The fractals, dungeons and raids can all be clared by any team comp with knowledge of the scenario and boss mechanics. Period.
Nope. Dungeons and fractals? Yeah, possibly, even likely, depending on the skill of the group. Raids? Nope. Not on all bosses anyway. There are some minimum requirements there that not all group comps would fulfill.
Is that an objectively bad thing? there is optimal, there is suboptimal-but-viable, there is reasonable and there is unreasonable. Is it too high a bar to ask people to run at least reasonable builds?
I don’t think so. I think the base line of have a healer, enough cc and meager dps needed to beat enrage isn’t a very constrciting paragdigm. That’s all it takes to qualify as reasonable. If that is too restricting for you I’d suggest that raids just aren’t for you the same way ESL pvp isn’t for me.
People run viable builds but nobody wants them because everyone and their mother just blindly follows elitists guides that most can’t even execute properly.
How is revenant still unbalanced for you, IMO, its already overnerfed and broken class in this game.
Theres a poll in reddit right now that shows which class you like the most, guess what class is at the bottom with 5% of the votes.. Revenant.
In the last 3 nights in WvW SBI, the entire pug squad of over 30+ ppl, I have not seen any revs. Theres a WvW Guild here [sV] that’s been recruiting for revs for days now and its still looking.
I fought 2 Revs in PVP in the past 6 days, both were easily killed by my ele which I just made using a default ingame premade auramancer build lol.
Revenant is dead. It has 2 useful sets of weapons (sword/shield+staff), it has 2 useful legends (Glint+Shiro) it has 1 useful metabuild (Dev/Invo/Herald), Sword 2 and 3 are buggy, Staff 5 requires precision to aim even then most experienced pvp’ers will avoid/counter all this easily.
If anything they need some serious unnerfings or buffs. In the meantime, ill be on my ele using my rev as storage.
- most of reddit population is pve’ers and roleplayers. Ofc they wouldn’t like rev since it is not viable for elitist raiding according to qT (which is total bs imo) and you know how blindly people follow some elitist crap even though they can’t even play as well.
- how is WvW related to pvp?
- extremely tiny player pool doesn’t proof anything. I also would bet those revs were bad or tried out new stuff.
- pretty much every class is pigeonholed in the same build (at least at high pvp levels). Every class suffers from game breaking bugs.
- no, if anything they need to nerf rev and other elite specs more so core become viable and we actually see some build varietyI get revs in my team a lot in higher MMR matches – in my experience thief/rev combo wombo allowed us to carry hard. We even won 2v3 fights vs classes that rev supposedly is weak against (condi mes, necro). Really, the problem with rev is between monitor and chair.
Bandwagon moved somewhere else, eh?
So your saying Rev’s should get more nerfs bec you can make a premade team with revs and wreck pugs in unranked? Do you even Rev? You sound like a thief who got 1 shotted by a zerker hammer rev and demands more nerfs.
No, my point is rev is still very strong. We won vs classes he is supposed to lose against. I wasn’t in premade with those revs btw, we just ended up on same team, that is all. It was ranked too.
Also, all pro league players i know said rev is still best pick. I respect their opinion more than cries from spoiled bandwagon members.
Yes, i do have a rev and play it once in a while, i just don’t like their playstyle, never did really. I didn’t get one shot by zerker hammer rev, i do demand nerfs for revs and all other elite specs however. Go play core thief vs revs – maybe you will realize how still overtuned they are along with other elite specs. This game won’t see variety until elite specs and rev get proper nerfs.
I honestly don’t understand all these cries from rev playes – we all knew rev was overtuned beyond comparison for the sake of HoT sales, we all knew the class going to get nerfed when Anet sold enough HoT copies. What did you actually expect lol?
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I see 3 major issues with thieves:
- We have the damage but we can’t land it on anything besides other thieves because every other classes has so many passives + blocks, weakness, blinds, invuls, perma protection etc. I am not fan of powercreep but if things are not going to change thief needs more tools to deal with such walls (e.g. unblockables, more boon steal etc.)
- team utility is abysmal. Same reason why d/p is the set to use in pvp since it is only thing really that offers any kind of utility for team. Our utilities are also abysmally bad besides few must haves that everyone used for years – i think devs really need to look how we can be more useful for groups. In pvp it might be ok because we decap all day anyway (although team utility is why revs took over thieves) but in pve and wvw i feel like we are really really really unwanted because other classes do as much if not more dmg and bring by far more team utility (i had some “nice” discussion with my raid leader about my thief vs my ele qq).
- we supposed to be kings of mobility and that is why we are squishy but other classes are not that far behind us. Anet gave all classes so much mobility that in most cases if you go for decap your own speed will buy you maybe 1 sec before someone arrives – not to mention you are out of CD and ini while they have all their spells and dodges. I see no other way to fix it as to dramatically increase CD on mobility for other classes.
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How is revenant still unbalanced for you, IMO, its already overnerfed and broken class in this game.
Theres a poll in reddit right now that shows which class you like the most, guess what class is at the bottom with 5% of the votes.. Revenant.
In the last 3 nights in WvW SBI, the entire pug squad of over 30+ ppl, I have not seen any revs. Theres a WvW Guild here [sV] that’s been recruiting for revs for days now and its still looking.
I fought 2 Revs in PVP in the past 6 days, both were easily killed by my ele which I just made using a default ingame premade auramancer build lol.
Revenant is dead. It has 2 useful sets of weapons (sword/shield+staff), it has 2 useful legends (Glint+Shiro) it has 1 useful metabuild (Dev/Invo/Herald), Sword 2 and 3 are buggy, Staff 5 requires precision to aim even then most experienced pvp’ers will avoid/counter all this easily.
If anything they need some serious unnerfings or buffs. In the meantime, ill be on my ele using my rev as storage.
- most of reddit population is pve’ers and roleplayers. Ofc they wouldn’t like rev since it is not viable for elitist raiding according to qT (which is total bs imo) and you know how blindly people follow some elitist crap even though they can’t even play as well.
- how is WvW related to pvp?
- extremely tiny player pool doesn’t proof anything. I also would bet those revs were bad or tried out new stuff.
- pretty much every class is pigeonholed in the same build (at least at high pvp levels). Every class suffers from game breaking bugs.
- no, if anything they need to nerf rev and other elite specs more so core become viable and we actually see some build variety
I get revs in my team a lot in higher MMR matches – in my experience thief/rev combo wombo allowed us to carry hard. We even won 2v3 fights vs classes that rev supposedly is weak against (condi mes, necro). Really, the problem with rev is between monitor and chair.
Bandwagon moved somewhere else, eh?
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How is WvW relevant?
Wars and thieves in s1 were garbage = that is definition of bottom tiers. Once again, necros are not even remotely there.
Because people play WvW for PvP, and the main difference is that you don’t fight in circles. Next time you play PvP, be relentless to any necro you see. It works quite well. They can’t do anything about it.
PvP is not balanced around wvw, frankly game is no balanced around wvw. It is completely different environment, so there is no point bringing it up.
Once again, it depends how good necro is and how good his teammates are. I play thief – which is necros worst nightmare, yes i do focus them but no way i can kill one with support.
Honestly, what do you want people? Invuls, perma prot, blocks, insane heals, high dmg and high moblity? iWin button also?
We have none of those, so any of them would go a long ways.
Ofc necro doesn’t have it because it is designed around having high HP pool, DS, low mobility, life steal, high uptime on chills, cripples, immobs, weakness, poison, CC and vulnerability. You don’t see thieves apply absurd amount of chills or cripples because they have their ports for mobility. Reason why guards have high heals and blocks is because they are extremely squishy behind all those. Giving necros more than what they have atm would just make them broken. Just look at scrappers after HoT was launched: high dmg, high survivability (evades, blocks, reflects), good heals, STEALTH!!!! = just stupidly imbalanced spec that lead to nothing good for overall health of the pvp.
Necro, imo, is built around spreading condis, slow fight (not porting around like mad) on point and facetanking damage. If you don’t like the way they are designed, you might be playing wrong class. I, for example, personally can’t stay ele playstyle so i don’t play them (besides raids, that is). Yes, it sucks to rely on teammates and getting no help but it is the same for eles and thieves for example. I actually find necros quite enjoyable and i think their weaknesses are reasonable.
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How is WvW relevant?
Wars and thieves in s1 were garbage = that is definition of bottom tiers. Once again, necros are not even remotely there.
Because people play WvW for PvP, and the main difference is that you don’t fight in circles. Next time you play PvP, be relentless to any necro you see. It works quite well. They can’t do anything about it.
PvP is not balanced around wvw, frankly game is no balanced around wvw. It is completely different environment, so there is no point bringing it up.
Once again, it depends how good necro is and how good his teammates are. I play thief – which is necros worst nightmare, yes i do focus them but no way i can kill one with support.
Honestly, what do you want people? Invuls, perma prot, blocks, insane heals, high dmg and high moblity? iWin button also?
Petition: delete every necro QQ thread.
You guys play necro wrong. I play mine as kamikaze – i may go in downstate but I MAKE SURE I TAKE MANY ENEMIES WITH ME!!! BWAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!! (and then rely on friendly scrapper to rez me <3)
Dude. They nerfed kamikaze Necro ages ago.
I still can’t believe that was actually meta for a period.
I am not playing that kamikaze build, just normal condis with wells if they have too many dhs and condi wars. Ofc i get focused 24/7 but i make sure enemy pays for it dearly.
They actually stand in your AoE? When I’m on my druid, only good necromancers even land a hit. I can easily shut them down with 1 well placed cc though. Necromancer is totally helpless if you interrupt them while they’re healing.
Every other class has better survivability and mobility than their pre hot counterparts. Necromancer recieved tiny improvements that were either nerfed or are completely meaningless because everyone else got bigger buffs in those areas. We deserve more than mediocre dps and lots of hp!Yeah they do stand in it because either it is on the point or they are all trying to kill me so i drop everything at my feet. Necros got great upgrade with HoT, idk what you are talking about. I think new shroud is way stronger than core one (stability, hard stun with chill field, whirling axe, gap closer + blind). Drop wells -> DS and go to town. Also, forgot s2? Necro dps is everything but mediocre……
Forgot season 2? No. Necromancer was viable in WvW then. More stability, good damage, more damage reduction, more chill, not dependent on bleed… It was a different class. Now it has come full circle to where it was pre hot.
No it is not….. also how is wvw relevant?
Faced 4 DHs, all used pull on me – the game didn’t know where to put me lol
How is WvW relevant?
Wars and thieves in s1 were garbage = that is definition of bottom tiers. Once again, necros are not even remotely there.
Petition: delete every necro QQ thread.
You guys play necro wrong. I play mine as kamikaze – i may go in downstate but I MAKE SURE I TAKE MANY ENEMIES WITH ME!!! BWAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!! (and then rely on friendly scrapper to rez me <3)
Dude. They nerfed kamikaze Necro ages ago.
I still can’t believe that was actually meta for a period.
I am not playing that kamikaze build, just normal condis with wells if they have too many dhs and condi wars. Ofc i get focused 24/7 but i make sure enemy pays for it dearly.
They actually stand in your AoE? When I’m on my druid, only good necromancers even land a hit. I can easily shut them down with 1 well placed cc though. Necromancer is totally helpless if you interrupt them while they’re healing.
Every other class has better survivability and mobility than their pre hot counterparts. Necromancer recieved tiny improvements that were either nerfed or are completely meaningless because everyone else got bigger buffs in those areas. We deserve more than mediocre dps and lots of hp!
Yeah they do stand in it because either it is on the point or they are all trying to kill me so i drop everything at my feet. Necros got great upgrade with HoT, idk what you are talking about. I think new shroud is way stronger than core one (stability, hard stun with chill field, whirling axe, gap closer + blind). Drop wells → DS and go to town. Also, forgot s2? Necro dps is everything but mediocre……
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Things is, you are in trouble on any class if you get focused by multiple enemies.
Well this is not true.
Thief / Mes can disengage via stealth and multiple evades
Guardian can be practically invincible for about 14 seconds unless unblockables are used.
War can be invincible for nearly as long but also has better disengage.
Engi has access to blocks and invuln.
Ranger was practically immortal last season but still has top tier sustain / invuln vs heavy focus-fire.
Surviving is what Ele’s do best now.
The only other profession that comes close is Revenant and thats with a class who has an invuln on a 12 recharge, 3 second block, and a heal that’s pretty much the best heal vs focus fire in the game.Necromancers have nothing that completely nullifies excessive focus-fire. Paired with little access to stability; you have the perfect punching bag.
This is why Necromancers are the focused class. You can ask a newborn baby who to focus and their first words will be “the Necro”. Everyone knows this. Even I focus the necro first lol.
You haven’t faced good players then. 1 rev is enough to instagib a thief (ed+staff5), if he teams up with say another thief or mes it is GG, no dodges in the world will help you there.
Same goes for guards. I have played thief with buddy mes – we nuked DH before he could even blink.
Necros do have DS, i wouldn’t underestimate it. It saved my life countless times. Also, to stop pressure you gotta apply counter-pressure and hope your teammates will support/peel for you. I usually drop all the cancer i can under my feet – yes i am getting focused but my enemies take crap load of dmg as well if they actually dare to go in melee. As far as range goes i just hug walls like no tomorrow.
As far as focusing goes – in many cases yes you should be focusing necros, sometimes i do focus healers if it is only thing that keeps enemy alive. Also freecasting necro will murder your entire team – also good reason why to focus them first.
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But we are not the only class that uses stealth anymore
Is sneak gyro really that much of a problem after nerf? Meta mes doesn’t really use stealth. Druid doesn’t sit in it either nor it is spammable. You suggestion would just hurt thieves the most.
I would rather propose changes that would give us better chance vs other classes. Thieves already murder each other pretty quickly.
Necros are not only class that heavily rely on team……
That’s true, but the only that totally can’t do anyhting without a team, not even hope to fight a 1vs1 and survive, sometimes not even longer enough to make the other players come to help.
Can’t do 1vs1, can’t decap (no movement skills) and can’t hold the point for enough time waiting for allies.
The only thing is good in is spam boon corruption, Rs combo to inflict some damage and spam poison and then get ressed by an engi/ranger. The best class ever…
That is not true. Necros give engis and revs hard times. You can hold point for a while as well.
On my necro i am usually in trouble either when thief is training me or i get trained by multiple enemies. Things is, you are in trouble on any class if you get focused by multiple enemies.
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Do we really need more skills to kill each other? I think thief need all help they can get vs other classes…….
Necros are not only class that heavily rely on team……
everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.
I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.
And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.
I’d say they’re right.
But hey what do i know….
You can join a guild
- 150 LI or gtfo
Use LFG to join a Group
- 150 LI or gtfo
Use LFG to create a Group
- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts
Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded
- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.
Just want to clear up a misconception, you can make a raid squad without a tag. Also you don’t have to have ts, just find 9 other ppl who don’t want to use ts.
and wipe over and over again?
Petition: delete every necro QQ thread.
You guys play necro wrong. I play mine as kamikaze – i may go in downstate but I MAKE SURE I TAKE MANY ENEMIES WITH ME!!! BWAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!! (and then rely on friendly scrapper to rez me <3)
Dude. They nerfed kamikaze Necro ages ago.
I still can’t believe that was actually meta for a period.
I am not playing that kamikaze build, just normal condis with wells if they have too many dhs and condi wars. Ofc i get focused 24/7 but i make sure enemy pays for it dearly.
Oh please. Necro is nowhere as bad as thieves and wars were in s1. They actually have spot in pro league teams as well.
Use training NPCs in aerodrome?
Petition: delete every necro QQ thread.
You guys play necro wrong. I play mine as kamikaze – i may go in downstate but I MAKE SURE I TAKE MANY ENEMIES WITH ME!!! BWAHAHAHAHHAA!!!!! (and then rely on friendly scrapper to rez me <3)
everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.
I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.
And people who say things like this do not understand what people mean when they say raids are inaccessible. They feel that what works for them must work equally well for anyone else. They are wrong.
I’d say they’re right.
But hey what do i know….
You can join a guild
- 150 LI or gtfo
Use LFG to join a Group
- 150 LI or gtfo
Use LFG to create a Group
- yeah except it requires comm tag and ts
Use your FL to pull together 10 people who are likeminded
- getting 10 ppl together at the same time is extremely hard actually. I have pvp team and we can barely manage to practice once in a while because everyone is busy.
Pets being a threat is fine – you’re supposed to actually consider them when dealing with a Ranger because without it, the Ranger’s own damage is laughable. The problem is that non-HoT pets are extremely underwhelming and need to be brought up to Smokescale/BB levels of viable. Most struggle to even hit or pursue a moving target as they are.
DHs didn’t get nerfed too badly. Really, I think the only thing they need changed is how traps “work” in general (for all professions). If you set a trap, there should be a secondary option to trigger it manually before going into CD (except for Purification)
Revenants change to ED, while understandable to keep in consistency with how other “charge” skills work, should have come with an increase to the base heal of the skill’s activation or faster use of the daggers themselves. The change to their Stability is also extremely questionable since it means their only -reliable- source of it is completely dependent on the opponent’s actions.
Jalis (still buggy), Ventari, and Mallyx are also considerably underwhelming, and the recent change did no favors for any of them.
Eles got some nice offensive buffs, but it still doesn’t allow them to run offensive builds as easily without being insta-downed by someone batting an eye at them
Are you for real? Why shouldn’t healer/bunker druid damage be laughable? What the point of playing squishy dps when you can go bunker and dish out dmg? This is exactly what is wrong with HoT on first place.
What is wrong with elite specs being on same level as core. It would mean you would have choice of still playing elite or play core = build variety. Nobody says elite specs should be nerfed to the level of being unviable.
everyone who complains about not being able to join raids seems to forget all about guilds. There are many guilds that do scheduled training and loot raids, which is very accessible.
I also I see many lfg groups that don’t check insights or gear, but you’ll be less likely to actually get a kill.
1. there is no guarantee you get into guild or guild raid group. Yeah, maybe they will take you for VG but anything like KC, Xera, Matt – no ty. I got lucky getting into guild that takes me to any fight but i have spent A LOT of time prior that trying to get into any group/guild. I am talking about weeks and months here.
2. Those groups also never really get a kill on harder bosses from my experience. There is always some people that didn’t even check guide, some people that just do everything against the guide despite how many times you tell them what to do. There is always someone lagging, someone just messing up over and over and over again.
edit: omg there are raiding groups in LFG requiring 100 LI for VG. This is just sad.
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Guess why ppl, that were trash pre HoT got quite decent with rev now. It was not that easy to play on high level, but still way too much reward for not that good ppl. Now actually ppl have to play better but it is still the most broken profession. I can not see any reason to complain here, especially cause other professions also saw nerfs.
Mmm, no not at all. Prior to HOT i was 1v2ing on warr consistently as shouts. Rev released with HOT and had a much steeper learning curve than warr(still does), and most classes due to the weapon swap/ legend swap mechanic on top of having cool downs and energy to be managed making the class extremely clunky. And TBH when Rev could have hypothetically been called OP in season 1, there were many specs wayy more OP (ele and mes for example) and have been every season. I’ve been legend every season btw as solo Q with relatively few games played.
Rev is weak to both hard and soft cc, on top of condis. Rev has weak heals that are hard to use, and pretty much its only defenses are evades. (The same sort of evade combos that can be made on Rev can be made on warr and other classes like thief to an even greater extent). This class has no strengths at the moment, other than high sustained damage, and it has to be played pretty much perfectly to achieve the results that make it seem as if it’s being done oh so easily. Any mistake on rev generally means instant death right now and in some scenarios with it’s inherit weaknesses there are just some match ups that are pretty close to impossible.
Not to mention besides the standard build most revs were playing, there is nothing else even close to being viable. Like 80% of the class is useless, and has been since release.
EDIT: I can see why this game stopped being competitive years priors to HOT. No shots at anybody but if statements like yours are taken seriously, well…I fold
Welcome to thief world where you have crap load of weakness and only solution is dodge. 1 mistake = you are dead. The class still suffering from all the poor decisions from balancing team that competitive teams just ignore thief in matches. Anet has been forced thief into team decap pet role that is unable to fight anything for years now.
Now revs get the taste of it a bit (still nowhere as close though). The class was so overtuned for so long, people simply got spoiled and think being broken is normal. Nobody will pity revs right now because revs deserved heavy nerfs.
Rev is still best class for pvp, it just have higher skill floor than before.
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They should nerf all elite specs (including rev) to core spec levels otherwise we will be stuck with same builds till new elite spec comes out.
That would be an excellent way to make people to quite the game, taking in consideration that no one with the expansion is playing the vanilla classes -ouside a very few exceptions-.
Yeah and only reason for it is because elite specs are broken as hell compared to core. Every single friend i have in pvp would rather play core build if it was viable in higher tiers. People would quit if game had more build variety? Sssssuuuureeee.
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Druid balanced perfectly —-- ahahahahahahahahaha; NO, just no. Pet deals too much dmg for how bunkery druid is. They still have RTL on 18 sec CD with built in evade which is simply stupid – it makes roamers job impossible and Anet idea of roamers was that they are squishy due to mobility and then we have druid that is super tanky in comparison and can cover 2 points easily not to mention rev dog that can port on top of you making kiting impossible.
Reduce pet dmg and making it scale with ranger stats. Druid RTL needs to be on 60 sec CD at least.
I think you are mistaken. Druid teleport skill needs a cd of 6 secs, and not a second more. Theirs pets can use some buffs, for example they should be the way they are PLUS additionally get some bonus stats from their masters. They can actually use some more defensive stats and healing ofc.
On the other hand, we have a bad case of elementalist meta. They are simply too strong. FA build destroys anything it touches, while having a lot of mobility, hp and sustain.
Staff build does a lot of aoe dmg, has a lot of escapes, a lot of zoning abilities, dueling abilities and surelly a lot of defence.
D/D is op as hell. You can get in a fight kill everyone and dont even loose single hp point. Besides with all that mobility that RTL provides, eles are surelly too strong.The only thing on eles that needs to be buffed is support heal auramancer build. Not enough heals, not enough scaling, and mb make the gameplay more passive, cause now they have to rly rely on their skills (to use them in the right moment).
You do realize they don’t understand sarcasm? Last year we made nerf thief thread as a joke, the suggestion there were pretty absurd so it was pretty clear for anyone that knows the game that is was just for fun – devs actually look it serious and implemented changes proposed there.
Druid balanced perfectly —-- ahahahahahahahahaha; NO, just no. Pet deals too much dmg for how bunkery druid is. They still have RTL on 18 sec CD with built in evade which is simply stupid – it makes roamers job impossible and Anet idea of roamers was that they are squishy due to mobility and then we have druid that is super tanky in comparison and can cover 2 points easily not to mention rev dog that can port on top of you making kiting impossible.
Reduce pet dmg and making it scale with ranger stats. Druid RTL needs to be on 60 sec CD at least.
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I wish I could kill an evenly skilled Rev as a Guardian…
It does
It absolutely does not, at least, not in 1v1’s where both have equal footing. A good Rev will demolish a good DH every time. In conquest we (maybe?) have the advantage if we land our bursts first.
I can list at least 3 good meta rev players who can kill any meta dh build 1v1. Amber league, sure, dh wins.
It’s an equal matchup, as simple as that
Yeah too bad that revs are still best class to pick for teamplay.
Choking bomb was nerfed couple years ago – Anet thinks it is OP somehow. Meanwhile in real world, where the current state of the game is and not somewhere in devs mind, we have things like DH traps…
Thing is i don’t think they will change or revert anything for thief that makes sense. Anet doesn’t want thief to be capable to fight anything in 1v1 situation due to mobility (and absolutely ignore the fact that lot of HoT builds have some kind of mobility so at the end thief has like 1 sec before enemy arrives while being so much weaker). It is actually a miracle that we can 1v1 some classes on first place but it only happened because everyone was crying about those classes and they got nerfed which was kind of indirect buff to thief.
I honestly think the creation of revs how they were (oh thief should only +1 and decap empty points because of mobility but heyyyyyy revs have much mobility + best fighting class in game) and the massives nerfs to thieves (acro was turned to garbage to introduce acro v2 as DD) in HoT was biggest middle finger i have seen in any game from balancing team in all my years of gaming. The patches just proved over and over thief class players are not wanted here, the class is not desired here and devs really don’t know wth to do with it.
Personally, I don’t care about the stealth stacking and long lasting stealth as much as I do about stealthing every 3 seconds. Constant stealth and losing your target is by far the most annoying thing in the game, even more than non stop CC. And constant stealth also gives a much more significant fighting advantage than stealthing for a long time because you can burst more frequently with a surprise. Got a solution for that too?
Constant blocks, heals, invuls, perma weaknesss, aoe, stability, CCs are by far more annoying. Thieves don’t have anything but stealth and dodges. Go make a thief and play vs DHs, wars and co. in pvp – you would want to pull your hair out. Retargeting is easy, this is really l2p issue and not balancing one.
Constantly stealthing doesn’t save thief from taking damage unlike blocks or invuls, nor it heals thief for absurd amounts (sup DHs). Those burst attacks from stealth have stealth requirement, crit requirement and positional requirement (be in melee aka eat AoE, behind the target). Imagine your high damaging attacks would require you to be in melee behind the target but you wouldn’t have any invuls or blocks and would have very little heal. And in most cases you would land maybe a 3-4k bs because of perma weakness and protection. There is a reason why bs is actually not as used as much as you would think it would be. What kills you is AA not bs.
when was the last time u see a DEV thief running around?
Couple months ago in video from Helseth playing thief. They faced team of Anet devs in unranked i think. Helseth made to his goal to keep devs dead in that match. One of the dev played thief actually. Fun fact, after Helseth unranked farm balance patch came out that nerfed every single stealth attack from thieves – what a coincidence~
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No need for any of that, i run full zerk in fractals. S/P for trash with condi clears on evade and malice, staff/sp/pp for bosses (depending which boss). Honestly, i am usually only person alive when my groups wipe and have to finish the encounters myself. The problem, as far as fractals goes, is between monitor and chair.
Long stealth from SA and Shadow Refuge. Access to mobility via Shadowstep.
+1 is easy because you don’t need to be max DPS to effectively +1 if you know what you are doing.
Shadowstep CD is too long to make for mobility not to mention you need to save it for stunbreak. By the time CD is back i probably decaped enemy far 3 times as DrD.
What will you give up for SA? DA since trickery is mandatory? Good bye improvisation, good bye dmg, good bye mug, good bye immob – all things needed to be somehow ok in fights. In many cases you are not going to instagib someone alone due to passives. Just because you +1 doesn’t mean fight will end instantly – you need to be somehow capable of surviving in the fight a bit and put some pressure besides initial backstab. Once again, SA is also completely deleted in fights thanks to revs and scrappers. I play core from time to time w/o DrD, SA just can’t keep up.
I’ve seen SA power thieves with high burst. Just saying…
yeah and i haven’t seen a single SA thief in high tiers (besides myself) since HoT came out because it is not viable in pvp vs half decent players
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And that is a problem, although I can say that if you are talking roaming stealth isn’t as important as:
SB + Shadowstep + UC + SA (cooldown reduction on SS to 40 seconds).
If thief is truly only good at roaming decap then thieves should actually spec for that role. And if they can’t do anything else that is a problem for theory crafters and balancing to fix.
You don’t take SA because you need mobility for roaming which is provided by DD. You also can’t take it because rev and scrappers can potentially reveal you. Problem with pvp – enemy team can not know where you go. You can’t +1 and decap effectively if they know where you are hence why long stealth AND mobility are must have. You also need to be able to stay in fights for few sec or you can’t +1 so just making full build only just for running around the map and stealthing at costs of fghting capability is not an option.
Try to fight premade with ts as a thief – holy hell it is painful since they always keep track on you and long stealth is only saving grace.
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If long stealth isn’t a problem in sPvP why are you arguing that a slight nerf to long stealth—and only the perma stealth at that—would damage sPvP. It is a contradiction, either you think long stealth adjustments won’t matter and therefore the nerf won’t actually be a problem or you think long stealth is required.
Stealth gyro has one main flaw in that the gyro is not itself stealthed. Counterplay includes aoe, killing the gyro, or otherwise immobilizing the gyro to expose the engineer. And they are part of the reason why reveals are being added. I think the stealth gyro should be fairly vulnerable to damage, but that is a separate balance discussion from this.
Because it limits roaming capability of thief in pvp – and it is only role they have there.
I want to use this thread as gathering of ideas for thief changes that class could really use imo. I am talking mainly from pvp perspective. These are mainly small changes but i think they still could place thief in a bit better position than they are now (which low tier).
Here we go.
The dagger off-hand needs more utility and not just flat out dmg buffs – which is lazy solution and doesn’t solve anything.
- Dagger off hand – i think CnD should apply blind. I understand that it would be redundant with cloaked in shadows – but that trait right now really can’t compete with other traits in same tier and d/d, s/d could use some help.
- Dancing dagger – should apply short immob if enemy is hit from the side or back. While d/d and s/d have some mobility i feel like they still have hard times keeping with enemies atm, especially taking HoT specs into account. The other choice would be giving dancing dagger a blind or boon strip.
Stolen spells:
my problem with stolen spells is that they are very very outdated. They were balanced around builds that were used in first year or so. The game changed a lot and they barely got any upgrade if even. The idea of stolen spells is to help to fight those classes that we stole them from but nowadays it is hardly the case.
- Throw gunk – the field should stip boons, kind of like necro well. Reason: while gunk can be bit useful for condi thieves overall it is huge lackluster imo, in fact it can get you killed easily due to reveal. It also gets completely ignored by engi. If it stripped boons it would help a bit to fight engis on point and make engis actually have bit of respect for the spell.
- Healing seed – remove CD. I love this spell, it is great for team utility but CD makes improvisation completely redudant. I really don’t see any good reason why it is on CD on first place. Other change i would propose is make healing seed area destroy projectiles – more group utility.
- Head crack – should ignore block. With abundance of sustain, blocks etc. added with HoT i see no reason why this spell is still blocked.
- Whirling axe – fix this spell already, i still can’t stop it with cancel animation and have to waste dodges on it.
- Ice stab – should place chilling field on successful hit where target is. That way won’t just shrug chill away and would have to move at least.
Utilities and other:
- Shadow refuge – should destroy projectiles. It won’t stop aoe but it will prove more group utility for pvp and raids imo.
- Infiltrator signet – add unblockable on next attack on activation. Real lackluster atm given HoT.
- Scorpion wire – make it like DH pull, just apply torment instead of burns.
Traits:
- Bountiful Theft – should apply same amont of boons thief stole, e.g. if thief stole 22 might stacks then thief should gain 22 might stacks. It would give edge to thieves that pay attention and enemies to make sure they cover their stacks.
- Shadows Embrace should remove all condis instead of just dps, however condis with most stacks are prioritized (e.g. 22 bleeds over cripple). Problem is, since SE change and HoT launch there is so much cripple, chill, weakness etc. flying around in form of aoe and passive that you are pretty much forced to DD instead of SA.
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Because the stealth from CnD ends after 3-4 seconds. There is a moment where you come out of stealth and are visible. It lets a player know where you are and lets them start a channeled attack on you.
Also, I’m not a D/D anything. I run P/D in fact.
You still haven’t really addressed the basic argument that revealed skills are being put into the game in part because of long term stealth mechanics of D/P. Each patch has consistently moved more in that direction and thieves that can’t use those mechanics are rightfully wary of the direction that balance is going in.
My preferred method is actually to decrease the BP duration to three seconds and reduce the interval on blind to one second. This buffs the blind by one extra pulse and reduces the stacking potential. I don’t like ICD, and I’ve come to realize this idea is not a great one because of the impact it would have on blast finishers.
And we should have a “Top Three Buffs Thief Needs” thread.
Revealed added to revs and scrappers had mainly following reasons imo:
1. to delete SA trait line and enforce DD thus encourage sales
2. to delete thieves from pvp and replace them with revs thus encourage sales
3. sneak gyro was given to scappers which is SR on steroids
Nothing stops you from cnd again right before stealth runs out, you can use it on literary anything hitable (critters, mesmer clones, enemy, NPCs etc.). Once again, long stealth is not issue in pvp (where balance does matter actually) because
1. you give enemy breathing room
2. you potentially lose point = lose game
That is exactly what d/d lovers want. I can’t have nice things – so other shouldn’t neither.
WE ONLY HAVE ONE THIEF SET!! EVERY OTHER PLAYER SHOULD QUIT THE GAME DEAL WITH IT!!! WE KNOW YOU’RE RIGHT BUT WILL NEVER ADMIT IT _ WE WILL RATHER CALL YOU ALL NAMES POSSIBLE!!!
./facepalm
Never i said every other thief should quit game. I am all up for other weapon sets to get buffed (e.g. CnD get blind) and i think you shouldn’t be wasting time and efforts to get only set that is semi viable in high tiers nerfed but instead use that energy to make devs improve other sets. Also shouty caps, ts ts. Is your face ok?
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@Jana:
- staff has crap load of aoe dmg with evade – no other set has it. D/D has absurd amount of evades with little punishment window – no other set can do it. S/D can strip boons – no other set can do it. The logic is garbage. I highly suspect reveals were added because of sneak gyro tbh. Nothing stops other weapons sets from using stealth….. d/d, s/d have cnd; p/p, s/p have bp + bound – d/p isn’t only set that can profit from SA.
- Brb looking for quite from 2-3 years ago. So far they have been balancing around pve and pvp and i doubt it will change. WvW is too volatile anyway and has too many variables so it makes balancing there impossible anyway. D/P is viable in pvp not because of stealth stacking but because of utility. S/D was also viable due to utility but got dunked due to acro nerfs. I honestly can’t believe you actually claim stealth is issue in pvp where pvp is all about point holding and only time you use stealth there is to avoid major CDs like rampage, for roaming, group spikes and saving teammates from stomps – yeaaaah let’s nerf the bit of team utility thief brings to pvp for the sake of some wvw duels.
- But it means they are not attacking for 12 sec – plenty of time for enemy to heal up, get CDs back, cap point, rez teammates etc. What is your point?
- Point i SR provides more utility than just selfish bp+hs spam. Also to profit from bp+hs you need to trait SR – which is bad idea in pvp (unless you don’t have HoT).
- Wait, so the d/p should be balanced around how it is fair vs other thief builds but completely ignore that there are other classes in this game that are in most cases by far superior to thief? Are you serious now? Like, are you for real now? Holy cow, GET OUT OF YOUR WVW DUELING MINDSET, there are other things out there than just wvw duels.
- And you resort to flaming when you don’t have any argument left.
- Or they could just nerf your beloved d/d. DrD needs a nerf but together with other elite specs. Also, still doesn’t change my point that most complains i see right now are about evades and not stealth.
- Once again, most nerf cries i see right now are about your beloved d/d and staff/bound spammers so i would argue about your point. The d/d lovers ask for d/p nerfs only for the sake of thief vs thief duels, that is all i see. Also, what would dueling you prove exactly? 2 people dueling doesn’t prove anything at all, alone due to skill difference and small sample pool.
edit: ahahahahahahaha calls me immature and says L2P – golden.
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So how will that help the other sets that DP gets nerfed thats will only make Theif worse buff the other sets instead of nerfing our only viabale set?
Because they have to buff thief if they nerf D/P.
Hahahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahahahahaha. Ah, that was a good one.
Nerfing stealth won’t affect other weapon sets as much as d/p, so why would they then go and buff other weapon sets? We will just get another crippled weaponset.
Reading this thread I feel like there is at least 10 developers pitching in because of how you all set your mind at the idea that if d/p gets nerf everything else will become competitive all of the sudden.
That is exactly what d/d lovers want. I can’t have nice things – so other shouldn’t neither.
See, you agree to it, but i highly doubt other necro players would like it. People don’t like when things change drastically. Look at recent patch – there weren’t really MAJOR changes but cries are insane and effect sometimes is bigger than you would think, especially in pve.
As far as role concept go, it was actually fine, the reason why we ended up with less build diversity IS because people wanted to have everything from every class – so Anet did it, they introduced homogenization. Scrappers got stealth, druids got support spec with high mobility, revs have everything but stealth basically etc. which resulted in players being forced to run elite specs – diversity dead.
depending on how the healing would be applied it would allow permashroud builds in pve as if it wasnt already possible now..
it would have an impact on pvp and wwe because necro could actually survive better in teamfights.. and i doubt the impact would be too big especially not in pvp since under focus fire a full shroud bar lasts for only for about 5s..
i agree a big change like this will need balancing yes. never said anything else. Im just making a point that for the sake of build diversity radical changes need to take place.. and healing in shroud would be a good thing to start with. the timing couldnt be better
My point – do you really think other necros would be willing to give up certain things (e.g. HP pool, dmg, etc.) for heals in shroud? I really doubt it. Don’t underestimate the masses. Yes, forum population are loud but they are tiny part of the population, most people are actually quite happy with game or just don’t care that is why they don’t bother going to forums on first place. Majority don’t like big changes – it would cause mass protests, it had happened in the past.
Ask the people who complain, not me – I say the stealth duration D/P has got at hand is too much and should be adressed. There’s other issues with D/P but lets stay on topic stealth.
Why do you think it is too much? How did you come to such conclusion.? How much is too much? Who are you to dictate the numbers?
Is it really rocket science? I already said that I have 12 s of stealth without SA with D/P and 4 leaps, that’s as long as the duration of SR which is a gigantic red circle people can hit or get me out of. No other set can do that. And not only that, also D/D has to decide between CiS and SRej which nowadays comes with initative regen, so a D/P thief traited in SA can stealth endlessly. Reveal skills were brought in because of stealth which wasn’t that much of a problem back in the day because we only had 2 full traitlines, so most thieves didn’t use trickery. Reveal skills do make sense against engis and probably mesmers – they’d also make sense if they had the usual reveal duration of 3/4 s – but thief is built around stealth – so these skills destroy a good part of what is thief. Still all people see is thieves who have got an easy and extended acess to stealth, which is D/P, and call for nerfs for stealth, while it’s only D/P that is the problem.
Who said 12 sec is too much? What is too much for? You still didn’t answer my questions – you just post random claims without anything to back them up.
In pve stealth is not issue, in pvp neither since if thief does stealth for so long they usually do it to go decap other point. WvW? Last time i checked devs stated that wvw will never be balanced, not to mention you got way to detect thieves in wvw.
Also, if d/p thief did stealth for whatever reason for 12 sec – they are sitting at 0 ini, they gave up interrupts, they gave up gap closers and blinds. There IS a trade off.
SR is a good spell, only reason why it is weaker now is because of scrappers/revs reveal on demand and more AoE added with HoT. SR also provides more than just stealth, t gives regen, it gives life steal field, it stops teammates from being stomped – so no, HS+BP is nowhere comparable to SR.
D/D doesn’t have to decide between those, you don’t even have to run SA on first place. Also, i would bet that most d/p actually run da/tr/dd and not SA unless it is ghost thief – once again wvw issue – game is not balanced around wvw, wvw provides ways to deal with stealth.
Most thieves didn’t use trickery? Really? Where do you pull those numbers from? What a bunch of bs. Trickery was mandatory for years, at least in pvp. Are wvw thieves are majority of populaton now, once again where do you pull those numbers from? Did all of them used everything but trickery? Highly doubtful. I ran trickery in wvw, all thieves in my roaming guild ran trickery, not to mention when s/d was strong they also all ran trickery – it is small pool but proves that thieves did ran trickery in wvw.
Actually people call for dodge and evades nerfs nowadays because of condi d/d and vault/bound spammers.
Look at that, only people that ask for d/p nerfs are d/d wvw die hards. Only reason they ask for it is because d/p gives them hard times not because it is for some greater good. The world should burn and thieves in other games modes should be doomed as long as d/d die hards can have edge over d/p – that is all what it boils down to.
Why did i never see you wvw heroes making thread after thread about d/d stealthing endlessly off keep walls? Hmmmm? Actually this was main culprit for most cries about stealth in wvw on first place.
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Ask the people who complain, not me – I say the stealth duration D/P has got at hand is too much and should be adressed. There’s other issues with D/P but lets stay on topic stealth.
Why do you think it is too much? How did you come to such conclusion.? How much is too much? Who are you to dictate the numbers?
See, you agree to it, but i highly doubt other necro players would like it. People don’t like when things change drastically. Look at recent patch – there weren’t really MAJOR changes but cries are insane and effect sometimes is bigger than you would think, especially in pve.
As far as role concept go, it was actually fine, the reason why we ended up with less build diversity IS because people wanted to have everything from every class – so Anet did it, they introduced homogenization. Scrappers got stealth, druids got support spec with high mobility, revs have everything but stealth basically etc. which resulted in players being forced to run elite specs – diversity dead.
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Except reaper with pocket healer can murder whole team pretty quickly, the aoe pressure is just insane if you let necro do his thing. Me on necro and some druid were farming enemy team at their far almost all match. The druid could keep me alive long enough for all my aoe and condis to kill everything that dared to come to far, no matter how outnumbered we were. I shudder to think how broken necro would be if they could heal in shroud.
to your example.. hotjoin I guess? pre chill nerf probably
necro condi firepower took a 30% nerf by removing chill damage. but that was a necessary nerf dont wanna argue that one.
besides that there are other classes having potential superior aoe firehouse options than necro. but they are better at serving other roles (ele for example..) than dps. look at pve dps ranking you wont belive how bad nec damage actually is.. with the druid support I bet you could have done that far farming on staff ele/fresh air tempest too just to give you 2 examples.. or meta revenant if you wanna have a viable meta build as an example..
necro only has the dps role because it cant do kitten against focus fire. because of bad design. it cannot play bunker/bruiser because it doesnt support well and still dies to easy outside of 1v1. nec only can do dps-debuffer. and now not anymore..
No, actually legend division, this season, thank you very much. I haven’t touched HJs in years.
I don’t think i could have done that far farming on ele simply due to ele having low HP – you can actually instagib them where as necro you still get a second or two before you go down. You also can go in shroud where ele can’t. Dps ele also can’t deal with condis as well.
Thing with meta rev, it is mostly single target, where as necro you can pressure whole point which allowed us to fight multiple enemies on first place. Revs are also weak against condis, a lot of people run condi builds nowadays, as necro i can actually just xfer all that cancer back at enemy.
Welcome to role concept. Eles can’t play anything but support atm, same with druids basically. Thieves are there to decap empty points. Necros are team fight dps. You think in other games it is any different? Take LoL for example, you have to have support to babysit main dps for half of them game until they get fed otherwise they would spend whole game at spawn. If necros had too much sustain they would be warriors with insane AoE pressure – how about no. Each class has a weakness for reason, without it we would just have 8 necros per match like in s2. Be happy you have a role, especially considering necros are part of ESL/pro league comps, thieves and wars didn’t have any at all in s1-s2.
If you think necros should be buffed, how about we give eles and thieves 28k HP, or gives revs condi xfer on AA and see how you like it.
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A Thief that complains rev is still op.
Give me a break.
You don’t even have to face retrib rev anymore.The fact is you can’t beat the matchup you counter which means you’re bad, not that rev is op.
You realize thief is not only class in this game?
As daredevil:
- Warriors – too many passives, too much sustain, too much dmg. Even if you avoid their burst somehow (although krait runes still go through dodges because logic) they just have sooooooo much sustain, can’t blind them due to zerker stance, can’t do dmg to them due to multiple endure pains, can’t interrupt them due to high access to stab, sure you can sit them out in stealth but they heal like mad during that time. It is just impossible unless warrior is really really bad, like afk bad.
- DHs (any kind) – no matter how bad they are their passives and literary mindless facerolling on keyboard allows even bad DH have upper hand vs thief (too much aoe, too many passives, overloaed traps, blocks, blinds, heals). Good DH? don’t even bother. Bad DH?killable but takes waaaaayyy too long.
- Druid – you can kill only afk or really bad druid. The pet deals thief dmg, the lazer beam deals insane amount of dmg for squishy thief and tracks you in stealth for another good 3-4 sec (not to mention the bug that allows druid to keep lazer on you whole match , even across the map, unless you relog). Unavoidable dazes, blinds, too many heals, endure pain, stab. This is one of those fights you just can’t win given the same skill level.
- Scrapper – too much aoe, too much dmg, too much sustain. They have backstab dmg on pretty much every spell on hammer and hammer is also overloaded with utility like evades or dazes. Then there is high uptime on retal that will sure you take a lot of dmg even if you avoided scrappers attacks. Blinding is pointless due to passive condi removal, interrupting is usually also not an option as they just get stab. Then they also have reveal on short CD which pretty much deletes entire trait line from thief – still can’t believe what devs did just for the sake of sales. Even greedy company like Blizz didn’t go such road as effectively to delete class to enforce artificial demand for other class and so motivate sales.
Everything mentioned above is just no go, like, these classes make me want to quit games all honestly. The mechanics are just so absurdly overtuned that it is like trying to break a 3 meter thick wall with a pillow. No matter how good you are you just won’t win those fights unless enemy is basically afk.
The following classes are manageable.
- Thief – this is either completely easy if thief is not really good or extremely hard if they are good. Good thief will get away if it gets too hot but you can easily 100-0 a bad thief. The skill gap between thieves i have seen in same divisions is just insane.
- Mesmers – unless mesmer is really really good (sup Frosty, Misha, Helseth and co.) they are actually fairly killable. They are also very predictable in most cases. Basi allows to break block, you get plenty of dodges to avoid most of the shatters, double plasma is lovely vs those however you need withdraw and generosity sigils to fight mes. Stealth and interrupts obviously help as well vs them. It is however is a bit longer fight as you need to get through invuls and shatters first. If you don’t land steal it is GG, better reset. If they land moa you might die, problem with moa is the animation of the spell plays when moa is already in effect, better mesmers also hide it behind stuns or just clutter.
- Revs – i would put them in same category as mes. Bad rev is free kill, good or half-decent rev can instagib you if you don’t pay attention or rev got lucky lol. I think thief has pretty good chance to beat rev if they are both on same skill level.
- Necros – not much to say, spam interrupts on them, stealth or kite through DS – dead necro. It might be rough if they start the fight with full DS and land their condi bomb but really the fight is more about patience.
- Eles just don’t do enough dmg if you interrupt overload and main dmg and heal spells. It is bit similar to fighting bunker guard, you just pressure them constantly until they run out of CDs and you finish them. Long fight but nothing hard.
From core thief perspective it is completely different story. Every single fight is extremely hard since you don’t have dodges nor dmg on interrupts. Reveal on demand from rev and scrapper make it often impossible to even bother going in fights. Mobility is also not as high as on DD so all HoT specs (sup druids) can easily catch up to you.
@OP: i can tell you why thieves sometimes randomly dodge w/o dodging anything – they expect you to attack them with some major spell. Problem with thief is if anything lands on them they are toast in most cases so you need to pre-dodge anything enemy throws at you (e.g. DH port nukes, rev port + staff 5).
I am against proposed change. Reaper is already pretty hard to kill if they have pocket healer in form of druid, engi (for rezzes) or ele (and necro is my most played character after thief btw). Yes, necros don’t deal well with focus fire and they are not as mobile but every class has to have some kind of weakness. Remember s2 when it was pita to kill necros? We don’t need that again. Last thing this game needs is more powercreep.
If necros start to heal in shroud it can be abused so much no matter in which form you implement it. If you want heals in shroud then say good bye to high HP pool and embrace the 11k club.
almost every build will be hard to kill if it has a pocket healer around.. maybe exept for thief builds but this class has other advantages
I agree allowing full heal for necro in shroud will require balancing. maybe reducing overall lifeforce gain to reduce shroud uptime but I think necro comminity would trade this any day any time..
Except reaper with pocket healer can murder whole team pretty quickly, the aoe pressure is just insane if you let necro do his thing. Me on necro and some druid were farming enemy team at their far almost all match. The druid could keep me alive long enough for all my aoe and condis to kill everything that dared to come to far, no matter how outnumbered we were. I shudder to think how broken necro would be if they could heal in shroud.