Guild Wars 2

@CRAIG

i said before SB 5 (IA) is only better usually on elevation changes. other than that HS gets you better distance per time and initiative. period. care to wager lemme know ill make a video. not that you’ll pay when u lose but ill give you one hint siince you dotn seem to play thief much. onlytime you get 900 distance with IA is if you are a bad thief and cant multi task or if you are rooted from ranger pet. other than that you get about 600-625 depending on combat mode or not. :P

Dual.8953:

Excalibur.9748:

Travlane.5948:

other classes have just as much energy…like rangers/engineers. we only have like a couple more evades…. and the thing about our evade is most of them are 1/4 second for a 1 second or 1.25 second skill. so we use the skill and are left open most of the time for free dmg. like death blossom. a very risky skill.

and yes we are a lil more slippery than most but not so much. if i was given the choice in losing all the extra evades that we have than other classes to gain “protection , stability, invulnerability, aegis, blocking etc….low HP pool…crap defense/medium armor” u can mark my words i will trade those 2 or 3 evades any and every day for the other things not sure there is a thief that wouldnt.

but would you trade stealth?

Some might, some don’t use stealth at all, but in all honestly, that’s like asking a Necro if they’d trade their Deathshroud for evades.

Personally I wouldn’t because stealth and style is why I chose Thief, if I wanted something else I’d hop on my Engie or Guard. Both of which are can do more then any thief I’ve seen, with less effort.

im talking about stun break on shadow return. we shouldnt have lost it. he said well you have evades you dont need stun break. and i went off about armor HP and boons etc so its why we had it in the first place. and i was talking about trading the evades he so eloquently mentioned we had which we dont realloy have THAT much more than other classes. not talkin about trading stealth. never mentioned it.

Excalibur.9748:

Travlane.5948:

other classes have just as much energy…like rangers/engineers. we only have like a couple more evades…. and the thing about our evade is most of them are 1/4 second for a 1 second or 1.25 second skill. so we use the skill and are left open most of the time for free dmg. like death blossom. a very risky skill.

and yes we are a lil more slippery than most but not so much. if i was given the choice in losing all the extra evades that we have than other classes to gain “protection , stability, invulnerability, aegis, blocking etc….low HP pool…crap defense/medium armor” u can mark my words i will trade those 2 or 3 evades any and every day for the other things not sure there is a thief that wouldnt.

but would you trade stealth?

ummm….protection is ALWAYS better than stealth. unless u have it traited for condi removal …health regen…and init regen…then stealth is better. dont forget we still get hit in stealth. take alot of AOE and wild swings too. point is that we should have stun break on a stick. we lose too much elsewhere and that was kinda the point. sword is slow and can ONLY work with direct dmg. and if u have direct dmg build u have low defense and low hp….which means if u get stunned ur dead fast…which means you need stun break on a stick…which m eans without stunbreak on a stick s/d isnt a very good build….which as you can see not many are playing s/d as before bc they realize that hey…s/d isnt that good without stability/stun break. the end. lol

yeah. atleast the 33% does. ive tested it. so no use on the 15%. not sure the 15% will do it alone too but so i have heard it will :P . go with hydromancy if ur switching alot like i do. or doom for poison. poison really kills their heals. its like a 4k hit while they heal.

@aberrant not true… tested and proved ! check this out. have an asura stand infront of a norn. you can still click on the norn behind the asuran player! now put the asuran player behind the norn. you cant click on the asuran player. this shows that boxes are not the same. figure that one out. let me know when u get back with an answer

Excalibur.9748:

Travlane.5948:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

I can make a video showing but takes time and experience says HS is 90% of the time better. 2 HS gives 50% more distance than IA for the same init.

make the video.

in any case, IA is definately better for burst.

sure. make a bet first? so its worth mmy time? 20g ?

there are a few…..char has a nice pistol attack and the green creatures(wow mental fart here) have a nice root which is invaluable to a thief. however a smaller class is harder to click although its said to not be so. which is wrong and can be proven. asura are harder to target. dont pick a big class if your an engineer/thief.

other classes have just as much energy…like rangers/engineers. we only have like a couple more evades…. and the thing about our evade is most of them are 1/4 second for a 1 second or 1.25 second skill. so we use the skill and are left open most of the time for free dmg. like death blossom. a very risky skill.

and yes we are a lil more slippery than most but not so much. if i was given the choice in losing all the extra evades that we have than other classes to gain “protection , stability, invulnerability, aegis, blocking etc….low HP pool…crap defense/medium armor” u can mark my words i will trade those 2 or 3 evades any and every day for the other things not sure there is a thief that wouldnt.

its ok. only good with init spam builds like d/d evade condi tho.

doenst ur dmg suck in this build? kitten prolly like at 25% crit rate and 10% crit dmg? also u dont need sigil of paralyzation …it wont add any. just the 33% is fine. or the 15% is fine by itself. many forum threads say y0ou onlyu need 1 as it rounds up 1 second total with either.

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

Lol you whining cause you no longer have perma Sbs , get over it. That nerf was long overdue , now you either swim or sink and coming here complaining implies you desire to sink —-—————Au revoir!

long overdue? let me ask you. and dont be an kitten here when u answer. you think that thieves shouldnt have stability or protection or aegis or burning or invulnerability now that stun break on a stick is taken away? honestly answer that. and remember that we also have crap defense and lowest HP pool in game.

Kyrion.2749:

I always thought that shadow return was the compensation for having practically no access to stability on this class.

I mean: “fine, you thieves only have stability with a long recharge elite skill BUT you have an easy access stun-B if you equip swords”, which is not as good as stability itself, but at least it allowed for quick knock-down recovery.

Obviously I was wrong, or simply A-net doesn’t care a **** about it.

i have to say. you really hit the nail on the head here. having stun break on a stick really does make up for not having protection….stability….aegis…and invulnerability. well said man. anet…mind explaining?

Raidium.3916:

Hurtappl.6405:

OP… I dont know about you or how you do things but I already have good timing, make correct positional changes, and am aware of my surroundings! Thief isnt any harder to play because i already do those things… in every character, every class, every GAME I play!!

I think you mean to say.. the class is hard for YOU to play?

You stated in another post that you always get blinded by d/p, do you really make correct positional changes? I think thief is hard for YOU to play.

thief is hard to play. hop on urs for a duel and ill show you a lil humility :P even if u are really good i can kill 95% of thieves out there. thief is hard to master. any class can be played to a “playable” lvl.

DanH.5879:

lordbachus.6091:

As an avid player of all 8 classes i never understood all the complaints about the thief, because they are actually one of the harder classes to play in PvP, because they require a lot of timing and making the right positional changes, on top of that they need to be really aware of their surroundings as they die when someone catches them with CC while fighting someone else. They also need to know the other classes very good because they rely heavilly on prediction of other classes moves and skills.

Sadly thief had some tactical advantages in PvP ( stealth and movement) that are way less important for PvE, but since the priority of Anet is ballancing for the kitten sPvP they really suffer in Openworld PvE and instanced PvE

I totally disagree with thieves being OP, they are quite hard to master, something i am still working on myself. But what works against thieves is that because of stealth they can choose their targets and they allways aim for the weak and wounded firts, with their mobillity and roaming capabilities, they turn up in SPvP and turn the tide of battle in previously equall fights, not because they are OP, but because this is what they are best in, this and escaping with a sliver of life left.

Currently thief and ranger are the weakest classes in my opinion, but taken intoo consideration that in my opinion Ranger is much easier to master this makes thief currently sit this makes an average players thief sit in the lowest place of the foodchain.

dude, the thief is the most OP class of them all 8, even in pve
where you stealth without shame, while the rest of us get downed by mobs

so? i would trade stealth anyday for some guard skills/boons. my guard can go to cursed shore and stand still without taking 1 step and kill 6 risen on him at the same time without being downed. he will kill all of them and pretty kitten ed fast. thief cant even do this with 3. 3 and he would die fast! so your point is null and invalid. go troll elsewhere. even the latest survey says thieves/rangers suck :P

thieves are fun and good at 1 v 1. we suck at everything else. actually we are good blast finishers in wvw for pre battle buffs. but soon as ur done with 4x Cluster bomb then just afk til the fights over bc ur not much use :P

tired of hearing really dumb threads like this. what does it affect if a thief can stay in stealth for a 1 hour with 1 skill for 1 init? nothing….. doesnt affect team score in spvp or anything in wvw. the ONLY thing it might affect is 1 v 1 and THAT has no place in this game. so again another dumb thread with pointless QQing.

flyingfox.6150:

So before, dagger thieves were spamming heartseeker. Even the most unpopular of builds and personally my favorite, P/P thieves are only using Unload.

Not saying the initiative system needs to be changed but man, at least take some effort to make other skills competitive and not one uber dominant skill with each weapon.

thieves are built for burst…so they burst then they are out of init and sitting ducks. be happy they spam HS….its actually a good thing for you and bad for them. Unload is a bunch of small hits that add up but if u roll u dodge 3 hits. :P run back and forth and some miss too.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

I can make a video showing but takes time and experience says HS is 90% of the time better. 2 HS gives 50% more distance than IA for the same init.

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

I gave you the numbers lol. HS = 450 range for 3 initiative. 2 HS = 900 range for 6 initiative. IA is 900 range for 6 initiative. Am I missing something here?

ur missing the “i play thief” experience. IA is about 625 more like 600 maybe a tit less. see that is somethign only a truly experienced thief would know. oh wait…im sorry do you actually cast IA while standing still? well then yes you are right its 900 distance :P my bad. i was figuring we all kind of cast IA on the run….losing 1/3rd of the distance. but i guess technically if u look at wiki ur right :P. its like when you use HS….its actually kind of slow when using 1 bc of the aftercast time to reset….but if u spam them its worth it for distance/time. thats where we differ. perfect world vs actual playing .

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Well, let’s do the math.

Base movement = 300u/s
+ Swiftness (33%) = 400u/s
or
+ minor Swiftness (25%) = 375u/s

To cover 900u with swiftness (33%) = 2.25s.
To cover 900u with min.swiftness (25%) = 2.4s.
To cover 900u with 2x Heartseeker = 1.5s (.75×2)
To cover 900u with IA = instant

If you factor in pre-cast time and after-cast time, Heartseeker gets even slower.

However, unlike Heartseeker, IA is not affected by speed boost like swiftness. So if the speed boost is factored in, Heartseeker can cover farther than IA for the same amount of Initiatives.

Unfortunately, Heartseeker is also affected by speed debuff making IA’s consistency better in this situation.

Another factor with Heartseeker is the terrain, you can cover more grounds down hill, but unfortunate, it suffers uphill. IA remains consistent in this situation.

In Conclusion, the only deciding factor here is flexibility and consistency that allows better predictability so Shortbow’s IA is much better than Heartseeker. IA also allows you to travel vertically and on different level platform.

MOST of the time IA is used once…espeically in battle….MOST of the time HS is used3x but lest just say 2x for even comparison….for distance of 450 each. so we have 900 distance for HS (in battle) and we have 625 ish for IA. 6 init vs 6 init. not sure how at any point IA is better unless terrain spots give you an elevation advantage. HS is always better granted you have auto target off. IA is a crap skill and the arrow flight + cast time is equal to that of heartseeker so we are really talking about distance now.

HS gets a slight edge bc of init costs per distance. also HS goes about 600 ish when you have swift/signet up out of battle so out of battle HS owns IA by 50%

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Did you just skip over the sentence where I explained how hs is the same range as ia for the same amount of initiative?And yes, other classes have blinks/rushes or whatever, but they aren’t spammable like the thief’s, or as numerous. Not to mention stealth on demand to avoid combat (which if you didn’t know, slows you down). Oh, and btw, necros have perma swiftness with spectral walk and warhorn, so that’s another point wrong for you.

its not …HS is more distance per initiative. you said its the same as IA for the same init. i understand how you could misunderstand as they are similar statements tho. and necros usually dont use spectral walk :P most anyway. d/d and staff is what my necro uses in any kind of wvw/pvp. i do like warhorn but i feel i get more out of d/d

@icarus. there was a vote for that. WVW large scale. which includes group function :P small scale is more of self interest builds.

btw p/d condi is amazing. prolly just dont know how to play it. grab any other class than thief and i will drop it quick to show you :P.

but allt hat aside thief is almsot dead last in every relevant aspect in the game. EVEN if you take back every single one of the nerfs we wouldnt climb higher than 1 spot…and thats being generous.

also d/p kinda sux unless u have a 1 v 1 or scenario. or 2 mediocre players v 1. its an annoying build and cant kill much unless they are alone. think of it more as a dueling build. thieves dont have a build that allows them to take on multiple players or stay alive long enough.

i have suggested this before to anet that all the have to do is make death blossom 1/2 or 3/4 second evade for a 1 sec kill and thieves will have survivability in crowds. atleast a little. even on withdraw. just a lil long would help immensly. or on FS. the problem is we are taking dmg on our evades bc the animation time is longer than the evade by 100% or 200% depending on the skill. so the skill becomes a liability more or less.

Craig.2403:

Travlane.5948:

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

ummm… bow is the same speed as heart seeker, and faster with cliffs to teleport up to. Two heartseekers = 900 range for 6 initiative (assuming no swiftness) and 1 infiltrator’s arrow = 900 range for 6 initiative. And the time it takes for initiative to regen is the same. So unless I’m missing something, they are the same speed, and bow is faster in some cases where you can teleport to the top of a cliff if you know the teleport mechanics well. You also have another 1200 range teleport, and a 900 range (1500 if traited) steal to use on ambients as you’re running. Because of these many teleports you can move faster than swiftness. The classes that do have perma swiftness don’t have the teleports that a thief does making them end up slower.

its about distance. not speed. distance and quantity of uses. you get 2 infil arrows for like 1200 distance vs 5 HS for 45 distance. do the math :P lol ….mesmer has blink….warriors rangers and guardians have many leaps/whirls. necro is really the only slow class. engie even gets like 1700 distance with rocketboots

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I guess another round of beating from a Nerf Bat to everyone else only because Warriors are the worst in PvP.

Talk about bias and dishonest.

warriors are only so so in small scale combat… in large scale they are just as important as guards.

Irapi.5937:

Just looked over all the result, to me this looks like a case of people voting on things they don’t even play, but just want to up their profession. That ranger comes in so low is understandable, as they are still fairly weak in most aspects of the game except for tpvp. The only results that don’t seem like bogus to me are the tpvp ones.

The credibility of this test already reaches below every level when it shows how thief is considered one of the worst professions for open world. Really, a profession that can do any interact skill point without having to fight, a profession that moves faster and more efficient then any other class is considered one the worst for exploration and events?

I agree party on the dungeon part, thief isn’t the best for group support except for stealth revives and for the so easily overlooked blind tanking. On the zerg part tough: how is having a personel assassin of squishy targets not incredibly handy? A thief in zerg WvW shouldn’t be fighting like any other class, they should instead do what they are good at: kill fast, efficient and unseen. Take for example a ballista in the back of the enemy zerg. It can plow trough your men like a knife trough butter. But wait, there is a thief. Shadow refuge, wait tilll the stealth is full, run trough the zerg, kill the ballista, move in and out to keep it out of work and there you go, artillery gone.

The problem with thiefs is that there are so many bad ones. The majority of thief players doesn’t even know how most utilitys work. A good thief can be handy in every aspect of this game, as long as you remember that you are not a warrior.

you are whats wrong with every QQer in this game. thief is not good in open world. if the game was called DUEL WARS yes then you sir…would be correct. since its guild wars…and guilds are usually large and everything in guild wars is 8v8 to 120v120 ish which makes you wrong.

there are so many bad thiefs that skew the results? really….so shouldnt we overall suck in the game and have everyone beat most of us making the QQers far and few between? haha yeah thats sounds like what it is.

ok you also say thakittens a case of people not playing enough of other classes? well then why do we have QQers in the first place? another fail. if people did play thief they would realize even more so that we suck overall and are really Underpowered.

the results are fine and would be ONLY slightly more accurate if they had a 2nd place and 3rd place voting as well. would only emphasize the results he has tho so wouldnt make much of a difference obviously.

may i also point out this was not placed in the thief or in the ranger forums. it was in the general guild wars forums as to be focusing on being an unbiased survey. another win for the original poster. you may not agree and if u dont go post your answers and join the extreme minority.

Craig.2403:

hackdZ.6352:

None of this is really surprising.

Anyone who’s played a Thief to a reasonably high level should know all of this already, it just irk’s me (as a Thief) that people still complain to the forums every time a Thief 1v1’s them.

“Thieves are OP, Stealth is OP, Backstab is OP!” These people fail to realise that the Thief nerfs that have come since launch have made the class almost useless in every OTHER aspect of the game. In WuvWuv group battles, unless you’re spec’d for Venom Share you don’t really have alot to offer, other than Group Stealth, Blind Fields & Blast finishers on the SB. (Now with nerf’d range)

However, I would have thought Thieves would be up there for exploration at least. So many cool (albeit Buggy) Shadowsteps to take advantage of, and just the general manoeuvrability of the class makes it seem ideal?

Even with the group stealth aspect, a mesmer can do much better with veil. It only takes one veil to stealth the entire zerg. I agree though on the exploration. Signet of shadows and shortbow allow you to travel faster than any other class if you know the mechanics of the teleports well.

wrong. bow is slower than heartseekr. learn theif b4 u make claims like that. many / most classes have a forum of perma swift other than thief/necro……thief has 25% on his signet which is obv less than 33% so wrong again. :P fail man fail

next time make 3 surveys. worst in each group. 2nd worst in each group. 3rd worst. your results will be impecable.

ive been screaming this at the top of my keyboard for many many months:

“I WILL BE GLAD TO HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION ABOUT THIEVES BEING OP WHEN SOMBODY CAN POINT OUT WHERE THEY ARE OP IN A RELEVANT PART OF THE GAME? PVP? SPVP? TPVP? WVW? PVE? …….DARE ANYONE TO CLAIM ONE OF THESE. KEEP IN MIND 1v1 HAS NO PLACE IN THIS GAME. HENCE THE TITLE OF THE GAME”

no one has ever answer this challenge so what i suggested is to undo all the nerfs up to jan 1 2013. they arent needed since we are only decent at dueling. thank you in advance anet. maybe next time you guys can get off your butts and do somethign like this yourself rather than listen to people who QQ on your forums. you know just a lil insight on QQers for you ANET…… are people more likely to write a letter to restaurant corporate if they had a good time or bad time? 9/10 times its when they have a bad experience….my extensive work in that line tells me that so believe me when i say so. its the same on here. if u have 9 /10 people crying theres90 other poeple satisfied that dont bother bc they dont see a need. DUH

how much is the steal usually for with normal healing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Travlane.5948:

GRAND TOTAL of all dmg over 5 seconds = 13,645 dmg

Burn only last for 3s by the way.

1) Use Steal/Infil sig right at the end of heals for 5 secs of fire dmg

That’s unreliable using HIS since you’re just asking to get interrupted.

Considering:

going to withdraw and using gap closers to make burn hit

That’s the best heal to use here and to proc your Rune, you have to Steal -> Withdraw then watch your target burn.

The best way to deliver your conditions in one big pay load is to;
1) Basilisk Venom -> CnD
2) Swap -> Skale Venom
3) Sneak Attack -> Steal -> Withdraw

This delivery also works well with any x/D weapon set.

By the way, just 5pts into DA will give you a 10s Poison on steal so you can grab some other Sigil than Doom.

condition duration = longer times :P

i …personally…use HIS only when invis…i make a h abbit of this.

i basicially run a similar combo but time differently to get max dmg out of it . i also dont run 5 in DA for this build bc it cant afford it. the CONDI removal is a 100% need for this build or it has no chance. even 10 secs of poison removed is no bueno. i used sigil of doom so i could drop the traits for condi removal. if u look at it like i basically traded poison on steal for condi removal and hydro sigil for doom

oh re-capping so its scoring for your team. i got you. but 45 secs on recharge doesnt seem that helpful…especially when it wont go thru walls…no?

Lightsbane.9012:

Travlane.5948:

MattyjRulz.2840:

I’m still having a lot of fun, I only play in PvE and WvW. If you’re having doubts about thief why not try other classes anyway?

Thief is (in my opinion) in a good place right now as far as balance goes.

u cant thing shortbow or pistol is in a good place….

or our lack of boons or hp or defense without having 1st place burst :P srry we had our burst cut 33% with much alone!

anyway there are a few major problems other than that too. like how we only have 3 or MAYBE 4 utilities to choose from bc the others are truly not viable.

or how you can have all berserk arrmor but depending if u put 30 30 10 0 0 for full dmg or 0 0 10 30 30 for 50% less dmg……shouldnt be such a big swing due to traits although there is bc our base dmg need to be higher…as anet said before.

i am not saying that we are the only ones that need work but making crap decision every patch is making this game die. period. most are waiting to jump ship when the next big MMORPG comes out. then you can atleast cut GW2 players in half.. AT least.

you have the same armor as engineer and ranger. saying ‘we don’t have the same armor/hp’ is ridiculous. stack something other than zerkers if that’s your complaint. also, if that is indeed true that thief gets less armor rating, deal with it. that’s the tradeoff for being able to 12k backstab.

tell you what. go put full knights armor on an engineer and full knights on a thief. then get a player from another server to beat on them both equally…exactly equally….then you might understand. i play engineer guardian necro warrior and thief….Thief is my main however and when i say we are much more squishy its bc we are….we can trait 30 in SA for toughness and full knights we still die in a blink. more so than any other class. learn other classes and ull agree man.

YuiRS.8129:

Thief was crazy OP. Thief is still OP with MH Dagger builds, but it’s a bit more manageable. Another nerf to MH Dagger is needed (reduced HS and BS damage), maybe to some evasion abilities and a buff to P/P, S/P and a few utilities is needed and then Thief will be in a good place.

ur bonkers man. thief is not op. ill prove it with questions. obv u wont answer them truthfully so i will for you!

Can a good player of other professions beat a good thief? YES
Can 2 people of medium skill beat a good thief most of the time? YES
Can 10 thieves beat a group of 10 mixed classes? RARELY
Is thief one of the top 2 or 3 1v1 classes? YES
Is a thief in the bottom 2 group classes? YES
Is 1v1 important/ relevant in GW2? NO

Only a HORRIBLE player says a thief is OP. they were at teh very beginning of the game and even that is arguable bc they bring nothing to group play and the game is named after group playing. funny right? when 1 v 1 is relevant then i will consider entertaining a OP talk on thieves. until then we are one of the most underpowered classes in game. we get str8 up owned in larger fights. so fast we cant react no matter how good we are.

Authority.6145:

Leadfoot.9071:

Any thoughts on S/P builds? Are they just not viable at all with the current condi-heavy meta? I would trade FS/LS for head shot black powder any day.

My personal opinion post-patch is still that D/P is suicidal. I believe I can justify that if you require me to do so.

S/D builds are still viable. Not in the sense of pre-patch but in the sense that with Shadow Trap you are able to do great decaps and force the enemy team to send sometimes even two people to take care of you.

what do u mean by decaps?

Volrath.1473:

thief condi builds are very bad at the current meta, every necro, mesmer, engi, ele will have no problem taking you down…

thief/engie are the only tough ones. some troll ele builds too. the rets drop fast. :P

Sarrow.2785:

Ive tried runes of balthazar on withdraw. Its hard to land the fire proc. Anyone who has tried centaur runes will know what I mean but the effect isnt triggered when you hit the ability but when the heal takes effect, ie at the end of the roll. This means you need to actively roll into enemies for it to work. HIS will be easier, but its half as frequent. This is why I abandoned the runeset as being inefficient. Glad to see others are thinking outside the box though.

I tried it with a sb/sb condi build with geomancy sigils back when it wasnt hard to put out consistant weakness. The damage was actually frightening. One thing I loved was caltrop+stealing to a ranger and using their heal pool. You clustered at your feet onto him while healing for 1k+ each time. Ah the memories. That build is unviable now due to the weakness change.

Some thoughts occur with your build: when bleed duration is so low its difficult to apply enough pressure. You’re trading this for other condis but poison wont help an awful lot as the extra damage is nice but its more for the cover/anti heal and the fire will proc only every 30 secs, torment 45 secs. Will your bleeds be enough in the meantime to make them worry? Also i think any p/d build not heavily investing in stealth is shooting itself in the foot. Compare what youre missing both offensively and defensively Im sure you will come to the same conclusion.

fire procs every 15 secs (well 21 when paired with my steal) but its alot of dmg u dont have to hang around for. i took out torment just now and im using different skills so trying to see what fits best. build is working really well so far…..more so in wvw bc its hard to get high condi duration in spvp.

considering dropping all vitality traits or some for deadly arts. still thinkikng.

ok so im working on a hybrid build that can deal with any class yet still have some sort of respectable defense. this is not perfect but i will say has alot of potential from what i have tested so far.

Weapons: p/d – p/d using 2x sigil of energy / 2x sigil of doom
Runes: 6x rune of balthazar
Armor: full carrion
Accs: Full carrion
Jewels: Full carrion.
Traits:
0
0
10 IV
30 III X XII
30 VI VII XII

UTILITIES: HIS Scale Venom/Infil Sig/Blind Powder/Thieves Guild

origin: was an adaptation of me tryign to make d/d evade condi work but was too prone to condition/aoe dmg. went to p/d and d/d then to p/d and p/d finally.

With a base of 1400 condition dmg(being conservative)

FIRE = 680 dmg per second x 5 seconds applied totaling 3400 dmg
POISON= 224 dmg per second x 5 seconds applied totaling 1120 dmg.
BLEED=113 dmg per sec per stack (avg 5 stacks over 5 sec) totaling 2825 dmg.
TORMENT= 440dmg(x2 if moving) per second x 5 seconds applied totaling 4400 dmg.

total condition dmg over 5 seconds is 11,745 damage.

Direct dmg per sneak attack on avg = 950 dmg
average sneak attacks per 5 secs = 2 which totals 1900dmg

GRAND TOTAL of all dmg over 5 seconds = 13,645 dmg

Thoughts: i dont jump out of the gate with scale venom and sigil of doom use. i usually let the opponent think im another knockoff bleed build. after several uses of sneak attack i feel if he has condi removal or not and if he does i use my combo after he cleanses. and at this point most enemies are not aware they have extra conditions on them and you really get to take advantage of it.

Notes/Tips:

1) Use Steal/Infil sig right at the end of heals for 5 secs of fire dmg
2) Use Steal/Infil sig with CnD if its a range opponent.

Questions:

Is balth runes bugged? shouldnt they burst a little faster or differently?

Considering:

going to withdraw and using gap closers to make burn hit
dropping sigil of energy for hydromancy
dropping 20 points in trickery for 20 in SA (prolly wvw only)

So i noticed ive been able to drop every class with this build but my defense still isnt to where i would like it……even with all the HP but thats slightly due to needing HIS instead of withdraw and only having 10 in SA. but still lots of dodges. i really like this build and am also considering dropping blind powder for SR incase of emergencies…hrm idk.

MattyjRulz.2840:

I’m still having a lot of fun, I only play in PvE and WvW. If you’re having doubts about thief why not try other classes anyway?

Thief is (in my opinion) in a good place right now as far as balance goes.

u cant thing shortbow or pistol is in a good place….

or our lack of boons or hp or defense without having 1st place burst :P srry we had our burst cut 33% with much alone!

anyway there are a few major problems other than that too. like how we only have 3 or MAYBE 4 utilities to choose from bc the others are truly not viable.

or how you can have all berserk arrmor but depending if u put 30 30 10 0 0 for full dmg or 0 0 10 30 30 for 50% less dmg……shouldnt be such a big swing due to traits although there is bc our base dmg need to be higher…as anet said before.

i am not saying that we are the only ones that need work but making crap decision every patch is making this game die. period. most are waiting to jump ship when the next big MMORPG comes out. then you can atleast cut GW2 players in half.. AT least.

the TRUE problem anet has is the fact instead of improving the game they are degrading skills to balance rather than increasing others. game should be cutting edge not dumbed down more and more so the QQers are happy. make the QQers stronger if it is a true / legit problem. thief is getting much more boring since all these nerfs.

so
basuically if combat is -50% and you gain +50% you are running even as if ur not in combat

it maxes at 33% out of combat but you can get 50% bonus in combat so not sure how much total that is.

if u tune down d/p then d/d is way OP.

oZii.2864:

Travlane.5948:

is this 0 in trickery? srry to ask but hate when people put 4/5 traitlines for a build. hard to read when quicklyu skimming. just a thought.

need more stealth option and stunbreak. no need for venoms as they suck here unless u r dueling then you want poison venom.

Yea its 0 in trickery. The stunbreak can be placed in the other util slot or you can also go with 1 venom like skale. I like devourer and skale because when you see someone immobilized for 12 seconds and how it causes them to panic and blow important skills its hard to give up. You also have basilisk for 2 strikes which causes them to blow skills also.

I always felt like for condition thieves you need more than just bleed basically condition overload with all the passives people run. Skale venom is a really good dps boost to condi damage thieves.

i use spider venom and 5 0 30 30 5 build so pioson and 3 init on steal works fine. just time the steal and spider venom right. plus you get blind on stealth and other condis so it works fine. eeven if they have remove condis you just apply 6 stacks right after in 1 sec :P the only way this build is no good is is somebody literally tries to make a specific build to counter it and that would make them VERY prone to dyign to everyone else

sorry what are you asking “when can we get 50% speed buff”? can you clarify? we already have that.

people use formulas alot on here but theres other factors i cant mention that go into it….try find me a formula that does 67.5k dmg backstab….just for instance. i won a bet on this bc a guy in my guild’s math was not adding up :p said it was possible. i said experience in the field dictates other wise.

crouze.3078:

Travlane.5948:

.4% dmg difference is less than 1% dmg difference and not worth mentioning unless you mean something else like 4% or idk.

It shows you that there is no big difference. I also could write “it deals about the same amount of dps”.

Travlane.5948:

drop all buffs. they are not needed as if the classes have the same base stats the dmg will be increased accordingly. %’s is what matters not total dmg.

Weapons skill damage scales different with power. They have different modifiers.
So 2 skills that deal the same damage with 916 power can have a big difference when you have a lot of power.

Travlane.5948:

Also using traits like 20% more dmg under 50% is one that each class has but in diff ways. just keep that out of it as it is a dmg modifier and isnt directly related to BASE dmg. base dmg tells you whom really does more dmg.

These modifiers is what makes a difference. If both deal the same “base damage” then the profession with more / higher modifiers deals more damage

when comparing classes you should only compare 1h weapons vs 1hnd weapons etc and so on and so forth. as its different for each class you are comparing class vs class not weapon vs weapon. so weapon choice should be slightly irrelevant. choose the highest dmg ewapon for each class then compare it. if u choose 2 classes with the same dmg weapons and same armor etc it should be the same. but i THINK u are trying to see the class differentials in dmg department. so weapon shouldnt matter

and in the same respect go use this in wvw when a zerg comes and first thing always happens is you get CCd. you will love this skill. saved my but plenty of times.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Travlane.5948:

frans.8092:

Travlane.5948:

frans.8092:

Zerbo.5381:

Travlane, you’re the first player I’ve ever heard of who not only likes this trait, but also regularly uses it in his build.

It happens, I’ve never been bugged by Last Refuge

well…challenge me to a fight on any non thief player…ull see then (only reason non thief is bc itll be a draw otherwise if 2 good players.)_

Why? You like Hard-To-Catch, I have not been bugged by Last Refuge and other people dislike both. What’s there to prove with a challenge? You like them, or you don’t.

true but he was using it in the wrong way. d/d condi evade is amazing build. just not amazing in wvw. every build/skill has better areas of use. everyone who has used my build LOVES this trait. now thakittens on 30 secs it;ll save life even more

Hum who said anything about using d/d condi evade build?

Also, I am talking about SPvP in here. Trait that up and go do some hotjoins you will come into sense about this trait. This trait adds randomness and unpredicatiblity to your OWN build, how is that a good thing? One moment you were planning out your combos and your next move and then bam, shadowstepped into the middle of an AoE / buggy terrain/stairs.

Since ArenaNet is using the SPvP as a method of balancing professions I dont see why a Grandmaster trait should be useless there.

To the guys saying this trait is good when having a ranged weapon on, if you had the trait like I suggested instead your kiting potential would be even better.

it was an ANALOGY lol. as hard to catch is useful in some places and not in others….hence why i said its like d/d evade condi build…its really really good in some places but not others. you have to pick and choose where to use it appropriately. i agree about spvp but at the same time you get telported and swifted. sounds like escape skill to me. if ur in a tight area i don think you will get the most of its benefit do u?

frans.8092:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Go to Heart of the Mists, and use Steady weapons for reliable results.

That won’t work because condition damage will have a far greater effect on the damage output. then with normal weapons

AND DMG is capped so for thieves its actually quite biased/unfair.