With the warrior rush going 1200 distance. Evene if you had the max move speed difference of you swifted and them chilled it would still mean that at the end of their rush it would still take you almost 6s to catch up to them unless you used a similar movement skills.
Its because they are not damaging conditions by default only through traits. They will have to rebalance the number on them so they dont get outshined and made obsolete by all the other ones.
Intensity stacking for chill and cripple and immobilize and fear is a big nerf
They never said those condition are now stacking in intensity, only burn and poisons damage part.
They are keeping the 25 stack limit or vulnerability which means that vulnerability stacking weapons, aka axe, are still pointless
considering that :
We will significantly lower the base damage on damaging conditions while increasing how much they scale with the condition-damage stat. This means at lower levels of condition damage you can expect to do less damage than you currently do, while at higher values you’ll do even more damage than you are currently able to. The formulas are still being adjusted, but to give you an idea, the break-even point before you start doing more damage is around 700 condition damage.
with high condi damage you will be doing more condi damage than now as well as now being able to increase that by a max of 25%. Vulnerability just because more useful especially as we can put out a lot of it and it would have a better effect on carrion builds because it working on both types of damage. axe still blows though yeah..
So with 700 condi damage you would do the same damage as now and anything below would result in less damage. This mean RIP celestial builds who rely on these for extra damage?
Also if they do more damage than now over 700 points and affected by vulnerability this will be HUGE for certain classes. Can really imagine some excellent builds coming out because of this!
Depending on how much you cna get them to do this will really make condi damage viable since some classes can reach 1400~2k+ condi damage
To me there’s no reason at all to take Greatsword. The best goodies are in the Reaper Shroud. The pull on greatsword is kind of cool mind you but I’d rather not be stuck with a melee only weapon when I have lots of melee only stuff in shroud already. Its sticking too many eggs in that basket.
You could make the same argument for dagger since that is a melee weapon. The Greatsword will have its place since there are some very neat tricks you can do with it based on what we have been shown. It also has the highest range of any true melee weapon that has been shown. Most others are at 130 or 150 where as its at 170.
On the deaths charge. Everything that Bellamy has said i agree with and its what makes the skill good, especially the poison uptime nearing 100%. Would also like to add that the reapers effective range to start being a pest is 600 range. How effective they are then proportionally increases the closer they get. This skill will drop you within 600 range of your target and this skill is also avaliable every time you go into shroud because of its extremely low cooldown.
Nor do you get any evade while you are charging. You’re actually a sitting duck like the ranger sword auto attack root.
Guys we know for a fact an amulet doesnt have to have the same stats as in pve. Look at zerk it has vit, valk has no vit at all but has toughness. It goes on as a theme for a few amulets and dire could be the same.
Stats we know come in 4 types:
Primary stats are 932
Secondary stats are 650
Tertiary stats are 451
Quaternary stats are 331
It would be fine to add the amulet with the correct combination of attributes as long as they are in the right tier as to not be over powered. Having more of the 26 stat combo that are avaliable in pve in pvp actually would improve build diversity as long as they are implemented correctly. We already have had added assassins, sentinals, cavaliers and magi why not more to come.
2. we are losing 300 condition damage from traits
- These are not base stats so they are not part of the stat increase being done, they are just gone, straight up nerf.
You are wrong here. Only base stat thinng happening is primary attributes going from 926 to 1000. Secondry attributes get nothing BUT they are including the loss of stats from traitlines onto gear so as long as you are taking condition gear or amulet then your condition damage stat will be roughly the same as it is now.
3. 100% increase from lingering curses makes condition duration food and runes and sigils useless since it caps at 100%. The devs said they “may remove the cap in the future”, so basically they aren’t removing it, meaning you will be taking a big hit if you take this trait just to get back the 300 condition damage you were just nerfed.
We have yet to see how it would interact with other durations. The main reason for this is because its in the same line a hemophilia and it would make that minor trait redundant and thats not something i think they would overlook.
Reapers will have to run some sort of condition duration increase.
Otherwise chill will not last long enough for reapers to benefit from it.
Reapers have an innate +20% condition duration because of cold shoulder. This means that even with -33% traits they stil last 87% of their duration. Even taking melendru runes only drops its to 62% which is brought back up to 98% by taking grenth or ice runes. Depending on runes and sigils on both the attacking and defending side reapers will have anywhere from 62%~170% chill duration.
Sure burning does more damage, but with Reaper, chill uptime is more important.
Explain why..?
Lingering Curse will give you plenty of condition duration for dhuumfire. As others have said the synergy between reaper traits and chill uptime can’t be understated along with how debilitating -66% movement/skill recharge can be. Finally staff has a good chill application and having Runes of Grenth would be more important for that reason alone.
oh you were on about runes. yeah grenth runes on a condi build will be great and ice runes on power builds will be as well. I learned exatcly how condition duration works today. All our chills have a very high base duration so even with -duration people are still going to be chilled for a very long time, especially with how easily it is reapplied.
If lingering curse works as it does now and increases base condi duration things will be insane with chills lasting 8~15s. For every 3s in real time someone chilled’s cooldown only drop by 1s so it increases the cooldown time by 3×. 8~15s of having your skills cooling down 3x slower is going to kill a lot of people.
I still think condi builds are going to go a few ways. Chill terror burst with like grenth runes or burn lingering curse sustain with elementalist runes.
I think with the normalization of stats from amulets only we will see more of them coming into pvp. More builds avaliable and more diversity. This will be great.
Exactly!
The math for that would be
+40% would give it +4 seconds
-100% would give it -10 seconds
10 +4 – 10 = 4
The takeaway is this … you can essentially be nearly immune to these conditions from anyone that is not taking +condition duration … so you are unlikely to have to worry about these conditions from an opponent running a power build … which helps you avoid their burst.
I play warrior and necro mostly so this fascinates me when combined with reapers chill output. Thanks for the lesson guys
Well it depends on how lingering curse works. If it works like now you can get like 9s burns which isnt short. Are you talking about Chill damage. Its not that strong only about 33%~66% of terror and doesn’t stack in intensity 2 stacks of burn will outdamage it and are arguably easier to land. .
After learning how condi duration correctly works today in relation to increases and decreases i have more confidence in reapers ability to chill people as well as its application as a damage condition.
I think he said if your enemy have a skill that gives 5 sec chill and had food with + 40 % duration you will have 7 sec of chill. All the food / traits that gives less condition duration take effect on the 5 sec chill and not on the 7 sec chill.
So 5 sec – 40% less duration (lemon grass) = 3 sec chill – 15% (Melandru Rune) = 2.55 Sec chill – 33% (DM) = 1.7 sec chill (with the 2 seconds from + 40% duration it would be 3.7 sec chill).
So you will never be imune to movement conditions. To all other condition you should remove the -33% from DM.
If the Removal % stack together then 40% + 15% + 33% = 88%
So unless its cleansed people will be chilled a whole lot more than i originally though.
I also didnt know :
While chilled, skill cooldowns additionally progress at a 66% slower rate; i.e. for every 3 seconds chilled, only 1 second of cooldown will have expired.
So as long as you can chill someone you triple their cooldowns!
Rune of Ice and Rune of Grenth are good shouts as well as Sigil of Ice or Sigil of chilling. Even rune of the elementalist for dhuumfire deathly chill builds. 50~70%+ chill duration will be easy.
Thanks Sigmoid. Not sure if the life gain would be worth it in the end but it is something I’m willing to play around with and see how it goes.
The life gain is actually huge. On a chilled target you get 2 stacks of might + 1% life force per swing and another 2 stacks if they are below 50% ( from wtaching the reaper video siphoned power has a 2s internal cooldown and decent duration since he keeps up 16 stacks with it alone. ). So by the end of the auto chain can have 10stacks of might, gained up to 12% LF and gained 1330HP all in 2.5~2.1s. Further sustain from from spiteful renewal below 25% at 2khp every 5s.
Im excited for the core changes as well as reaper. Sustain
Keeping in mind that Life Rend, Life Slash and Life Reap replace Life Blast and hit every 1/2 second. Seems like a lot of Might stacking / life gain.
The entire chain is 2.5~2.1s long depending on if you have the attack speed trait so its not as fast as you think but still fast. But you can still stack 25might on yourself alone very easily.
I think he said if your enemy have a skill that gives 5 sec chill and had food with + 40 % duration you will have 7 sec of chill. All the food / traits that gives less condition duration take effect on the 5 sec chill and not on the 7 sec chill.
So 5 sec – 40% less duration (lemon grass) = 3 sec chill – 15% (Melandru Rune) = 2.55 Sec chill – 33% (DM) = 1.7 sec chill (with the 2 seconds from + 40% duration it would be 3.7 sec chill).
So you will never be imune to movement conditions. To all other condition you should remove the -33% from DM.
If the Removal % stack together then 40% + 15% + 33% = 88%
With Dhuumfire, in fact Reaper’s Shroud will probably be the only way to make Dhuumfire a viable trait considering there will no longer be an icd and Reaper has a much faster cleaving auto attack.
Also, keep in mind burning is rumored to get a nerf in dps per stack. Dhuumfire could end up largely useless, still. Necromancer has no other source, anyway.
I would rather change Dhuumfire from burning to chill/frost DoT to integrate better with the profession.
Watch the guard video you can see with no condi damage it does 150 a tick. With condi damage and +33% it does just over 400~500 damage a stack. Scales down to about 300~350 a stack without the +33%. Considering reaper shroud auto will allow you to keep up between 4~12 stacks depending on traits and runes its a lot of damage. Like A LOT.
With Dhuumfire, in fact Reaper’s Shroud will probably be the only way to make Dhuumfire a viable trait considering there will no longer be an icd and Reaper has a much faster cleaving auto attack.
Could work. Just looked at the repear traits for the first time though. Amazed how bad they are. Look at chilling force kitten . It only grants 1% life force and you have to strike a chilled foe. Which is rare to happen seen as they have to not cleanse chill and you have to land an attack. Seems stupid to me.
Same for blighters boon. The numbers are just too low I think personally.
They aren’t, check this out:
There are 5 targets on a point. A ranger, a pet and a mesmers with clones. Or an engi that used turret, whatever. Chiliblains chills 5 targets. Then mark of blood, putrid mark and reaper’s mark grant 30% life force and 15 stacks of might with those 2 traits. Did you have soul marks? Then it’s 42% life force in 2 seconds or so, assuming you took those traits. Then you can get in with reaper’s shroud and 111 them all, healing you like mad. Might for ever chilled for you hit, 139 health for each hit. Multiply by 5 for each swing. The numbers get pretty big pretty quickly.
Reaper clearly isn’t a 1v1 class but it has some potential in groups. And stronghold.
Doesnt the bottom line disapear when you take repear? So no soul marks. Our one good minor trait in the game we lose too.
As for your scenario. in reality that will never happen. Although I take your point. Blighters boon is conceptually very very strong. But you wont use it in a condi spec because I assume deathly chill will become kind of required in a condi spec provided it scales decently with condi damage. It needs to do similar damage to terror at the minimum.
No the bottom line doesnt vans en you take reaper :/ Reaper is esentiay just another trait line, you get to pick 3 out of the 6 we will have so you can take soul reaping to get soul marks and dhuumfire, curses for condi things and reaper.
Deathly chill does 33% of terror damage and 66% if the target is under 50% hp. Sticking with the theme the weaker they get the stronger we are.
You will see a mixture of this trait or blighters boon on condi builds because if you spec for chill you will put it out everywhere for extra damage or you can go for the extra sustain of blighters since not only can you grant yourself boons but other classes will be throwing them everywhere especially in team fights where reapers are supposed to work best. Just some rough numbers but blighters boon and RS#4 can heal you for like 7k+hp depending on targets and chilled.
Thief should get applied updated energy system from revenant;
-Utilities now cost small amount of ini
-Some weapon skills that are obviously strong should have a short cd (between 2-5cd) to prevent it from spamming
This way it will force thief to think what hes doing and he will also be affected by chill and interrupts from mes.
Like for example inf arrow entering on 2cd after each use.
@Sigmoid: It is also a shroud skill, correct? Admittedly thinking more 1v1. Thief would probably be the hardest class to get life force out of.
Also it’s not terribly long, but the moment stability is no longer pulsing is the moment thief can daze. Ofc doesn’t change that pulsing stability is very nice. Can’t wait to try it out.
Indeed but it is one of the skills with the highest stab uptime in the game so you can use that argument on everyone. It also stops the steal→ skull combo from working at all. Also how difficult it is to get lf from a theif depends on what they do as well as your build since reapers have very high lf generation that scales well with number of targets as well as number of allies. The bigger the fight the better off you will be for lf as a reaper.
@MonkeyButtFace
To elaborate on this GS #5 has a wide enough range that it will pull people out from the entire shadow refuge.
How often will reaper have access to stability? Can’t a thief wait it out?
Supposing thief does get some form of sniper specialization…
As it currently is its either 11/28s or 11/25s with no boon duration and depending on if you have path of midnight or not. So 40~44% uptime on it. Its also currently an instant cast, same as doom so you can get the armour mid casting other skills/res/stomp…iirc doom can be cast when stunned so maybe it also has that as well. The fear part of the skill has a cast time though.
I’m actually really excited to try condi reaper. I assume the best trait options would be to run standard terrormancer in curses, Master of Terror and Dhuumfire in Soul Reaping (I really wish that Vital persistence + Path of Midnight was still adept), and Chill Damage in Reaper. The AoE Fear may seem a little weaker than the single-target Death Shroud fear, but this actually allows reaper to further pressure foes who are stealthed, as well as doubling as a stability for the heavy cc builds, like hammer warrior, who can potentially wreck a necromancer, as well as applying chill and chill damage due to reaper traits. Dhuumfire on reaper shroud auto is an amazing source of damage that turns reaper shroud into an amazing source of pressure, and Reaper Shroud might have just enough power damage to break the Diamond Skin eles who will become far more common when choosing earth means picking a grandmaster for them.
Yeah its going to be really exciting. Still the 100% condition duration is really good. You see that a 2 second? 1 second? I can’t tell with the way its worded. It makes a big difference. But you can run full into the fear duration and get 150% duration fear. You sacrifice the damage from terror, sure But thats a worth while trade off in my opinion because of the up time. Also, Lingering curse in the past didn’t count toward your total 100% possible duration. So having this with master of terror should give you a 150% before runes and sigils. Throw that in and your condi duration for whatever you choose could be quite impressive. A crazy idea might be to run Runes of the Necromancer and get 170% fear duration. Not the best suggestion but its still fun to think about. I think Runes of the Nightmare will still be the best option. But I like the idea of using fear to control your foe and not as a source of damage to have long periods of locked down foes sounds like a real option to me. Making it harder for them to defend against you sounds like it could be quite viable.
I’ve even thought about a crazy idea of running Lingering curse in a power build. Which I will test because I actually like the possibility of running a more fear control build.
As it is right now, Lingering Curses raises the base duration from scepter skills by around 33%. Blood Curse get 5s -> 7s base duration. After that we can add up to 100% duration. So that is a max 14s bleed. With the upcoming changes LC just gives us base condition duration for all conditions (not only scepter skills) so 5s -> 10s max.
Lingering Curses won’t go any longer over the 100%. So for scepter skills this actually is a nerf.
You can’t add over 100% duration on any condition no longer, so 150% or 170% fear duration is not possible sadly.
Who is yo say that a) it won’t work the same way as now and b) the duration cap won’t be changed since its no longer free from trait lines only on gear.
Depends on number of targets. For every 10 auto chains you will do 13 Grave Diggers So thats 28 VS 26 About 7% better on 1~2 targets. 2+ GD wins hands down. Also better for cleaving downed bodies since NF+GD spam is pretty huge damage.
Guards doing 2.8 total coeff per auto chain, Warriors do 2.3, Ranger does 1.65 but has a pet. Necros does 2.6 so its comparaple but out is the only one with a condi on it at 4s of chill. With some duration thats much longer so i guess it balances out.
Auto speed is about :
Guard : 2.4s
Ranger : 2.5s
Warrior : 2.4s
Necro: 2.8s
Our GS is directly modeled after the guards since we got shouts as well. For those all the coeffs again are comparable.
#1:- 2.6 with chill vs 2.8 with might
#2:- 2 vs 2.8
#3:- 1 vs 1.1
#4:- 2.8 vs 2.75
#5:- 1 vs 1
Its when your targets are below 50% hp that the necro gs puls ahead because of Grave digger spam. It takes about 1.6s to cast including after cast. Meaning its 6x better than Guard #2 and 3x better than Warrior #2 as well as 30% more range that the two of them. It should be far more effective at cleaving targets down.
@Silv
The only things wrong with your post are the assumption that reaper have it hard gathering LF, which they don’t. They actually have the highest of generation of all necros. Also s.armour is used with shroud to be immune to damage for a duration since the of gain per second is higher than incoming damage. Or the classic warhorn #5 melee combo for the same thing.
That chill will be a major part and focus of Tue build, which it can be but really don’t be depending on match up.
That movement impairing abilities will work on a reaper since they have higher reduction than warrior so you can’t use pin down to land 100b nor flurry to land it either since -56~91% without food. on those conditions would make them immune.
Only bit I agree with is the other specs being good counters and some existing things in the game as well. Being kited will be an issue for reapers but toe-to-toe they should have an esiser time. Reaper won’t be a big problem vs warrior nor warrior vs reaper. It should be an even match as long as people are similar skill levels. Personally looking forward to doing it on both Mt necro and warrior
I got bored and made a spread sheet that takes vuln, might, target armour, rune % damage bonus, trait % damage bonus, crit % damage bonus and a few other things into account to get out some damage numbers on the skills.
Average 12 might and 12 vuln ( these are easy for a reaper) you are looking at somewhere around, depending on armour and crits:
I still feel that losing that range is a bad thing when going into melee in teamfights can get you focused and taken out completely.
This is wear reaper actually shines best is in the middle of a team fight because of all the cleave, Aoes and the lf generation from hitting people or health regen from boons from your party. Plus they have so much stab that thy cant be locked down as easy which is why they were #1 target. Should be fun seeing how things change but it will be totally fine regardless of what weapon you use since you will spend alot of time in shroud.
Dagger should also be better for siphon builds which are getting a boost since bloodmagic got a HUGE rework
Dagger horn has advantages over GS as does GS over dagger horn. They fill similar roles albeit slightly differently.
There are things it can do that GS cant and vica versa. You can even take both if your team has someone who can deal with kiters for you because staff is…..well….yeah not the greatest to write home about. I get your worries though but it will still be totally viable your hard crafted weapon.
and then you retaliate with CC which the necro has a hard time with.
A reaper has far more stability than a necro. CC is less of a problem for them as is pindown since they have a much higher movement impairing condition reduction than warriors . They would counter your stance by still hitting you to generate lf and not leave shroud till its over. Still cant see how a base warrior would win in a melee fight. I wont use my warrior to fight one head on cause i can just see it losing or maybe i am just bad on my warrior.
2. We don’t know how well the Reaper Shroud and GS attacks scale with power yet (we don’t know their coefficients). Based on the video though the last strike of the RS auto dealt much more damage than the GS auto, while the first two strikes of the GS auto did more than the RS auto. The differences were pretty similar. Given that the RS auto is much faster, I could see it easily outDPS the GS auto as long as it scales well with power. Additionally Soul Spiral and Death’s Scythe (below 50 or 25%) in RS are shown to do much more damage from those individual skills than gravedigger does as a burst skill.
From what we seen in the video and what we know in game we can figure them out cause we know how damage in calculated. BiP is shown doing 275 damage in the video which is 1951 power, GS weapon strength is pvp is 1047.5, tool time damage goes of heavy armour which is 2600. Doing the math you get something like : GS
3. I can guarantee that the GS won’t have higher damage than lich form. That is simply absurd to even say.
Grave digger has the same coeff as Deathly Claws of Lich form but is a 170 radius 5 target aoe. It will be better to cleave things down with since it will refresh on hitting a downed target. It doesnt have range or cast as fast though.
GS auto chain takes around 2.9s and Reaper Shroud Auto chain takes around 2.5s. Not that slow. Blinds can be easily dealt with using war-horn or even wells + the new nightfall. Going toe to toe with a reaper wouldnt be recommended considering the combos you can pull. They should be easily kited though.
and the chill that does land can be easily cleansed if the current cleanse heavy meta continues
Chill is a relatively sparse condi in the game at the moment but it has a huge enough impact to force condi removal. If you force someone to use a cooldown to deal with the chill you can put out constantly without effort then its actually a win for you.
yes thats true. But still if you miss, the enemy invulns or dodges or misses some of the hits, just like with axe 2, you can literally be screwed out of that life force. Maybe I’m spoiled by the dagger autos, but I still don’t find the GS LF generation to be that reliable in comparison.
That may be true but when you consider how many ways a reaper can generate an insane amount of life force it isnt to much of a bother.
Means the game is easier to balance. If that leads to more frequent balancing of the game and it being better over all then all the better. Not only that but in pvp we only have certain stat combos due to come combined with innate stat gains from traits being over powered. This way it should allow more of the like…24? stat combos in the game opposed to the just 15..of which like 6 are used.
Not really condi stacking in reapers shroud unless you have dhuumfire but you can path of corruption all other the place. Aoe boon corruption on a 6~4s cooldown so skill #2 fits and also adds poison. Skill 3 is an aoe fear which again fits perfectly fine since that will also chill. Skill #4 can stack a lot of aoe bleeds from barbed precision due to its 11hits. Only #5 dont fit condi builds but in carrior gear they will still hurt A lot due to extremely high damage coefficients.
Thought it came from the confusion between exactly how much DS was since until a while ago the number couldn’t be seen. Testing had it either 120% hp but anet said it was base 60%. It just had an innate damage reduction.
Would count it as a feature since if it was a bug it would have been fixed by now.
Reaper Shroud due to its “melee” nature and the lack of Torment & Bleed I dont see how that fit into Condi Builds either tbh.
Dhuumfire. It allows you to stack between 6 and 12 stacks of burn. That’s between 2-4k damage in burn ticks.
Chill being able to deal damage… The ice field on #5 + the whirl on #4 is able to stack some long chill AOE. #3 is an AOE fear which gets AOE chill too because of the minor trait. #2 is AOE poison. Bleed on crit from barbed precision works better with the faster cleaving attacks ik Reaper Shroud. More then enough conditions in Reaper Shroud imo.
Still think its going to be split between terror and chill builds and dhuumfire shroud sustain builds. Chill on fear inherently makes terror do max damage.
Because getting free duration increases on things that are pretty strong isnt right. If you want longer boons or conditions you should have to gear for it instead of getting it for free with your build.
Also amulets stats are being rebalanced to cover losses of stats from lines but they shouldnt gain extra stats that deviate from what the amulet means. If you take zerk ammy you will inherently be squishier now since if you were taking the toughness line you lose 300 armour. It makes builds more clear cut which in turn makes it easier to balance.
