Guild Wars 2

Swagger.1459:

Seera.5916:

Swagger.1459:

@zaelex

Nothing of what I mentioned is “pay to win”, these are all convenience and fast track items.

Let’s look closer.

Swagger.1459:

-Sell lvl 80 boosts and individual tomes of knowledge.

Level 80 boosts are already an item in the xpac. Tomes drop frequently. A new player can level to 80 by crafting… nothing “pay to win”, it’s just more of a convenience. WoW offers lvl 100 boosts and that game seems to be doing just fine.

-Map completion packs, per character only.

Having to unlock waypoints is a complete annoyance to a lot of players, and having this convenience, per character, would be welcome. Nothing “pay to win”.

-Sell each booster individually and in packs.

Nothing “pay to win”.

-Race change. This would work really really well coupled with having dwarves as a playable race.

Nothing “pay to win”. WoW and Swtor seem to do just fine with this cash shop feature.

-Sell laurels and various in-game currencies.

I see nothing wrong with players being able to supplement certain currencies through micro-transactions, particularly when I can buy the main currency (gold) for cash to gem conversions, and then buy anything on the tp and many of the materials I need for top level armor and weapons. Let’s not forget about gem store generation 1 legendaries… Buying currency is not “pay to win”, it’s a " pay to bypass some time gates and grind" for players.

-VIP monthly sub with perks.

Lots of games have this and are doing just fine. Again, not “pay to win”.

I’m not going to go into some big discussion about quarterly reports and top grossing mmos, but there are lots of games earning way more than gw2 that have these types of items (and more) for cash… Those game companies are then able to update and improve their game more frequently because they have the finances to do it…

Not directing this comment to you, but I just wanted to say that anyone who doesn’t want anet to improve their resources should not ask for game improvements. Developing this game is not free and you can’t expect anet to improve their game without the necessary $.

No one is saying that what you put is blatant P2W. But the end game is skins and you need map completion to generate legendary weapons so buying map completion could be seen as indirectly P2W.

As for the subscription as soon as they cross the line with regards to P2W, then there would be major problems.

I can buy all gen 1 legendaries in the matter of minutes and most skins off the tp. I can buy most mats for crafting most things… You tell me what I “win” against other players when all players can still earn those items through time and/or game earned gold?

I’m pretty sure an optional VIP subscription would be devoid of giving players the ability to be immortal and 1 shotting players in pvp, raid bossses and dragons…

You get it sooner. You get to devote your time to other things and get more non-buyable rewards than them, such as AP, limited time only items that come from drops in a festival that aren’t sellable on the TP, etc.

Swagger.1459:

@zaelex

Nothing of what I mentioned is “pay to win”, these are all convenience and fast track items.

Let’s look closer.

Swagger.1459:

-Sell lvl 80 boosts and individual tomes of knowledge.

Level 80 boosts are already an item in the xpac. Tomes drop frequently. A new player can level to 80 by crafting… nothing “pay to win”, it’s just more of a convenience. WoW offers lvl 100 boosts and that game seems to be doing just fine.

-Map completion packs, per character only.

Having to unlock waypoints is a complete annoyance to a lot of players, and having this convenience, per character, would be welcome. Nothing “pay to win”.

-Sell each booster individually and in packs.

Nothing “pay to win”.

-Race change. This would work really really well coupled with having dwarves as a playable race.

Nothing “pay to win”. WoW and Swtor seem to do just fine with this cash shop feature.

-Sell laurels and various in-game currencies.

I see nothing wrong with players being able to supplement certain currencies through micro-transactions, particularly when I can buy the main currency (gold) for cash to gem conversions, and then buy anything on the tp and many of the materials I need for top level armor and weapons. Let’s not forget about gem store generation 1 legendaries… Buying currency is not “pay to win”, it’s a " pay to bypass some time gates and grind" for players.

-VIP monthly sub with perks.

Lots of games have this and are doing just fine. Again, not “pay to win”.

I’m not going to go into some big discussion about quarterly reports and top grossing mmos, but there are lots of games earning way more than gw2 that have these types of items (and more) for cash… Those game companies are then able to update and improve their game more frequently because they have the finances to do it…

Not directing this comment to you, but I just wanted to say that anyone who doesn’t want anet to improve their resources should not ask for game improvements. Developing this game is not free and you can’t expect anet to improve their game without the necessary $.

No one is saying that what you put is blatant P2W. But the end game is skins and you need map completion to generate legendary weapons so buying map completion could be seen as indirectly P2W.

As for the subscription as soon as they cross the line with regards to P2W, then there would be major problems.

zealex.9410:

Greener.6204:

zealex.9410:

Greener.6204:

zealex.9410:

Greener.6204:

zealex.9410:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

zealex.9410:

Rawr.9467:

Greener.6204:

zealex.9410:

If that was the case ppl would sell their gems in the tp.

They do. It’s called the Currency Exchange. It’s the portion of the game where gems are sold by players to other players.

To expand what I typed above:

1. Player X gives cash to Anet to get gems. <— Anet profits right here.
2. Player X trades gems to Player Y for gold. <—Anet doesn’t care what happens; they already made profit.
3. Player Y spends gems on things. <—Anet doesn’t care what happens; they already made profit.

yes i said that above that when ppl buy gems with gold the ratio of gems to gold also goes down meaning that for x gold you will need more gems compaired to a time where theres no popular release and vice versa correct? My issue with that is that anet will make more profit that way from only ppl that buy gems to turn into gold on a non release date since someone who buys gems to buy stuff directly from the gemstore pays a fixxed price and ppl who exchanged gold for gems for the bunny ears didnt play any real money they indirectly just raised the gems to gold racio right?

Maybe if you think of it this way:

ArenaNet profits from more than one kind of currency.

Player X uses rl cash (a currency) to buy Gems. Player X then sells the Gems to you (through the currency exchange) for your time (which some consider worth rl cash) acquiring Gold. ArenaNet profits from the rl cash, but also profits from a well-populated game (that’s you and others that spend their time (another valuable currency) in-game.

yes but in that system wouldn’t having the lw episodes by putchaseable throight the genstore only make more profit for anet since ppl buy with thems and gold mostly gold gem value goes up ppl exchange gems for gold. And anet makes more money which can go to a more content heavy expac as well as more balance patches changes to game modes etc

Let’s run through your scenario and we’ll see how everyone ends up at the end.

1. Player A pays 16€ to Anet to get 1280 gems.
2. Player A sells 1280 gems to the Currency Exchange and gets 206 gold.
3. Player B sells 304 gold to the Currency Exchange and gets 1280 gems.
4. Player B buys Living World Season 2 Complete Pack for 1280 gems.

• Anet gains 16€.
• Player A loses 16€ and gains 206 gold.
• Player B loses 304 gold and gains Living World Season 2 Complete Pack.

Gems are just the medium of exchange which allowed all of this to happen.

isnt that extra money anet would get on top of the current exchanges that happen? and extra 200~ gold for player A.

No. Anet has nothing to do with the Currency Exchange. The Currency Exchange is a player market – like the Trading Post – where players trade gems and gold with other players. Anet made 16€ when the gems were created – that’s it.

I don’t know what you mean by “extra 200~ gold for player A”. Player A spent cash, and in the end got 200 gold which came from other players like Player B.

stay with me now these are extra money he spend to buy gems when the lw pack went in the gemstore and from that he got 200g and anet got 16 euro or w/e that money the player A because gems had high value because the new episode was gemstore unlock and ppl payed gold for gems for it.

I cannot stay with you because: a) You don’t bother to use any punctuation, so your thoughts cannot be followed; b) You put the 16€ in the middle of the story instead of at the start of the story.

Anet gets cash before anything else. After Anet gets cash, players can trade gems with other players. The cost of gems from Anet doesn’t change. The cost of the Living Story doesn’t change. Therefore, any time a Living Story is purchased with gems, Anet has already made 16€.

Anet has everything to do withnthe currency exchange since they are the ones who provide gems in the first place. What im saying is that lw packs give more oportunities for anet to get rl money and give the buyer gems and the buyer gt more oportunities to trade those for gold. My whole point is that. the. lw pacs. creates more. opporunities for these curency exchanges and therefore more money for anet.

Or it could up netting ANet less money as more people decide to no longer play the game because they now have to pay for something that they had been getting for free. People who don’t play, don’t buy gems.

zealex.9410:

clouldn’t it make it so your ps resets whe you swap race?

Any time they’ve messed with the personal story, they haven’t been able to do so without major glitches, including not being able to progress in the story. The personal story is so hard coded into the game, it’s hard to change without causing problems.

Just look at the thread about the personal story readjustment.

zealex.9410:

Seera.5916:

zealex.9410:

OriOri.8724:

zealex.9410:

stop acting like optional subscriltion is the mother of all issues if they handle it correctly and keep it optional and not something that alienates the player who doesnt use it i dont find a reason for it to nost exist esp now that thentop mmos have some kind of subscription whether its optional or mandatory. Also anet has been really careful on what could give advantage to someone and they have not added it into the game what makes you think an optional subscription could bring that.

Even when such subscriptions start out benevolent, they don’t last that way. If implemented it will be one of the worst things ANet could do for the game.

U got proof of this? because i can think of 3 games that have a subscription model either optional or mandatory which are the biggest mmos at this time.

How many of them started off with no subscription at all?

It’s one thing to go from mandatory subscription to optional subscription or starting off with an optional subscription.

But there would be major backlash if they added an optional subscription to this game at this point. Like there was when Ascended was added. How damaging to the game it would be would depend on what was in it and how much it was.

u gotta thing long term tho and subscription doesnt have to be the only option anet can simply start giving less thing for free less free updates etc im not talking about raids fractals and such but if lw updates were b2p by default that would make a strong income for anet.

That’s the thing. We currently get everything for just the price of the base game/expansion pack. To now go and say that you now have to pay for the future whatever, would cause a pretty negative backlash.

Because we’ve come to expect content to be given out for free or included with the price of the base game or expansion pack. And when expectations are not met, problems come up.

The game survived the Ascended armor backlash just fine. So I’m not saying that adding an optional subscription or changing LW seasons to be paid DLC for all would be a game ending decision. I don’t have the information to make that call. I just know that it would cause backlash on the scale of the Ascended armor being added to the game backlash.

zealex.9410:

OriOri.8724:

zealex.9410:

stop acting like optional subscriltion is the mother of all issues if they handle it correctly and keep it optional and not something that alienates the player who doesnt use it i dont find a reason for it to nost exist esp now that thentop mmos have some kind of subscription whether its optional or mandatory. Also anet has been really careful on what could give advantage to someone and they have not added it into the game what makes you think an optional subscription could bring that.

Even when such subscriptions start out benevolent, they don’t last that way. If implemented it will be one of the worst things ANet could do for the game.

U got proof of this? because i can think of 3 games that have a subscription model either optional or mandatory which are the biggest mmos at this time.

How many of them started off with no subscription at all?

It’s one thing to go from mandatory subscription to optional subscription or starting off with an optional subscription.

But there would be major backlash if they added an optional subscription to this game at this point. Like there was when Ascended was added. How damaging to the game it would be would depend on what was in it and how much it was.

The only one being dismissive is you. You’re dismissing the help others are trying to give in trying to route out other possible causes of the problems you’ve posted about. So your comment about being dismissive helping nobody goes both ways.

No one’s saying that you haven’t had the problems you’re saying. Just that you’re exaggerating on how long the adventure is open for and that there may be reasons other than bugs that you’re having the issues you’re having.

And it could be that there are bugs that a few people run into but it’s not easy to reproduce on ANet’s side the conditions that cause the bugs. Have you submitted any bug reports in game?

zealex.9410:

what part of this is your question?

Probably just accidentally set the post as a question. It happens from time to time.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

thrag.9740:

That seems like a lot of effort and ultimately it just recylces content. I’d much rather see new fractals developed.

How about new Fractals that offer an alternative path towards Legendary Armor, personally I don’t give a crap because the financial expenditure to make 6 Legs seems mind boggling.

This way each game mode keeps their exclusive skins, and content while the red headed unwanted classes can chill in Fractals while still having their own path to the armor that they paid access for while expecting the same path way for the Weapon Legs.

I’d be fine with that. Unique skins for unique methods of acquisition. Just as long as they use a fractal only currency – I suggest using one of the already existing currencies for fractals.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

I’m not going to take the bait here folks, I will how ever point out that I’m not the one saying anything defensive or hostile.

I haven’t seen anyone accuse you of saying anything defensive or hostile, so where is this coming from?

And I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say anything defensive or hostile, so not sure why you’re accusing others of saying defensive and hostile things.

As to the topic, you still haven’t pointed out any logical reason for ANet to give out raid rewards to content that is not raids. So can you elaborate on that, please.

The only thing that should give the rewards of doing a raid is the raid itself.

BrotherBelial.3094:

It’s simple why I’m talking about this. If you can’t tell you’ve messed up your rotation, then you are not paying attention. This is not Wow where you can have over 20 skills to think about using. You have 10. That’s it. 10 skills to use at the right order and remember to dodge. Why on gods green earth do you need a 3rd party program to know you messed up? You don’t really. People want DPS meters to point fingers. That’s all they are good for in GW2. Once you know your class and know the rotations, nothing changes. As long as your constant with your skill activations you can’t go wrong.

If for what ever reason you do mess up. You will know it. You really don’t need a DPS meter to tell you that unless you like to lie to your self.

It tells you how much you messed up the rotation by. The farther away from the theoretical DPS, the more mistakes you likely made.

If you’re theory crafting a team composition for a static guild run, it can let you know if this iteration was better than the other. Of course, multiple runs would be necessary to ensure that it wasn’t just mistakes being made (or at least enough to rule out fluke perfect run and fluke horrible run).

If you’ve got 1 spot left in a static group for raiding, it can give you one tool to decide who to let in if you’ve got more than one person wanting in. Just DPS alone shouldn’t be the end all be all, but it should be factored in.

And those are just off of the top of my head. I’m sure those that use them for non-toxic reasons can give more examples of how they can be used for non-toxic purposes.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Chris McSwag.4683:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Fatalyz.7168:

Oldirtbeard.9834:

…How about watching videos by Nike where one glibs comment in a video about patch balance takes a whole class like Necro’s and throws them away because of META Hive Minders.

Why must you vilify people that want to run a specific composition that you are against or think that people shouldn’t follow? Is it so hard for you to find a group of people that think the same as you, about what is acceptable in a raid and run with them?

There seems to be ample room for middle ground, and for everyone to find like minded people to play with. It seems the best suggestion, instead of trying to excise an entire community base or at the very least constantly complaining about them.

When meta thought excludes whole classes how could you not expect resentment?

If only there was a way for people that wish to include everything could make a group, really a shame they can’t /s. Man if you spent the half of the time making an lfg group that is inclusive rather than whining on the forums that everyone else should do it, I bet you’d be far less salty. But of course, it’s easier to complain that others should do something than do it yourself

Actually it’s called ‘debating’, you see by referring to me as whining it shows you have a complete lack of respect which evidently makes you incapable of seeing other people with differing opinions eye to eye; it’s unfortunate because clearly I’m not the one in this discourse showing a weakness here.

That’s the thing, you can’t expect ANet to be able to come up with the perfect balance that let’s each class have a spot in the raid meta. Way too hard to do that given the other game modes ANet has to consider. So there will always be a class or few classes that aren’t in the meta at any given time. Yes, it stinks when that class is your main.

Not being meta does not mean that that class will never be able to raid, you just have to put in a little more work to play on it or be willing to play on an alt for that content.

jojorne.2175:

@Seera, you saying that if an event is completed fast a shadow could stay behind? If so, for how long?

I’ve never seen any event leave a shadow behind. What do you mean by shadow?

Three things could be happening:

1. Compass is pointing to an event that’s not actually there. This is very rare and is typically only related to the seasonal events.

2. The event is there, but by the time you get to the location, the event is over. This is likely what is happening, especially if the zone is a low level zone and/or the zone the Daily Events is located in.

3. It’s a Stabilize the Rift event. See above link.

If you want more specific help to figure out what the issue is, you’re going to have to go into more details. What maps, what areas, when, etc.

RandomWolf.3986:

A full-DPS set will give you a hard time. If you like being easily crushed, go with it.

I don’t like being easily crushed. I’m wearing a full-DPS set. I rarely have a hard time due to my gear.

Jubilant.7280:

“If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.

My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea. "

And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.

I’m not going to contiguously beat the thread that’s already dead. It’s really easy to criticize ideas when you’re not the one presenting it. I have actively tried to shape my initial idea as the thread progresses, but your chastising me consistently and expecting me to implement “your” ideas and if I don’t, you resort to a personal attack. I appreciate your opinion on how both sides should respect each other to engage in a more active gaming community and I have given you my personal opinions on that. Thank you for taking the time to be my devil’s advocate, but I will engage in enacting my personal agenda on my own terms.

P.S. – Idk how to quote so forgive me.

Not meaning to come of as personal, but your thread’s title and post came off as either someone toxic trying to split the community so they don’t have to be around those they don’t like at all or someone intentionally trying to stir up drama for drama’s sake.

Based on your other posts, I doubt you were meaning to come off either way. And I’m sorry that that didn’t get conveyed in my last post properly. I’m not trying to say that you’re toxic or just looking to start drama.

As for quoting, when you start removing quotes it can get a bit of pain to make sure you’ve got the correct quoting tags.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.

For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.

I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.

IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)

How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.

Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.

You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.

I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.

I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)

If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.

My original thread was to insinuate a solution to my frustration by instigating controversial topics. I’m sort of happy the direction of this thread went because it prompted me to think of new ideas and how to best alleviate the position I am in. I won’t create a new thread, but I’ll be stalking other threads related to this and occasionally bringing up this idea.

And all it does for me is make me want to say no to your ideas because all I’ve seen you suggest is add things that are more toxic to the game or ignore your posts as you want to start drama for drama’s sake (which is the bad kind of drama). But that’s just me.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.

For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.

I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.

IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)

How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.

Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.

You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.

I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.

I’m doing this by creating and commenting on similar posts like these to elucidate more on this subject. I’m sure some guild leaders scour the forums often so by doing this and interjecting my advice frequently, eventually it may cause a shift. It’s minuscule chance and most likely going to take an extensive amount of time, but I hope being more engaged in the community, this idea would be implemented and cause a shift in perspectives. (For example, AB MM VIP vs AB MM anchors type of thing). DPS meters would be very helpful in vetting out those adamant Casuals and those willing to adapt and learn and improve. (It’s not necessary but still a very useful tool)

If that was your goal, then you needed a different title and first post for this thread, because that goal was not conveyed at all in your thread. Your first post and title comes off just as toxic as the behavior you’re trying to remove from the game.

Jubilant.7280:

I’m providing my personal anecdote for those who have a strong desire to want to get into raids to prove that the challenging barrier set by Anet can be overcome and my attempts to get people specifically in guilds to get more interested in raids have failed many times and often leaving a distaste for tackling raids because of “Casuals” don’t have the synergy and don’t want to follow metabattle.

For example, some people are willing to adapt to the meta but some don’t want and since they’re in a guild, they’re more than likely wanting to avoid causing strife. So they don’t tackle raids as a guild but a few of those that want to try to PuG and when they try again to encourage their guildmates to participate, those that don’t want to follow the meta view those that did with distaste and jealousy for not being able to obtain the same progress as them.

I want Casuals, the ones that don’t like following meta and expecting to progress in raids without synergy to be kept separate from the raiding community. Like, putting on LFG “boss, LI req or KP” and then if they have neither, ask for a gear check and skill check to confirm they at least have the correct gear or skill traited to learn the boss mechanics. If they don’t and don’t want to change, then simply kick them because they are not worth the effort and doing this multiple times may increase the amount of toxicity within the GW2 community, especially veering away the Casuals adamant about not changing their builds (skills + gear + traits) for best synergy in the squad, but at the same time it also helps filter out the few people that want to do raids and are willing to learn/contribute towards the squad.

IMO, this has already happened and I’m only trying to give it more light and hope that the guild leaders of raiders lower the requirements for joining their raid guilds to help promote encourage new raiders to join and learn. (Like, not having 5boss kill requirement but rather have a snapshot of the bare minimum dps check for certain professions or perma upkeep with alacrity)

How do you propose this is done? ANet can’t add anything to the game to check for that. Just because a player has X, Y, and Z doesn’t mean that they are open to learning and ready for criticism when they mess up. A player who doesn’t have all of X, Y, and Z may be willing to learn.

Players do a good job of keeping themselves separated. You can’t for players not ready to learn to learn and you can’t force raid guilds to change their requirements.

You can only start your own training raid guild or try to get your own raid guild to allow for lower requirements.

I’m sure raiding guilds know that they are excluding possible great raiders due to their requirements but they have to put the line somewhere to exclude as many who just wish to be carried as possible.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

I’m just gonna point out the fact that the “you get one shot anyway even in valkyrie gear” is bullkitten.

I’ve been using both valkyrie gear and berzerker gear all along. Open world is my thing, and in open world it’s impossible to avoid damage, either because of there being too many AoE’s around you or because of there being too many people around for you to event see attacks coming in your direction.

In Valkyrie, on my main class which is Engineer, I often find myself running around with less than 5k HP left due to having tanked a few hits here and there, and almost always find a way to heal myself and keep going.

Every one of those times I was running around with 5k in Valkyrie, I would have been downed in Zerk, wasting other people’s time while not doing any damage myself. I know this is true, because I tried both and I know how both work.

You can say “oh but with enough skill you can survive”, nonsense, everyone gets downed once or twice in open world, or even killed, in open world it’s not a matter of skill but a matter of luck.

This “meta” is a good tool for dungeons, and good for people who don’t know how to build and are looking for something straightforward, but at some point you have to remove the small wheels off your bike and learn to do things by yourself.

It is a matter of skill mostly. And I’m someone who doesn’t think every casual player should use zerk gear.

And just because one uses meta builds doesn’t mean they are using training wheels. And in this game, one doesn’t have to remove all of the training wheels. Players can continue to use sites like metabattle to figure out what the new meta is when major balancing patches occur. It’s not a horrible thing for casual players who do not wish to delve into figuring out why a build is the meta to use sites and resources put together by players who do like figuring out what the new meta is.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Seera.5916:

I’ll say it again, if a player’s fun would be affected so much that they would stop playing the game due to dying too much with glass cannon gear, they should start in more defensive gear. And only when they feel comfortable should they move towards glass cannon gear. They should of course not join groups who require meta builds.

They’re not going to die more often in glass cannon gear. That’s sort of the whole point. The effective power per health product between gear prefixes isn’t that big. You can beat most overworld enemies by walking up and auto-attacking with no dodging, even in full glass. Even in heart of thorns, as an elementalist. You don’t do better just because you have more health and armor.

AliamRationem.5172:

That’s a bit misleading. It assumes that with the berserker set your health never reaches 0 at any point during the fight. Certainly that assumption favors choosing berserker gear over marauder. But if it does reach 0, then your damage output is also 0 and the defensive set is a far better choice.

No it doesn’t. The relationship between enemy survival time and enemy damage upkeep is linear. In a straight up brawl, if you would have died doing double damage at base HP then you also would have died doing normal damage at double HP. You’ll still die but it’ll just take longer to fail. Likewise, the existence of a debate doesn’t prove your point. It just means people are ideologically driven enough to take a stance and refuse to listen.

I’ll say it again: this isn’t an issue of skill. The question is if a player will still beat most enemies by default if they’re in glass cannon gear. Unless something has radically changed in the last 8 months the answer is yes they can. Playstyle is influenced more by which class you pick than which gear you use, since HP tiers affect durability more than prefixes if you factor in the tradeoff between damage and durability.

Since most things in the open world do not have OHKO’s, those in more defensive gear do tend to be able to take one or two more hits. And sometimes that one or two more hits can mean the difference between a heal coming off of cool down or going down or getting enough endurance for a dodge.

The number of deaths it may avoid may not be huge. One or two hits can happen quickly. And sometimes just that knowledge may give players the confidence needed to do better. And that aspect may be more important than the one or two more hits.

Sometimes it is best for new players to not use glass cannon gear. If a player can do it, great, if not, they should not feel bad in using other gear.

And I am of course, just talking about open world PvE, not dungeons, fractals, raids, or WvW.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

Mourningcry.9428:

OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.

I’m not. Bad player is a player who doesn’t want to engage in teamwork to overcome the raid fight. Casual is someone who doesn’t have experience with raids but is eager to learn. I’m fine with Casual but not fine with a bad player. Nor am I fine with a bad Casual.

Then why are you wanting the casuals to be kept separate from the raiders? The raiders should be helping out the casuals when they can (time and patience willing).

You keep throwing the word casual around and saying they should be kept separate due to the fact that they just want to be carried and aren’t willing to learn and then turn around and say that casuals are willing to learn.

Can you please pick one definition for the word casual and stick to it. It’s hard to discuss issues when one side can’t pick a definition and stick with it.

I was referring to @Ashen.2907’s comment regarding bad raiders and Casuals. Your insistence on believing I perceive “all” Casuals wanting to be carried. Please stop taking my comments out of context or only attacking specific parts of the whole of my information. It belies the main issue that Casuals who don’t want to invest the time and spread toxicity to everyone else should be kept separate from the raiding community. The few Casuals that really do want to get into the raid content, would try to learn and ask and improve themselves and more often than not, raiding guilds that are looking to recruit would post on the forums looking for new raiders but they have requirements. Those requirements should serve as a baseline for people to improve their ability to play to contribute to the overall group. They always have the option to message the recruiter to learn more about raids and the gear they need.

Then please stop using Casuals to refer to both bad players and players willing to learn raids but haven’t yet.

Hence my last comment in the post: to pick one definition of casual and stick to it. It’s one of those nebulous terms that can mean something different to everyone so if you don’t use it with one uniform definition, it can get hard for others to figure out what your definition of it is or which definition you were going for in the post.

Your OP and your title seem to suggest you mean bad players for casual and you’re not wanting to upset those who are bad at the game (either due to experience or lack of caring or both). Yet, other posts seem to suggest that you just mean the players who haven’t gotten into raiding yet and are willing to learn.

Jubilant.7280:

If you are not willing to put into the time and effort then I’m not sure if your interest in raids is truly genuine. And imo, your perspective of surmising “most, majority” to support your ideology isn’t true. I find people enjoy all types of content and those that want to strive for the best fashion or gear (such as Legendary armor or raid exclusive skins) would invest their time and effort to acquire that gear. You get 2g from dailies, fractals you can make about 1-5g if you do tier 1, you can sell your materials for quite a bit of gold and accumulate it until you have 300g to invest towards a commander’s tag. But even if you don’t want to invest towards a commander’s tag, you have the direct option of messaging me right now and we can set up a date to help you get better gear, train yourself on raids and rotations. There are always other alternatives if you don’t want to invest towards 300g commander’s tag such as joining raid training groups.

I have an interest in doing raids. However, since I know my desire to put forth the effort to do is lacking, I don’t raid and I’m not actively looking to get into the raiding scene.

I do however know that what you suggested in the OP would be bad for the game, because most casuals aren’t bad players who would join raiders’ groups looking to be carried.

And I know full well that I can get up to 300g, it’s not earning the 300g that’s the problem.

It’s getting my money’s worth out of spending it on the commander’s tag. I know that I currently would not get my money’s worth out of it. Therefore for me, it would be a bad choice to buy it. Especially if it was to try raiding out.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.

“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.

Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.

With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.

I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.

If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.

300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.

Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.

You exacerbate my comment. I said if you are interested in raiding, you should invest in a commander’s tag so you can have control of how you want your training to run. If you say you accept criticism and would like to learn, I think you’re a prime candidate for investing towards a tag that you don’t just use in Raids, but in WvW, general PvE content. Since with your avid desire to create equality among the gamers, I believe you would be an exceptional commander. It’s a big investment in the eyes of someone not being a commander and before I bought the tag, I was heistant in spending that much gold. After I did, I felt like it was a major investment because you get to implement the rules you want to tackle specific content whether it is DS or AB MM or Raids.

Yea, I don’t do WvW and I don’t like leading so there would be no use for a commander’s tag for me and I’m not spending 300g on a tag that I’d rarely use. I’m not at this point willing to put for the time and effort to learn rotations for any of my characters for raids.

You’d find that for most players that don’t already have a tag or aren’t currently aiming to get one, that they aren’t going to want to spend 300g for a tag for content that they may find they don’t like even after they learn the mechanics. And if they don’t like to lead map metas or do WvW or anything like that, then that’s 300g that they can’t get back at all.

Jubilant.7280:

Mourningcry.9428:

OP is confused between what a “bad” player is, and a “casual”.

I’m not. Bad player is a player who doesn’t want to engage in teamwork to overcome the raid fight. Casual is someone who doesn’t have experience with raids but is eager to learn. I’m fine with Casual but not fine with a bad player. Nor am I fine with a bad Casual.

Then why are you wanting the casuals to be kept separate from the raiders? The raiders should be helping out the casuals when they can (time and patience willing).

You keep throwing the word casual around and saying they should be kept separate due to the fact that they just want to be carried and aren’t willing to learn and then turn around and say that casuals are willing to learn.

Can you please pick one definition for the word casual and stick to it. It’s hard to discuss issues when one side can’t pick a definition and stick with it.

Jubilant.7280:

So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.

“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.

Please don’t take my comments out of context. Commanders tag is a very helpful source of learning and cooperating. Especially since if you host the training, you will be able to vet out those that just want a swift kill vs those that want to help you and the others to learn and get the kill.

With the way raids are progressing and the attitude of some (the guilds I have joined) players, they themselves are putting up the barrier themselves. It might be a bit of both groups fault but the original goal is to increase the population of raiders and that requires helping out a lot of Casuals. So in the end, it’s really a detente with just a lot of spite thrown around and constantly recycling the same arguments over and over. The barrier’s already there, I just want people to be more aware of it so the word gets out and the Casuals can understand why they’re often kicked from raids or have to lie in order to participate in raids.

I didn’t take your comment out of context. You said casuals should invest in a 300g commander tag before they start raiding. So you’re saying that they should be required to raid.

If the tags were 50g, then maybe. But 300g to start raiding?! I’m casually interested in maybe raiding one day, but if there is ever a requirement to have a commander’s tag then there is no way I’m EVER raiding. And I’m the casual that’s willing to learn and accept criticism. The kind of casual that raiders should be trying to bring into raiding.

300g is a LOT of money to put into something before you start that the player won’t use outside of that content before they really even know if they’ll actually LIKE the content. And it’s not something I can turn around and sell back to a vendor for even a fraction of the cost put into it.

Yes, but if there was an actual barrier, then NO casuals would be helped out. Because the Raiders can’t play with the casuals. Your solution only hurts the raiding community. It doesn’t help it.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

Jubilant.7280:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

Klowde.9876:

Astralporing.1957:

Jubilant.7280:

The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.

Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.

You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.

In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.

I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.

There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.

His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.

I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.

Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.

That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.

Just because there are a few casuals who do not wish to learn Raids and want to force Raiders to carry them does not mean all casuals have to be separated from Raiders.

Stop assuming that all casuals are toxic individuals who just want to be carried through raids without learning the mechanics.

Edit: You defined Casual as those players willing to learn. How can they learn if they aren’t allowed to be with the experienced players?

I think your utopian perspective is never going to work out. What I’m saying has already been in place by the content barrier and is further supported by toxic commanders. What I’m posting is to show an alternative solution to the complex situation but all it did was provide a slightly new perspective on the issue.

Like I said in my previous posts, if Casuals want to learn, they have the option to invest into a commanders tag and post on LFG (xxxx Training) and receive tips and criticisms from raiders. It’s entirely up to them whether they want to be toxic and reject that criticism or be more open to it and absorb that information like I did. I have also given my account name information in case people who read this post and are actually interested in Raid Trainings can contact me and I will host them.

So now commander’s tags are required for raiding?! Last time I checked they were just highly recommended and that players could raid without them, just without all of the tools that commanders have.

“Casuals” and Raiders do not need to be kept separate nor should they be. Most players in this game have the respect needed to not join groups that they do not belong in. Let’s not punish the majority for what the minority does.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’m surprised this debate is still around. Anyway, yes newbies should use glass cannon gear. Berserker, Assassin, Viper, Sinister, etc. if more have been added.

Whether or not a newbie should use glass cannon gear isn’t a question of skill, insomuch as it is a question of efficiency. GW2 was designed PVP first, with close ratios between player stats and gear prefixes. The different stat loadouts you use are all meant to both survive other player’s attacks, and also threaten other players with your attacks. Going full glass or full tank usually means you’re doing twice the damage or talking half the damage of the other. An enemy who dies faster does less damage overall, so a good offense translates into a good defense.

This translates to PVE as well. Nearly every gear prefix was designed to be wholly self-sufficient, so with the exceptions of Nomad and Minstrel you’ll never build yourself into impotence simply by choosing the wrong gear. The enemies only do 2k per attack, if even that much, so you’ll rarely find yourself in insta-gib territory or overwhelmed by damage. But, with all that said, glass cannon gear still has a set of distinct advantages that other sets don’t give.

#1: GC is faster. Faster means quicker healing, quicker rewards, a greater volume of things done per fixed time, and thus it is more profitable.
#2: Likewise, GC gear is more convenient if you have limited play time.
#3: Things are on time limits. Dynamic events and map wide meta events have a literal clock ticking down.
#4: GC has better peak performance. Assuming terrible play most of the sets balance out. But assuming perfect play, GC enables you to accomplish feats that other sets literally cannot do.
#5: Traits, utilities, and tactics make up the bulk of your defenses. If you find yourself dying too fast, it is really easy to change to a more defense trait setup, utility setup, weapon, and strategy. Owning multiple gear prefixes, however, is expensive and cumbersome to deal with.
#6: New players tend to hang back and kite mobs while using ranged weapons, to which defensive stats matter very little. If they’re going to bearbow, they might as well be the best bearbow possible.
#7: You fully heal after the encounter is over, so there is no long-term concerns. A win is a win, so it doesn’t matter how wide a margin your win is.
#8: There are enemies in the game who are so frail that you can obliterate them before they can counter-attack.
#9: Death is cheap. Even if you fail, until the late game it is a mild inconvenience at best.

With all that said, you can make a solid case for Maurader gear. It only does slightly less DPS than Berserkers/Assassins, but that additional 5.8k HP actually means a lot on the low and mid HP tiers. Overall, Maurader is an extremely efficient set in its distribution, and also it has 300 more points total. The big problem is whether or not players will accept you into their team. Though maurader is sufficient for raids, it might not be enough for the raid group.

I’ll say it again, if a player’s fun would be affected so much that they would stop playing the game due to dying too much with glass cannon gear, they should start in more defensive gear. And only when they feel comfortable should they move towards glass cannon gear. They should of course not join groups who require meta builds.

My ability to learn the game was not affected negatively by me gearing up in full Cleric’s with traits and skills set for survivability. It gave me room for a few extra mistakes. I did however, not attempt to PUG dungeons until I was on a character with full glass cannon gear (Berserker/Assassin’s mix) and I joined any welcome groups at that. I did do Fractals on my Cleric’s character with friends (who knew I was in full Cleric’s).

My full Cleric’s character is now sitting in mostly a mixture of Berserker/Assassin’s gear. I’ve got a few other stats as I got a few ascended ring drops in Fractals. And she was the only one of my characters to not get geared as glass cannon when they hit level 80.

Jubilant.7280:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

Klowde.9876:

Astralporing.1957:

Jubilant.7280:

The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.

Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.

You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.

In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.

I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.

There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.

His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.

I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.

Learning to complete a boss fight means there must be roles you have to fulfill to successfully defeat the boss. But sometimes Casuals who are comfortable playing a profession geared with decent toughness and dps may sometimes become the tank but they are ranged. Using logic, having a ranged tank is fundamentally incompatible as the tank will be constantly moving around as this person incorporates their general PvE playstyle into fighting the boss, effectively messing around with the mechanics of the boss or causing a wipe because there’s not enough time to kill the boss.

That’s why I want to separate Casuals from Raiders. If you want to waste other people’s time testing out various builds with 9 other Casuals while not fully comprehending or maximizing your profession, fine. But don’t waste other people’s time when you have a commander’s tag without knowing what the hell you are doing and aren’t open to criticism and then rage or be toxic to your peers simply because you couldn’t kill the boss.

Just because there are a few casuals who do not wish to learn Raids and want to force Raiders to carry them does not mean all casuals have to be separated from Raiders.

Stop assuming that all casuals are toxic individuals who just want to be carried through raids without learning the mechanics.

Edit: You defined Casual as those players willing to learn. How can they learn if they aren’t allowed to be with the experienced players?

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

Klowde.9876:

Astralporing.1957:

Jubilant.7280:

The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.

Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.

You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.

In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.

I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.

There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.

His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.

I dont think that learning how to complete a boss fight as part of a team means that you are not a casual player.

I don’t either. The OP seems to think that based on his first post.

SkyShroud.2865:

Seera.5916:

SkyShroud.2865:

casual is not equivalent to low skill.
low skill is well….newbies
so should zerk be used by newbies? yes.
why? if you learn it the safe way then you won’t be able to do it the “hard” way. you limit your skill cap.

It depends on the player on that. If their skill level is such that they die so often in zerker gear that the game ceases to be fun whereas if they were wearing more defensive gear they would not, they should wear the more defensive gear. And then as they learn, slowly work zerker gear if going from defensive to full glass cannon would be bad for them based on their situation.

nope. there aren’t that many things that can kill a zerker instantly. most of those that can kill a zerker instantly are pretty much end game contents. if a newbies chose to proceed to a end game content while having limited knowledge on their classes, they have to take up the responsible for doing so.

And players with low skill make more mistakes than those with high skill.

Mistakes leads to getting hit more than once.

So if a player’s skill level means that if they wear zerk and die so often that the game ceases to be fun for them, then they should start with more defensive gear and move towards zerk gear when they have gained more skill with the game. If they choose to do so. There is no rule in this game that all players must wear zerk gear. The only time it matters is the end game content where you have to play cooperatively with other players: dungeons, fractals, and raids. In which case, they would need to change their set up or join a group that’s willing to let them not be in meta builds (which do exist for all content to some extent).

Jubilant.7280:

Let me define what I mean by Casual.

Casual is someone who has done all or most of other content other than Raids. They want to get into raids because it might be fun to tackle. They have some or no experience with raiding but they are willing to learn.

Raiders is someone who has experience with raids, understands the meta (augments it here and there aka, I’m going to go all Minstrel Chrono! when the meta from qt does Zerker or Commanders) and generally wants to improve the overall experience of raids. (wing 4 for example, was well done imo because some of the bosses, it was a mechanical fight instead of the boss like Gorseval where the DPS check is ridiculously high)

And those two groups should never be kept separate. The Raiders help the Casuals by teaching them how to to do the raid. The Casuals help the Raiders by increasing their numbers.

They should never be kept separate due to the toxic portions of those groups.

Jubilant.7280:

CptAurellian.9537:

Seera.5916:

There’s room for everyone in raids.

What needs to happen is following:

The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.

The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.

And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.

Both groups need to respect each other.

That would be the reasonable (and utopian?) approach, but I’d like to expand it with one aspect. People in both groups should be very aware of which group they belong to. In my experience from other games, there are too many people who think they’re the greatest raiders when in reality they just suck. Similar problems occur when people with a (hidden) hardcore mentality join more casual groups.

That is almost impossible as those who use the forums are commonly those who would like to invest their time into improving the community. The vast majority of Casuals and even some Raiders | PvP | WvW players do not read the forums as often. The only way for that approach to work where both sides respect each other is if there was a newspaper within the game that would elucidate the topics on the forums but that’s unrealistic so in the end we’re stuck with a small community on the forums trying to resolve issues that are impossible to resolve because the information isn’t being shared across the entire gaming community. So in the end, you have Casuals who don’t know what they’re doing, don’t care and want to play the game their way but often clashing with Raiders who want swift and efficient clears but don’t give any care about training others because they have other things to do (playing another game, studying, work, real life issues). And in-between the maliciousness of the two are a fraction of players who want to help and support Casuals while also be able to fulfill the needs of Raiders are kind enough to help but also want the kill. (the kind between swift clears but are patient enough to help others)

I even tried to find a solution by joining mega guilds or small knit communities to try to support them but the toxicity and resentment of Casuals hating raids because of their encounters with elitists or simply their adamant desire to play the way they want “Because it’s a game” serves as the barrier that prevent people from enjoying this challenging content.

And you’re just as bad as the extremists on either side. You’re saying that because there will always be a minority of toxic players on either side, that the two sides should be split by the game. That’s just as bad.

You should be trying to get the non-toxic players to step up and help out and call out the toxic players by reporting them when they cross the line and/or not raiding with them. So that those toxic players either have to play with others who are toxic or change their attitude.

Jubilant.7280:

Scykosix.7836:

Where do i sign for this 1337 raiding university to be coooool enough for raids. I need to get my degree of a raider so i wont be a casual.

But seriously you are killing a scripted NPC, 5 months of practicing for that? Difficulty of the raid is pretty casual itself the only problem is the LI req because hey i play the game longer so that means im better right. If only PvP had the same measurement of skill as PvE, that would be funny.

I spent 5 months by myself learning how to raid, gearing myself to be better equipped, learning which composition works, failing many times, getting cursed out by elitists because I didn’t know or have the right gear or builds. I was alone for those 5 months, until I decided that I’ve hit a brick wall with Matthias so I joined a raid guild to help me progress further. I’m not looking to find the people who would subject themselves to this much grueling effort but I want to find those who think similar so I can encourage them and support them to increase the population of raiders who can in turn try to teach Casuals and this would lead to a cascading effect. But with Anet’s marketing approach of marketing the game as noob-friendly, they give Casuals that expectation that raids should be noob-friendly as well. That is what I find is poisoning the community because Casuals are like the masses that were fed singular expectation and when their expectations don’t hold up, they alienate that content.

And raids were not advertised as easy content. They were advertised as challenging content.

And stop assuming that all Casuals are trying to turn raids into easy content. They’re not. How do I know? Because I’m a casual and I’m not trying to turn raids into easy content.

Casuals can be Raiders and Raiders can be Casuals. Just because one raids does not mean one is not casual and that if you’re casual you can’t raid.

FrostDraco.8306:

I don’t think you understand the GW2 meta very well. While i agree with your sentiment, the GW2 meta has objectively been a dps race. If it was truly based on success rate, mistrel chrono would be meta, as it can literallly carry teams in raid. But it’s not. It’s relegated to a ‘viable’ build because it has low dps.

The only class i feel actively needs defensive gear is necro, and thats only because we lack active damage mitigation other than protection and dodging.

Necro traits allow you to take gear with no precision or very little, and still cap in parties. For instance right now, valkyrie necro is the highest dps necro build when min maxed, because of this. But it isn’t a ‘meta’ build? It has the highest damage and survivability, but it’s still not meta.

But I think that is a specific case.

Revenants, also have a trait that allows them to drop some precision due to double fury bonus.

META in GW2, is an issue when you truly want to min max. Most content can be cleared with viable or near meta builds. Yet people will cry about something as simple as not having the right food, because ‘meta’. And yes, I have actually had a condi necro rage at someone in our t4 fractals because they didnt have the right utility pot up when we started.

Meta in GW2 isn’t always the most effective. Sometimes its simply the highest dps. Which is sad for a classes like necro, rev, and engi.

I’m referring to the PUG meta where players who aren’t looking for steady groups come in.

If the highest DPS combination of classes and builds and rotations isn’t easy for PUG’s to get, it’s not going to be the PUG meta.

The PUG meta for a class is the magical combination of easy to pull off and highest DPS. It gives the highest success rate between groups of strangers. Where success is completing the content within a reasonably quick time.

And I’m fully aware that the meta is all about maxing DPS. But if the average skill level of the average PUG group would end up wiping 75% of the time or taking 3x longer than the static groups (due to not being able to pull off the rotation flawlessly) with the highest DPS set up, then it’s not going to be the PUG meta likely. Because they’ll be too likely to wipe too often or easier for them pull off in a shorter time frame. They’ll back down a step or two (which likely won’t hurt their DPS too terribly, it just won’t be max DPS) and find something that’s got a lower chance of them wiping and easier rotations to pull off so they don’t take forever.

I fully understand what meta is with regards to GW2. And I’m fully aware that the meta may not necessarily be the most effective, highest possible DPS on paper, because people make mistakes and can’t always do the theoretical DPS.

I don’t know how you thought I didn’t get what the meta is from my post, I really don’t. I said nothing that you didn’t say in different words.

Klowde.9876:

Astralporing.1957:

Jubilant.7280:

The raiding community is more than willing to help Casuals get into raids, but they have to put in the effort and time to learn in order to become a better gamer.

Yes, that’s the core of the problem. You’re willing to help casuals, but only if that means they will stop being casuals.

You ask casuals to stay away from you, but in the end it’s you that should be kept away from them. Which, in the end, is not what this game should be all about. What you’re talking about is creating a split in the community. Any such split can only poison the game.

In the end, what really needs to happen is the exact opposite. We need to seek ways to make raiders and casuals to be able to coexist together without one side trying to force the other one to change.

I really don’t see that as the core of the problem. You’re saying that just because one is expected to learn something about the game, they are no longer casual? It makes perfect sense that to do raids, people who have no experience still have to learn it.
Raids are supposed to be challenging content, and anyone who walks into a raid and refuses to learn it is wasting everyone’s time or asking to get carried through it.

There’s nothing wrong with helping casual players become better at the game, assuming these casual players want to raid. If you don’t want to become better at the game and challenge yourself, then don’t raid. If you want to raid, you’d be willing to dedicate a certain amount of your time to learning these raids, and there will be resource like raid trainers who would very willingly and kindly help you with becoming a better player so you can finish the raids.

His problem is the OP wants to train others but only if they are willing to stop being casual because according to the OP casuals and raiders can’t be put together.

Jubilant.7280:

Seera.5916:

The one to Rule.2593:

Seera.5916:

There’s room for everyone in raids.

What needs to happen is following:

The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.

The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.

And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.

Both groups need to respect each other.

Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.

My post wasn’t just to him. The post was to the OP as well. Casuals and Raiders don’t need to be kept separate. They just need to respect each other and they’ll be able to coexist. On a slow day, a meta group may be willing to accept a single casual that’s honest about his/hear gear and experience with the raid. A casual group may learn a better strategy when a single meta player decides to PUG with casuals instead.

Raiders and Casuals cannot exist when they both resent each other, one trying to help the Casuals learn how to improve themselves but facing a brick wall and the other, wanting the kill but not willing to invest the time into it. This is why I said they should be kept separate, to mitigate the amount of toxicity and hatred that’s fueling the raiding community. I’ve hosted myriad VG training sessions and majority of the time, I often get 3-4 raiders who just simply want to help out with 2-3 Casuals and another 2-3 Alt accounts (that get quickly replaced by people who just want kills and keep cycling through).

Like I said, both groups need to respect the other and then they’ll be able to coexist.

And you’re assuming that all casuals don’t respect the desires of those who prefer the meta. And that’s not respectful to the casuals that do respect those desires. Those casuals should not be prohibited from joining on meta raid groups (and being honest about not being meta and what their experience level is) just because of the casuals who do not respect the desires of those who prefer meta.

The one to Rule.2593:

Seera.5916:

There’s room for everyone in raids.

What needs to happen is following:

The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.

The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.

And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.

Both groups need to respect each other.

Ignore dirtbeard all his posts are complaints about raids despite him not able to kill one boss.

My post wasn’t just to him. The post was to the OP as well. Casuals and Raiders don’t need to be kept separate. They just need to respect each other and they’ll be able to coexist. On a slow day, a meta group may be willing to accept a single casual that’s honest about his/hear gear and experience with the raid. A casual group may learn a better strategy when a single meta player decides to PUG with casuals instead.

There’s room for everyone in raids.

What needs to happen is following:

The players that prefer meta only members need to respect the groups that say “any welcome” and not try to force them to go meta or get upset when things don’t go smoothly if they’re PUGing with a “any welcome” group.

The players who don’t want to follow the meta for whatever reason need to respect the groups that say meta only and not join them and lie about it.

And since “any welcome” would accept meta builds, if there’s any confusion assume meta only and ask if you’re not if it’s alright if you run X.

Both groups need to respect each other.

SkyShroud.2865:

casual is not equivalent to low skill.
low skill is well….newbies
so should zerk be used by newbies? yes.
why? if you learn it the safe way then you won’t be able to do it the “hard” way. you limit your skill cap.

It depends on the player on that. If their skill level is such that they die so often in zerker gear that the game ceases to be fun whereas if they were wearing more defensive gear they would not, they should wear the more defensive gear. And then as they learn, slowly work zerker gear if going from defensive to full glass cannon would be bad for them based on their situation.

Dawnbreaker.6215:

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

You should absolutely use zerk (unless you’re going with a condi build, then you should go Vipers).

The problem with using other gear, especially gear that focuses more on durability, is that it can teach you bad habits, or fail to teach you good habits. When you use Berserker gear, you learn thing like damage mitigation through things like blind, distort, aegis, etc. You learn how to position better and you learn to dodge crucial attacks and just work better in a group. Using tank stats causes you to miss out on those lessons.

Yeah because you can dodge everything and avoid everything with those, right?

At no point in an open world event will you ever dodge an AoE just to find yourself in yet another AoE attack?

Or find that your defensive skills are on cooldown, while being in the middle of a red circle?

Or find that the boss you’re fighting has gone invincible and all you can do for 60 seconds is avoid its damage or tank it head on?

And even if none of the above ever, ever happen to you because of how much a pro you are (which, again, I highly doubt, regardless of your level of skill; some deaths are just unavoidable while in zerk gear) it’s not the case of 90% of the community.

This zerk meta crap just has to die one day or the other. Bringing in Vipers was not enough to bury it.

Most people don’t find themselves in those situations often enough to center armor stat choices around it.

Trust me, I should know. I’m a low/mid-skill level casual player who plays characters in Berserker gear and I don’t have many, if any, defensive skills. I don’t find myself in the situations you described often enough that have led to my character being downed.

Name me one open world boss that goes invincible for 60 seconds without a secondary objective to make it uninvincible?

Meta is only an issue when players enter content that requires cooperation between players. The meta is the meta because it’s the easiest build that gives the highest chances of success in what players wish to do. If you find the meta bad, then don’t join groups asking for it. Make a group and advertise what stats you want players to use, if any.

I also don’t understand why you think the meta should die. It’s not going to change anyone’s behavior as it pertains to the meta. Groups that currently require the meta will still require whatever becomes the new meta and will still exclude anyone who doesn’t. It’s not going to suddenly make players with lower skill levels any better at the game and it isn’t going to change their survivability in any huge way – the game runs on active defense, armor is passive so 99% of time deaths are due to not being aware of the situation and not the player’s gear.

If they aren’t unlocked, they won’t show up in the wardrobe as unlocked and I don’t remember if Rytlock shows up at all if you don’t have the Deluxe version.

Have you checked your bank’s collectible tab at the very bottom? Minis used to be stored there and the tab remains there until you remove the minis. I had a very similar panic when I couldn’t find my Rytlock that I got with the deluxe version and then found I had a few other minis that I completely had forgotten about when I remembered they used to be stored there.

Aizza.4950:

You are ALL forgetting that there is a weekly receivable limit of 500g….

How the limit works is I can send you 1000g.

You can remove 500g today and then the remaining 500g will sit in the mail. Come next week you can remove the remaining 500g.

Samnang.1879:

Gator.5729:

There already is open world PvP, it’s called WvW. Just head over there are pretend to be white mantle. You can even pick up the white mantle outfit from the gem store and buy some bloodstone weapons off of the TP.

I’m not into role playing though.

Besides, my idea is different from WvW…it’s about specific events and zones you can enter into to fight each other and gain rewards. It’s just the same as any other maps (Lake doric etc), except instead of fighting npc, it will be other players… the objectives for each event will be different, whereas in WvW, the objective remains the same.

And WvW zones are the zones you enter to fight each other gain rewards.

PvE is built entirely around cooperation. Not having to wonder if the player approaching you is going to steal your kill, steal your node, or kill you.

Now, I wouldn’t be opposed to them having the occasional weekend event where some PvE maps become more PvP. Like the branded event at the end of one of the Beta weekend events before the game launched.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Usually if you’re inexperienced then it’s immediately obvious 1 minute into the fight.

And if you’ve lied about your LI, then you get labeled as a liar as well and lose people’s trust. And it’s a LOT easier to lose someone’s trust than it is to gain it back.

Zero Day.2594:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Because NA players have their data stored in the NA data center, and EU players have their data stored in the EU data center. Moving data between the two takes up to half an hour. Players would likely be unhappy having to wait so long to join others, join instances, play together, etc.

Right…
Yet if I remember correctly, GW1 did have a International Channels.
So it’s more like they don’t seem to have a middle-ground server for both regions, that could respond to both regions in a reasonable amount of time – in terms of decisions made in game (as in, did you kill something? what’s your health? where you are…).

Furthermore…. There’s already a bit of “communication” going on between the two regions. You can talk/whisper cross-regions, you can even see them on the map if you’re in party – their blue dot shows up but they don’t. You can talk and see people’s names in guilds/friends that are from another region, along with where they are….

In terms of “Moving data between the two takes up to half an hour.” – I’m not sure what you’re referring to, or how you’re quantifying things and what’s being moved…
DB’s? Tables of DB’s? Simply entries? It’s like you have some insight into this… I mean if you meant the logical decisions the server makes about the game, then no, not an hour – your latency will just shoot up to as if you’re playing on a foreign region from home (ping of +400ms). The only scenario I can see that takes more hour is someone requesting to region transfer. At which point the system will eventually (on whatever check cycle it’s on -as in check every 4 hours) pick up that someone requested a region transfer and will take a couple of minutes to send everything where yet another system will eventually check if someone is transferring… (But all this I made up in my head)

It takes a few hours for a transfer from a NA world to a EU world or vice versa from what I believe for the average player. Remember, all of our character data is stored on ANet’s servers.

The servers aren’t likely SSD’s and it takes a while transfer data, which for this game would include: our inventories – bank & bag (and which slot something is in), what our characters look like, what’s equipped, what traits are chosen, what skills are chosen, which utility is in which slot, what step the character is on in the personal story/living story, what their map completion is, etc.

zcearo.1897:

Seera.5916:

zcearo.1897:

Only people wearing all offensive gear get downed in one shot .
If you get one shotted you have too much offensive gear
If you don’t do enough condition damage you need more CD gear.
If a fight with a small mob takes too long you have too much defencive gear.
Mix and match for the win !

In some instances there are attacks that are one shots regardless of what gear you use. Mostly in dungeons and fractals and raids.

If you have some defense there is no one shot . Unless you are talking about the lazer floor in the artherblades hide out fractal . That’s not really a attacking foe I didn’t count that .

Like I said, the one shot attacks tend to be found in instanced content.

zcearo.1897:

Only people wearing all offensive gear get downed in one shot .
If you get one shotted you have too much offensive gear
If you don’t do enough condition damage you need more CD gear.
If a fight with a small mob takes too long you have too much defencive gear.
Mix and match for the win !

In some instances there are attacks that are one shots regardless of what gear you use. Mostly in dungeons and fractals and raids.

aerial.7021:

Why do you all call is zerk ? When it starts with a B… Berserker’s I remember it being really confusing when I first started as to what on earth people where walking about as it didn’t match anything on wiki.

1. It was shorter for LFG postings.
2. Now it’s probably also to distinguish it from the Warrior Elite class when discussing things on the forum.