Guild Wars 2

I really, really hope this is a hoax. I have to believe it’s a hoax.

Otherwise it means that they really though that Guardians needed another worthless spirit weapon. I don’t think I’ve seen even the worst player in a PuG bring spirit weapons.

Please be a joke.

Eh, I agree with what someone said about Heroes kind of undermining what Guild Wars was about.

I don’t think they would work in GW2, especially with the map caps being what they are. I would guess there would be some technical hiccups there.

Aside from that, do you really want the GW2 NPC AI being your team? Think Hodgins, Magg, Spire, etc… I think it would cause more grief than help.

I would bet steeply against them being able to run the Wisps in Swamp

Iris Ng.9845:

^ This. The dead silence of ‘I-want-to-be-carried’, or ‘I-don’t-speak-English’.

This. 100% this. Nothing makes me want to kick a PuG harder than their blatant refusal to respond.

It’s baffling really. There are 5 people in the party…I can see them. How can they think they will hide and avoid me?

I generally don’t mind if we have to fill a spot and someone is a decent player but just not highly experienced in the dungeon. I can work with that. I cannot work with a non-responder though.

@Notabot: haha well…cmon now. Staying in a winning team like that just doesn’t seem very smart :P

@OP: Rightfully so if it was labeled as a speed run or required specific criteria to be met. Hold on to your Cleric’s gear for WvW but ditch it and run DPS in PvE.

DeathPanel.8362:

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

I see you’re a pretty upset dude/dude-ette, so I won’t linger.

More prominent community members than I have demonstrated the worth of the current PvE Guardian Meta. You’ve already been linked Obal’s extensive work.

The Meta has rightfully shifted away from AH in the time since GW2 released. Lay out your facts that show otherwise or be on your way. I think you’ve done quite enough howling.

The OP is trying to get advice on builds. You seem to have a bone to pick with the Meta for whatever reason. Pick it and be done. Or lay out the buildcrafting behind your AH build that proves it is the most viable and consistent PvE build for Guardians. The onus is on you

DeathPanel.8362:

Saint.5647:

AH has some good zerg utility in WvW. Aside from that, meditations would be better to run if you are going to roam.

Now in the realm of PvE, it is problematic (especially for someone without much experience with the class). AH is a huge trait investment in a tree that doesn’t really bring any benefits to the party, and only minimal benefits to the user.

The biggest problem with AH is that it reduces your personal DPS to a level of uselessness.
-AH pushes guardians into using shouts; this can be a huge waste of their utility slots
-The actual healing of AH is not so high that it can trivialize content; in short, you will be losing health a lot regardless if you are relying on AH for your survival
-What does that mean? It means that you will keep wasting boons on keeping yourself alive, instead of monitoring the team and using them as needed. This is where you see Guardians wasting Aegis or stability for a few heals.
-Better survivability would actually be attained with more survivable armor; there is no shame in starting off somewhere.
-It betrays the user into a sense of security and feeling of usefulness. In fact, they are pushing short lived boons to their benefit and to the detriment of the team.

This has been my experience with AH Guardians. As a Guardian main, I cannot recommend this build to anyone outside of WvW.

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has. Group Stability, aegis, and protection/regen and all of them synergize with AH.

Taking AH also does not nerf your dps since your dps is mostly determined by your gear choice. Not to mention taking AH gives you an additional 30% crit damage and 300 toughness, which also synergizes with retributive precision to give more precision and therefore dps.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

Ease up killer. That isn’t quite correct. As someone else pointed out, consecrations are the best things a Guard can bring to the fight from a PvE standpoint. The one shout worth keeping on the bar most of the time is “retreat” for that Aegis rotation. If you’re not taking Wall and Condi. cleanse, you may as well not be bringing the Guardian in the first place.

The AH should build is certainly not the most “viable” or “optimal” build. It is passable if that’s what you want to run, but it isn’t by any stretch a “good build” for PvE.

At worst, you get Guardians who use their shouts to heal themselves and waste the effects when they are actually needed. At best, you just get a decrease in overall efficiency from the wasted trait points.

AH has some good zerg utility in WvW. Aside from that, meditations would be better to run if you are going to roam.

Now in the realm of PvE, it is problematic (especially for someone without much experience with the class). AH is a huge trait investment in a tree that doesn’t really bring any benefits to the party, and only minimal benefits to the user.

The biggest problem with AH is that it reduces your personal DPS to a level of uselessness.
-AH pushes guardians into using shouts; this can be a huge waste of their utility slots
-The actual healing of AH is not so high that it can trivialize content; in short, you will be losing health a lot regardless if you are relying on AH for your survival
-What does that mean? It means that you will keep wasting boons on keeping yourself alive, instead of monitoring the team and using them as needed. This is where you see Guardians wasting Aegis or stability for a few heals.
-Better survivability would actually be attained with more survivable armor; there is no shame in starting off somewhere.
-It betrays the user into a sense of security and feeling of usefulness. In fact, they are pushing short lived boons to their benefit and to the detriment of the team.

This has been my experience with AH Guardians. As a Guardian main, I cannot recommend this build to anyone outside of WvW.

Razor, I think you’re being put in the ‘casual’ boat because your understanding of stacking portrays you that way. I haven’t played with you before but your implication that stacking is a static activity is not correct from a speed clearing standpoint. It just isn’t.

Trying to build credibility by saying you’ve played since launch or have ascended armor does little here in the Dungeon forums. It’s very much experience based here and your comments toward stacking betray inexperience in speed clearing.

Now, if you’re just messing around in a dungeon and don’t care to clear it fast, you can complete it however you like. Almost all tactics are viable and you can PuG it just fine.

However, if you want fury uptime, 24 stacks of might throughout a fight, Aegis rotations, and 100% DPS uptime, stacking is the optimal tactic. This doesn’t make it brain dead by default. Missing skill rotations, utilities, and tells/dodges will put you down and kill your time.

I highly encourage any people who are ‘against stacking’ to see how it’s done outside a PuG of bads in AC. It would be good to understand it’s about synergy and not ‘stand in 1 spot and auto attack.’

Why must this sort of post rear it’s ugly head almost daily? You can always, always tell that they have never left AC.

I find it kinda sad.

Bask in the glory of Saint Nicolas Cage.

Bounties on bosses kind of already exist in the form of the chests you get but I get your meaning. You’re thinking of a gambit type system?

e.g. Reach and kill X boss in under Y time for Z reward

I think that could work. So could the loot scale for killing more enemies increases the reward at the end to compensate for the time. Although it will only be a matter of time until someone finds the perfect amount of trash to kill per path to maximize time vs effort. Still, a good thought.

Truly, gambits or ‘instabilities’ may be the best thing to add the variety folks are looking for in dungeons. This could add some progression into the existing paths as people try to accomplish them with set gambits on. That will promote build diversity much more than any lame nerf ever could.

Walling off areas like the CoF room at acolytes is a weak fix imo. It doesn’t promote any ‘better’ play. Why did we go in there? Because it’s simpler. Good groups could burn all of those mobs down if they wanted. It isn’t troublesome. Like I’ve said on other posts, it’s the PuGs that will suffer the most from this, not experienced players.

Keep the dungeons as they are and add gambits to it.
-must clear all mobs
-cannot use reflects
-cannot use aegis
-endurance recharges 75% slower
-crit damage -X%
-power -X% effective
-team is crippled every 15 seconds
etc….

The more gambits, the more loot and perhaps some sort of dungeon leveling system for a sense of progression. The higher your dungeon level, the better your loot. Sort of like an added MF booster that can break 300 MF…

Anyways. Just thoughts.

I don’t like the champ train either. I’ve done it a few times at FG but I don’t really run it.

I also don’t care if someone else runs it. It doesn’t affect the way I play. You’re a selfish troll if you want to stomp on someone else’s fun (that is doing nothing to you).

^ This. You’re better off with your team. It’s not about you. It’s about the team. If you’re burning mobs fast enough, you should be fine.

If someone goes down, they are easy to pick up in the stack too.

^ Guardian sword would be my pick. Not sure what weapons Belzebu is talking about that are more effective, but I can assure you, he is wrong.

GS whirl is solid burst with utility of pull that is useful in most parties. That said, you pretty much will be on sword fairly often.

The Spiral King.2483:

As soon as I saw the thread title I knew I was in for a good read. The lack of teamplay and synergy among classes and skills is really a major issue with this game, and needs to be addressed by adding way more skills, and rebalancing the ones we have. And please, no one better try mentioning those kittenty kitten “combo fields” as an example of teamplay. The y’re the most watered down, brain dead things I can imagine.

And yet a lot of players can’t even get those right. Some outright have no idea what they are.

I think this comes down to a threshold issue. This game is very, very easy in the open world. It’s very, very easy in casual dungeon runs. That’s all good. This ‘tier 1 content’ is completable by almost anyone in any gear, in any group composition.

So where’s the challenge? World bosses like Teq and Jungle Wurm. Racing for time in speed clears, each time trying to beat the time of the last great run you had (or the top Guilds setting records). This content cannot be completed without buildcrafting, practice, and coordination. There is a lot of a teamwork involved here.

It really comes down the threshold of content you chose to take part in. Are you content with 1-20 fractals and 30 minute dungeon runs? Do you just want to roam open world and Zerg champs and World Bosses? Yes? Then you don’t really need to do anything special and I agree, teamwork isn’t a focus in that sort of content.

Are you trying to beat a time in a speed run? Do you want to prove that X setup can beat a different Guild’s setup? Are you trying to take down the Wurm or farm Teq? If so, then teamwork should be on your agenda. If it isn’t, you’ll be failing…a lot.

The level of teamwork needed is really up to you the sort of content you take part in and the way you chose to take part in it.

Nay. I love this event. It’s one of the best things in this game.

What could be changed? A way to organize squads and guilds into instances better.

dasaybz.9524:

This elitist mentality is what bothers me most about this game. Seriously, if you have fun playing a certain class, with a certain weapon, then go for it. If synergy is soooo important to you elitist dungeon runners, whey the hell are you running with pugs in the first place. I paid just as much for this game as anyone else, and I’ll be sure to bring whatever the hell weapon I want.

Well man, frankly that word is annoying at this point. It is important to me. I love playing with folks who also love synergy. I like seeing full might stacks on our party. I like seeing fire fields blasted without a ‘retaliation’ trolling across my screen.

I think you mistake dungeon runners. We have fun doing what we do. I can’t speak for all but I can speak for my friends and say we’re a friendly bunch. Sometimes we need to take people from LFG though. It’s aggravating when randoms join without reading. To me it says they don’t care about me, my friends, or our team. They are there to get theirs and they don’t care about anything else. It wears on me to keep hearing ‘you have to this’ or ‘you have to do that’ from those sorts of people. You came to our party. We didn’t beg you to come to ours (I don’t mean you specifically).

Nah. I don’t want to take you if you are not going to play optimal setups. It doesn’t mean I hate you. I payed for this game too. Like someone else said, I may have paid more including gems. I don’t care if you take no weapons at all. Just, you know…don’t join my party.

If you don’t care about ‘synergy’ or my style of play, why does it bother you so much?

No thanks. My inventory and bank are already as clogged as they can be.

@Seera:

Yeah something similar to that. I was thinking more along the lines of it showing whatever rating was currently applicable. In WvW, the WvW rating would show predominantly but you could check other ratings too. A simple example of a helpful situation from this would be with a new commander. You could tell if they just got a tag but did nothing with it.

I don’t think it’s fool proof. Certainly not. But it would give some better metrics than the AP system. Currently the AP system doesn’t really give a great tell of how good a player is. A high AP suggests that a player should have higher skill because they have been playing for longer (played more content). However, we all know that this isn’t often the case.

I usually find my ‘sweet spot’ of good players sitting around 5-8k AP. That’s just my personal experience though so it’s not representative of anything other than my experiences. There will always be outliers to consider as well.

There will of course be people trolling the ratings like there are for any review ever but i think there would be more honest reviews than anything else. After a dungeon run, you rate the PUGs you played with. Or you can not. I think dedicated dungeon players will really police up their fellow players though.

Both account bound and character bound do have distinct benefits and problems associated with them. If it were me, I’d go with account simply because a good player is good. A good guardian may not know ele well but they can learn it faster because they already know the mechanics of the game.

@Seera, so for someone who has a lot of experience in both WvW and PvE, they should be highly rated in both. It’s really just a set of metrics.

notabot.3497:

kyubi.3620:

It does not unless your team is glassy to the point it cant take severe hit for to long or want to kill stuff by stacking. People when you stack you are theoricaly ’’facetanking’’ the targets weither you want to admit it or not and are somewhat exposed to blows you wouldnt take if you were actualy moving around. Players are supose to keep moving around to avoid hit while landing as many blow as possible but stacking actualy defy this very principe and makes for a dumber game because of it. Well i think at this point they should make all mob attack cleave in melee range.

Its stuff like this that makes me know that you really are good at talking out of your kitten .

When stacking a zerk group still dodges and uses active defenses. Its why they often stack against a wall or pillar, that way they don’t actually move when dodging. They make full use of those evade frames. They also make use of protection and aegis, in addition to blinds and other skills to mitigate or remove the hits entirely. Running around chaotically might sounds “fun” for some, but its more likely to cause unintended consequences (like moving the enemy out of a powerful rooted attack like hundred blades and the like, or aoes).

Many mobs already cleave in melee range, or use aoe spray type effects. In the stack with proper skill uses the effects of the enemy are negated. When used incorrectly, the entire stack will die in 2 seconds (sometimes less). The people that don’t realize this are leaches that stands in the stack but still benefit from the blinds/aegis/prots/interupts that the group is using.

The fact that you think that Anet actually wants people to play in only one way (moving around and not stacking, using “skill” to kite and tank or whatever your scrub definition of the proper not cheap way of winning is) and force changes to make your way of playing the only way means you are worse than the people who prefer to speed run/stack/Los who have no problem with letting the casual dungeon goer play in his own groups.

As for the other players who complain about getting kicked: You aren’t entitle to be able to join a group. There is no forced association in this game, people are free to leave and kick as they desire. Drop your entitled anti exclusionary millennial attitudes behind. If somebody doesn’t want you, don’t take it as a personal affront and justification to tattle to anet like a spoiled brat on the playground who was odd man out in making teams. Make your own groups and play by your own rules. If you continue to have problems getting into groups, check yourself. If you are running a crap build you need to change it. If you end up on the floor and get kicked, L2Play. If you are running a class that has no demand in the instance you are wanting to run, switch characters to one that is in demand. If you don’t want to change your build/class/playstyle to play with the “cool kids”, find your own group: be the group that has fun their own way, and not like the loser table that spends more time complaining about other people having fun.

Alright man. Thanks for calling it. It’s folks like Kyubi who get the kick.

I don’t usually mind taking someone who’s learning the path. Learning. Not making assumptions to justify running scrub gear and a scrub build. If you don’t know, it’s fine. Folks are there to help and mentor.

If you’re like Kyubi and #yolomode no-dodge encounters, you’re a bad player.

Almost every one of these claims about the dungeons are made regarding AC 1. Why? Because most of these trash players never make it outside AC 1.

Stacking is just the logical thing to do. What happens when it goes away? People like Kyubi stand no chance. No chance. Why? Because they don’t know how to play yet.

What happens to these ‘exploiters’ you hate so much? Nothing. Their times decrease a little bit because they have to dodge triangles around the boss and lose some DPS up-time.

Mobs already cleave in melee range :P ….that’s what Aegis is for. Not for when you feel scared but to mitigate damage on your team.

That’s all for today’s class.

AP just means you’ve been around the block a few times and played enough different content. The hope is that you may have learned a thing or two. This isn’t always the case.

I tend to stay away from anyone sub 1,000 and am leery of people with more than 10,000. That said, the best way to tell for me has been to ask them:

1. What gear setup/utilities they are planning to run and swap
2. How well they know the path

Generally, bads don’t answer. Anyone who will not answer, gets a kick. Someone who says “I am learning” can still keep a spot more often than not. We have enough solid people to carry and teach someone. We will not tolerate a scrub who refuses to even cooperate and respond (thinking somehow he will sneak by un-noticed in a party of 5).

Remember. Guardians don’t let other guardians staff.

Good. Please do move along then. I’ve said it before; achievements spoil much of this game. Used to be killing a hard boss was the achievement. These are the types of players getting carried I think. They come for their ‘cheevos’ without willing to achieve a darn thing.

Good. Please go back to Frostgorge. This is enjoyable content for some people.

Please Anet, take the ‘cheevos’ out of this game. Less achievements and ‘to do lists’ for obsessive gamers means that they can do whatever content they want without being forced to come to the Wurm or Teq for their ‘cheevos’.

Really. I want yall to enjoy what you’re playing. Or maybe have you get your achievement points in FG champ farm. I would be fine with that too. I don’t raid for achievements. I raid because it’s enjoyable to coordinate and work together with over 100 people who are just as invested as you. That’s what MMOs are about to me.

The same thing happened with WvW season 1. Achievements brought in players who didn’t care about WvW who would rather camp supply for achievements than build siege for their commanders.

Please just let these players get their achievements doing whatever it is they want. It’s already a measure of how long have you played. Just make it hour based or something. This way 50 staff guardians spamming 1 don’t feel forced to come to Wurm and spoil it for people who genuinely want to be there.

Darkoray.4570:

I’m my opinion if running a dungeon and getting kick because are using a an axe or a staff or a wand or whatever then the class is broken. What is the point in adding in those weapons or giving the ability to make those builds if everyone frowns on them and kicks you? Im realistic however and I know how it works. Just seems pointless having the weapon in the first place if know one ever using them.

I remember reading devs posts back before release. One of the things they talked about was creating content that people would only play once and never again or only if they rolled another character. That was the big thing behind there lvl limit thing in lower lvl areas.

Yet pretty much they have created that very problem here.

Your response sort of betrays your inexperience man. It tells me that you don’t know the use of each of those weapons.

People are not getting kicked because of a weapon (at least from my parties) but because they don’t know how to use what they have.

You have forks, knives, and spoons. Just because spoons are more useful when eating soup, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t make knives and forks anymore. If you come to my place to eat soup with a knife, you’re going to make a mess, and I’ll probably want you to leave. Who will put up with your inexperience with silverware you might ask? Well, a friend or guild. They will teach you how to use that spoon instead of the fork.

Let’s get back into GW2 terms here. A staff for guardian is not useless but if you’re camping it in a dungeon, interrupting fire fields with that light field, and spamming 1 and 4, then you don’t know what you’re doing. If you really want to use a staff, pop staff 4 before entering combat and swap back to your regular DPS sets, then you’re using that weapon right.

They make these ‘other weapons’ because they have a use. It doesn’t mean you should camp 1 weapon the entire dungeon though. A good player swaps and adapts. They don’t keep the same 3 utilities on the bar the whole run either.

My guess is that folks are getting kicked for this, not for being X class. If you join and you have a signet for movement speed…in a dungeon. That’s a kick. It tells me that you’re wasting an entire slot on something arbitrary. Where is that signet useful though? Open world. You just have to know what to use and where. When to eat with a spoon, and when to use a fork

That’s where the kick are coming from. Experienced speed clear parties boot someone camping staff 1, or running LB because it wouldn’t really help to tell them to do otherwise. The fact that they’re running non-applicable gear tells us that they don’t understand the content. Doesn’t matter if they start running the right sets, they just don’t get the basics. Makes sense?

That said, ask around. Experienced folks are usually willing to teach!

Most of the Guardians I see around. They of course wield exclusively staff.

This might be one of the worst posts I’ve ever read. Could it be any more full of untrue assumptions?

Dishonor? Dishonor? Really? That’s the word you’re going to use?

It’s dishonorable to set a criteria and ask people to meet it? Let’s say I want 3 more players to fill out my speed run. I post for “Speed Run only DPS gear”…someone joins with PVT gear and defensive traits. I have to play with this guy or else I’m dishonorable?

Man, I’m not about being rude or disrespecting people who join. I just have them be on their way if they didn’t read. If anyone could even get these ‘dishonor’ points it would be the people who don’t have the common courtesy to read my LFG.

Just how do you think this ‘majority’ of kicks is happening? I doubt many people are kicking just to be malicious.

Look, I definitely agree there should be no kicks allowed after a certain point without more votes cast. This would help against griefing at bosses or after being in the dungeon for a while. I think within the first few minutes of playing with someone new, you know whether you want them with you on the rest of the dungeon or not.

But seriously, this is the worst system I’ve ever heard of. Players who don’t ‘change their behavior’ will accrue ‘dishonor’ points? What a ridiculous thing to say. How about players who fail to read will accrue ‘moron’ points and won’t be able to join a party for the next 15 minutes?

Solution: LFG Tool search criteria

Potential solution/thing to discuss: Player rating system with different colors. Different ratings for different things. So a player with a high red (dungeons) rating, you know will be a good dungeon runner. He happens to have a low yellow (WvW) rating though so you know what to expect of him there.

Nat.4029:

Although I do miss being able to play a healing class for pure support, I don’t mind so much that everything revolves around DPS. What I get tired of is having to use the same weapon skills ALL THE TIME. I would love for them to do a complete overhaul of the skill system one day, and make it more like it was with GW1. Adding several more weapon skills for each weapon and allowing us to interchange the first 5 skill slots the way we want to. I think that would make a world of difference to this game.

I agree. I enjoy playing DPS in GW2 mainly because it is the most effective option for all PvE content. That said, I do miss being a dedicated tank or healer from GW1. Some more flexible skills would be nice too (on weapons)…Perhaps a couple interchangeable skills but if you do recall, even GW1 wasn’t that flexible. Sure you had many, many skills but how many of these were used. Most were not in the meta and most were only useful in a particular niche.

Anyways, I do agree though. Would be nice to have a little more variety in the skills we take with us but there are way bigger fish to fry as far as improvements to the game imo.

inb4 Nostradamus

Good idea in theory. Let’s hope they let it get fully dressed before rushing it out the door with its pants around its ankles to sell some gems or make a 2 week deadline.

Someone suggested something to solve this problem (on this forum somewhere).

The idea of an ‘underflow’ is worth looking into. I bet that at any given time, there are not too many players in Harathi Hinterlands. An ‘underflow server’ would route player in maps with X players or less, into an UF server until it hits around 50-100 (not the 150 or more). This way you would get relatively full maps at all times.

The same could be done for cities. It could give them the life that they much need (and let you meet people you otherwise would never see)!

I don’t know if it will be a good fix but shouldn’t there be some system in place for server ‘locals’ to be able to boot out guesters?

Guesting is well and good but you shouldn’t have to sit out of your own server. A second thing that would really, really help out just about everyone I think, would be to have some sort of a temporary place holder.

I don’t know about you guys, but I DC fairly often in this sort of content. I am always praying I don’t get shafted and stuck in some OF with 2 people in it. There is no hope of rejoining later. It would be nice if it held your spot for a DC for a few minutes is all.

As for the convenience items, I can see why they are not added. You are supposed to buy that with gems. Fair? I don’t know. That’s for each person to decide. It’s not really gameplay though. Buy the cons before you come I guess or have someone else buy and mail them to you. That’s just my thought on that.

But the OF issue is one to actually address imo. It is causing a lot of these problems. A real que would be nice.

Simple plot is simple. She obviously took a loan out from Black Lion. Now she wants to destroy LA.

Propose to everyone?

Ah one of these posts. It’s been too long. Almost a full day?

How is that elitist? Treating you rudely and making demeaning comments can be.

Jeromai, no one owes you anything though. No one has to take you into their party. You do not get to decide who takes you into a dungeon and who doesn’t.

Just as you want to play how you want, other people do to. Yes I can absolutely kick you if you’re not who I’m looking for.

I want an Ele with X, Y, and Z… If you join as a War with A, B, and C, I will kick you. You are not who I was looking for. This isn’t elitist. I really do not get how people think that they are entitled to control everyone else. Why should a single person have to bend to your will? You want to play a certain way? Great. Do it. You want me or my friends to play that way?

I don’t have to do that. Do not support content that forces me to play your way.

If content is instanced, you can play it however you like with however many people want to play it your way.

Not really about how casual or hardcore, it’s about how much you care to learn the encounter and not screw over the team.

There are people trying to get into your server/OF…people that care. If you don’t care, please leave and let them in.

Shufflepants.9785:

Chris RJ.1843:

Shufflepants.9785:

I think I spotted the problem, Akimbo. I think you’ve confused the word ‘achievement’ with the word ‘entitlement’.

Don’t think he did. Did you read his post?

He achieved the criteria. He and his team defeated his warden and destroyed his regulator. He also avoided getting hit by any marionette attacks.

He was unable to get the points because….someone else failed to do the same thing. Someone he didn’t know, couldn’t rely on, and couldn’t even help. I think you should check the meaning of entitlement again.

It’s like showing up to work every day and then on payday getting nothing because someone else in the office wasn’t working. These achievements are not dependent on your efforts; they should be. His problem with it is reasonable.

Oh, right, I forgot that they credit individual players for winning the world series for having the most RBI’s in a season even when their team loses every single game. Your work analogy is not applicable. Group events are failed or succeed as a group. It is more like a team sport. You don’t “win the game” when you personally score more points than any individual, you only win when your team has more points than the other team. And the OP feels like he deserves to “win the game” even though his team lost.

en·ti·tle·ment
noun
the feeling or belief that you deserve to be given something (such as special privileges)

He feels like he has a right to it when no such right exists.
That is entitlement.

Your sports team analogy is a bad one. There are tryouts for teams. For pro teams, there are drafts. Not everyone makes the team like in GW2. They are ‘instanced’ :P

Of course I would love if it were like a sports team. Are you good? Or are you willing to work hard to be good? Welcome to the team.

Are you kittenty? Are YOU entitled? Do you think you deserve anything for being a bad player who doesn’t help or care about the team? No spot for you on the team then.

This. Really, really this. Finished dungeon tours? Time to click for 10 straight minutes on all your luck.

Or salvage and click mid runs…Should be mass salvage or activate options.

Hayashi.3416:

People just keep blaming classes because they don’t want to take responsibility for:

A. Their inability to employ mathematics for buildcrafting.
B. The inability to search for/listen to people who can do A.
C. Their lack of skill.
*D. They don’t want to blame bad players for being bad. Partially because that looks more offensive, partially because someone they want to suck up to may be one of those bad players.

And when 80% of people bully the bespectacled freckled kid in the corner, most people joining will bully the same kid, not find a new target.

It doesn’t change the reality about the class, it simply reflects the lack of intelligence on the side of the bullies. Don’t worry about it too much. If the class sucks it sucks whether or not people hate on it. If it doesn’t it doesn’t whether or not people hate on it.

Not entirely true. I’ve been saying for some time, the problem isn’t classes, it’s bad players. However people flip their lids over this.

It ‘reeks’ of elitism, I’m told. These events are being spoiled for all of us by ignorant, lazy, and horrible players who don’t know the basics of the game. I was stuck 2 manning a warden with a great player who was a Ranger. We did fine. No problem. Didn’t bother rezzing the other players once they went down for their second time.

Those bad players are the problem there. This is a team event. Contribute or leave please and let a motivated player get into the server. We are willing to teach and work together. That’s what an MMO is about. If you’re lazy and ignorant, you deserve nothing…no reward, no victory, no achievement, and no spot on the team.

The thing is, those are available options to look things up if you are unaware. People are not failing because they don’t know these encounters. They’re failing because they don’t know the basics.

Like others here have said, they don’t know how to dodge or do any damage.

Anchoku.8142:

Chris RJ.1843:

Population certainly has something to do with it. Demographics do to though. If you were a core guild of hardcore players and you decided you wanted to tackle some difficult content, who would you want with you?

Players who are willing to listen and learn, players who adapt their builds, players who coordinate?

Or players who don’t care about the team, players who do whatever they want and expect rewards for doing nothing?

It’s not about casual vs hardcore. It’s about lazy and ignorant gamers ruining things for people who care. Don’t know the content? Don’t care to learn it? Then you won’t be carried.

This is why these guilds and servers move players to places where they are more likely to find like minded players. Why endure the nightmare of trying to coordinate a server with more than 40% players (just making up numbers) who don’t care to communicate, rehearse, or even rebuild for the Wurm fight? It’s not fair to the players who are putting in the time (or to the players who don’t have the time but are willing to learn and try).

This is carp because it is about which server you are on. Events that require, or allow, more than 2 or 3 groups become a statistical study on the population.

No…this is a carp.

Do tell me though, what exactly are you trying to say here.

It’s not really rangers. It’s just ignorant players that ruin the experience for everyone. Don’t know the encounter? That’s fine. Don’t know the basics of the game? That’s not fine.

There are players who can teach you. There are online guides. There are a lot of in game clues too (like AOE to avoid, boss description under the name, etc…). Some of it does take trial and error but luckily there is a server full of people willing to educate you.

Again, the trouble is the group of ignorant players who don’t care. They want their achievements.

“I want to kill Warden 1 but I don’t want to go behind him”

“I want to kill Warden 2 but I don’t want to kite him”

“I want to kill Warden 3 but I don’t want to dodge his attacks”

…etc…

No, the trouble is not Rangers. I ended up having to 2 man a platform with a Ranger because the 2 Wars and 1 Ele we had were on the floor more than a common rug. We did alright with just the two of us. He (or she I guess), was adaptive and quick. They changed their playstyle the second they realized that rezzing these guys would just have them back on the ground again. This is an example of a smart player, that knows their class, and knows the game.

These are the sorts of players that are fine even if they know nothing about the event when they enter the server. These are the players that can learn.

Population certainly has something to do with it. Demographics do to though. If you were a core guild of hardcore players and you decided you wanted to tackle some difficult content, who would you want with you?

Players who are willing to listen and learn, players who adapt their builds, players who coordinate?

Or players who don’t care about the team, players who do whatever they want and expect rewards for doing nothing?

It’s not about casual vs hardcore. It’s about lazy and ignorant gamers ruining things for people who care. Don’t know the content? Don’t care to learn it? Then you won’t be carried.

This is why these guilds and servers move players to places where they are more likely to find like minded players. Why endure the nightmare of trying to coordinate a server with more than 40% players (just making up numbers) who don’t care to communicate, rehearse, or even rebuild for the Wurm fight? It’s not fair to the players who are putting in the time (or to the players who don’t have the time but are willing to learn and try).

I think there is a lot of fear involved in this that’s driving some of these responses. Again, DocMed, I gotta agree with you and many of the posters in this thread.

Instancing would certainly be the way to go in this. The most fun I had with the Wurm content was this weekend with TTS and assorted guests in our OF. As you know, the point isn’t to hog an OF and be ‘eliteist’. The goal is to defeat these pesky bosses! The more players that can learn, the better!

Now, the casual gamer should not feel they are being alienated. I myself only get to play a few hours a week as it is. There is something here to understand, there is a world of difference between a casual gamer and a bad/ignorant player. A bad player does not understand the basic mechanics to the game and is unwilling to learn.

Some of the most fun I’ve ever had in this game was killing Teq when it was a new thing and attempting the Wurm this weekend. We got closer and closer on each attempt…and you know what? Nearly everyone was on TS, everyone was listening intently to commanders and party leaders, everyone had a role, everyone was being relied on.

People were joking, having fun, talking strategy, rehearsing…it was a great time. This is what these events are about. You know who ruins these events? Certainly not a player doing this for the first time. Everyone has to start somewhere.

People who ruin these events are the 5-10 people who refuse to listen, refuse to communicate, refuse to help, refuse to run skills to contribute, destroy field stacks, refuse to bring consumables, etc… These are the people who ruin these events. You get 150 (?) players on a map. That’s it… There is absolutely no reason to tolerate a percentage of that limit you have being wasted by someone who doesn’t care about the team.

If you are coming into a server full of people willing to work for the team goal, with the mindset of just leeching achievements, turn your kitten around and leave the server. Your slot could be filled by someone who wants to be there.

That’s my thoughts on instances. The only reason I support the idea of it is because I really don’t think that it would encourage gross elitism in this sort of content. I think it would just exclude players that don’t care. As with anything in life, if you don’t care, you don’t deserve (anything).

Kargath.6598:

Every one should be able to complete Every single event playing which ever way they want period. " that was the motto of the game when it was released" where is this “hardcorism” coming from. More stuff like worm comes out more elitists appear that give this game a horrible name, stigma and pollute map chat that make my head hurt. What if you don’t have a guild of 400 people? what if your server constantly overflows and you cant get every one in the guild on the event in order to do it together? What happened to that – “doing things together”? now we are constantly split apart from each other by overflows and elitist flamers – which by the way have turned these forums into a cesspool of idiocy. People guest bomb servers that are successful and abandon their own home server. Before guesting went in people actually learned events and tried harder, now = “why bother i’ll just ride Blackgates coattails”. This needs to be addressed imo Guesting to other servers to mooch content kills and creating content for “hardcore” players is destroying this game.

And before you flamers start flaming, I like the new content i enjoy it and i enjoy the harder events, I got 3600 hours played and 3 legendaries crafted and a wolf rank in spvp i don’t consider myself a casual but i don’t think there should be “hardcore” some stuff should be difficult but not inaccessible to public.

Just looking out for the little guys

Hey man, I think your post is an excellent one to reply to and I hope it gets the right message across. DocMed had a great post above as well about players flooding servers with sub standard builds.

Now, as I said in my post at the top of the thread, everything in this game is doable by anyone. The Wurm is no exception. The Marionette is no exception. I will grant that they should be level 80 but I doubt that’s the concern. The reason these events are not being completed is because of these OF flooders and server rushers who are just coming for easy achievement points.

The last Wurm attempt I had was this weekend when I had time to play. TTS was running it all afternoon and we were doing better and better on each run. It was exciting, it was fun, and it brought everyone together. Yes, an OF was created (and not everyone on there was TTS) but almost all of those people were on TS or listening intently to commanders and party leaders on what to do.

Some players were still running cleric of healing and whatnot of course but they listened. They listened and they learned. Maybe next time 10% of those players will bring DPS gear. Next time after that 25 %… etc… There is improvement, there is learning, and there is cohesion.

When you compare it to random people who rush to a server for easy achievements you see the inexperienced players who don’t even know the basics of their class or the game as a whole. With these sort of players, you have no chance at all of beating the Wurm. If your server is full of these players, you will have to find a way to get them on the right track. That is the only way. The hard cap will not make it possible to carry this many players who “play how they want”.

For this reason, I’m very much in support of private instances for raid content. Not for the sake of alienating casual gamers. I myself only can play a few hours during the work week. I think it’s for the sake of enjoying content without being hassled by people who just do not care.

If you don’t care about the team, if you don’t care about working together, if you don’t care about what someone more experienced has to say, you don’t deserve to reap any rewards. There is a world of difference between the aforementioned ignorant player and a new or casual gamer. If you don’t know but are willing to listen, to learn, to adapt, to communicate, I find it hard to believe that any team would cast you out. There are a lot of great people with experience who are amazing at this game. Just because there are a few kittenheads out there, doesn’t mean no one will stop to help you learn.

The trouble comes with people who don’t know and don’t care. It’s at that point that I get frustrated. If you don’t care, then you need to get out of this server and make room for someone else who does.

Spot on Manijin. I think a distinction really should be made between casual gamers and BAD gamers. I never really thought of it before but the introduction of this content by Anet could indeed raise the overall skill level of the population.

Still, content like dungeons and these raids are accessible to every single player. The “play how I want” debate arises from willingness to learn the game not willingness to grind I think.

I have about 2-3 hours to play during the work week and a bit more on the weekends. I’ve been speed clearing for a while now; dungeons and fractals both. I think your skill in this game comes down to a basic understanding of the underlying mechanisms. Past that, each encounter is a tweak to that basic foundation.

I’ve never booted a player for non ascended gear and neither has anyone in my group of clearers. We do however boot for players who cannot stack might, lay worthless fields, bring substandard gear, do not use utilities to help the team, ignore their class basics, and fail to gear for DPS. Why? Because once the game basics are learned, the focus should be placed on these finer points.

I think a big reason events like these are failing is because they are revealing a large chunk of players that cannot play yet. They got to 80 pressing 1 and spamming their skills without any purpose. These players are interrupting stacks, not using DPS gear or boosters, dying and not WPing, not using utilities to raise team DPS and survivability.

I don’t know Anet’s official stance on this but I think this content is a wake up call to these players. If a server can only hold 150 players, each player needs to bring their A game. We wouldn’t take 2 crappy players into a fractal . Why take a 30 crappy players to the Wurm?

The phenomenon of OF instancing is a result of these players that do not know the basic game and refuse to learn. If this sort of content continues, I hope to see a change in these gamers. Then perhaps instancing OFs will not be necessary.

No way. Now a large scale instance, I would be very much in favor of. Think an OF size, 150-200 man instance to take down an elder dragon.

That would be great. You can take who you want. You don’t have to worry about losing your spot on a DC. Guilds and friends can coordinate skills and strategize. This way, they can make these events really, really challenging and test player skill without handicapping groups with AFKs and terrible players.

Yes but your clones will be:

-full cleric staff guardians that spam 1 and stand still to use 4
-pet rangers and necros who don’t care to control their pets
-shoutheal warriors
-unable to dodge and on the floor more than the average rug