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Boons are very powerful in this game, and they need counters. Boon stripping is fine to remove one or two boons, but something had to be done about those professions that could generate several boons every few seconds. Besides, having more diversity for boon hate is a cool thing, because in this case, you are punishing them without removing their effects, which leads to different kind of fights than with boon stripping.
Also, boon hate worked perfectly fine in GW1. It was even stronger than what this upcomming patch suggest. In GW1, mesmers could burst by removing enchantments, and necromancers could deal damage each damage enchantments would be applied. Far stronger effects, but then again, that game had healers. And those effects were eprfectly fine at countering offensive elementalists and offensive dervishes, as much as they were fine against monks.
All true, but that all applies to boons being optional. Risk vs reward and all that. For some professions, going boonless is either impossible (guardian) or very hard (elementalist, most traits cause boons). So those professions simply get 20% more damage from warriors.
Another issue with this is that it hurst glass cannon elementalists way more than bunker builds because they don’t have the protection and regeneration to lessen that extra damage. Seeing as how 90% of the eles plays bunker and Anet having stated they want to steer away from that, it seems counterintuïtive to add boon hate. In the end, the bunkers will suffer less than the non-bunkers.
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(edited by ThiBash.5634)
“Eles do have many builds possible.”
Stopped reading here. Which builds are you talking about again?
Possible doesn’t equal good. Which you would have read if you hadn’t stopped reading at the first sentence. He actually agrees with you that other builds aren’t viable.
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Ah, I see. Then again, it also lasts longer AND can be traited for another second, so I don’t find that an acceptable reason not to nerf it also.
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Actually I don’t disagree invul states should not allow you to heal up. That being said you are still susceptible to conditions while in endure pain.
So are we while in Mist Form right? Conditions don’t disappear…
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No, they think the Boons we use is different than the one Guardian has. Guardian has automatic Boon while we have to switch Attunment to achieve it and sarcrifice 5 skill of our being locked out for 9s everytime we switch in and out. Way to think Anet. “Good job” for being a Class Eliminater…
Hehe, yeah. I switch attunements so often they might as well be automatic.
And it’s not like I wasn’t the favorite punching bag already with my staff…guess I’d better go full bunker until the next patchs comes out.
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I wouldn’t mind the change as much if the warrior’s endure pain got the same treatment…
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What I’m curious about is this: we know that D/D are among the more powerful specs. Hence nerfs are a more logical step than buffs.
But what about the collateral damage to non-dagger eles? It’s obvious that they were less powerful than D/D, to the point that people struggled to hold their own. Now boon hate builds are introduced. Dagger users can adapt because they rely less on boons for their actual defenses. Staff users however, need the boons to stay alive. The need the cantrips because they have no frost or shocking auras. They have no ability, and much fewer snares.
Have you considered the fact that these changes may actually hurt the weaker ele builds more than the stronger ones?
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So basically, the D/D cantrip nerf spills over to staff, and the focus that was pretty much for just one thing is now reduced to never being used. And no buffs to compensate. The ele builds that weren’t a problem take a hit they couldn’t afford. Way to go Anet!
What annoys me most of all is them stating that the Guardian doesn’t get nerfs because boon hate was added this patch. What is it we use then? Moa Trading Cards?
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Guardian
-Did not want to bring down with the boon hate changes in place
Apparently the same does not apply to elementalists, who are even more dependant on boons. Nice one.
Also, where’s the warrior ‘immunity skill locks out utilities’ change?
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EDIT : For the vapor blade, don’t you think it’s because the blade returns ? 5 attacks * 2 = 10 times the spell touches the ennmy which means 10*3 seconds of chill.
Yes, that’s probably how it works, but it shouldn’t. :-) If you take Fireball (staff fire 1) for example, that always consumes 3 charges regardless of what you hit. Frozen Ground consumes all charges even though it never deals damage, and doesn’t apply the extra effect. Chain Lightning on the other hand, applies a blind per hit but consumes a charge per cast (for a maximum of 15 blinds).
How many charges are consumed and how many effects are applied varies wildly between all skills, so it’s useful to test your skills in the Mists before you actually play your build. That’s the main thing I wanted to inform you of. It’s not 1 charge per damage number at any rate.
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Did you know you can cause up to 30 seconds of chill on multiple targets with Arcane Power and Dagger water 1?
Thing is, Arcane Power is extremely buggy right now…some skills may take up multiple charges in a single cast, where others (like the earlier mentioned Vapor Blade) don’t consume enough charges.
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So glad I’m not using any of those skills.
But yeah, it does seem unfair that RTL is the only skill to get said nerf. Why is running away with similar skills on other professions ok, but on an ele it’s a problem?
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You can also bring the Ice Bow instead of the Glyph. Gives you twice the AoE per minute, and a few other useful skills as well. And you can drop it as soon as you’re done casting.
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But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.
The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).
No.
No as in ‘no there isn’t’ or ‘no you’re wrong’?
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True, it’s a niche but at the same time, could be used in a non-burst build to finish off a player. The main thing I wanted to emphasize is that there’s more to the skill than you’d think at first glance. For me at least, that’s the case.
You can of course make use of other’s combo fields too. The thing is that if used correctly, the skill can do quite a bit more than just provie a bit of toughness.
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I used an owl but still, I was impressed with the burst. Of course, I play staff ele most of the time so a single target burst is bound to impress me.
But consider this: seeing how everything gets watered down if it gets a bigger range, and the ranger’s damage is also weakened a bit because they have pets…can you honestly say the longbow is that bad? I mean, it’s got 1500 range and you can still burst stuff down in mere seconds. Sure, it takes a glass cannon build but don’t you agree that with that range, having more defense and the same damage would be overpowered?
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JonPost your thoughts on this internet forum thread and I will read them.
Jon
Let me say first that I really appreciate this. It may be a minor thing to some, but the fact that you go out and ask the players for their opinions instead of blindly chaging stuff is something that should be greatly commended. I really really like that you’re doing this.
As for the jellyfish, I like the way the current one looks. However, if you feel that the new one will look even better, than I’ll trust your word on it. So my vote goes to the second one.
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There was a video of a scepter user not too far back that used Hurl in combination with switching to Air to create a massive instant spike. Combined with the combo finishers bit, it gave me a new insight into the skill.
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I think this debate got a little derailed here based on the wrong focus. Even if it irritates and/or upsets, you and other support players must come to terms with this: Regardless of preferred playstyles there are more effective playstyles than others and are reinforced by gameplay mechanics. Support roles need a lot of love but has a long way to go and I think that those of us who stick with it through future changes will find ourselves more skilled than pure DPS.
But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.
The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).
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Clay my good man…I’ve given you several arguments why support isn’t inferior to dps and yet all you do is trying to discredit me by pointing out flaws in my discussion style.
If you come up with any good arguments for the actual discussion, let me know and I’ll get back here. As for the whole debating rules discussion, if it makes you happy, you win ok?
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The reason I argue here at the moment is because I strongly dislike people who argue debating techniques instead of coming up with actual arguments. It’s often because they have none.
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That is not true at all.
You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.
Do you think that everything else is worthless?
Who is using strawmen now? You can state for a fact that breathable air is also neccesary for life, yet by your way of phrasing that would equal support as it isn’t listed as neccesary. Yet I wouldn’t go without it, and I imagine neither would you.
Now, if you were to argue that a player going for nothing but support, and no dps at all…then I could agree that he weren’t truly neccesary. But as it stands now, support is a natural part of gameplay. When I lay down a fire field for damage, I also open up the possibility for combos that cause burning. Hence I’m supporting my party’s damage abilities WHILE playing as a dps. That’s how support really works. It’s not like GW1 where you’re either a healer or you’re not.
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(edited by ThiBash.5634)
Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?
See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.
That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.
I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.
Fine, I’ll bite:
clayThe point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary.
If something is unneccesary, then per definition it’s worthless.
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Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!
If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?
Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.
If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.
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About that bandwit cap…
One possible fix though could be to drastically lower the amount of stacks skills cause, and increase the damage per stack. That would keep the damage the same, but if each dedicated condition dealer can only get to say 10 stacks max by themselves, there’s be room for other players causing conditions as well.
For example, the earth scepter skill Stone Shards causes 3 stacks of bleeding. It could also cause just 1 stack that deals 3 times the damage. Same effect. 1/3 of the server load.
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(edited by ThiBash.5634)
All MMO’s do it this way and I am not sure why. Why is GW2 forcing the guilds and groups idea. They half exp and loot between everyone that fights with us.
ArenaNet agrees with you. That’s why they’ve made the game so that regardless of the number of players, each player gets the full amount of loot.
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Though off-topic, fixes for Sottz are coming in the next release.
Very glad to read that.
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What’s so wrong with using your per to supplement your bow attacks? The ranger is capable of bursting a target down in a flash at 1500 range (at least it works on golem dummies). I’ve yet to play a ranged class that can do the same consistently every few seconds.
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The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.
So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?
So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?
As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.
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Random Grandmaster Earth Trait: Dwarven Descendant- Gain Obsidian Flesh when you lose more than 15% health in less than seven seconds
7 seconds is a long time. I’d say 1-2 seconds. Or 90% health.
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@Tog&Fuzz:
True. I’m not saying that dagger off-hand doesn’t perform better in most cases. But stating that the focus has no CC as LordByron suggested…that’s just plain nonsense.
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I am sorry but this is foolishness. Most classes have very limited stun break options
True and it should certainly stay that way, but there’s a ‘but’. On other professions, the stunbreakers are spread across various skill types. This allows for several kinds of builds, as each build can still carry a stunbreaker without going into non-themed stuff.
For example, the Ranger has a signet and 2 survival skill that breaks stun. That means both signet builds and survival builds have a thematic stun.
The engineer has 2 elixirs and 2 gadgets.
The guardian has 2 shouts and 2 meditations.
On Elementalists, we only have cantrips to break stuns. Combined with the fact that cantrips have the best trait synergy, this makes them pretty much a must have choice. Some cantrips, like lightning flash and mist form are good even without traits, and pure awesome with.
Cantrips get all the good stuff, and since having at least 1 stunbreaker is vital in PvP and high end PvE, it’s little wonder everyone flocks to them. If one of the signets gained a stunbreaker instead of the cantrips, I’d bet we’d see a lot more signet builds.
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dictionary.comRaid
noun
A sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed: a police raid on a gambling ring.
That’s what they mean. It’s not a 20+ players instance just because World of Kittencraft uses the term to describe that. Just like how some castles have dungeons that you can enter with a random group of tourists, instead of just 5.
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You lack any CC skills and mobility with it unfortunately so its only a pve thing.
Mobility yes, but CC…no.
Focus has a ranged stun, a ranged daze and a ranged chill. How much more cc do you want in just 8 skills?
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Seeing as how scepter and focus are looked down upon, there’s mostly just 2 combinations you’ll see…staff and D/D. And most people only use staff in zergs and dungeons…so that should explain it.
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Wasn’t there a rune that increased the effectiveness of swiftness slightly?
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I don’t understand how that could cause my game to crash. Maybe someone at Arenanet doesn’t like me.
That I doubt. But I do agree…it’s an interesting bug.
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Happened to me too, apparently totally randomly as far as I can tell. Sometimes my mouse gets ‘stuck on view’ as if I kept both mouse buttons pressed too. And then there’s the automatic deselecting of targets.
Sounds to me like sometimes the mouse gets stuck in a certain effect and doesn’t notice a button being released.
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Indeed. The skill summons a toy golem and is replaced with a ‘leave brawl’ button when you’re in costume brawl mode. It should be a vanity skill only, yet somehow it still initiates brawl. The added downside is that where the Pirate and Chef costumes et a cool ‘pet’, the toy golem is de-summoned instantly.
All of this wouldn’t be much of a problem to me, if it hadn’t been a paid item. But since it is, I feel it should be working flawlessly (or as well as possible anyway). I’ve been reporting this bug for months and it should be easy to fix since it’s merely a matter of changing a flag.
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While not always present, this is a persistent bug that I’ve been reporting on for quite a few months now. Please from the bottom of my toes, fix this, because it’s really interfering with regular gameplay.
Sometimes, during fights, the game randomly decides to deselect your target or select an ally for you. As you can imagine, this can be quite the deal breaker, especially when you try to burst something down, only to have everything miss instead. As far as targetting options go, I’ve tried everything, from auto target on/off to locktarget to whatever else is in the list. At first I thought it was an issue with ground targetting, but just a few minutes ago I experienced an unlucky streak with a weapon without ground targetting skills: 3 times I selected a target and the game jumped right back to one of my party members.
It’s not an issue with stealth, culling, misclicking or else. It happens even during auto attacks when I’m not doing anything else.
Please from the bottom of my toes, fix this, because it’s really interfering with regular gameplay.
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If it explodes and causes “damage” in costume brawl then it is a costume brawl skill.
It doesn’t.
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Skill 5 (summon toy golem) of the Fancy Winter Scepter initiates costume brawl even though it’s not a brawl skill.
And to be honest, I’m getting quite fed up with waiting for this to be fixed. I’ve reported it several times over the past few months. It’s something I’ve paid real money for and the fix should be fairly straightforward.
If it was a free item I’d feel different. But in this case, I didn’t even buy part of the gems with ingame gold. I actually paid full money and got a defective item in return.
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Decisions like these makes you want to seek out the person responsible and inform them that pre-school diploma’s do not give you the neccesary skills to run a gaming company…
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only be accessible by an extremely small portion of the player base, so its probably not worth the time.
Then again, when it IS accessed, you get over 100 players enjoying said content.
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There’s a reason why my guild always goes for the Tier 3 to get our personal rewards. That way, we get a decent shot at BrekkaBek, PooBaDoo, Trillia or Michiele.
We got to Komali once though. Had we known that boon removal was mandatory BEFORE the fight, we might have beaten him too.
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Sure, you can still create builds that require relatively little input from the player. But apart from dragon events and low level PvE, you can get a lot more out of a fight other than standing still and swinging that sword.
Not to mention most mobs will have your head for standing still autoattacking. There’s only a very small amount of mobs which you can survive against with that tactics.
Indeed.
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The main reason why the Order of Whispers allows the player into the Chantry is because they recognize the potential the player has in saving the world. That’s why the player doesn’t ‘disappear’ like most others that stumble upon the Chantry.
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Like most Sylvari, he’s too perfect and excels at everything. I prefer Seiren over Trahearne any day…especially since she had to make room to fit him in.
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Yes I did, number one ability on your bar does the exact same thing as all the other MMO’s Colin Johanson was seemingly trying to ridicule with his quoted sentence. GW2 has the very same thing, I don’t get it why.
Many weapons have a chain in their first skill, rather than a single skill. The elementalist can swap between 4 auto attacks constantly.
Sure, you can still create builds that require relatively little input from the player. But apart from dragon events and low level PvE, you can get a lot more out of a fight other than standing still and swinging that sword.
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