Guild Wars 2

With the number of stun heavy builds I have simply been running with stun reduction food in WvW and -20 trait in spvp. One stun break usually wont help me much when I get caught in a hammer train. Usually my only hope is to get out of there in a jiffy.

Uncle Shags.9017:

TheGuy.3568:

You have a lot to say but you back it up with 0 math so your point was? I am right deal with it.

Whirlwind: 8s cd 450range=56range/s
Rush: 16s cd 1200range=75r/s
Leap: 8s cd 900range=112r/s
Bullrush: 40s cd 600range=15r/s
Total: 258r/s + 33% speed

Shadow Step: 50s cd 1200range=24r/s
Infiltrator Signet: 30s cd 900range=30r/s
Infiltrator’s Arrow or HS: 8s cd (based on 1.33i/s) 900 range=112r/s
Steal: 28s cd 900 range=32r/s
Total: 198r/s + 25% speed

What’s my point? Clear from the first post I thought. After the warrior shrugs off the thief’s initial catch the warrior’s cds are up much more quickly, allowing the warrior to break away. And if the warrior is starting with a decent lead the thief will never catch up.

Read my three previous post before you go applying perma swiftness and cd reductions for warrior without applying initiative management for thief. It is a little disgusting to go over this over and over. Lets not even get into boon stealing an removing swiftness all together. You are using a very specific set up in your example that is for optimized mobility use the same for thief then we can talk. Understand?

About your lead. If any class with decent mobility has a lead and access to reverse camera CC ranged stuns or a low CD movement weapon they might not get caught. A wide enough gaps leads 2 things. Getting OOC which allows you to port. And the capability to simply sprint out of LOS. Even on engineer I could do this wit rocket boots supply drop and nades and CC on the run until I have a large enough gap to get OOC. Or ele I could do this and just get FGS get out of combat and port. Any class can do that because the gap was large enough in the first place that simply porting was an option. The funny thing is the most likely class to close the gap quick enough to stop your retreat is still thief.

A little piece of advice. You have to no matter what in a comparison of mobility include travel times/skill activation times. They factor. The first time I posted on this issue it was points out out to me that travel skills besides port are not instantaneous. You /s second math is off due to the fact that the warrior is not moving over this distances in a an instant. The thief is literally moving faster once he starts of shadow stepping. It is completely possible for thief to catch up to you before you finish your entire chain of skills. Once again this is all still assuming you do not get basilisk venom, crippled, on you or boon robbed in the process of activation.

You also concede in your example that thief will catch the warrior in the sprint.

Forestnator.6298:

Engineer is not one of the lowest classes in damage. Grenades outdamage any class apart from warrior.

^This. to an extent. A full glass thief could do it with perfect circumstances often due to having an engineer or 3 wars in the party. Though that thief would be glass cannon and in melee. Mesmer dps despite popular belief is not very high. Burst can be sustained is no where near nades not even in the same realm. Warrior is DPS champ but at the same time that has to be done in melee range and has less aoe than nades does. In terms of Aoe DPs engineer sits atop the mountain with low CD on Shrapnel Grenade and the spamabililty of nades in general. Engineer is also one of the best classes for keeping vulnerability stacks up in grenade builds. This support everyone’s direct damage making engineer valuable in the right teams. All that being said due to current misconception heavier classes are more accepted in some PvE groups and many players rely on them to tank due to having problems surviving certain PvE content.

Juba.8406:

because Guardian is slow

^This

I like mobile classes. Guardian can close the gap “ok”, but in terms of speed it is a turtle.

Olba.5376:

Also note that the travel distance of Savage Leap is larger than the range of the actual skill.

Yeah its 600 for the attack but travel distance is 900 for the skill (see Savage Leap). Anything more than 600 away equals a miss for the skill. Also like almost all the gap closers in the game (save many of thieves) the pathing is off at times.

I never understood why it doesn’t work like FGS’ Fiery Rush where when there is a target the animation is like swoop’s and without one its like rush.

Wyre.7458:

TheGuy.3568:

Puandro.3245:

TheGuy.3568:

Simple answer is no no buffs to mobility. Warrior can not out run a thief unless they run S/X in both weapon sets.

For any warrior who think they are the ultra mobile elite.a a good thief will have shadowstep and bow or dagger. Factually if a thief just want to keep up with you its entirely possible because they have the gap closing mobility to do it no matter your set. There is no way around it. If you ran fro ma thief and got OOC the thief either blew their cool downs and you didn’t or they simply sucked.

While Warriors need Sword and GS with perma swiftness to outrun a thief, they can very much do so.

Sigh..

Bull’s Charge = 900 Rush 1,200 Savage Leap = 900 Whirlwind Attack =450

Total distance = 3,450
Total application time = 4 seconds

Shadowstep = 1.200 steal = 900 Infiltrator’s Arrow x 2= 1,800

Total distance = 3,900
Total activation time = Anywhere from 1 second to to 3 seconds Fast cast ground target could theoretically make it nearly instantaneous.

This is all assuming the thief doesn’t have any initiative traits. If he has base of 15 instead of 12 then you can get a Infiltrator’s Strike or a Heartseeker for an extra 600 or 450 range respectively. Even then at base iniative rechange of 1.33 seconds per point you could still get either one of these moves off in the time it takes for the warrior to complete his running way combo. CD reduction on warrior skills on GS would not effect the sprint portion of catching up.

Also note this does not factor in Infiltrator’s Signet, Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Scorpion Wire Wire acting as additional movement skills and gap closers. And does not factor in the use of Sprint for warrior.

All of warriors movement abilitys besides sword leap go further than what is said on the tool tip while the warrior has swiftness on. I wouldn’t say it’s exactly 33% further, but it is significant

Read my last 2 post. If you substitute HS for IS there is no advantage having swiftness up. Even so remember if using IS then the thief is using SB which means they do not have to be in melee to keep up with you. I will say it again if a thief wants to catch you they will.

IMHO as a relatively new engineer fully geared but still new engineer is one of those classes that feels fine in PvE including dungeons. The thing I noticed is that for all the utility 3 kits brings to a party the DPS can be lack luster. Like an engineer long ago told me,“I feel like I end up just sitting in grenades and spamming because its just too good in PvE.” Now this was before the 30% damage reduction but I found myself doing the same and just playing HgH for PvE. The vulnerability adds up and the dps is far from lack luster and the range just makes lots of content a breeze. I am not experienced enough an engineer to say that this is the best dps there is. However, from what I have seen in a party an engineer can most definitely pull its a weight.

It should be noted in most dungeons 4 heavy plus a mesmer wont really make much difference outside of one noticeable speed run. PvE content in general is not hard enough to need specific classes. Even in that case places like AC like to have eles for ice bow. Speed runs of Path 2 in CoF some times exclude classes that cant leap or make the jumps. Rarely is the content so hard that you need a tank. In many of those cases the players who beg for a heavy were being carried in the first place. I think its the dumbest thing that so many months in these stereotypes persist.

Best thing I can tell you is play well do not go down too much and no one will care what you do.

Previous post ran long but for you min/maxers if you want to do some real math I can point you in the right direction. Considering warrior skills alone is foolish. If you intend to debate see the whole picture or do not bother.

Initiative Management Traits

Shadow Arts
Infusion of Shadow: Gain 2 initiative when using a skill that stealths you.

Acrobatics
Quick Pockets: Gain 3 initiative on weapon swap while in combat.
Quick Recovery:Gain 2 initiative every 10 seconds.

Trickery
Kleptomaniac: Stealing gives you 3 initiative.
Preparedness: Increases maximum initiative by 3.
Hastened Replenishment: You receive 4 initiative when using a heal skill.
Initial Strike: Attacks with the first weapon-skill slot have a 7% chance to regain 1 initiative.

These can all be used in a single build.

Roll for Initiative can be used as both a movement skill (if you flip the camera) and an initiative management skill. CD can be reduced by 20 however you would have ot give up Initial strike.

Withdraw when combined with Hastened Replenishment provides 4 initiative every 15 seconds. Further more like Roll for initiative above if you flip your camera it can be used as a movement skill.

If you are willing to remove one of the 2 grandmaster traits listed above you as well as the shadow arts trait you could go 20 points into Critical strikes and use the trait signet use granting 2 initiative on signet activation and further more reducing the CD on Signet of Malice

Swiftness

Thrill of the Crime
Can help with swiftness but for perma swiftness you simply need. Rune of the Centaur plus 30 points into acrobatics for 30% boon duration (though 15 is actually enough with dodge traits). As long as you use either of the 2 heals above you can achieves perma swiftness. This also frees up a utility slot.

Steal

Recharge drops 20-30% depending on the build either to a 28 second cd or a 24.5 second cd.
Since the movement skills and gap closers are listed above I do not think I need to list them again.

Uncle Shags.9017:

Despite TheGuy’s laughable hyperbole, the actual “fact” of the matter is that thief mobility in the long run is inferior to warrior’s. When you divide distance by cd and add them all up warrior comes out ahead. Sure, thief pulls ahead initially, but can’t maintain due to long cds, lesser foot speed, and the lag associated with infiltrators arrow. Kraven and Puandro are right.

As far as the “catch” goes, cripple and immobilize are non issues for a warrior due to mobile strikes, and Charge, or the food/trait/rune combo. Add Endure Pain, Balanced Stance and there is nothing a thief can do to slow down the warrior from eventually pulling ahead.

On the other hand, IMO, the only reason thieves can escape from a GS+Sw/Wh warrior at all is stealth. And if they build for full mobility they wouldn’t even have that. =P

You have a lot to say but you back it up with 0 math so your point was? I am right deal with it. You have too many flaws in your logic. Even with the best condi management in the world a thief can keep you crippled or simply stick to you. The math is not incorrect if you even took the time to read the rest of the skills I omitted you would have realized your arguments flaws. When you are read to come back and make an argument using “facts:” like cd reduction (which only applies to greatsword in this case) and compare that too the various traits and utility skills that allow the regeneration of initiative then you can talk. Until then learn something from some one who knows more than you its the smart move.

Puandro.3245:

Thief has burst mobility but fot consistent mobility warrior will win. Also movement skills are affected by swiftness and teleports are not.

Sigh…
And this is more miss information. Savage Leap is not affected by movement impairment or boost ie swiftness has no effect on it (same rules as RTL is you did not know). Heartseeker is affected by swiftness as Rush Whirlwind Attack and Bull Charge. These skills are affected by cripple even with the reduced cripple build if it is on as you activate the skill your distance will be reduced. It should also be noted that you could put 4 HS (450 × 4 initiative cost 3 per use) in place of the 2 IS (900 × 2 initiative cost 6 per use) in my above post and come up with the same numbers or better given the fact HS is affected by movement effects and utilizes Initiative better than IS.

This also has to be pointed out that many of you are making the common but understandable mistake that the thief need to be within 130m of you. This simply incorrect. Like I said if the thief just wants to keep you in battle they only need the SB and its 900 range to do that. Whether it be 1m distance or 890m that’s all any thief really needs to keep you in combat. That is not hard to do. Further. the fact that any CC you do to thief will require you to turn around and apply it (save some melee CC if the thief is close enough).

What you have to understand is depending on the build he may use no initiative in catching up to you or a minimal amount. Further more for mobility sake the only weapon a thief needs is shortbow. the off set could be anything from S/D to remove your boons to D/P which will simply be impossible to escape from.

Toady I encountered a thief and with my GS/Sw+Sh warrior ran circles around him. On my thief I just catch up to warriors and keep them in combat. YMMV depending on who you are fighting but at the end of the day if a thief wants to catch you they will.

Also, the hypotheticals do not match real builds. The reasons I used the skills I did in the example is because they are common to the bar in many builds. If you want to talk about hypothetical warrior builds build for max you “can’t stop me” compare them to builds for thief that are built for maximum inactive gain and management and gap closer’s (btw this type of build would have steal on a reduced cd how much is dependent upon the build).

peter.9024:

I guess the only thing is that the thief will “catch” the warrior by matching the movement speed, but he won’t be able to kill a competent warrior by the time he caught up.

That depends on a lot of factors including how much initiative he has left and the build he is running. For example a P/D thief wouldn’t have all that much issue vs a warrior even after they caught up. D/P would be “ok” If they didn’t blow their whole pool. PP likely would not win (not a very good dueling spec as it is) DD might be ok but once again its the pool. S/D or S/P would be fine in most cases. Once the chase game is over it comes down to player skill, numbers, and build knowledge. You could be the most competent warrior in the world and still get your kitten handed to you by a good thief and vice versa. There is no strong class advantage here at all save for the fact the thief has stealth and better kiting skills.

Wanze.8410:

What about if i start with a 4 second fear or pop it once you caught up to me?

Infitratos signet and steal itself will counter that. As will Shadowstep.

Wanze.8410:

What about smart terrain usage and perma swiftness?

Perma swiftness wont factor 33% vs 25% where the 25% has vastly superior mobility. I do not mean slightly better mobility vastly superior mobility and more catch up skills then you could imagine plus access to immobilize and cripple on the run at range. Not even considering the fact that thief could possibly steal your boons so there is that also. So…..there’s that.

Terrain in terms of WvW there are only a few spots that you could use. Since none of them give you any move advantage then no being in melee range the thief could pull out SB and range you to death or just wait for you to move and continue the chase.

Wanze.8410:

You also forgot our tsunami slash, how is your mobility under water?

Not at all as I said I omitted some things (not to be nit picky), but since you would like to go there. Steal still works under water furthermore Ink Shot will allow the thief to catch up. The projectile speed is not that slow. the main disadvantage for thief underwater isn’t chasing a warrior but killing the warrior as warrior dps and cc underwater over shadows the thieves’.

Wanze.8410:

tAre you traited for fall damage reduction?

Irrelevant as both have traits for it and it wont factor unless they head to cliff. Too much of a hypothetical and pointless to ask as it has nothing to do with mobility.

Wanze.8410:

How good is your cc removal and stability uptime?

Stability on thief is hard to come by but CC removal is vastly superior to warriors. I am not going to do a detailed guide. However, sword main hand, SA trait 4 and some of the skills mentioned above. Also this is another pointless um point. Any warrior with enough CC to challenge your removal is running hammer or mace and its not all that mobile to begin with. So…..once again there is that.

Wanze.8410:

In the end, it all boils down to how good you can play your class and your build.
A good thief will catch 90% of all warriors while a good warrior will also be able to get away most of the times.

True and yet any good thief will caoth a warrior with a basic build end of story. D/P alone is troll worthy in this regard. (see Shadow Shot)

I know warrior like to debate but this one isn’t up for it. Any thief who knows what they are doing will catch you. You could be the best warrior when it comes to running away a good thief will catch you. If the thief didn’t catch you they sucked. End of story.

Edit:

Before some else tries to argue let me save you the trouble. On this particular issue there is no argument. Thief mobility and chase skills are better. Not up for debate. This is strictly the facts of the matter. It may cause some hurt to your pride or you may run circles around thief all day. I do not care. If a thief wants to catch you they will catch you. If you are both built for mobility he will outrun and outmaneuver you too.

You know what i do not even disagree, but too my knowledge most if not all auto attacks that chain use their third hit for the big DPS skill in the chain. While I do agree it’s a nerf it seems more like they just brought it inline with other skills.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Bryzy.2719:

So I shouldn’t be judging it positively then?

As I say all I have to compare it to up to now is Ranger.

Don’t mind TheGuy, I think he took you saying you are enjoying the class in WvW compared to your ranger as somehow you saying that warrior is op or something. There are people on these forums that simply can’t grasp how someone could have fun with this class in pvp because srsbsns tPvP is the only game mode don’t you know!

Nope that’s not how i took it.

“I’ve noticed a bit of moaning on the warrior forum but now i’ve played the profession i don’t see any moaning that needs to be done… Then again i’ve only ever played ranger before this so frankly any other profession will seem a lot better….”

Which I understand. Now you’ll notice in my little sig at the bottom Heckes BM Ranger. Now that ranger was my second 80 so it was BM before BM was even BM get me? So I fully understand rangers getting somewhat screwed (more like completely with the past patch). Now I have 6 80 and yes warrior is my main. Yes I enjoy it. However, I wont kid my self in terms of PvP I could do more with mesmer, engineer, and thief. I still love warrior in WvW but at the same time I am fully aware of what the limits are. Now my personal position is not to comment on the balance or capability of a class I do not have 100 hours on (you do not have to do that or anything). I do this so I have feel for what the class does and how well it does it. In the case of warrior I agree with about 80% of the complaints. The issues are real and I do not like the idea of someone who just got done with warrior playing it for a bit and saying everything is OK. It undermines our personal experiences and dedication to the class through thick and thin.

Puandro.3245:

TheGuy.3568:

Simple answer is no no buffs to mobility. Warrior can not out run a thief unless they run S/X in both weapon sets.

For any warrior who think they are the ultra mobile elite.a a good thief will have shadowstep and bow or dagger. Factually if a thief just want to keep up with you its entirely possible because they have the gap closing mobility to do it no matter your set. There is no way around it. If you ran fro ma thief and got OOC the thief either blew their cool downs and you didn’t or they simply sucked.

While Warriors need Sword and GS with perma swiftness to outrun a thief, they can very much do so.

Sigh..

Bull’s Charge = 900 Rush 1,200 Savage Leap = 900 Whirlwind Attack =450

Total distance = 3,450
Total application time = 4 seconds

Shadowstep = 1.200 steal = 900 Infiltrator’s Arrow x 2= 1,800

Total distance = 3,900
Total activation time = Anywhere from 1 second to to 3 seconds Fast cast ground target could theoretically make it nearly instantaneous.

This is all assuming the thief doesn’t have any initiative traits. If he has base of 15 instead of 12 then you can get a Infiltrator’s Strike or a Heartseeker for an extra 600 or 450 range respectively. Even then at base iniative rechange of 1.33 seconds per point you could still get either one of these moves off in the time it takes for the warrior to complete his running way combo. CD reduction on warrior skills on GS would not effect the sprint portion of catching up.

Also note this does not factor in Infiltrator’s Signet, Roll for Initiative, Withdraw, and Scorpion Wire Wire acting as additional movement skills and gap closers. And does not factor in the use of Sprint for warrior.

Zelyhn.8069:

I love to be contradicted
So let’s see:
Dagger’s auto-attack, Lightning Whip: coefficient=0.7 hits=2 totalcast=1.15 so coefficient/s=1.22
Scepter’s rotation:, Arc lightning: coefficient=1.89 (total) totalcast=3.95 so coefficient/s=0.48, add Lightning strike: coefficient=1.2 cooldown=5 so coefficient/s=0.24, total scepter’s rotation: coefficient/s=0.48+0.24=0.72
Comparison: 1.22/0.72=1.69, so I was wrong … dagger does 69% more damage.
If you factor in the Lightning discharge proc that goes down to 58% more damage.
So basically you can miss on third of your hits in dagger and still have more damage.

Nice math. I will admit I made a mistake. Lets forget about base damage (bad math on your part if you are going to use it then do it well). You also need to factor in that each one of those 10 hits (scepter) and 2 and auto attacks (dagger) case has the possibility to crit. Also remember scepter hits harder as stages progress. Once your done with all that then we can talk about the math. Practical application of the damage (ie hitting the target range vs semi melee weapon). The question is could you possibly miss one third or your hits with the dagger that you would not have missed with the scepter? Like I said before scepter will out pace dagger in dps I never said it hit harder. Are you literally saying dagger is better than scepter in the main hand for DPS?

Fuzzion.2504:

TheGuy.3568:

Right now S/D out classes and out paces Dagger main hand in terms of DPS

You should cut down on the mushrooms bro.

Care to explain or are you just trolling?

Zelyhn.8069:

Well dagger does about 40% more damage at least in air …

About 11% more damage on auto attack if you land every hit.

Once you compare Lightning Strike
and Lightning Touch SD does much more damage in air.

The real issue here is a keep defending. Despite the lack luster damage cluster bomb was almost necessary to contribute your small part in big fight. I will not talk this up like thief is at that much of a disadvantage but I never saw an issue with it in the first place. This feels like one of those silly unnecessary nerfs that make you shake your head. Of the many thing in this class that could have been nerfed in PvP and the many buffs unseen in PvE this is just stupid.

Here is an idea put clusterbomb back 1,200 lol.

Simple answer is no no buffs to mobility. Warrior can not out run a thief unless they run S/X in both weapon sets.

For any warrior who think they are the ultra mobile elite.a a good thief will have shadowstep and bow or dagger. Factually if a thief just want to keep up with you its entirely possible because they have the gap closing mobility to do it no matter your set. There is no way around it. If you ran fro ma thief and got OOC the thief either blew their cool downs and you didn’t or they simply sucked.

This is a joke thread right? Who is above thief is cleansing right now? Necro and guardian and ele. Lets not play games here thief is fine when it comes to condition cleansing. Any short comings you see are from the vacuum because most classes aren’t better off.

You know what let me sum this up much quicker you will never ever get a buff here not ever. If you can not handle conditions as thief you are GC or a bad kittening thief. /Thread

Right now S/D out classes and out paces Dagger main hand in terms of DPS and we have trouble sticking to target due to the RTL nerf. The main issue issue is auto attack for dagger main hand does not hit hard enough and I believe mobility on the main hand need to be brought up including increasing the Projectile speed of Magnetic Grasp. This is into a new issue but between the months of Nerf DD which was more about x/D more than anything else main hand D has received very little love.

Aberrant.6749:

Lethal Stranger.5093:

For the love of Grenth, they better not touch Rocket Boots.

Unfortunately I foresee a rocket boot nerf in the near future from what was said in the latest state of the game… by the moderator… who mains an Eng… >.<

The dev and by that I mean Jonathan Sharp said nothing about it except engineer needed an escape. And the real question is why would it be nerfed? Silly engineers not used to having a little mobility. Trust me play thief or warrior and you’ll see nothing wrong with the current Rocket Boots.

+50 is +50 its jumps to 121% in your case.

Sigh…How long have you played warrior? Do you know the ins and outs of every build? Have you faced every class with it? Is it your most played toon that you could recognize a build just by seeing it without seeing the hero tab? Every go into Tpvp with it?

You know i have 6 80s and I don’t even take the time to comment until I have 100 hours on the toon in pvp. The reason is you can not judge a class that quickly. You get me?

The issues hasn’t changed from day one. Whether your invincible in stealth or just invisible it removes you from the target to the other player. AoE skills are nice but you never know if your just hitting air or a player. Access to stealth is cheap in fact so cheap that it makes thieves nigh impossible to kill in the right build. Thief mobility is also the highest in the game (not guessing the math is there). Burst is high but not the most insane there is given the stat trade off. Lets not forget evades the capability to spam skills etc etc.

I know to the ears (eyes in this case) of most thieves this is just whining, but fact is it’s not like anyone is posting blatant lies or over exaggerating or anything of that sort. Thief mechanics are over the top for 1v1 fights (and many 1 v X). Always have been and likely will continue to be. There is no risk. Any smart thief carries shadow step and refuge for the tough moments and is smart enough to stealth/evade/ or simply run when necessary.

Now the hard truth for stealth hater. Despite not being able to see the thief stealth by itself offers no mitigation other than the fact you cannot see the damage you are doing but if you are doing damage you will continue to do it. Thief has no innate access to protection and all mitigation comes by way of evades and stealth. In most cases non glass thieves can be tanky but with the exception of shadow step (utility no weapon) most other things can be countered to a degree.

In order to gain the defensive benefits from stealth you must stop attack (some fields are allowed from stealth but can be walked out of). During that time the thief if they are in dire straits has 2 options run or continue the fight. In many cases you can not out run the thief but at the same time his situation may be bad enough to force a retreat.

With the exception of DP (too a degree actually) most stealth heavy builds can be blown by exploiting the crutch that is stealth and initiative management. With the exception of venom signets steal CnD backstab one shot most thief burst can be brought to a halt by limiting there access to stealth. How do you do that? CnD has a cast the animation is obvious and you know its coming due to reveal being off. Dodge then and they blow imitative. Do it enough and the thief runs out and will high tail it using either shadow step and refuge or refuge alone.

If the thief has blind in stealth you have less options to killing their refuge move. If not use a launch in the middle and half the time you will knock them out (you can also use a pull externally). Other times if thy were low on health upon entrance spam the middle with aoe.

Now I may give advice but fact is thief is OP in WvW UP in PvE and so so at best in Spvp. WvW is currently one of the most if not the most popular game mode. Thieves being there hurts balance but not in a Zerg v Zerg way. In Zerg thief is actually pretty UP as getting to the front lines and bursting is a fools mission. In small scale its good, but what hurts most players is thief roaming and killing other roamers.

Fact is I have never understood Anet’s logic. They tied so much into stealth its ridiculous. Active combat stealth should have never made it into the game in the first place. Combat stealth by it’s very nature is a form of trolling. Yet it is here and here to stay. I would suggest if you hate stealth roll a thief and just use it. I have no sage advice like “Now you’ll understand how to counter it”. No you won’t. If I roam thief I don’t get countered I don’t give a kitten can’t stop me anyway if I am serious about not getting caught. Fact is you’ll just have all the tools to do what you wanted in the first place to roam or beat other thieves.

Whining about stealth isn’t going to change a thing so give it up. Thief stealth is not getting nerfed any time soon. Saying L2P isn’t going to change a thing so give it up. Telling people learn to play isn’t going to change the perception of the class anytime soon. Fact is only the most unskilled players demand to play thief to get it. There is no such thing as beating a good thief. They messed up/ over extended if you did. There is no such thing as being a good thief. You rely on spammable skills, stealth, mobility and/or evades as a crutch in most builds. The truly good players moved on from thief long ago. No one who’s good plays a class/build that has no challenge to it.

Sigh, despite all this thief actually needs buffs to condition specs as they are out paced and classed by most other classes. Range dps is also an issue.

TL;DR
Came out like a rant but whatever. Lets stop all this its been like 9 months now.

Veritas.6071:

I would stay clear of Healing Power unless you have several sources such as healing shouts, Adrenal Health, or reliable access to Regeneration (which you won’t at 11). With our strongest Heal(#6 skill) coefficients being around 1.0, you’d have to use your heal 10 times to get the amount of HP equal to 1 point of Vitality. The best way to stay alive on a warrior is to not get hit at all. Unless speced heavily into support, we don’t have the tools to facetank anything above trash mobs, and even with significant investment, you won’t be laughing at Champions… maybe a chuckle here and there against Vets.

^This.

On a side note easiest tanking I have found for a melee mob is P/D thief. Strongest pure tank between DD ele bunker and though I do not play it guardian bunker (it is all in the boons in either case). Engineer, Mesmer, and Necro all for decent tanky (they lack sustained in areas also) specs also but give up a lot of DPS for it. BM Ranger bunker is still insanely good even with reduced dps from the pets. Warrior simply does not have to healing to keep up with he stats. Listening to the lat SOTG they seem likely not to change this in PvE.

Speaking strictly for experience the best tanking in the world is simply not getting hit. I ran healing signet for months before i went over to mending. Not getting hit will let you drop many champs but simply kiting and dodging at the appropriate times.

After DD ele got nerfed into the ground I realized if you run a powerful build or even suspect it is OP its better not to share it. Bandwagons kill this game’s meta. I also believe unsuspecting will get nerfed or maces stun brought down if the trend actually picks up.

There is another thing. Never demand someone share their build. Fact is if they took the time to come up with it they have no obligation to tell you anything about it. Often it is good to share but sometimes you just do not want to.

My engineer Wrekkes

Armor Aetherblade
Weapons Dragon’s Jade Flintlock and Dragon’s Jade Wall

BurrTheKing.8571:

I don’t really think Skull Crack is a 1 button “I win” considering how many teleports, blinds, stun breaks, and stability skills there are in the game. The only class this build can just destroy is Necro because they don’t have a lot of ways to break out once they are locked down. This is actually kinda cool because if people are going to keep running two necros on teams than having a class that can lock them down might make us appealing.

Not to be too rude but you said yourself, “It’s pretty much impossible to avoid every Skull Crack and even guardians/eles eventually run out of stun breaks/stability at which point they’re dead.”

I could say the same about a thief missing their first back stab but know fully if it lands anybody is sol (easy counter however). In this case because its a stun you fully sol. 10 second CD on a stun that long with that quick of an animation. I would call that an “I win” button in most cases.

BurrTheKing.8571:

TheGuy.3568:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its so funny that yesterday i been fighting a guy using gs+mace/shield in spvp. It is pretty easy to counter tho, but its seems that it worked as ppl had no idea what to do.

Easy to counter how exactly? It’s pretty much impossible to avoid every Skull Crack and even guardians/eles eventually run out of stun breaks/stability at which point they’re dead. Now 1v1 yes you could do the same old kite fest but then you can just switch to dogged and mobile strikes. Skull Crack on an Asura is also almost impossible to see cause the animation is so small.

A strong blind build should be able to do it. A bomb build Engineer or any condition overload build should be able to do it. If there is no cover/obstructions any decent ranged build should be able to do it.

The main issue with this build is the fact you know the warrior needs to close the gap and is going to double stun. If you blow your stun breaker on the second stun there isn’t much the warrior can do to counter. That being said if you get caught it is likely over. I don’t think Ill run this much. Stun lock to me is just….. Either way more power to warrior who run this. A win is a win on this class more than any other. It would be nice to see one warrior QQ thread like the old days.

Well that being said when I see a bomb Engi I’d probably play defensive till I knew he had used the best bombs because the CD on those things are pretty long. I haven’t fought many engis that use bomb kit for more than Big Ol’ Bomb and Glue for running away though. I will say yes the fact that you have to get in close is a problem but that being said a warrior running a longbow build would probably also lose to a Engi and I can’t think of a build that would really counter it well and still be viable vs other specs.

(Edit: I am still new to engineer so I do not know it all, but this is what I have observed so far. Just being honest.)

Big ol bomb is great but it is not my favorite nor do I consider it the best. I would put Fire Bomb at the top of the list in a condition over load spec and Smoke Bomb right behind that.

Now bombs in PvP especially WvW are not that great. Enemies can usually predict them and get away unsaved. However the trick I am finding out is to use bombs plus projectiles and blast to off balance the enemy. Any build that actually needs to close the gakitten usceptible to bombs. Fire bomb is on of the best access a condition spec gets to burning beside running FT. The fact it makes a field helps with application from ranged. Smoke bomb is good for when the stun break is down or when you simply want to stealth away.

No matter how good a warrior spec is if you are landing your conditions as long as he doesn’t catch you he will die. Melandru or not half of condition enjis run between 80 and 100 condition duration. So you are right with perfect play no real countering engineer.

Either way if it does get out of hand I will be one of the first to post how the stun should be nerfed. I do not play or like 1 button I win builds. Main reason my thief is half shelved. I do not think it is that bad though and we need a win as it is. I think we should all look at DD ele at a time like this. For a long time it was considered up it was mentioned that it would get buffs. The meta changed things got weird and it got nerfed into the ground.

My suggestion is that you quit. Not trolling or bull kittenting. Your list of complaints covers all classes. You wont play a class if there are too many people playing it. Many players have several 80s and play them. Many of those leveled classes are warrior’s. You won’t touch engineer due to looks. You do not like kiting So ele is out also additionally you find it UP. You do not like warrior or guardian due to the fact you find them boring. You do not like necro as it does not fit your standard rpg model of a necro. You toss thief out also. Lets not forget ranger which you also dislike.

Elementalist…out
Engineer…out
Guardian…out
Mesmer..out
Necromancer…out
Ranger….out
Thief….out
Warrior…out
Combat….out

You do not like this game. You do not like the combat. Do not waist your time and ours. Quit and find a game you actually enjoy.

Edit: Came out a little harsh at the end, but in this case I didn’t intend that. I hope you find a game you like, but posting here complaining about things we simply do not control is a little much in my opinion. You clearly seem like you do not like the game. If logging in is a chore than you should not do it. We all came here to have fun. If you are not having fun you should move on to another game that suits you.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its so funny that yesterday i been fighting a guy using gs+mace/shield in spvp. It is pretty easy to counter tho, but its seems that it worked as ppl had no idea what to do.

Easy to counter how exactly? It’s pretty much impossible to avoid every Skull Crack and even guardians/eles eventually run out of stun breaks/stability at which point they’re dead. Now 1v1 yes you could do the same old kite fest but then you can just switch to dogged and mobile strikes. Skull Crack on an Asura is also almost impossible to see cause the animation is so small.

A strong blind build should be able to do it. A bomb build Engineer or any condition overload build should be able to do it. If there is no cover/obstructions any decent ranged build should be able to do it.

The main issue with this build is the fact you know the warrior needs to close the gap and is going to double stun. If you blow your stun breaker on the second stun there isn’t much the warrior can do to counter. That being said if you get caught it is likely over. I don’t think Ill run this much. Stun lock to me is just….. Either way more power to warrior who run this. A win is a win on this class more than any other. It would be nice to see one warrior QQ thread like the old days.

Of the 6 classes I played thief is above ranger and ele and in difficulty and below warrior, mesmer, and engineer in terms of PvP. I know that sounds off but I would be more likely to run a rotation on ranger or ele as both my toons were bunker (shelved atm). Thief does require some skill but the class over all is basically designed to harass.

That being said in dungeon pve its not all that special and most content isn’t that hard so it really doesn’t matter what class you bring. In Open world PvE thief is one of the best class for things like map completion fighting some champs (p/d being the only class I can solo the risen abomination on).

thief hate has been dying down a bit. I think the nerfs were dumb and what was OP is still OP and what was UP is more UP or the same /shrug.

Puandro.3245:

I did have quite a big crowd watching me duel ppl that night, wouldnt be surprised if worth spread around the server matchup. Btw it was really weird watching SoR, BG and JQ all stop fighting in a high traffic zone to watch the duels i was having, reminded of my DAoC solo days.

Actually from time to time it happens in that spot. Once had a 10 minute duel on my old Dd ele vs a SD one. Had a nice crowd not interruptions. I lost but the duel was good. Sometimes it is nice to take a break and duel.

Ultrajoe.8674:

TheGuy.3568:

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

I contest this, though. In any multi-target situation the skill will deal thousands of damage and will be easily triggered every cooldown, for a marvelous uptime and a nice fat chunk of hurt. Even nerfed, Retaliation is incredibly fun and combined with ‘Empowered’ it will even make itself stronger! As a minor trait it would grant us far too much for simply spending points, and make the defensive tree stronger than it already is. I also don’t think it’s underwhelming for a grandmaster trait. It’s passive and situational, but it’s also very useful in the cases it was intended for. I would counsel that, if at all, it should be moved down a tier to free up a grandmaster slot.

What would you replace it with, incidentally, if it was removed from grandmaster?

A little break down about retal. Strong single hit skills will not maximize retal. Condition specs not running rabid will make the trigger intermittent. Please read my OP about “Empowered”. Retal no longer hits hard enough to be a true defensive dps deterrent ie, “I wont hit you because I fear retaliation” . As a defensive trait ti will not keep us in the fight an longer. It does not mitigate damage at all. 5 second up time would require that to fully utilize the skill you get hit during those 5 seconds. Due to our weak sustainability this is counter intuitive. A 30 point defensive trait should be a 30 point defensive trait that improves defense.

Hmm, replace. 2 things come to mind that would make sense but that is up for debate. I am not a dev and I rarely get the full extent of their logic. That being said. I would suggest replacing retal with protection. My logic is defy pain works as a last minute life saver. In this role it does well. Defense line needs a passive defense trait with a strong up time. Beside the stat points the only mitigation skill with a strong up time is Adrenal Health.

I figure a trait that gives 10 seconds of Protection after receiving a critical hit with a 20 second icd would be fine. A trait that granted protection for 15 seconds when you hit 50% life with a 30 second icd would also work.

The other option is tie it all into adrenaline. The trait that makes the most sense to me is base damage reduction tied into adrenaline gain and keeping it. So a trait where you receive 6% less damage for each bar of adrenaline you have seems to make the most sense to me. This provides good counter play to cleansing ire as it would require you to lose that damage reduction in order to wipe conditions.

I watched most of it. What I realize is Anet is very worried about making warrior Op but fine letting other things get out of hand. It does make sense I guess but it feel like our class suffers simply due to the fact that PvE in most cases just isn’t that hard. They keep saying if we change just one thing warrior could be OP so fast. I fail to see how.

BurrTheKing.8571:

peter.9024:

On the defense side maybe adrenal health could move to 5pt and last stand to 15. That would leave more room for taking the weapon traits.

That be pretty interesting, staying in the fight is important for us and having this would just make us have stability around as often as a guardian, which seems fair.

Not a bad idea at all. Or maybe move the internal cd to 60 seconds or so to make it more useful.

Flissy.4093:

Longbow is better, as direct damage > condition damage. Fact.

I speak strictly for PvE.

How so as they are both hybrid?

Single target rifle. Multiple LB. LB has more utility in the long run.

peter.9024:

Scoobaniec.9561:

TheGuy.3568:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

Minor trait 5 in defense is probably the worse of all. 100 extra toughness above 90% hp.

Yeah the 5pt trait is like 3% mitigation for 1 hit?

Well depends on your build. Pure “bunker” can “use” it to great effect. And it is a 5 point trait so not that big a deal. Honestly, I do not care. Sorry, but it is not worth derailing a thread to disagree over something so minor (get it?). Spiked Armor needs to be moved out of the major trait list end of story. Doesn’t matter if they made it a minor or not it needs to go.

Ultrajoe.8674:

Speaking purely from the WvW perspective, Spiked Armor is still fun even after the nerf. I would be sad to see it go, personally.

You have to put it in perspective. Compared to defy pain it just doesn’t add up as a 30 point trait. In most builds cross class it will not hold it’s weight. I use it too but I am not worried about losing it. As a trait it has no real place in the line. Half the lower traits are more useful simply due to the way the class is designed. I am not saying it can not be used but that it’s time for it to go in place of a true grand master worthy defensive trait.

Think about the first response moving it to 5 points.

Scoobaniec.9561:

Its still can be cool.. as (noob censure?) 5 minor trait

After looking at the minor traits for the Defense line I threw that suggestion out. Unlike Tactics they are all good and appreciated. Not a one of them needs to be replaced for a trait like this. I honestly believe it needs to go and be replaced.

Spiked Armor for those of you who do not know is a Grandmaster trait in the defense line. While it is true we have many bad traits has been passively getting nerfed. With the likely changes to retal and the nerfs that have already happened I honestly believe this trait should be removed or replaced. I do not see much room for improvement or making the trait better.

I honestly believe this is one of those traits that in the process of nerfing guardians (engineers to a lesser extent) was simply forgetting about. Before due to the massive power levels we can achieve it was an “ok” trait to carry in a defensive build. It still synergies well with Empowered to an extent. However, even this trait has been undermined by Empowered Allies buffs (not a bad thing but it is the truth).

As a grandmaster trait imho it just doesn’t really have a place. Seeing it replaced with a heal, protection, or anything more defensive would make more sense. As a Grand master trait in the defensive line it should feel like it worth taking over Defy Pain. I think this little nearly forgotten trait needs to go.

LightningBlaze.4913:

I went against another warrior today with similar build and same wep sets. Even though this one i managed to defeat 2 times during our 3 1v1 encounters, this build and playstyle is very very scary! as an s/d burst non-glass cannon build ele.

I noticed in WvW more people running this while roaming.It seems to have caught on like hotcakes kinda like DD ele back in the day, but I digress. I have been try to think up counters to it beside running Melandru and food to reduce stun duration. I think my engineer with bombs could possibly negate the build with blinds, stealth, range and overloading conditions. I will have to find someone to test it on.

I imagine with S/D ele its going to be when you pop your blind. Also in open space I doubt S/D could lose to this build.

Puandro.3245:

Olba.5376:

Puandro.3245:

Olba.5376:

Puandro.3245:

Daze/stun/knockdown/knockback all trigger unsuspecting foe.

They don’t.

Stun is a completely different effect from Daze. Knockdown and Knockback are disables. Daze/Stun/Knockdown/Knockback together fall under the flag of disables.

Note the difference in description between Unsuspecting Foe and Merciless Hammer.

Wrong, it affects all disables. Did you actually test it or did you go off the tooltips because you should never do that on vague tooltips. Ive tested it and it works like i posted above.

Well, since you asked, I tested it in HotM using Eviscerate, Bull’s Charge and Shield Bash. 52% crit rate, so Unsuspecting Foe would push me to 100%. I tried both Shield Bash + Eviscerate and Bull’s Charge + Eviscerate and found that the latter did not guarantee crits. It’s a knockdown, so according to you, it should.

As i said above i was testing hammer with unsuspecting foe and hammer #4/5 were auto crits as of 2 patches ago.

Lets stop the back and forth here. I should point out no one here is new. It has never affected knock downs. Not up for debate unless they ninja changed the trait and last I checked they did not. Do not derail the thread trying to prove a point. This is common knowledge.

First part of the vid.

Last part.

Well done.

Think you misread what I said. I meant Mace/Shield + Sword/Mace. I had no intention of using immobilize just sword superior mobility cripples and final thrust opted in for 100b and tremor for the last bit of cc in case they run. Noting that tremor is a knockdown not a stun it wont trigger unsuspecting but since you can only stun break a knockdown in the process of getting up from it it is possible to use that in your bait tactic and force them to use break that wont work and continue your chain of stuns. Hope that clears that up. I most definitely do know how the traits work lol. The reflect is not part of you main build usually? Ok that makes sense just seemed like a nice trait for roaming considering. Have you fought D/P thief with this set up yet? Even with defensive spec 0 30 30 10 0 does great burst. Also it should be said no thief worth their salt doesn’t run with shadow step so there should be no beating a good one in melee just forcing a draw. I know this is just your second day with the build so I do not expect that you have fought the multitude of builds there are.

Leo G.4501:

If this is duels in WvW, maybe people will start eating Roasted Lotus Root or Saffron Bread :P

I actually considered that a while ago to deal with hammer spammers. More reasons now.

@Daecollo

Dude how many ideas you got in that head of your’s? One of them has surely got to make it into the game at this point.

Puandro.3245:

TheGuy.3568:

Puandro.3245:

Doing a 0/20/20/0/30 M/S GS. Ive only PvE on my war so this was my 2nd night out on him in actual PvP. Build is pretty nice 1v1 and 1v2-3. Also awesome in small group fighting. Gear is zerk and cavalier mix. The build is more about baiting the opponents dodges and stun breakers and then landing the stun for HB and WW.

At least my guess was partly on the money. Are you running melandru or something else? If not how is condition management? Also I think this is the first time I have seen anyone running mace main hand in WvW. It was nice to see that. Might have to pull mine out and try it lol.

Yes Melandru. I dont think a pure melee build for war is truly viable without melandru + Lemongrass + Dogged march but thats just my opinion. While i am new to warrior in PvP ive pretty seasoned PvP player from DAoC and ive WvW on Ele (Main), Mesmer, Ranger, Thief (not very good on thief… :p). Vids are in my signature if you care, Ranger video #2 is pretty good according to the ranger forums.

As for the build being a duelist build that just happened to be on accident. I actually made it to run with my friends 2-5 large group. But i found myself alone at 1 point and managed to 1v3 a warrior/mesmer/ranger (yes horrible ppl) and saw potential so i started solo roaming with it tonight. I think a lot of people see warriors as free kills and it lets me kill people pretty easily. Even after people saw what i did over and over again for like 45 minutes its still easy to bait stuns and land HB and WW. The build itself is awesome in groups since anything pretty much dies in the stun.

Pvp credential don’t matter. I saw you duel already and lost to you what could I say bad lol. I run lyssa as a melee warrior whiles it off the beaten path it does work for me but I agree you usually need melandru to keep up in melee. I suspect the reflect projectiles might be the best part. I can’t help but speculate what it would look like vs melandru. Either way I might make set and try it out as roaming is all I ever do.

As far as warrior being a free kill in WvW that stigma does not exist. So many people run hammer with a zerg that warrior are considered dangerous. Roaming in terms of speed though new to many Sw/x + GS can’t be caught by anything other than a thief (ranger possible but not many run pure melee and no CC to stop the warrior). All that being said seeing mh mace being used so well reminded me that I had one lol.

I would like to know what about running that build with sword/mace as the off set vs gs? I know its near insane to mention warrior without GS but hear me out a sec. Way I see it with Tremor final thrust and the stick ability of sword you could have one of the best Cc and sticking builds out there no bait. Just an idea not a critique.

Either way really nice build. From a BG player to a JQ player “I look forward to killing you soon!”.

4% plus the damage from crushing blow and tremor but if you run with a grenades engineer, warrior, etc you could cap vulnerability. the blast from Warhorn also has to be accounted for with fields. Either way you lose dps.

Puandro.3245:

Doing a 0/20/20/0/30 M/S GS. Ive only PvE on my war so this was my 2nd night out on him in actual PvP. Build is pretty nice 1v1 and 1v2-3. Also awesome in small group fighting. Gear is zerk and cavalier mix. The build is more about baiting the opponents dodges and stun breakers and then landing the stun for HB and WW.

At least my guess was partly on the money. Are you running melandru or something else? If not how is condition management? Also I think this is the first time I have seen anyone running mace main hand in WvW. It was nice to see that. Might have to pull mine out and try it lol.

you talking about the JQ warrior dueling BG players right? If it’s that guy yeah he is good. The specs Mace/Shield with reflect projectile on block. Uses Shield bash into Skullcrack heavy build where goes from that into 100B into whirlwind. Not sure about the rest of the build. Use Dolyak and I suspect melandru + lemongrass for the armor. Honestly its a good duelist spec. No stability hard counter he will kite the duration. Truly a good spec. Not sure what the trait break down and points are so send him a tell and ask him to share. I suspect x/x/20/x/30. I could definitely be wrong though.

That being said if your not a duel setting it’s not a great build without support. Also when thinking about it I suspect a good mesmer or thief with blinds would run circles around it. I imagine ripping his stability, strong roots, running melandru yourself, defy pain and fear could be a flat out counter. Also due to the place (near south’s guard) there was a lot of using terrain to block projectiles while blocks were down. This made it hard to judge the full capability of the build due to the fact in open there isn’t all that much to hide behind. Besides the 2 stuns and cripple from blade trail there isn’t much CC. I kited it for a minutes or so and honestly its possible to simply run from it (ie no sword no hammer no sustained). I suspect though due to the need to be in melee and it being more of a duelist spec I think it might not be as good in a general sense as running sword and hammer.

All that speaks nothing to the player. He dueled well and in a professional manner. I also admit its the first time I lost to another warrior in a while so I was surprised.

The player I think in this case just might be superior. I honestly wanted to jump on my mesmer and see if that spec could handle it. All in all a great duelist.