Guild Wars 2

TheGuy.3568:

I do not understand what you mean. I get forums are about with responses but I simply pointed out you can run a bunker build with that point allocation. Unless you would like to explain to me how it is not bunker (I do not think it is important to the conversation however). Perhaps you are new and do not understand what bunker is or you are considering only a certain type of bunker build ie high defensive stats and soaks up damage vs damage avoidance. In either case I explain what a bunker is for reference in my other post.

No … you seem to misunderstand what a bunker is.

Please go ahead and show me a bunker build with that point allocation and preferably without the traits i mentioned (even with them its not a real bunker build).

Everything can be called a bunker in that case. Most professions have their ways to avoid, soak or overcome dmg (via regen etc) unless people are full glass with little to no defensive traits or uttilities. If we look at the title of this thread:

“Why are some bunkers allowed to do so much damage”

Im not thinking off SD thieves that use spamevades to stay alive. Or hammer warriors with their stunns. Or cookie cutter bomb /nade engis with their blinds and knockback. Or standard condi build necros using plague as elite.

Im looking at real bunkerbuilds that have ways to avoid AND soak damage. Since only avoidance whont get you very far when youre forced to stay on point vs two players.

You might aswell change the question to:

“Why is everyone that has ways to avoid, mitigate or overcome damage doing so much damage”.

^ Which basicly means everyone (unless youre full glass). As chaith stated:

Chaith.8256:

I think that almost all of the complaints about ‘bunkers’ doing too much damage are in fact complaints about ‘balanced’ builds doing too much damage. IE, offensive utilities, weapons & traits, but defensive stats.

0/0/10/30/30 clerics/soldiers shouts Guardian, 0/0/30/30/20 settlers/clerics Engineer

^These are real bunker builds. They indeed, do no damage. I think players have a tendency to exaggerate the ‘unkillable’-ness of many builds that are actually a healthy mix.

^ You might aswell call everything a bunker in that case.

Master of Timespace.2548:

You are just redefining the “high damage bunker builds” as “balanced builds”.

So what is a bunker in your eyes? Ive been called high dmg bunker on my 30-10-0-20-10 engineer (without prot injection or cleansing formula). Do you you agree with that statement?

So basicly anything that has some tools to survive or isnt 100% glasscanon is a bunker?

I have no idea where people got the idea that the community is the problem. Its incredibly far fetched. If the pvp in this game is good, people will play it.

So what do we need to move the game to healthier state.

- Properly balanced combat. With classes that are easy to get in to and hard to master.
- Classbalance (i think this is allready good enough atm).
- Enough incentives. Maybe some gold and materials for long term goals to keep people playing. I would love to see the possibilitie of obtaining legendaries that are usable in both PvE and PvP at the same time.
- More (interesting) gamemodes. More focus on deathmatch types of gameplay. Quality smallscale skirmishes need to be the main priority instead of playing around objectives.

Dear Anet developers,

A bit late maybe. but I really loved your mapcreation livestream. I really think you guys are doing your absolute best to create the best possible experience. But i really fear that you guys will overdo and overthink things again. Make things more complicated than they need to be.

Pvpers are relatively simple creatures. the only thing we want is a mode that allows for small scale quality pvp skirmishes.

(Secondary) objectives should be there to support/enhance the pvp skirmishes, while at this moment its the other way around. In conquest we skirmish to get a hold of the objectives. Which is a totally different way of thinking and playing the game.

Secondary objectives should be a means to an end. They should support or buff you without being the deciding (cheesy) factor like on some of the current maps. Killing people (and defending your own) should be.

I really think that if you follow this theory, the popularity of pvp in this game will skyrocket. Look at the succesfull 2v2 tournament that was held last week as an example. While it was barely advertised they managed to get up to 1300 viewers out of nowhere (GW2 usually hovers between 100-300 viewers in total these days).

Skyhammer is a troll map filled with cheesey one shot mechanics. The direct opposite of what the pvp crowd wants. The only thing that is missing is a big troll face in the middle of your + your victims screen after you stealth + tripwire someone to its death.

It has its fun moments, in a minigame kind of way.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i would say that is just you and a few vocal minority who voices out on the forum.

the rest who are enjoying are playing in the 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers.

Its actually the other way around. You are part of the vocal minority that keeps promoting 8v8 as the epitome of casual pvp. The poll that was made showed that you are in fact incorrect. A clear majority wants 5v5 as main go to format for hotjoin pvp.

You mean all 50ish of them? Since that was the number of players playing hotjoin at 22.00 last night in eu. Pretty much all games in my “gaming librabry” atm have pvp that is more popular than GW2s atm. That includes games that are 10-15 years old and games you probably never heard off.

8 v 8 is like a minigame or skyhammer in general. Great for shortterm fun (if youre in to that) but its a bad point of entry if you want to create a healthy pvp community.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i would say people who enjoys casual PvP will enjoy 8 v 8 hotjoin

I enjoy casual pvp. but i hate 8v8 with a passion.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

right after i respawned i would immediately charge back into battle.

Did you record it? other wise it only be only your word and without any solid evidence.

^ See what i did there?

This map is a typical case of making things harder and more complex than they need to be.

“The only thing we want is simple pvp”

- We want maps and gamemodes that create fair small scale skirmishes.
- We dont want secondary objectives that have an enormous impact on the game.
- We dont want cheesy one shot mechanics.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

in 8 vs 8 hot join.
players come and leave.

people enjoy casual sPvP in hotjoin 8 vs 8.

something that solo arena 4 vs 5 can never achieve.
to have fun.

Youre not making any sense at all. When i join 8v8 in hotjoin i see a frustrating mess, lots of wow like trolling, flames in chat, etc.

Having 8v8 as the starting point for new pvpers in this game is the worst thing that could happen. The only guys who enjoy it are the same guys who enjoy crabtoss etc (lol @ your sig). Guys who pvp once every 2-3 months.

The last 8v8 i did i saw 3 guys standing afk in the starting area. When i asked them what they where doing two of them replied “i am only here for my daily”.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

they will not experience 8 vs 8, but 4 vs 5. long wait time for queues. etc.
sometimes, bad attitude from team members, opposing team, etc.

And thats any different in 8v8?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

the same will happen to them if they enter solo arena or team arena.

8 vs 8 is not a zerg fest by the way.

Nope it whont.

And yes it is in an unorganized group.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

1st priority: gw2 spvp need more players.

People try out GW2 pvp for the first time → get thrown in an 8v8 zergfest → run like hell and never look back.

Thats what happened with my contacts at least.

Almost every pvp game has something similar.

Its fun in its own trollish way. With the creation of this map anet shows we shouldnt take pvp that seriously. Just enjoy it for what it is…a minigame.

No.

- Classes are absurdly far apart in terms of depth and risk/reward.
- Without sweetfx the game looks very gloomy/blurry which makes it hard to follow.
- Esports are usually kill oriented. Conquest isnt.
- Adding skyhammer shows they see this as a minigame and not as esports. Filled with trollish 1 shot possibilities. Fun but far from esports.

The system is fine.

The only problem is the lack of people pvping in this game (due to a few obvious reasons).

If we had 1000’s of people pvping during specific moments, matchups woud be far more even than they are now.

The marketing from anet is really lacking to be honest. Whats the message behind all this? The majority of MMOs are free to play now….so the only target audience they could be aiming at is wow subscribers.

This group is paying for an MMO allready. They are willing to pay monthly if the game is fun/ good enough. You whont lure them in by saying “you get a lot of stuff for free”.

What they should do instead is make a proper summary of what makes this game so unique and great. Ive havent seen a high quality video with hands on examples of what is so great about this game. Some dynamic events and their stories maybe, zone diversity, diversity of content at end game., a proper discription of GW2 combat etc. etc etc.

Decrypter.1785:

Not atm but in the future who knows , gvg , templates , observe etc guild halls all coming then YES!!!

You forgot completely redesign combat for 80% of the classes.

Thats not the way to balance it. In ideal world healing signet would be divided in two bits.

- A direct heal vs spike dmg.
- A passive heal vs mediocre condi pressure.

Now people never use the active bit, which just shows how poorly designed/balanced the signet is. Id say the trick is to balance out these two so you get enough HPS….but still have to use the direct heal at tmes.

Junkpile.7439:

If 30 chess nerds start to play football most of them will quit too.

With that difference that footballl actually has depth and being "bad"will result in failure. In GW2 however…

But youre right about one thing tho. Comparing GW2 to esports is like comparing football to chess. They are miles apart.

Not really no. Its a minigame like crabtoss, sanctum sprint etc.

The difference in depth and coordination required to play classes succesfully is absurd in this game. Most people who dont play GW2 laugh about GW2s 5 button classes. and to some extend theyre right.

If you let someone who has a history in esports play this game on a warrior, necro, spiritranger, guardian etc he whont take it seriously. Because there is no depth of play…. its one of the most shallow gameplay experiences in the history of games who aimed for esports.

I started this game with 30ish some of the most hardcore pvpers. Multiseason wow glads, tournament level RTS players and high level moba players.

Im the only one who didnt quit within 2 weeks.

I started GW2 with about 30 of my wow guildies. 90% of them where in the upper echelon of the EU brackets. Multiseason glads (top 0.5%) + rank 1 RBG guild in the world for several months.

These where players that demanded depth within their classes gameplay. The classes needed to be easy to get in to, but hard and rewarding to master. GW2 didnt deliver that. So every single one but me stopped.

We have a few builds that offer proper balanced gameplay and the right balance between risk and reward. Others (necro of any spec, spiritranger etc) are the typical 5 button class that all the GW2 haters often refer to. Even if they arent super strong in a certain meta…..its still a class with relatively simple mechanics.

The difference in depth between classes in this game is literally absurd. So if a new guy picks one of the shallow classes he ends up getting an incorrect image of the game.

Turra.4529:

My mesmer in sPvP

Amazing looking char

Big thumbs up for the stream!

Really liked the looks of one of the maps that didnt make it; the “sylvari map”. So i hope one of the new gamemodes incorporates that style (If you guys can keep it watchable with all the vines that might get in the way).

The main thing i would focus on is creating a map/gamemode where the outcome of small scale skirmishes is the deciding factor. Where you gain an advantage based on kills and winning small fights like that. A bit like a moba (maybe a moba hybrid could be an option).

An arguement can be made that in conquest this is the case aswell. But imo its more about rotating correctly to get area control in conquest. Where in a gamemode that focusses more on kills your entire mindset is different.

Josh Davis.6015:

Thanks for taking the time to design this! I hope this catches on and people post more ideas.

Might be an idea to organize a map designing contest, with some cool prices etc. Custom arena packages, gems or maybe even some hardware.

- Might be a great way to feed the allready excisting ideas you guys have in house.
- Good way to get the community involved and thinking alongside the devs.
- 100.000 minds have a bigger chance to come up with something that will be succesful than a small team of pvp devs.

You could create a certain set guidelines + assignments to make sure entries are actually usable and not just original.

Sensotix.4106:

Duke is right I agree here..
the reward for playing such an engineer in connection with no risk at all since (you can easily tank up to 2 people for a longer time) is not intended I hope and should be changed

While the build is far to tanky and mobile for its dmg output…..its still a lot harder to play well than playing necro. And i played necro as main for ages (yes i like to faceroll at times).

Necro is the type of class that in my eyes gives GW2 a bad name (along with spirit ranger for example). If people talk about GW2 being a simple 5 button game, they talk about classes like that. If they talk about the fact that they quit since it was too simple….in most cases they played a class like that.

So to me its quite comical that someone complains about a class/spec being faceroll while playing one of the easiest pvp classes in the history of MMOs.

And yes i agree that AR should be looked at. I would change it to something like – 50% condi duration under 40% health or something like that. Total immunity is just far to good, even if there are ways to bypass it.

scooby treat.8420:

There is a game that has been out for a very very long time and is still doing better than GW2 and its a paid game (i’m sure you can figure out which game). Is it a better looking game? Not even close. Is it cheaper? No you have to pay each month. Then what makes the people stay and not come to GW2? They got it right (not for everyone but most of the masses).

Ahh you mean this game?

game where cheaters, exploiters and wintraders are ignored/ not dealt with for multiple seasons / years.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/leaderboards/5v5

Normal top ratings are 2500-2600. But you need a really high winpercentage for that (somewhere in the 90 % area). Notice how 3 people in the top 5 have a negative W/L even.

What about this:? http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/243352-interrupt-hacking/

There is currently an issue with people using semi automated bots. So 90% of your gameplay gets automated for you including perfect burst rotations etc. The only thing you have to do is move, initiate combat and inititate burst.

normyp.8671:

I think we’d all like a PERMANENT explorable area added to the game, that’s what everyone loved this game for… was for exploring… right?

There are two main reasons:

- Zone development is by far the most costly part of the entire development process. We are talking about millions per zone.
- They dont want a world like in wow. Where 90% of the zones are deserted/obsolete (even with cross realm zones).

http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7559/Up-to-90-of-MMO-Real-Estate-is-Wasted.html

This is going to be a good one.

Guys chill. Its understandable if certain things frustrate you. But try to keep it a bit civil and constructive. We are talking with a single human being here. Someone who is part of a much bigger process.

Unless you want a situation like on the wow forums. Where devs simply stopped communicating at all via the forums. The answers you do get from Bliz are copy pasted automatic answers from customer service employees who arent even located in the same country as the devs.

Where all important questions get ignored by the devs while balance is in a stalemate where 70% of all 3v3 teams at decent ratings contain 1 class.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-classesrepartition-0-0-0-0-0-3-2-0.html

Where one after the other top tier player stops due to an obvious powercreep. With no patch incoming for 8-9 months at least.

I prefer Anets approach and prefer to keep it that way.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Justin conducted a poll on whether players preferred 8vs8 or 5vs5, and when I looked at it, the overwhelming majority wanted just 5vs5."
that is just referring to the “Play Now” button and not as a whole.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Poll-Team-size-for-Play-Now/first#post3198253

^ Link to the thread + poll.

Magmorel.7806:

On a side note i mention some things about mesmer in the beginning, are these alogations correct?

Not really no. Mesmer is probably the best 1v1 class atm if specced correctly. The specs they struggle with the most will get nerfed in the up coming patch (10 dec) aswell. Some people state that mesmers will be the top dogs after the patch.

They offer some of the best burst damage in game if you specced for that, but you can go conditions or phantasms aswell. If you want a general idea of what type of pvp builds there are and what the gameplay looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/user/osianic2/videos?shelf_id=2&view=0&sort=dd

Another option could be to play an engineer, which is considered really strong now aswell. And its pronanly the hardest class to play in this game. So a lot of depth if youre looking for it. And due to its variety of tools and builds its quite diverse and it can do those “crazy things” you mention in your post.

Mind thats its really hard to get a good feel for a class/ prof if your low lvl level, or if you play a somewhat kitten build. Best advice i can give to you is to watch some experienced players play a specific class your interested in on a twitch stream or w/e.

Maccros.4129:

I play a Mesmer and I think I will stick to it.
In other mmos classes were more specific. I’ve played and enjoyed tank class, heal class and dps. My tank was dps with shield (mix def/off) my heal was defensive/heal spec and my dps were glass cannons.

Mesmer is comparable to a glass canon. Relying on stealth and clones to hide behind while pvping. Keep in mind that Its not an easy class at all. Making a mistake will lead to you dying in most cases. You need to be very clutch to make make sure you dont get hit by big stuff.

Im quite the experienced wow pvp player myself (2.2 – 2.6 on 7 classes) and even i struggled with certain classes. So dont expect instant succes, unless you end up switching to one of the easier classes.

If i had to describe mesmers role in organized play id say its like a rogueish mage. “Hiding in the shadows” and avoiding dmg untill that moment when your team bursts X target down.

They arent super strong atm. But i heard the new patch (10 dec) and nerfs to some of their counterclasses (thieves) will shift the momentum in their favour.

Seveleniumus.5973:

Well, axe has the highest dps, not much control or mobility though, so it may not be the best 1 vs 1, but if you’re not being focused or your enemy doesn’t have much of those two himself you can bring quite the beating upon your enemies.
I personally like axe + warhorn combination in WvW.

Axe + mace/ LB with bullrush has more than enough mobility and control for spvp.

It feels like im doing better in 1v1’s even, especially vs other warriors. Dont think ive lost a single 1v1 vs warrior since ive been using that build.

Been playing this for a few days on my alt warrior: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fIAQNAnZTjkOxuxQuQMxBEkCNsKMKGigQ9YO2w4A-TsAA1CnIMSZkzIjRSjsGNg4IykAA

Feels like im slicing through people like a hot knife through butter. And with 2 knockdowns and an immob you have enough tools to get those crazy eviscerate crits off.

Julie Yann.5379:

He is saying that anyone of those builds can easily dispose of those so called OP Hammer warriors when played right.

I didnt even say they / we (since i play one aswell) where OP as a whole. What i did say was that the damage while being tanky is quite crazy. And that no profession has that combination of being good at so many things at the same time.

Olba.5376:

Guess you must be getting hit for 13,000 by Eviscerate and something like 25,000 by 100 Blades…

So youre telling me the screenshot is fake?

Olba.5376:

Point being: If you’re getting hit by that much, you’re against an extreme glass cannon Thief.

Isnt almost every thief glass canon in wvw?

Olba.5376:

Locuz.2651:

- A bunker mesmer typically has around 2700 armor and 15k hp. One backstab in wvw regularly crits for about 11-12k on armor levels like that. Are you telling me you would get globaled like that when using a defensive build + runes as warrior?

With 122% crit damage and a weapon damage of 1030, a Thief would need ~3600 Power to hit you for 11,000 damage on crit. And that’s assuming that you’re already <50% hp to trigger Executioner and have at least one condition on you to trigger Exposed Weakness.

If you were to get an average damage roll and have 50%+ HP, then the Thief would somehow need ~4,400 Power to hit you for 11,000.

Please stop pulling numbers out of your kitten .

Such a nice story man.

I guess i dreamt this and in some way my dream materialized on the screenshot:

http://i.imgur.com/CPV14oh.png

deathTouch.9706:

1) Condi bunker mesmer (add perplex runes for fun)
2) Zerker phantasm mesmer of any decent build w/ PU
3) Condi pistol/shield engie (no burst but high sustained condi dmg)
4) Hybrid-dmg celestial rifle engie w/ runes of noble + grenade spam
5) Any well-played dire-geared condi anything, including but not limited to necros.

And that’s just off the top of my head.

None of these classes have everything. So what youre saying is:

- Necromancers have the same mobility as warriors?
- A rifle engi who tries to achieve similar burst as a warrior is just as durable (able to take care of condis, able to facetank dmg) and mobile as warrior? Please link me a build that can do that.
- A bunker mesmer typically has around 2700 armor and 15k hp. One backstab in wvw regularly crits for about 11-12k on armor levels like that. Are you telling me you would get globaled like that when using a defensive build + runes as warrior?
- A condi engineer is more about outlasting than frontload dmg (unless you take the broken perlexity runes in to consideration). And to do good dmg they need a good number of might stacks. Without it the damage is quite weak imo.

And youre mentioning a lot of condi specs. While most warriors run with melandru runes, dogged march and – condi duration food. Which is more – condi duration than any condi class can make up for with traits and food.

deathTouch.9706:

However, then swap out your gear for full zerker + cav and drop mel runes for hoelbrak and go solo roam looking for 1vX fights and see how well you do without understanding your exact CD’s, understanding the
builds of the people you’re facing and knowing when to time your stun locks + burst and dmg mitigation CDs.

Why stop there? Just go without traits, gear and with just an axe offhand. That would be a true challenge. And this wisdom can be applied to every single profession in the game.

Problem is that we as warriors dont need to use offensive gear or runes. We can build our character to be tanky, have good CC, have good mobility … while being able to do good damage/burst at the same time.

There is no profession that has all of that wrapped in one package.

Julie Yann.5379:

Well just have to agree to disagree on that one. I know that a well played Mesmer, Thief, Engi, are stronger than a well played warrior.

This isnt a discussion about what profession is the strongest. Its about the relative ease to get to the skillfloor & cap. Its a common known fact that its relatively easy to be succesfull as warrior. Even at the top of the ladder.

Or it could be that im absurdly talented since im able to be succesfull on a “super difficult” profession i only played for a few weeks (yup that is probably it).

And saying class X is stronger is quite silly unless you come up with specific situations where they stronger. Are you talking about 1v1’s? WvW roaming? WvW blob play? SPvP teamfights? Spvp far point pushing? etc etc.

Noc.2459:

While I wait for my tournament queue to pop I like playing hotjoin. But when it pops the game is not over yet and I dont get any reward for playing, do I?

So in the end I can only stand in the mists and stare 20 minutes on the wall.

Thanks.

Ye. I mean only insane people pvp for the sake of it. We need rewards!

Right?

(and yes that was sarcasm).

Julie Yann.5379:

Warrior is one of the hardest classes when playing at high skill levels.

The direct opposite of what you said is true. Its one of the easiest classes to pick up and play at any skilllevel.

There are quite a few examples of top tier tpvp players switching from a class they played for months to their rarely played alt warrior. And doing better with that than their main class.

Im not super experienced while playing warrior. But for some reason i manage to do fine in small scale skirmishes/1v1’s vs guys like pösi (pax tournament winner & member of one of the best GvG guilds in eu).

Gathslan.1870:

Warrior is not easy when compared to other classes,

There are some that are just as easy. But quite a few professions like ele or engi are a lot harder to play well.

That does not mean that warrior doesnt have any ways to show skillfull play.

Peow peow.2189:

Hi

I just started this game and I am playing a warrior. Whenever I see people in the mists pvp they spam me when i beat them saying im playing an easy class.

Why do they act this way? Is something wrong with the warrior?

Warrior is indeed one of the the easiest classes to play. A lot of the most important tools that a warrior brings to the table are passive like cleansing ire and healing signet. The warrior in itself doesnt allow for a lot of depth mechanics wise even if you wanted to.

But that doenst mean its not fun ….and isnt that what its all about?

Certain people will always hate if they get beaten. No matter what class you play on. So i wouldnt worry too much about the trashtalking.

Decrypter.1785:

i hear axe getting boosted to burst , no ?

Axe is quite good allready but noone is playing it since the majority goes the easy route.: copy pasting builds.

Ive been playing axe/mace + longbow for quite a while now. More frontload dmg but a bit less aoe control than hambow. And if your f1 gets dodged for whatever reason you whont lose your adrenaline due to some random pet or w/e that got hit by the aoe.

My quess is that this will be the new cookie cutter build/setup.

I think tremor (warrior mace 5) is a well designed CC in this game. Well telegraphed on the character (shout + raising her hand upwards) and avoidable by outmanouvre’ing or dodging it since its cone shaped.

Writetyper.1985:

In all seriousness, I feel like they’re right where they need to be currently, however post patch Engineers two main counters – Necromancers, and lesser so, warriors – are getting nerfed slightly wheras Engineers don’t really get a serious nerf at all (I know what you’re thinking, I’ll get on to that in a moment). .

Necros lose 1 bleed on their staff 2, people whont even notice it.

The nerf to hammer will actually hurt engineers. One of the main thing an engi does to counter warriors is spec in to prot injection. So hammer basicly gives them protection whenever the warriors wants to hurt them. If they dont spec in to prot injection this happens: http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3063182

Warriors will look for alternatives and the damage of those alternatives will be harder to counter than the current hambow is imo. Played around with some axe builds on my alt warrior last night and i was slicing through those “tanky” engineers like a hot knife through butter.

Just a few of my personal thoughts about engineers:

+ Engineers are great for some off point support. Grenades from the top of ledges and being able to push far point a few seconds later. This is where the prof shines imo since you can provide support and add pressure from relatively long range (eventho ppl will see those nades inc and are able to dodge due to travel time).
+ Supply crate is one of the best if not the best elite in the game atm. This is imo the main reason why (condi) engineers are considered strong in 1v1 situations.
+ The healing is potent…but only if used in combination with multiple blast finishers.

- Their condi damage isnt nearly as potent as necros’ and it involves dodgeable skillshots. As necro i can spam autoaim scepter 1 for a similar effect as multiple landed nades for example.
- The condiremoval of most meta builds is really weak.
- Engi heavily relies on vigor/dodges to survive. Locking him in to place with an immob means he can die within 3 seconds.

Indeed just got the 10 minute notice.