyle of the person you are facing. Given mesmers have more stealth atm but it is kind of limited if they are more offense oriented (which i am refering to atm).

I don’t think comparing shatters and steal is really correct. While shatters are instant skills they are based on illusions and can be avoided, there is a tell. The illusions have to run up to you to do their effect, it’s not by any means the same as steal. Of course with IP baseline, you will get hit by one shatter with no tell, but still.

First of all, Elemental Surge is terrible. I would take Evasive Arcana over it, then you have two condi removals. I wouldn’t take Final Shielding since the trait is just bad, Elemental Contigiency would be better.

It’s not true your only reflect is Swirling winds, that is deflect. Your reflect is Magnetic wave.

I disagree that conditions on ele are bad, a lot of damage from celestial eles comes from burning. However, mixing zerker with conditions is not a good idea. I would replace the rabid trinkets by zerker or eventually valkyrie. Also, get rid of the runes. Strentgh, Pack of Scholar are better choice. Obviously if you take battle/air, then take Strentgh runes, but energy/air or energy/doom is okay, too.

For heal you should get Signet of restoration, everything else is a worse choice. Change one of your utilities for Lightning Flash and then probably get Arcane Blast/Wave and Arcane Shield. I really don’t like the cantrip builds, but you can try it out.

Change Power overwhelming for One with fire. Ferocious winds for One with air, the superspeed is really good on fresh air. Tempest defense can be something to consider, too. It’s really good when fighting thieves for example. Renewing stamina can be switched for Arcane Precision, it’s really good with scepter.

There aren’t really rotations set in stone, but something like this:

Laraley.7695:

Burst for s/f: Lets be honest here and say that most damage comes from Phoenix and Air skills. You can chain Phoenix with LF to make sure it will land, it will take some practice, but if you follow up with Air Attunement and Lightning Strike and eventually Arcane Blast, you will be able to dish out a lot of damage if not killing your target. Dragon’s tooth is good for cleaving downed bodies, but you will barely land it. You can chain it with Gale and manage to do so, though. Fire wall is good for downed bodies and might stacking. It goes Dragon’s tooth > Fire wall > Phoenix > Magnetic Wave and eventually dodge in earth if you have Evasive Arcana, it’s not that important to do so, though. Might is good, but you shouldn’t be focusing on that. Fire shield is not that great but can be useful sometimes. Your Water attunement is mainly for the heal from Trident, Daze on Comet and Freezing Gust for the short chill to try landing something. In air it’s pretty simple, you need to be able to hit your Air Attunement and Lightning Strike, Blinding flash and Swirling winds are utility skills. In Earth you have most survability, but Magnetic wave can be used for damage to proc Fresh air, same goes for Rock barrier and the followed up skill.

Sagat.3285:

Laraley.7695:

Sagat.3285:

CrassBippy.4619:

haha i’ve read it all now. Condition users being able to stack 2 defensive stats and STILL do a ton of cond damage has been broken ever since cond started getting buffs. So no __it? someone FINALLY counters your build? Conditions have been easy mode in pvp and wvw roaming forever. God forbid your ultra tank dmg condition build has to finally switch some things up

Rabid won’t break Diamond Skin and what ton of condi damage? You must be in hotjoin I’m not even sure if that has “a condition meta”.

No, he’s from wvw that’s why the ‘’ton of condi damage’’ and ‘’use sinister and rampager’’.

WvW has no place here the only viable condi spec vs players that I have heard using rampager or sinister is engi it’s not better than rabid or cele soooo.

Well, obviously since you can’t even have sinister in pvp and rampager is not a great choice anyway. Thing is the state of condition necro is completely different in wvw due to food buffs and perplexity runes. I’m just saying that he’s comparing different things.

Sagat.3285:

CrassBippy.4619:

haha i’ve read it all now. Condition users being able to stack 2 defensive stats and STILL do a ton of cond damage has been broken ever since cond started getting buffs. So no __it? someone FINALLY counters your build? Conditions have been easy mode in pvp and wvw roaming forever. God forbid your ultra tank dmg condition build has to finally switch some things up

Rabid won’t break Diamond Skin and what ton of condi damage? You must be in hotjoin I’m not even sure if that has “a condition meta”.

No, he’s from wvw that’s why the ‘’ton of condi damage’’ and ‘’use sinister and rampager’’.

Shiro is famous for his dual katanas, s/s makes the most sense.

Supreme.3164:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

The devs cannot nerf the skill level of your opponents..no matter how much you cry on the forums…

Yep, let’s be in denial and pretend mesmer and ele are okay.

Like nerfing ele and mesmer would change anything…nerf them today..tomorrow you’ll be back with other nerf requests on some other profession :what beats me it’s OP, it’s not because I face better players

I’m sorry but if you cannot recognize the difference between something being too strong and facing better players, it’s only your fault. If people who actually play the specs say it’s op, I think there’s something wrong and it’s not someone being more skilled than his opponent.

MailMail.6534:

Laraley.7695:

MailMail.6534:

I +1ed the post, but I’m not sure if I entirely agree.

Being that I run a condi build [using Rabid stats], it sucks that this one build completely counters me, but a Diamond Skin ele has to make a concession to go into earth for such a trait. If I see an ele on the other team, I automatically let my team know that I can’t 1v1 diamond skin ele. I make adjustments accordingly and never have an issue that my team can’t surmount in due time.

That’s the way it should be I think.

eta- Diamond skin only counters rabid & settler’s amulet.

Not completely true, you will have a better time on Carrion, but it’s still be very difficult to get through the 10% hp due to so much sustain.

Let’s be honest, Diamond Skin rewards you for absolutely nothing, which is not healthy for the game. There should be some skill involved and also counterplay, I think that it’s been enough of things that has no counterplay.

First off, you’re responding as though this game is based on 1v1s. Condi builds are generally superior in 1v1s with less risk but less reward in terms of speed. If you can’t get past 10% on Carrion, then it’s a l2p issue.

Rewards you for nothing? This is untrue. The ele has to actively sustain himself in order to remain above the 90% threshold, which based on my experience as an enemy of such, is VERY hard in a team fight. lol In fact, most eles I know will tell you how useless this trait is for a majority of builds for precisely this fact.

Of course this game is not based on 1v1’s, it’s also not based on conquest, yet it’s balanced around it while introducing new game modes that are completely different. Still that doesn’t matter.

Go and try how easy time you will be having in a 1v1 against a diamond skill ele that knows that he’s doing. Staff and scepter direct damage is pretty weak and you won’t be hitting much on Life blast either.

Condition necro actually have less survability than zerker mesmers for example, so don’t talk about less risk.

Oh come on, don’t act like it’s hard to attune to water and spam some skills. If you cannot stay above 90% hp against a condition build, then it’s l2p issue, same thing. I never said it’s great trait, I stated it’s badly designed and should be reworked. It can be a viable option, while having a counterplay. I seriously do not understand why anyone would be against that.

And to the troll post about vitality and toughness amulets – they won’t prevent you from doing power nor condition damage to their wearer, completely different thing.

But as I can see it’s pretty much useless to to lead any discussion here, since people will just defend broken traits as Diamon trait is. No wonder the game is at this state.

draxynnic.3719:

To be honest, I’m a little disappointed that that’s all. I was expecting that the offhand axe at least would come with, well, a mainhand axe, and hammer apparently being the only ranged option available seems questionable to me, particularly since a large part of the hammer’s damage potential is reliant on being at long range.

I understand your point but Shiro is just so well-known for his blades that giving him anything else but s/s just wouldn’t make any sense.

Well, there is a chance the elite spec will have some synergy with Shiro since none of the current legends do. Otherwise I guess people will just need to use Shiro unless they add more diversity with some choice of skills for each legend.

Zaklex.6308:

700 Spirit Shards, that’s nothing, let me know when you’re around 4k+, then we can talk.

Yep, asking for what to do with 700 spirit shards when he has no use for them is definitely the reason to tell him to wait when he has 4K of more of these useless things.

serenke.4806:

Laraley.7695:

Supreme.3164:

The devs cannot nerf the skill level of your opponents..no matter how much you cry on the forums…

Yep, let’s be in denial and pretend mesmer and ele are okay.

They are. It’s not the class, it’s the players that outplay you.
Sure, mesmer is somewhat more forgiving now and everybody is jumping on the bandwagon but just because power mesmers have a fighting chance vs. thief now, don’t take out the pitchforks and torches. (The situation is similar to when rangers got their buff and suddenly everybody was playing longbow ranger. It will calm down just like the ranger hype did.)
Eles have some insane sustain but the main problem there seems to be burning, not exactly the class itself.

Yep, that’s why even the top players who main the mentioned classes admit they’re broken, too.

MailMail.6534:

I +1ed the post, but I’m not sure if I entirely agree.

Being that I run a condi build [using Rabid stats], it sucks that this one build completely counters me, but a Diamond Skin ele has to make a concession to go into earth for such a trait. If I see an ele on the other team, I automatically let my team know that I can’t 1v1 diamond skin ele. I make adjustments accordingly and never have an issue that my team can’t surmount in due time.

That’s the way it should be I think.

eta- Diamond skin only counters rabid & settler’s amulet.

Not completely true, you will have a better time on Carrion, but it’s still be very difficult to get through the 10% hp due to so much sustain.

Let’s be honest, Diamond Skin rewards you for absolutely nothing, which is not healthy for the game. There should be some skill involved and also counterplay, I think that it’s been enough of things that has no counterplay.

Supreme.3164:

The devs cannot nerf the skill level of your opponents..no matter how much you cry on the forums…

Yep, let’s be in denial and pretend mesmer and ele are okay.

Gabriell.4856:

Laraley.7695:

Gabriell.4856:

Ryld.1340:

Gabriell.4856:

Why are you here wasting time QQing instead of making a mesmer to learn the class and ultimately learn how to counter it?

Mesmers have so many ways to provide deception through clones, stealth, battlefield cluttering, that you just can’t see everything happening clearly.

In terms of keeping track of the mesmer, I usually don’t have a problem unless they chain MI with another stealth. Other than that, I play against them long enough to know which one is the real one. Experience helps and it seems like new players are quick to jump on the QQ bangwagon.

I can assure you that people do not complain about mesmer because they can’t recognize which one is the real one. That might be a part of the complains, but mostly people actually adress the issues specifically.

Like the guy a few posts above?

“Mesmers? I have no kittening idea because i have no idea what’s going on thanks to the very nature of the class. This is how the average fight with a mesmer goes for me:
A wild mesmer appears. “Stuff” happens. I’m dead in 2 seconds.”

Yeah, one guy in the whole thread. Read the mesmer complains again and actually realize many people have some valid points.

Gabriell.4856:

Ryld.1340:

Gabriell.4856:

Why are you here wasting time QQing instead of making a mesmer to learn the class and ultimately learn how to counter it?

Mesmers have so many ways to provide deception through clones, stealth, battlefield cluttering, that you just can’t see everything happening clearly.

In terms of keeping track of the mesmer, I usually don’t have a problem unless they chain MI with another stealth. Other than that, I play against them long enough to know which one is the real one. Experience helps and it seems like new players are quick to jump on the QQ bangwagon.

I can assure you that people do not complain about mesmer because they can’t recognize which one is the real one. That might be a part of the complains, but mostly people actually adress the issues specifically.

Tyreal.5230:

Laraley.7695:

Tyreal.5230:

Laraley.7695:

Tyreal.5230:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

diamond skin is fine, balanced and working as intended.
counter play is control skills plus direct burst damage.

no, i dun play an elementalist.

Yeah…

The problem is that a flat condi build doesn’t have the direct burst damage to overcome Diamond Skin. Therefor the condition application and damage of the condi build never comes into effect. The ele can easily outheal any direct damage the condi user might apply.

Not sure how you going full condi and having absolutely no power in your build is an Eles issue, but okay. Hybrid builds are used for a reason.

The issue is the fact ele has a trait that can counter such builds. You will have a hard time dealing with a diamond skin ele if you play both Carrion or Rabid necro. Eles have so much sustain that any damage you do will be instantly healed anyway and you just don’t have enough pressure to be able to get through the 10% hp without being killed by the ele first.

Only issue is you running a build that is easily countered. Condi builds not having enough power to get past 10% is just not true. I’ve seen it happen all the time, and the moment it does the ele is as good as dead. If you haven’t altered your build to deal with it you have no right to be complaining about it honestly. I’m not saying that DS is not a weird trait but honestly… stop complaining and make an adjustment to your build. If your consistently being countered when running a certain build, the issue is you and your build. That’s why theory crafting is a thing.

One. Trait. Should. Not. Completely. Counter. Certain. Builds.

Is that clear? Or still not? I never said it’s impossible, I said you will have a hard time doing so, which is true, go test it. I actually main ele, I don’t play necromancer much, but I actually did go and test it to see how carrion/rabid necro will deal with it and it’s not really easy at all. A build shouldn’t be forced to make adjustements just because of one trait.

You’re not being countered by just ‘One’ trait. A build that goes into all defensive/survival lines taking all survival oriented traits shouldn’t be tanky?
Earth, water and arcana?

yeah… you’re being countered by one trait alone, his build definitely isn’t completely and utterly centered on survivability at all.

You tested? What’d you do? Make a necro then spam all your skills with X build the moment you saw a D/D ele? That’s not testing, cuz I’m pretty sure that’s more than likely what you did. Sorry, but ‘maining’ a class doesn’t make you good nor particularly knowledgeable either. Just means you play it more than others. And if your attitude is always going to be I shouldn’t have to make adjustments to my build there is no hope for you what so ever. I’m done here. This is ridiculous.

What did I do? I went on ele and used a Diamon Skin build, then have a friend who is experienced on necro to try and bring my down under 90% hp. It’s funny you talk about attitude here while you assume things like you did in your post.

If a build is centered around condition application and one single trait prevents that, then yes it is being countered by one trait. There is a difference between a tanky build and a build that completely shuts down some type of specs and that just shouldn’t happen for the sake of balance.

No, no one should be forced to make changes to their build just because of one trait. Stop saying ’’you’’ and ‘’your build’’ all the time.

Tyreal.5230:

Laraley.7695:

Tyreal.5230:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

diamond skin is fine, balanced and working as intended.
counter play is control skills plus direct burst damage.

no, i dun play an elementalist.

Yeah…

The problem is that a flat condi build doesn’t have the direct burst damage to overcome Diamond Skin. Therefor the condition application and damage of the condi build never comes into effect. The ele can easily outheal any direct damage the condi user might apply.

Not sure how you going full condi and having absolutely no power in your build is an Eles issue, but okay. Hybrid builds are used for a reason.

The issue is the fact ele has a trait that can counter such builds. You will have a hard time dealing with a diamond skin ele if you play both Carrion or Rabid necro. Eles have so much sustain that any damage you do will be instantly healed anyway and you just don’t have enough pressure to be able to get through the 10% hp without being killed by the ele first.

Only issue is you running a build that is easily countered. Condi builds not having enough power to get past 10% is just not true. I’ve seen it happen all the time, and the moment it does the ele is as good as dead. If you haven’t altered your build to deal with it you have no right to be complaining about it honestly. I’m not saying that DS is not a weird trait but honestly… stop complaining and make an adjustment to your build. If your consistently being countered when running a certain build, the issue is you and your build. That’s why theory crafting is a thing.

One. Trait. Should. Not. Completely. Counter. Certain. Builds.

Is that clear? Or still not? I never said it’s impossible, I said you will have a hard time doing so, which is true, go test it. I actually main ele, I don’t play necromancer much, but I actually did go and test it to see how carrion/rabid necro will deal with it and it’s not really easy at all. A build shouldn’t be forced to make adjustements just because of one trait.

Tyreal.5230:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

diamond skin is fine, balanced and working as intended.
counter play is control skills plus direct burst damage.

no, i dun play an elementalist.

Yeah…

The problem is that a flat condi build doesn’t have the direct burst damage to overcome Diamond Skin. Therefor the condition application and damage of the condi build never comes into effect. The ele can easily outheal any direct damage the condi user might apply.

Not sure how you going full condi and having absolutely no power in your build is an Eles issue, but okay. Hybrid builds are used for a reason.

The issue is the fact ele has a trait that can counter such builds. You will have a hard time dealing with a diamond skin ele if you play both Carrion or Rabid necro. Eles have so much sustain that any damage you do will be instantly healed anyway and you just don’t have enough pressure to be able to get through the 10% hp without being killed by the ele first.

stof.9341:

So, you admit that the Elem #2 skill isn’t the only one that will cause you to break a res.

I think his point is that as a thief you can prevent stomp by porting without interrupting the ress, while on ele you will always interrupt it.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Laraley.7695:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

diamond skin is fine, balanced and working as intended.
counter play is control skills plus direct burst damage.

no, i dun play an elementalist.

I always see you commenting how some broken thing is totally fine.

Come on, even most elementalists admit that Diamon skin is just a horrible design and want it to get reworked.

because diamond skin is not broken.
if it is not broken, do not fix it.

it is working as intended.

you want to complain about useless traits?
see how useful thick skin is.

Did I say it’s useless? No, I said it’s badly designed. It completely counters several builds and no trait in game should do that. There shouldn’t be things that have no counterplay in game. I don’t care if it’s a team game, sometimes you need to 1v1, too. It can be reworked that it still stays a decent trait, but with added counterplay, I’m not sure why anyone would be against that.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

diamond skin is fine, balanced and working as intended.
counter play is control skills plus direct burst damage.

no, i dun play an elementalist.

I always see you commenting how some broken thing is totally fine.

Come on, even most elementalists admit that Diamon skin is just a horrible design and want it to get reworked.

Fuzzion.2504:

Laraley.7695:

Imo, in soloq and when not facing good organized teams you can get away with playing a lot of things. However, I believe that Arcana and Water will still remain mandatory in high level pvp.

Yeah given how broken some the classes are and how strong condi became, arc and water seem relevant still.

But earth.

Earth doesnt seem mandatory if u r going for a mixed build.

No, I actually thing Fire/Water/Arcana is better due to how much damage you can get from Fire. I think it’s most likely this will get nerfed, though.

Imo, in soloq and when not facing good organized teams you can get away with playing a lot of things. However, I believe that Arcana and Water will still remain mandatory in high level pvp.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Fair enough. I guess my problem was trying to experiment before I fully understood the class.

I don’t think that experimenting is a problem at all, though. I have many times in past, but if things don’t work out, I guess it’s good to admit not everything is viable. I honestly don’t know if there are some viable chill specs, I’ve never really tried it, but maybe try the well established specs first to figure out what’s the biggest issue of your spec?

I also think that if we had something like Reaper gets – chill does damage, it would be much more viable. The thing is that if you’re not in an organized group, chill won’t do much and if you are, then they will probably want something like d/d.

SlayerSixx.5763:

First off, I picked up the glyph of elemental power for the access to chill (along with the weakness/cripple), which is also the reason why I picked up the svanir runes. I got CES for all of the added defensive attributes (along with the invuln). All the chill, coupled with the super speed trait made for some really easy kiting and if kitten got hairy, I’d have a lot of defenses to fall back on. Problem is that I’m trying to go for more control over DPS and I refuse to try lockdown mesmer because of mesmers generally cheesy state at the moment.

Well, in that case I don’t think you can really be able to actually dish out any good dps, since you are willingly giving it up for something that doesn’t really work. Chill can seem fun and cool, but it can be cleansed instantly and you just can’t cover it up. It’s also only soft cc, which won’t accomplish much on many classes. It’s totally useless against a thief, fairly strong against an ele, but other classes will deal with it quite well, too. I suppose you can play this for fun, but there’s not much people can advise you to reach some high level of damage comparable to classic fresh air and I would say mesmers can either kill you faster or outsustain you.

chris.6583:

i was checking the vid of woodenpotatoes about elite specs
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZ2CN-Pn4w)
and at min 10:13 he says something about traits that allow you to change skills and add new effects, so…. if you see the first 12 skill at the image:
http://i.imgur.com/hMuuZRe.png
you can see some skills in the same attunement (sword skills supposedly), but there is 1 skill of dagger and 2 other “chain” skills, so i think tempest will allow you to change your main hand dagger skill # 1 to a very short melee range chain skill (melementalist)

also remember what devs said at Specializations AMA Livestream Notes (check dulfy page for more info: http://dulfy.net/2015/04/24/gw2-specializations-ama-livestream-notes/), “The windborn dagger and scepter one with endurance weren’t super exciting so we are going to give you something more exciting”

that means tempest will affect scepter and dagger skills to have new effects therefore the new weapon is going to be an off-hand that will complement those weapons, the point is that tempest will change or add new effects to all skills (or at least for dagger and scepter) so dont worry if the new weapon is a warhorn or a dual focus, probably you dont have to use it to benefit from tempest

Except every spec will get a new weapon, not reworked current weapon, that was stated. Also, I think it’s most likely that the skills were just placeholders.

Part II
If you’re using s/d, it’s very similar, but you have some good tools to help you land your burst, which still consists of Phoenix and Air skills. One of them is to RTL, Updraft > Fire > Dragon’s tooth (this is best to cast if you’re certain your target doesn’t have stunbreak, but in many casesit won’t hit and I would say sometimes it’s better to follow up with Phoenix) > Walking up to your target and Putting down Ring of Fire > Phoenix > At this point he should have burning on him so use Fire Grab > Air > Lightning strike > (Arcane Blast). It depends on how fast you are with chaining your skills, but usually after Phoenix your target should recover from the Updraft and most likely he will dodge, it’s what people do from habbit, so wait it out before you try hitting Fire Grab. You can also just chain Dragon’s tooth and Fire Grab. There is an option to chain Earthquake and Lightning Flash and then follow up with fire attunement as described above.There are really a lot of options, but landing your fire skills is important and what you cast is situational, watch your target, their stubreaks, when they get up…etc. You do not have any invulnerability on this build so it could be an option to take Mistform along with Arcane Shield and Lightning Flash.

If you’re using D/F: You’re most damage will be again Air Attunement and Dragon’s Breath and Burning Speed. You can chain up Burning Speed and Lightning Flash > Air > Lightning Strike > (Arcane Blast). On this build you have one advantage and that’s the fact your AA is not as bad as on Scepter, Lightning whip is really good for putting out pressure, you can use it each time you have other stuff on cooldown or you need some quick damage. Again, you can follow up gale with burning speed and Dragon’s breath.

I’m certain I forgot something, but I hope this helps if your goal is to play some good fresh air build. If you want to use what you’re using, I don’t think you can get much help, because honestly a lot of the issues lie in your build. The combos can be used on any build, but you will lack damage with what you have currently equiped. Good luck!

Part I
You still didn’t say what weapons you use, but I’m going to assume it’s s/f. First of all, I would get rid of Svanir runes and the chilling sigils. It might seem good, but you have very little conditions to cover it and you lose dps.

For sigils you usually want Air and Energy/Battle/Doom/eventually Fire. If you take battle, then Strength runes are the best choice or you can also pick up Pack runes. All of this will give you some tools to increase your dps. This goes hand in hand with the trait lines you pick, though.

Generally speaking, I would say Earth is probably the worst choice you could take. There are several variations of the build you can use. I personally like Fire/Air/Arcana the best, but you can also go Fire/Air/Water or Air/Water/Arcana. Earth doesn’t really give you that much honestly. Having Stone heart on fresh air build won’t accomplish much since you will be vulnerable outside earth anyway and you won’t be able to do any pressure while in earth.

For fire you usually want: Burning Fire/Burning Precision (it’s a bit weaker now, though), One with Fire and Blinding ashes. You should take Strength runes if going into fire.

Air: One with Air, Tempest Defense (very good for fresh air build) and Fresh air

Water: Soothing Ice (Piercing shards are just bad since you won’t be doing any damage in water without having Ice bow for example, but I wouldn’t recommend that for pvp.), Aquamancer’s training and Cleansing Water. Honestly, Powerful aura makes no sense at all, unless you’re d/f, but I still don’t think it’s the best choice.

And for Arcana: Arcane Precision/Renewing Stamina, Elemental Contigiency and Evasive Arcana. I find Final Shielding just plain weak, but I suppose it could be a viable option (?), I wouldn’t take it over EC.

Your choice of utilities is quite weak, too. Arcane shield is good, but why on earth are you using Conjure Earth shield? It’s really really not a good idea since you can’t put out any pressure while using this and the skills are rather weak. Glyph of elemental power is just bad, too. What you would want to take is usually: Arcane Shield, Lightning Flash, Arcane Blast/Signet of Air/Cleansing Fire…For heal I would get Signet of Restoration.

Burst for s/f: Lets be honest here and say that most damage comes from Phoenix and Air skills. You can chain Phoenix with LF to make sure it will land, it will take some practice, but if you follow up with Air Attunement and Lightning Strike and eventually Arcane Blast, you will be able to dish out a lot of damage if not killing your target. Dragon’s tooth is good for cleaving downed bodies, but you will barely land it. You can chain it with Gale and manage to do so, though. Fire wall is good for downed bodies and might stacking. It goes Dragon’s tooth > Fire wall > Phoenix > Magnetic Wave and eventually dodge in earth if you have Evasive Arcana, it’s not that important to do so, though. Might is good, but you shouldn’t be focusing on that. Fire shield is not that great but can be useful sometimes. Your Water attunement is mainly for the heal from Trident, Daze on Comet and Freezing Gust for the short chill to try landing something. In air it’s pretty simple, you need to be able to hit your Air Attunement and Lightning Strike, Blinding flash and Swirling winds are utility skills. In Earth you have most survability, but Magnetic wave can be used for damage to proc Fresh air, same goes for Rock barrier and the followed up skill.

You didn’t say what amulet and weapons you use, that’s quite important, but from what you wrote, I think it would be good to adjust your build a bit.

I would rather have them to fix the actual weapon first before the animations, since I assume they cannot do both some reasonable time window.

Who am I kidding, it’s not gonna happen anyway.

Iavra.8510:

If you are an ele, pop Shock Aura and you’ll see the difference between invul and evading.

Except it doesn’t hit you when you evade, there is a small time window when you can interrupt Blurred frenzy before the evade time frame starts. Just like Burning speed.

Jace al Thor.6745:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Nier.8741:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I read this as…

“Hi! I don’t play Mesmer, but here’s some changes to bring the class in line and make it fair while adding risk vs reward. Sure, I have no idea how this will affect the class in other areas of the game, nor do I know the effects this will have on any other build besides the one I’ve had to fight.”

“Why 15 seconds? Because… It felt like a good number. I’ve done extensive test- oh wait.”

Oh yet, my favorite person agreed with you’

“There’s no risk with a class that fights from ranged! What.. You mean I’m actually NOT mad at Mesmer and just don’t like their greatsword? No! Nerf the whole kitten class! They get one 2.5s evade and an immune! I hate that!!!!!”

Jeez.. I really hope by now the devs have weeded out the real problem. No offense OP but those suggestions are not only overkill, it ignores the fact that the class on a whole is not overpowered. A few traits (3 to be exact) need fixing/shaving, not gutting.

That is sad and pathetic if you refuse to understand that Mesmer never took skill to begin with

Like evading while doing 10k instant cast shatters is just as easy as Rampage. You’re just angry that you’re in denial that you play an easy and effective class.

Come to me with a logical argument about why Mesmer “doesn’t take skill” compared to whatever “hard mode” class you’re playing with some actual facts rather than broad generalizations. Then we’ll talk.

Oh yeah, almost forgot… Smiley-face.

But Chaos don’t you realize for a logical argument to appear there would have to be an actual logical argument? Not just forum warrior logic involved?

I don’t think this is quite fair. I’m not saying that OP’s suggestions are something I would like, but lots of people and especially mesmers do not see where people coming from. For example I’ve seen some mesmers saying Power block is fine, while my experience differs greatly. It’s in many times the most damage I take from a fight, I am able to dodge shatter if it’s not coming from stealth, but there is literally nothing I can do against this trait. It’s not like I can just prevent getting interrupted.

If I’m on necro and Consume conditions get interrupted, which is very easy to do due the cast time, I have a very chance of being dead. Could I do something against it? Possibly to LOS, but the mesmer can just port to you and necro do not have many tools of escaping. Having 15 seconds cooldown on Consume conditions without getting the heal off is quite punishing knowing there’s very little the necro can do. You can say that interrupting a heal should be rewarded, but with 1 and 1/4 cast time, I’m rather surprised if it doesn’t get interrupted.

Shattered concentration is one of these traits that lets you counter long cooldowns quite easily and again there’s nothing you can do if the shatter is coming from stealth. Obviously it’s random what’s going to be stripped, but if the only counterplay is to hope for the better outcome, I don’t think it’s quite okay.

PanteonGR.7620:

dont know if it was posted again but i found this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17GtedDJmeI

I don’t get it…

Solori.6025:

Laraley.7695:

ASP.8093:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Shattered Concentration: Have a CD of 15 sec.

You’re mad that someone can interrupt you through Rampage, huh?

Imo a class that has so much access to interrupts shouldn’t be able to remove boons so effectively as mesmer. What actual counterplay is there?

1. The frequency of boon stripping is no where near as bad as your are making it out to be, they are tied to shatter. And if you are using shatter for defensive purposes you are not using it for boon stripping.
And if you are using shatter for boon stripping you are not using it for an opportune spike.

2. Mesmer’s have pretty much agreed that CS and PU need a shave. I think everyone in the mesmer community can come clean and say the stuns are too much and they need an ICD.

Look in this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/We-re-in-danger-Mesmer-nerf-discussion/first#post5282286

Pretty much what we have been asking for is a nerf to the frequency of CS and an increased CD of Mantra of Distraction.

A shave of PU to grant a flat 2 seconds of stealth.

and the bug of BD to be fixed.

That is more than enough to not only put mesmer in line, but to keep mesmer on the same playing field as other classes so it isn’t out of the meta again for 2+ years.

Unless people just want mesmer’s out of the meta and suggest random nerfs that serve no real purpose but to nerf.

I’m not saying that the proposed change is fine, I’m saying there is no counterplay to mesmer cc as they can strip your stability and it can be instant. What counterplay is there? Still haven’t got the answer to my question.

Also, if you use Mind Wrack to strip boons, it’s not like it won’t do the damage anyway.

Tien.3865:

I also kinda want to run the Fire traitline with Traveler’s but I don’t feel like getting a whole new set of armor and runes (I’m running Air with Hoelbrak runes atm).

Recently I saw a build that ran the Burning Fire trait, which allowed the user to replace Cleansing Fire with Signet of Air for the 25% movement speed. Would that be an acceptable alternative? When activated, the SoA is a stunbreak on a pretty low cooldown so I guess it’s not completely useless, but then I’d lose the movement speed for 25 seconds, which would suck. The swiftness from air attunement swap is only 5 seconds, so that’d hardly make up for it. Updraft also provides swiftness, but it’s too valuable to use on cooldown just for the swiftness.

I think it’s possible that the person was running fresh air build, since it was quite common to see Signet of air on fresh air eles and some still use it now. On celestial cantrip ele you lose the synergy with traits (Soothing Disruption, Burning Fire), but I think it’s a pretty viable option, too. It’s a stubreak on a pretty low cooldown with a nice passive buff and if you don’t face heavy condition opponents, it can be fine to use it. Just try it out and see.

Knighthonor.4061:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tempest_Warhorn_Skin

let that sink in…

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tempest_Sword_Skin

ASP.8093:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Shattered Concentration: Have a CD of 15 sec.

You’re mad that someone can interrupt you through Rampage, huh?

Imo a class that has so much access to interrupts shouldn’t be able to remove boons so effectively as mesmer. What actual counterplay is there?

jportell.2197:

Vanthian.9267:

jportell.2197:

Wow so clearly there are people here that are new or relatively new.

Blurred frenzy was nerfed hard in 2013 May:
Blurred Frenzy CD increased by 20%
This skill now is an evade instead of an invulnerability.

So in a time when mesmers were hardly considered for teams ever, and halting strike did jack all for damage mesmer blurred frenzy was double nerfed.

Oh also! This was a time when Anet was considering putting an internal cooldown on deceptive evasion.

So maybe we should look at past nerfs before crying for more? Just maybe. If blurred frenzy is touched again mesmers will have no decent mainhand.

So full of it. Nerfed blurred frenzy? They changed it from a invulnerability to a evade which in this game are the same dam thing. You can’t be controlled or damaged, unless you already have condition on you, with both a evade and invulnerability.

The only thing that slightly affected you is the 20% increase on cool down and even that wasn’t much. It is still just as spamable just like the block for engineers which needs to be toned town.

Mesmer has always been strong 1v1 just like Thief have fine defenses without stealth even if all you people do is kitten the opposite. Most of this community that is left is just to bad to see it. That is why all the actual pvpers abandon ship a long time.

No they aren’t the same kitten thing. Before blurred frenzy was the only reason that sword was taken. Because illusionary leap missed its path to the target half the time. It also made it so mesmers could actually be in a team fight with out eating a face full of retal from guardians. It was a double whammy and right after that happened is when mesmers disappeared from the meta for quite a long time. The only reason sword was taken more recently is because we need a somewhat decent mainhand and illusionary leap after almost 3 years was finally fixed!

So no evade and invuln weren’t the same thing. And now people want to nerf the once nerfed blurred frenzy some more? What do you want it to be nerfed into now? 20s cooldown who’s activation time is so slow that there is no way it could count as an evade?

O wait. The devs would prolly do that.

Can you tell me how evade and invulnerability are not effectively the same thing in pvp? You do not take damage from any skills, no new conditions can be applied on you and you also cannot be cced. The only thing that’s different is the fact Blurred frenzy won’t save you from taking damage from retaliation, which is only an issue if you fight guardians/engis and do not know how to position yourself.

Also look at all other skills that provide evade, the time frame of the evade is usually 1/2 to 1 sec, for some reason Blurred frenzy provide 2 and 1/2 sec of evade on 12 second cooldown. On top of that mesmers have distortion by default, I think every profession would love that, having an invulnerability for free.

Mesmers are clearly over the top, not all nerf suggestions are justified, but stop acting like they killed the class with this change.