Guild Wars 2

Lux.7169:

It will weed out the lesser skilled thieves. Honestly I bet any top tier thief sees these buffs to engie/ranger power spec as a buff to thieves as well. Sure the other classes are getting buffed and even ways that directly counter stealth, but its buffing power specs, which thieves are quite strong against naturally. Adding in revealed creates mind games and interesting counter play.

I could be totally wrong and am the only thief welcoming these changes. But I would 100% rather fight a power ranger or a glassier engie than the current meta.

A evil thought just past through my mind what if they did all this because they will buff stealth? The irony would kill me alone lol but great to see rangers happy and probably less condi turreteer but seriously what will…happen..to….thief….?

FeelsAlright.5860:

Lux.7169:

I also really like that revealed debuffs are becoming more easily accessible. I hope we see more classes with access to revealing.

I feel like they should’ve made it more difficult to achieve stealth rather than having a 1 button push that neutralizes a class’ entire defense system.

I play SA thief 1 skill that reveals for every class it’s not much just a little more challenge that’s assuming of course they are not all instant cast.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Really feel like thief will be pushed out of this next meta. They seem to be buffing skills that give revealed. Engy will be even more of a hard counter to thief than it was before. If they nerf sword main hand or s/d because of the qq of this current meta the class will be dead in spvp.

Edit: Also feel like they should be making it harder to enter stealth, not completely neutralizing the class by pressing 1 button to defeat all their defenses. More abilities that apply revealed is directly a result of getting free stealths from the d/p black powder heartseeker combo which should have been made harder to achieve a long time ago.

Meh I play SA thief if all class have 1 revealed skill it’s not much really just a little more challenge and maybe engi won’t die from condi too fast and but ranger might be tricky.

Don’t forget thief will get it’s changes too so keep an open mind.

Engineer and Ranger will now have one 6 sec revealed skill which could balance the stealth abusing a little. Hoping the upcoming thief changes are good for us.

Kande.1930:

might actually be able to stand toe to toe with those pesky pu mesmers now

I can feel the joy for engi users but what changes are the mesmer and other classes going to have can straighten your crooked smile everyone should wait till all classes are covered.

Sagat.3285:

Sagat.3285:

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section.

You cannot compare the sustain system of different armor classes it’s irrational. Glass ele>glass thief>glass war the lower the armor the more rewarding the sustain but because glass guardian has lower HP than war they get better sustain system AKA the holy blind and meditations which is closer to ele or thief sustain.

In shorther terms : block/stances/GS<stealth,evade<Sc/F set up

mammasaura.5907:

Lately I’m playing a p/p thief in www with decent success.
I can assure that Black Powder has an heavy impact on the survivability of the build because of the blind, not the stationary blind (mainly used vs melee) but the one from the combo finisher with bp+unload.

With ricochet I can also support the team with a sort of AOE blind.

Changing BP into a dark field, it’ll shift the p/p weapon set more offensive, stripping the only really defense system the p/p set has, blindness.

I can see your point of view but the fact remains it is still an inferior set which doesn’t a have breath in period that the others sets provide. I never saw any good P/P users but one problem that I keep thinking of is the damage vs sustain. Most just spam unload till foe fall but the initiative cost for the chance of reward is insane on the other hand just doing AA and only using BP+Unload to evade damage would seem good if AA had higher pure damage but causes bleed and zerker wouldn’t make the most if.

The idea is to make Head Shot like Unload to sync with dark field BP just like Dancing Dagger can help you land CnD that would mean Unload would become a new dual skill that could fill in for that lost. I’m not sure of what that skill could be but it should be worthy of the change maybe a knockback or possibly a pistol version of Flanking Strike.

Auesis.7301:

Atherakhia.4086:

I was under the impression that D/D was the goto Thief DPS set with pistol only viable on trash.

That’s right – S/P against huge trash groups in high Fractals (the most time-consuming element in that area) is one of our greatest strengths and one of the things that differentiates us from Engineers with maximum glass grenade builds (that can quite easily match S/P and get near D/D’s potential in an AoE setting (around 1k DPS less), partially from the damage itself and partially due to the huge Vulnerability stacking potential). Those blinds are a HUGE portion of our utility that makes us desirable over alternatives, as well as the Smoke field used to blast through long Stealth runs eg. CM. There will be very little merit to bringing a Thief when an Engineer is perfectly capable of bringing Smokes to blast.

People are heavily underestimating how much the loss of that blind is going to hurt PvE Thieves. I don’t think any of the suggestions here have come close to mitigating that loss. I’d be okay with and agree with a lot of these changes eg. Dark fields and so on, but only in a WvW or PvP setting.

Not sure GW2 is the type of game with different settings in the 3 modes but yeah the pve factor was forgotten. We are not proposing changing all blind fields on thief just BP but I can see how S/P will be affected but not to that extent. Usually Smoke Screen and SR provide enough stealth duration.

Curunen.8729:

Farzo.8410:

Stealth is getting really old, really fast.

It’s so boring to fight against Thiefs or Mesmers.

What? Boring?

On the contrary – I find it the most fun. Boring is fighting tanky warriors/engi/guard/necro even ele – avoid the bullkitten and keep chipping away at those pve-like health bars.

At least vs thief and mesmer you can take away a significant chunk of hp with one good burst, even if they’re a little tanky. Much more fun to anticipate stealth attacks and time counter bursts, than to bash your head against the aforementioned bunker brick walls.

Anyway, on topic
- raise air sigil ICD to 5s
- give all sigils of the same type shared cooldown
- change sigil of battle to 3 stacks of might for 10 seconds

Therefore – can’t use two of the same type on one weapon – so must be one swap and one crit for example.
Also have choice between high single target proc (air) and medium damage aoe proc (fire).

That would be a decent starting point IMO.

All sigils same CD doesn’t make sense

Air sigil: 3 sec CD single target strike
Fire sigil : 5 sec CD aoe strike

Earth sigil : 2 sec CD single target bleed
Torment sigil : 5 sec CD aoe torment(WWW)

Unless air and earth get buff they should not be the same CD.

Auesis.7301:

Can I just point out that removing the pulsing blind from BP and/or the Smoke field would completely cripple the majority of Thief PvE utility and survivability as a consequence? A full glass Engineer is already extremely close to our maximum damage output AND can apply far more Vulnerability alongside the limited Stealth they can apply (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bAcpwAdwB24CxK_Ziy8ygISUHCkQepLfRMh2_PtP52o/edit#gid=1883199869) – without these combat utilities we will be completely obsolete. The two are competitive right now because of utility (lots of blinds + more stealth) vs. massive Vulnerability stacking and other versatility eg. Fire fields. That won’t be the case if this change happened.

If this is the way it has to be to balance WvW or PvP, then there HAS to be a split or the damage to the class will be beyond repair in other game modes.

I’d like to not be stuck doing CM and only CM for the rest of my life since that’s the only thing I would be good for competitively, ever.

Yes I understand the consequences of it in the current conditions the goal is for all the skills on set to be worthy of using not just the stealth attack or dual ones in some situations.A damage buff to BP,Shadow Shot would be recommend but also making Head Shot a dps skill to sync with the dark field hopefully making up for the lost of backstab and stealth. Any buff to HS or dagger AA would be make other builds too strong.

Stealth and smoke combo field would still be here just but not that common it will still be accessible with SB+Smoke Screen,SR and Blinding Powder. It will kind of push the defense system to 3 types stealth,evasion and life siphon making the players more reliant on set skills then traits. Life siphon could be more popular on thief if Devourer and Ice Drake venom were be 30 sec CD or lower than the others ones.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sagat.3285:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sagat.3285:

silentnight warrior.2714:

MarauderShields.6830:

silentnight warrior.2714:

You dont have that problem with d/p.

Then the cooldown is 9 seconds.

Its way less than 9 seconds (the time you land your backstab till you have another one ready to be landed) but lets assume it is.

Its balanced right????

And dont forget that thiefs have multiple ways to enter stealth without using iniciative.

Multiple? If you mean SR 60 sec and Blinding Powder 40 sec then yeah it’s balanced or maybe stealing from another thief eh?

You already said three ways to enter stealth withou ini.. but there is more… keep looking

Yes there is more but the situation won’t let those happen most of the time. You do not compare damage between medium and heavy armor class here is why : The lower the armor (tough/vital) the higher the burst and the more rewarding is the sustain system is glass ele>glass thief>glass war but glass guard is closer to thief or ele because of lower HP.

The higher your base defense your ability to survive will be inferior to others immune/reflect>stealth>GS mobility/block but meditations are closer to stealth.

Well a healing skill that gives you stealth (and removes conditions) can be used really well. And a steal that gives you stealth is also very good.

I see that from another view. All classes should be able to have the same surviability rate, just using their diferent class mechanics. The thing is professions are able to fit diferent roles. You dont want a thief bunkering a point, but you would want a thief roaming.
Even if backstab have a lower damage than eviscerate, thiefs are better at that role than warriors.

Well as long as war has way more HP than guard the guard’s sustain will be superior aka blind and med. Every class will NEVER has the same sustain as long as based stats are different heavy,medium,light and base HP affect your class. Every class can choose their function even they’re not the best at it something else make up for it. Don’t like glass war vs glass thief decrease war HP and the sustain might become more rewarding will it be the same no because of armor difference.

HiS can be easily interrupted,steal evaded I’m not sure people understand the punishment we get when mistakes happen even when trying to retreat or breathe a little.

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sagat.3285:

silentnight warrior.2714:

MarauderShields.6830:

silentnight warrior.2714:

You dont have that problem with d/p.

Then the cooldown is 9 seconds.

Its way less than 9 seconds (the time you land your backstab till you have another one ready to be landed) but lets assume it is.

Its balanced right????

And dont forget that thiefs have multiple ways to enter stealth without using iniciative.

Multiple? If you mean SR 60 sec and Blinding Powder 40 sec then yeah it’s balanced or maybe stealing from another thief eh?

You already said three ways to enter stealth withou ini.. but there is more… keep looking

Yes there is more but the situation won’t let those happen most of the time. You do not compare damage between medium and heavy armor class here is why : The lower the armor (tough/vital) the higher the burst and the more rewarding is the sustain system is glass ele>glass thief>glass war but glass guard is closer to thief or ele because of lower HP.

The higher your base defense your ability to survive will be inferior to others immune/reflect>stealth>GS mobility/block but meditations are closer to stealth.

Sagat.3285:

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section.

silentnight warrior.2714:

MarauderShields.6830:

silentnight warrior.2714:

You dont have that problem with d/p.

Then the cooldown is 9 seconds.

Its way less than 9 seconds (the time you land your backstab till you have another one ready to be landed) but lets assume it is.

Its balanced right????

And dont forget that thiefs have multiple ways to enter stealth without using iniciative.

Multiple? If you mean SR 60 sec and Blinding Powder 40 sec then yeah it’s balanced or maybe stealing from another thief eh?

Alright this is not about other classes even tough they are not perfect if you have anything to say not related to the topic please create your own topic in the appropriate section. It doesn’t that thief is viable or more viable the fact is that some builds greatly outdo others the goal is to bring the others ones up not the top ones down.

People play what works and it’s narrowed down to a similar build the class diversity is in danger, thieves everywhere start to judge each other based on their choices : don’t go P/D condi it’s cheese mode go D/D it’s for real thieves what if they don’t like it? So far I only recognized 4 sets to be a threat SB,D/P,S/D,P/D and always with full Trickery.

Nobody said thief is underpowered it is lockdown. Even tough Celestial War is so far the best war build based on my opinion I still Soldier Hambow, glass canon GS, rabid , Warhorn/Shouts and other wars builds being competitive. If you believe some classes are greatly weaker than others like necro,ranger or mesmer I believe your build is too simple. Every time I see a necro complain about CC I laughed because you chose a risk that opens up freely your weakness but this is not the thread for that.

This not about thief needs nerf personally I am for improvement especialy in traps and venom no class should be encouraged to certain builds. As I stated before I am not on the broken side.

If BP was converted to dark field the initiative cost would have to be decreased, the damage output increase and possible the same for Shadow Shot. We don’t to make the fight last too long so D/P should find to make up for Backstab lost damage since we don’t want to lose class role and also mentioned before don’t forget the risk reward concept the change for light siphon should lead to more damage and the lost of stealth as well.

I agree thief escape shouldn’t be limited to SB but doesn’t mean all sets have to get that capacity. An idea would be to change Head Shot to a Unload like skill to sync with BP making pistol off-hand a viable choice and reworking the dual wielding skill of all the sets.

Keep in mind those are just suggestions there is no proof that what is posted here can be input in game. If you are displeased with the postings try to improve it this is not a QQ post this is about increasing build diversity in thief sure for some there will always be a meta but that shouldn’t shutdown other builds.

It it would have to move to Grandmaster if all those effects are added to it. Thieves are not fully reliable on utilities most rely on weapon and traits which would explain the lack of usage in full venoms and full traps but rather a mix that suits you better making the traps that effective might be over thinking. We have to make sure the thief is not too stationary and if he is it has to be worthy.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Cam Ron.4170:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Youkay.5294:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As long as there is condi duration food and dire, condi P/D will be considered ez mode by some players including me. If I bump into you in wvw and see +40% condi food, do you think I care about you having a different build than the average or the fact you have carrion instead of dire? No. I will most likely not even bother fighting you.

Going up against a build that you are not prepared to fight can lead to frustration, I know. But the solution to it is to equip accordingly.

I always pay attention to have sufficient condi cleanses with any build that I run. Increased condi duration is no problem in that case. Maybe you should try that one out yourself?

If increased condi duration is no problem for people with condi cleanses, why do you use the food then? Every single condi thief uses same food just as they use dire because with these two, P/D is faceroll to play.

So far I’ve seen only one thief on these forums actually say he plays condi P/D cos he would use anything that gives him the most advantage. Everyone else wraps the reasoning into who much the enjoy the playstyle and how fun it is. It’s simple, they want easy wins so they play condi P/D. If direct dmg was buffed today, all these players would run backstab builds tomorrow.

I will not put my time in the game to entertain anyone who chooses condi P/D.

I use P/D because its most effective for me, because I am not pro or super-skilled. I Make mistakes so vitality+toughness is great on me and soldiers gear blows on thieves. That being said, if you’re very skilled- backstab thieves are superior to p/d condi thieves in most situations. 95% of thieves, including myself aren’t good enough to make BS work better than a Dire build.

So I agree that P/D is easier, but if you’re really good Backstab has more potential. Being that you can backstab for 7k and spend most fo your time in stealth with 8 teleports, if you’re having trouble verses p/d as a BS thief, its a L2P issue (I have same issue, backstab is just harder to play).

Tl;dr: P/D isn’t stronger than backstab, it’s easier (dire +ranged). BS builds have more potential, but require a lot of skill to the point where it might seem week. I dont understand how other thieves complain about P/D- as thief is a bullkitten class in general. From the perspective of other classes permastealth BS thieves are just as bullkitten

Very skilled player is always superior to a scrub, no matter the weaponset. Note that I wrote condi P/D with condi duration food and dire. I don’t have any problem with P/D on its own. The QQ hell would fall on these forums if power builds would be given food equivalent to 8 trait points.

Actually power builds ckittene condition duration to their advantage. Bowl of sweet and spicy beans is good just most don’t take advantage like stacking weakness,chill,vulnerable especially immobilize. You don’t have to get pure stats just saying.

PopeUrban.2578:

Sagat.3285:

It seems the problem comes down the weapon set. It’s true that D/P uses stealth for it’s for it’s damage with or without SA and the initiative cost to HS through BP with no guarantee of your enemy being in range becomes annoying and most likely leading to gap close with Shadow Shot or using it to remain in stealth to survive.

Reducing or removing initiative gain while getting in stealth will affect x/D specs since CnD is predictable and heavy costing which comes down to another problem : not everyone should have to go Trickery to make for it thus justifying the initiative gain entering or staying in stealth. Glass thief has to be possible with a ideal sustain system for a medium armor class but judging the lack of AoE damage on the sets stealth seems to make up for it or forcing you to have SB for retreat in case of danger.

The dark field idea on BP can only work with a high DPS combo finisher projectile but Shadow Shot doesn’t serve that role. Another idea could be making one source of damage more rewarding then the other which should be basic : AA and the others skills. Having no CD on weapon skills is unique to us but has biased effect.

Keep in mind that the “tank” thief should still be possible as it is on any class.

This is why I reccommend changing black powder to a projectile block/dark field rather than pulsing blind. it means you can effectively use it against intelligent opponents that would walk out of it, you can add blinds to your HS for excellent finishing potential, use it to support allies and cover stomps better, get enhanced sustain from headshot or daggerstorm, and get much better mileage out of it in its intended role as a damage mitigating defensive field rather then just using it for stealths and stupid people.

Combine this with better damage on D/P 3 and you’d have a set that could be built a lot more glassy and trait either evasion or stealth and still have good sustain, and have a nice bag of support and chasing ability.

Kind of make sense I can see it working also P/P making Unload not just a spam skill. That seems to go in good direction if anyone has anything to add about that help your self. Personally a emerging problem I see is the limited cleansing. An idea I had was to make evade rewarding in Acro since I think SA is fine even tough Last Refuge can endanger you.

Traits Idea:
- Successful evade removes 1 condition 8 sec CD instead of Pain Response
-Traps gets a second charge and transfer a condition on activation instead of Fleet of Foot (Of course then knockdown form Trip Wire would be 2 sec instead of 3, 2 sec of immobilization instead of 3 on Needle Trap,increase HP but decrease damage of summoned thieves on Ambush and making Shadow Trap a double stun-breaker like Shadowstep. This way I"believe" the thief can feel rewarded having to be in melee relying on non-aoe trap. )

Then comes S/D an awkward set for having dagger off-hand but not recognized for it’s stealth attack but rather the sync with the Acro trait line or simply for evasion. From my point of view I believe removing damage form Flanking Striking and adding it to Larcenous Strike can solve many things however I have seen some S/D using SA lately.

It seems the problem comes down the weapon set. It’s true that D/P uses stealth for it’s for it’s damage with or without SA and the initiative cost to HS through BP with no guarantee of your enemy being in range becomes annoying and most likely leading to gap close with Shadow Shot or using it to remain in stealth to survive.

Reducing or removing initiative gain while getting in stealth will affect x/D specs since CnD is predictable and heavy costing which comes down to another problem : not everyone should have to go Trickery to make for it thus justifying the initiative gain entering or staying in stealth. Glass thief has to be possible with a ideal sustain system for a medium armor class but judging the lack of AoE damage on the sets stealth seems to make up for it or forcing you to have SB for retreat in case of danger.

The dark field idea on BP can only work with a high DPS combo finisher projectile but Shadow Shot doesn’t serve that role. Another idea could be making one source of damage more rewarding then the other which should be basic : AA and the others skills. Having no CD on weapon skills is unique to us but has biased effect.

Keep in mind that the “tank” thief should still be possible as it is on any class.

Youkay.5294:

We are digressing here, but building against condi dmg in no ways diminishes your defenses against direct damage. Against direct damage, you just up your armor. That’s it.

Let’s finish this off-topic here. I would really appreciate some constructive contribution.

:D wow what about blind,cc,chill,protection,weakness…

All I am saying is I don’t see P/D working without sneak attack.

It seems a certain percentage of the community believes thief is broken with their defensive system stealth and evasion. Another percentage believes thief just surprises non-experienced players.

So to end all those post of stating your minds and debating why don’t you just prove it. Those who believes the defensive system is broken what could be possibly replace stealth or evasion or anyway provide the class with cleansing,regen and sustainability which all classes should have and of course to not erase the CLASS ROLE and not being tied to any specific weapon.

Keep in mind the RISK AND REWARD CONCEPT ex: a zerker ele kills faster and has a better sustain system than a zerker war because of armor and health but a zerker guard is closer to the ele’s potential because of lower health than a war. The same applies to condition damage.

PS: I play thief and fought all of the class’ specs and so far I am not on the broken side. What you propose will not actually happen neither have more than a minimal chance of being considered.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Zacchary.6183:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Harper.4173:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Warriors are not the benchmark…Guardian is. It’s why you NEVER hear complaints about Guardian being too OP or too weak. They’re at that perfect spot.

So now people’s complaints are a exact and relevant metric to measure a class?

This makes me want to do a “study” on what class those that post Warrior QQ forums play. I have a hunch that it would be mostly Thief, they need to create a scapegoat so that they (namely S/D) doesn’t get too much attention.

“Yah! Lookit dat guy!” “Noh noh! don’t look over here, HE’S the problem!”

Look who’s calling the kettle black?

No, warrior is the most forgiving profession in this game. It has the most viability in every game mode. It has the capacity to be the best support/DPS/CC in group settings. It can also maintain good to high damage regardless of build. Let’s not forget, warrior has access to the highest damage modifiers.

Then there is thief. You have to spec for damage. You have to choose your fights. You can’t make mistakes. That’s because the profession is based on active play, not passive pillows.

So no, thieves don’t complain about warrior because they need someone else to take the blame. They do it because the least forgiving profession is pointing out a major contrast.

Active play? I have played S/D, it is stupidly passive. You repeat the same sequence of attacks while the evades act as your sustain. You’re squishier, but it’s crazy easy to escape with Shadow Step + Withdraw + SB. You can also escape from immediate danger but still provide tons of ranged damage.

Meanwhile D/P and P/D are literally both dependent entirely on stealth and are even WORSE on the repetition front.

Oh, my favorite part about your “active class” statement is how most of a Thief’s sustain is tied either to continued use of one evade skill, or they sit in stealth and PASSIVELY HEAL AND REMOVE CONDITIONS.

Pot calling the kettle black indeed. At least you see the kettle while it’s regaining and using its condition removal and its damage mitigation is tied to several skills.

Please provide us with your idea on how thief should tank,survive and cleanse and what should replace SA and Acro?

XPGAMER.7324:

Johje Holan.4607:

Just remove Shadow Arts.

remove d/d too then plz. Q.Q

Remove dagger off-hand and smoke combo fields on thief as well lol.

Youkay.5294:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

As long as there is condi duration food and dire, condi P/D will be considered ez mode by some players including me. If I bump into you in wvw and see +40% condi food, do you think I care about you having a different build than the average or the fact you have carrion instead of dire? No. I will most likely not even bother fighting you.

Going up against a build that you are not prepared to fight can lead to frustration, I know. But the solution to it is to equip accordingly.

I always pay attention to have sufficient condi cleanses with any build that I run. Increased condi duration is no problem in that case. Maybe you should try that one out yourself?

I believe what he is trying to say is if he builds prepared for conditions he will be too weak against direct damage which most people expect to encounter. It’s kind of funny in a way but I guess if you don’t run -40% duration food heavy conditions may become a problem that’s the WWW magic in action.

All non-thief players and thieves themselves hate a set of the class they don’t like. P/D just happen to be the last set you want to fight in WWW. For most honour is simple zerker period anything of the ordinary is too much #averagePerson

I’m confused on why you are using carrion and worried of your actual sustainability the main point of using a condition build is to last and stack. How is that possible with your toughness and low condition clearing even with the evades? It feels awkward not using sneak attack on p/d especially in full passive style.

Trait wise I would still go SA and Bountiful Theft over Ricochet.

Klonko.8341:

Also in the same line, ranger pet shouldnt be able to get CnD. In PvP or WvW. It leads to too much abuse.

What? Should the pet be immune to Blinding Powder too or other skills that might be abusing like siphoning health? If you’re going to have AI next to you the least counter should able to hit it.

Ropechef.6192:

Necromancer,
Ranger,
Warrior,
Thief,
Engineer,

All have abilities to use the rabid setup to great effect.

I honestly cannot answer for Mesmers.

Elementalist,
Guardian,

not as much. they just do not have good synergy with conditions. ( at least in my experience)

Thief does not go well with rabid at all. Totally agree with guard and ele until proven other wise.

Aza.2105:

Sagat.3285:

There is no equal comparison between high and medium armor classes(period). If you don’t know that by know you haven’t learn your class. The lower the armor the higher and more effective the burst but the more rewarding the sustain glass ele>glass thief>glass war. You can’t compare reflect,immunity,quick dps to stealth(www),evade to GS mobilty it’s foolish.

The same goes for conditions the lower the armor the more types and applications can they dish out necro>thief>war it’s foolish trying to make it equal since the based stats are not the same.

How would health tiers fit into this idea?

Health?HealthHealth!!

In the end it depends on your traits and gear but from any damage point of view the best come from the less armored(tough/vit) thus the idea of high risk high reward. Look at warrior low to none blind,chill,evade,teleport and AI so they’re better self-build than others and people cry about it but don’t realize the risk and reward concept. High cc and block comes from full melee with the risk of ranged death and so on.

Not idea it’s a fact guardian burst is more reliable and quicker than war because of lesser HP.

Not impossible just very awkward if you’re going pve with it use Krait Runes+Agony and Geomancy sigils added with Zeal and Amplified Wrath. Going only burn is going to take you forever but solo or control party the bleed-burn set-up works.

I wish an improvement for Radiant Retaliation like triggering per number of condition on you but not based on stacks.

There is no equal comparison between high and medium armor classes(period). If you don’t know that by know you haven’t learn your class. The lower the armor the higher and more effective the burst but the more rewarding the sustain glass ele>glass thief>glass war. You can’t compare reflect,immunity,quick dps to stealth(www),evade to GS mobilty it’s foolish.

The same goes for conditions the lower the armor the more types and applications can they dish out necro>thief>war it’s foolish trying to make it equal since the based stats are not the same.

Acrisor.8097:

AI builds can not be removed from the game. Just think about it, if those will get removed, what will 12 years old kids be playing?! People tend to forget that most money in this game come from kids, not from adults, so they have to be entertained too, and they must have competent builds too.

So are you saying AI is unattractive to adults? That’s stereotyping I want spirit weapons to be viable because it is unique play style for guard but nope some are focus on bringing down AI builds that can work because everyone has to play boring average and normal power builds(most are boring based on my opinion).

Not sure who you are but a proper answer would be that AI cannot be removed because too many traits exist for it already,three classes have it as default,mechanism AKA mesmer and ranger, role AKA necro and diversity is partially encouraged and that ‘s why we don’t just have dmg to defense builds it expends to counter-skill(confusion,retaliation,auras),condition,cc,support,etc….

Nerf this I find it easy nerf that I find it not mature enough…

insanemaniac.2456:

confusion damage has been nerfed time after time after time and still complaints abound

why does anet think it is ok to torture players for fighting? confusion and torment are toxic mechanics and cannot be properly balanced because any time they do enough damage to matter, the suffering player is gonna realize that s/he was just being punished for acting instead of getting outskilled.

What? They are other “acting-punishing” concepts like retaliation,auras and a constant immobilization form war will lead to more damage than confusion from engineer. They are not that many ways a class can produce a decent amout of one or both even a shatter condition mesmer or terromancer . Every build has a weakness it seems those are yours if you switch to more cleansing you’ll be weaker against power builds see the pattern?

I refuse to see a build countered by a one or two cleansing.

Whoah so this build works against all specs(condi,bunker….)

Venomous Aura share every venom traits 2 might stacks per venom,leeching which does not stack with multiple venoms (many just use all of it at once like idiots) plus each venom effect. If you go 4 0 6 0 4 you can have a support like build but it feels very different than other professions but not useless and doesn’t mean you have to use P/P which I think is a inferior set.

Bombsaway.7198:

The issue is that the additional stats of Celestial do not add the same value to builds. You lose quite a bit of your “main stat” for diversity, hence why one has more total raw stats.
I can’t think of a hybrid that benefits from all stats equally where focused trinkets often are 100% useful.
It is a very fair tradeoff as is.

Ele and War benefit from all the stats even healing with Water attunement or Healing Signet+Adrenal Health and condition with torment or burning is great no matter how many stacks of bleed you can apply. Add the classes ability to stack might you get your self a working hybrid.

Not every class can do that celestial is mainly strong on those two right now others it’s just meh.

cheese.4739:

Paragon.5479:

Liam McColgan.7689:

Paragon.5479:

All of them are not viable so i don’t know why u are complaining cause they can be easily countered and cause of that they are not viable in top 50 tpvp.I am afraid is l2p issue

I’m sorry but there are so many things wrong with this statement.
a) the OP is probably not top 50 therefore his opinion is valid of the broad representation of pvp who are fed up of AI builds (stop suggesting the game should be revolved around the very few elite esports heroes)
b) they are viable (maybe not top 50 but again that is such a small (maybe 0.05%) representation.

So to dismiss his post as JUST a l2p issue is elitist, snobby, and down right ignorant…
Yes they can be countered but they are an issue in the pvp scene due to their brainless passive state and they need to be fixed.

This are ur stats and that means l2p as i mentioned in previous post ty for ur understanding pal

Wins 321
Loses 308
Win percent 51.03%
Highest rank 527
Time highest rank 2014-04-04 13:00:02
In top 1000 since 2014-02-15 22:00:01
Current rank 9000
Tpvp

Wins 729
Loses 685
Win percent 51.56%
Highest rank 622
Time highest rank 2014-02-26 14:00:01
In top 1000 since 2014-02-22 21:00:01
Current rank 9000

You can always come with ur team against mine and show me i am wrong

Azrael

Aaaand so you’re either trolling or really missing the point.

A top-tier player playing an AI build may not do well compared to a top-tier player running something else (and especially when up against a coordinated team who can easily shut them down). This isn’t being argued.

At comparable skill levels below upper tiers, though – and in an awful lot of soloq, since it’s much more effective to hold points there due to lower expected levels of communication – the amount of effort and skill needed to win with an AI build is much lower than that needed for others.

They’re not viable in your bracket? Cool! You can enjoy not being harassed by them, and stomping those few people who run them and somehow get mached up against your l33t pr0 teamz.

This doesn’t mean they’re fun to play against for everyone else, or that they’re not prevalent in other matchups.

You say l2p? Sure, people should learn how to fight/kill an MM or turret Engi or whatever, just as they should learn how to counter or deal with other popular setups… why not give some constructive advice, then? Surely you have lots to say on the topic since they’re so easy to beat, and if you’ve got time to go pull someone’s stats from gw2score you’ve definitely got at least a few seconds to type something more helpful out too!

Well they should show their build so we can help them but I’m more concerned about creating more AI or rather making them viable for other classes like thief or guard.

This is not the way to go if you want to make a point. This thread is probably going to be another wall for people to put complaints on.

It’s true that pve is affected by class perception but if that prevents you from finding party ask your guild or friends this way you can easily make sure the party’s builds don’t negate each other you’ll have a higher chance of success than a random party with a zerker requirement and no prejudice.

There is lot of hope for changes going on for many things right now some are useless but others necessary.

Charak.9761:

… meanwhile my guard’s in the corner with spirit weapon and birds going un-noticed

Oh man I wish spirit weapons were viable the same for thief’s traps we need to buff those unpopular specs.

Will never happen diversity is encouraged(many like AI).

Wait you mean pew pew ranger? Lol those guys are my favorite targets after turret engi I don’t know what thieves you guys have been fighting but the pew pew end up getting stomped from my side so far only one pew pew guys manage to kill me.

He had Sick ‘Em but it’s 40 sec CD

Thief pvp population: S/D 80% (stable) ,P/D 10%(growing) ,D/P 5%(decreasing)……..

I stop seeing D/D a while ago and most D/P are not good. People play what works not what works against their counters and that shows the diversity in thief so I’m surprised seeing other P/D thieves other than me recently in pvp the other zerker are disappearing. Does that mean S/D is too good nope just means the others specs have been proving not satisfying.

Some call me bad thief for P/D usage but then I said I’m not the average thief going S/D and when was the last time they fought an other good spec…….silence… They think P/D is cheese and S/D OP and I’m like what about the other sets?? Do you recognize them?

Thief is UP right now for being locked down to certain build. I see all kinds of war,guard,ele…(too much pew pew ranger but meh). People are looking at this the wrong way the thief is the victim not you for complaining about someone making a good combo of build,trait,set and sigil isn’t that what you are supposed to do in the first place??

CobOfCorn.6352:

brb getting 2-shot by lich

Personal View: CnD+Thief Guild+Steal to remove Stability+Fear+Continue condition combo

Honestly necro is strong 1v1 I think people just limit themselves. Team fight is another thing but the other light armor classes without a sustain build are easier to kill thus stating most necros I see are not even close to having a little bit of sustain in their build.

Necro view: I’ll just DS in case I’m dying no need for blind,CC,chill or any thing that can trouble my foe. I’ll pop Plague and Lich since my stability is permanent.

Switch Contemplation of Purity for Smite Condition lower CD and good dmg, replace Master of Consecrations with Blind Exposure for more damage and a good access to vulnerability. I would recommend Sc/F-Sw/To Greatsword is sometimes slow but the retaliation and Blinding Blade is good depending on foe

Short and constant application of burn is the way to go. I’ve been trying to have a burn guardian with Supreme Justice and Amplified Wrath but the sustain is to wonder until I can make it work as well as Meditations.

Those classes are the least in need for a new condition if you know what I mean.

mPascoal.4258:

Sagat.3285:

You’re in a dead end you refuse to go s/d eva or stealth based builds but rather have p/p?!!
Try D/P 0/6/6/2/0 with Fleet Shadow or 2/6/6/0/0 or p/d 2/0/6/0/6. You got to have one of them evade or stealth choose..

Those build will not avoid the clod stares from team mates and will actually had could stares from enemies once they notice the 6 in SA
The P/D I saw in some thieves, it can work but you have to play it really well, it’s not like in WvW where you go full dire and don’t even need to dodge.

Beside P/D from what I’ve seen recently it’s just S/D. I still see D/P and S/P Thieves but S/D is far superior. This comes from personal experience too

Depends on the opposite team, the set effectiveness will depend on who you fighting not everyone is pvp is normal power build. Most power thief play high risk for a chance to quick burst but that’s why they use SB to escape and disengage without SB it would be death on many occasions.

Anything with dagger off-hand is predictable,D/P consume heavy initiative,S/P is very predictable,P/P has the poorest sustain the SB serves the purpose of getting your butt out of here before you die the same for SR who doesn’t use one of them and is experienced?

6 in SA doesn’t stop you from pvping it’s just means you are not glass canon the same with 6 in Acro partially but then again who doesn’t use stealth or SB?

Not all of them are glass >.>
I run Valor with my condition guard for might on block don’t try to remove or go defensive.
- Don’t attack and stay away from focus 5 and Shelter(Balthazar Runes)
-Evade the poison on swap it’s predictable also the dps skills 2 sec burn on VoJ is enough to maintain it.
-Keep him at range the range dps to activate burn is low even with scpeter or sword
-Try to get him by your self in many situations I use 2v1 to gain more might from dps specs
-If you are condition make your confusion and poison hit if you’re zerk keep the CC up
-Use your removal wisely the burn might still be on you when he’s downed.

You’re in a dead end you refuse to go s/d eva or stealth based builds but rather have p/p?!!
Try D/P 0/6/6/2/0 with Fleet Shadow or 2/6/6/0/0 or p/d 2/0/6/0/6. You got to have one of them evade or stealth choose..

ButterOfDeath.2873:

Serious Thought.5394:

Thieves have very minimal condition removal which means the Condition Engineer is essentially our bane of existence. However, you could http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMpwplOx7J0PNBNBt9EGeI4uGrYGaFAA-TJRJwAAOFAcfCA/KDoa/BA if you want to maximize condition removal. Not the strongest build imo, but it lets you fight Condi Engi a bit better.

Hard as it for players to accept, this game and most class based games are set up like Rock<Paper<Scissors. Thief is a rock to glass builds and boon pumpers, but becomes paper against condition bursters (assuming opponent is scissors).

Well, maybe with condition removal sigils, all traits, hide in shadows, shadowstep and sword/dagger one might be able to deal with very strong condition damage.
Actually, when i first tried i completely ignored the sigils and just went for the default ones, which was a mistake seeing they were geomancy and critical%.

About the rock/paper/scissor setup… i can’t accept it being true as any class is supposed to be able to do everything in it’s own way.
Of course every build should have a weakness, i can’t pretend to go full 4 kit engineer and pretend to have high condition removal, but i should be able to pretend to build around it with any class, facing other downsides.

Now that i think about how the fights, almost every condition was applied with projectiles or grenades or bombs. Which means i could’ve reflected the projectiles and easily avoid the explosives, thing i didn’t do at all.

Well, my hope is to become a better player and to get my hands on condition duration reduction items while playing WvW.

Well a condition engineer weakness is condition(p/d) or simply take your time before attacking while in stealth he can blow his AoE away with not hitting you I just hope you have enough damage to take him down.