Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

I don’t think math is your forte if you don’t understand the significance of doing 100+ runs of CoF in 6 mins vs. doing it in 10-12 mins. Add it all up and it’s a huge chunk of time saved from grinding.

Fail math, indeed you do!. You hardly double your clear time running all Warriors. I have run CoF path 1 with a multitude of different teams. It hardly ever takes over 8 minutes. Even with a team full of rangers you can run it in around 7 minutes or less.

Also, assuming you are the smartest person in the room only makes you look a fool. I would stop with your condescending attitude and maybe focus more on your argument as it is pretty fail. All teams can easily run CoF path 1 in less than 7 or 8 minutes. It is just easier to do with 4 Warriors and a Mesmer (at least that is what people think).

1/10

Have been since everyone else learned how to dodge the Warrior animations (after the brawn nerf). Need major overhaul for Warrior profession to be viable at anything besides poking AI Mobs in PvE.

Now, I am not saying the Warrior is absolute horrible in sPvP, but every other class can do whatever the Warrior does at least 50% better and safer. You can do okay in sPvP (hot joins) with a Warrior, but in tPvP…. we still have no place and are losing are spot as top DPS in PvE pretty quickly.

The most obvious animation award is stripped from “Bull’s Charge” and is give too…… drum roll…… FINAL THRUST!

Congratulations! With this, people will dodge most Warrior attacks even more! applause all around

uberkingkong.8041:

Theres a lot of competition out there so being top 1000 on leaderboards is difficult when you have over a million people playing this game.

You are very optimistic about the number of people playing Guild Wars 2 tPvP…

uberkingkong.8041:

Its called balance. Your the beast at PvE and dungeons… But in PvP your a joke. So it balances each other out equally.

Because PvE and dungeons are so hard for all the other classes.

All of PvE is faceroll easy for anyone in any class. I am pretty sure I could leave a Guardian in the open world and he will kill mobs with retaliation on aegis removal. (joking on the Guardian part, but sadly not far off)

Zepidel.5349:

“stealth != invulnerability”

if only people would learn this there would be alot less QQ.

-Switch to weapon with ground target aoe
-Roll face
-Ded thief

Yes, because a single ground target can cover the entire battlefield to which the thief can easily teleport to.

Zoser.7245:

Again, and again, and again the same question. Have you read the tons of posts with the same question before post one more?

Mesmer is the cheapest class in this game. Ai deals most of your damage for you from range while you have short cool down teleports as well as in-vulnerabilities. Not to mention you can also stealth.

To the argument you can’t stealth much…. You can easily take torch, decoy, mass invisibility, and the trait to cloak at 25% to have a pretty decent up time of stealth. This isn’t including the benefits you gain from using stealth if you trait right. I have tried this in sPvP going with a retaliation spec. It is insanely easy to kill people with and still leave the fight with >75% health. Elementalists will kill themselves in a couple of skills just from the retaliation damage they will receive by hitting your clones/phantasms. Not to mention I have constant regeneration/protection (at least 50-75% up time)/other boons as well.

This is not a case of people claiming something is OP and it is some mediocre thing. This is not the “Beta Warrior” phase where no one knows how to dodge. The Mesmer is by far one of the easiest classes to do well with. Stand at range and use skill 4 with greatsword + 4 with offhand pistol will kill a baddie. Against a decent person, you might have to shatter a couple of times. Against a skilled person you have to pay attention somewhat to win.

The Mesmer class is a problem and is stupidly strong in the current version of the game. The majority of this Mesmer forum will down play this so you can stay on top. It is understandable I suppose. It sucks being on the bottom in terms of power. Try playing a Warrior in sPvP and you will see where skill comes in.

Daecollo.9578:

The developers said so themselves.

If the warrior needs to CC someone before they can damage them, then something is wrong with the class.

Fake/or Leaked Patch Notes
- Nerfed Damage a Ton.
- Nerfed Crowd Control a Ton.
Mind=Blown…

Seems pretty standard balancing for Anet. There is already another post (not sure if it is joking but…) basically calling the Warriors a buff bot. Which is actually, at this point, highly accurate. Who else in the game can give 180 to a certain stat for the entire team? Pretty big considering that is around 8% critical chance. The Warrior might have to give up his utilities for this but the vast majority of Warrior utilities are useless anyway. What Warrior uses stomp in a dungeon (and is serious?). Kick? Bulls Charge? Bolas? The Warrior class is a joke at this point.

I have given up on wishing/hoping for Anet to fix the Warrior class. After almost 9 months of dedicating myself to a class, I am forced to re roll because of horrible balance. I just regret sinking all of my money into my Warrior. Would have been better off throwing him 10g for gears or whatever and having a main Guardian. Which is what I plan to play now.

Since they have back flipped on the majority of their previous ideals and statements, I would wager that in a expansion you might see a open world battlefield.

Be prepared to see troll stealth Thieves camping the entrance.

The truly sad/funny part is that some people still stood in Lions Arch asking where Vorrk was when there was a very obvious star burst pattern on the map.

No it was a dungeon item from Ascalon Catacombs, but the rune is from the temple.

This is a odd “glitch” (I hope) that happens rarely. I can clearly recall this happening three times during the entire course of my play in this game.

After transmuting a Exotic armor piece twice (I like to redo my armor a lot) it seems the item becomes un-salvageable. Below is a screen shot of me trying to salvage the piece of armor with a standard salvage kit (not master, just the normal 25 use one but with 250 uses instead).

Just to note: This armor was bought on this character. Worn on this character at the start. Then transmuted and worn on this character. Then Transmuted and worn again.

Edit: I have already salvaged the rest of the set which had been through the same process. It is just this piece that is encountering this problem.

I am wondering; Is there a way to fix this so I can salvage this armor?

Seems we have a new FASTCAR in town. Be careful not to make the mistake that player did and claim the warrior is the healer in Guild Wars 2!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Best-healer-in-game-II/first

If I had to do it all over again I would have listened to my fiancee.

I would have rolled Guardian all the way (she said my character name sounded more like a Guardian). Superior stall/bunker and, if you want, decently high dps spec with free burning and blinds. The Guardian is by far the best class around if you want a melee class.

The other class that would be worth considering is a Mesmer as they are just truly ridiculous. Invulnerable states, stealth, crowd control, mobility, boons, boon removal, unparalleled support (massive teleport across a very far distance, AOE quickness, AOE condition removal, etc)…. the Mesmer is a monster in 1v1 or 1v2 situations.

However, I still would choose Guardian over Warrior or Thief if I had to start over, then if I had to choose a second…. Thief.

All dragon ball represents is how far Anet can possible get from the original statement of “Skill based” game as possible. They have continually pushed this horrible design of mob rule for almost a year now. It is the most frustrating thing in the world.

It is WvW only without doors, perma vigor builds and cheesy stealth builds.

I just looked at your traits/utility skills and ignored your armor stats. Your traits lead me to believe you want to be somewhat “tanky” more so than a “Dps machine”. I will give my opinion on this:

Trait III in the “Tactics” line is actually pretty horrible. If you ever get to 25% health you are going to die in a few seconds anyway. Meanwhile, you have two great options to replace this trait with that fits nicely into your build. Since you are using For Great Justice and Signet of Rage you could put in Trait VI for more damage per boon, or you could put in Trait I (arguably one of our best adept traits) for two extra immobilizes (one of which is ranged).

To be honest, the shout healing build is a decent build but…. it leaves you very weak for solo roaming or any type of small scrap (2v2 or 2v3). Since you will only benefit from this build going full shouts you will have 0 stability and 0 immunity to damage. I would either suggest going with full shouts and sticking to large groups (5+) or rethinking your build.

What I would suggest if you choose to redo your build:

Strength Line: 15 points (what you have now)
Arms Line: 10 points (more down below)
Defense Line: 20 points (more down below)
Tactics Line: 10 points (more down below)
Discipline line: 15 points (more down below)

The 10 points into Arms is solely for Trait IV. With this trait you can combo your Shield Bash into a for sure Eviscerate unless they stun break (this will also make the critical rate of the Eviscerate with your current stats 100% if you have fury/86% without).

The 20 points into defense line are for Trait II and Trait V. Dodged Marches is a really good skill and helps this build out since you don’t have Mobile Strikes (Trait X in Discipline). Missile Reflect just because it will really hurt a Engineer that tries to spam their pistol 3,2,1 on you, or a Ranger that is spamming his shortbow 1 after pet swapping. I have killed people just through Missile Reflect (granted they are not the brightest, but this trait works wonders, also my build is much different than this and has more options for blocking).

The 10 points into the tactics line for Trait I. Leg Specialist is just too good not to get for Warriors. It will give you a ranged immobilize (Axe 3) and another short range immobilize (Sword 3).

The 15 into the discipline line is almost exactly what you have except the trait should be switched to either Trait V or VI. I would suggest Trait VI since with fury and shield bash you will have 100% critical chance and the quicker cool down on signets mean you will have fury up more (as well as five stacks of might and swiftness).

Changing builds to this new one will change your roll quite a bit, but you will be almost as tanky (very close to the same) but a lot more damaging.

Best of luck and hope this helps.

Edit: Added Utility skills:
I would start with…
For Great Justice
Balanced Stance
Endure Pain

For Great Justice will give you around a 90% up time on your fury mixed with Signet of Rage. Balanced Stance because stability is a don’t leave home without boon. Endure Pain because Warriors don’t have many stop gaps in fights. Endure Pain could be switched out to Signet of Stamina to cover the major weakness of the build: Conditions. This also meshes well with the traits since it will have a 20% cool down reduction. You will also be recovering endurance faster with this which mixes well with the burst recover minor trait. I would suggest starting out with Endure Pain then working my way towards Signet of Stamina.

I knew the majority of decent players left this game early on, but I did not realize it was so many. Time to stop responding to the “leet players”.

It is a sad day for a MMO when players would rather keep a cheap profession ability than see the game improved into something that could be actually fun and exciting.

Keep on stealthing around uselessly…. one day you will understand the point of this thread.

Best of luck I suppose.

Azraeel.1238:

gebrechen.5643:

That whole discussion reminds on my beginnings in WoW. Same situation, only totally kittened rogues couldn’t win 1v1 or 1v2. Everyone knew how op that was, but only rogues said it’s a l2p issue. It is not, it’s a class balancing issue.
Someone should do a “world of roguecraft” video for gw2.

Only difference, in WoW, rogues used to stunlock you and you couldn’t do anything in return. In GW2 no such thing exists… You just are jealous that they can engage and disengage easier than any other class, except for mesmers of course. Which kind of is useless in sPvP, good in WvW.

When you see posts like “I laugh whenever I see a thief / I stand there while thief kills him self / I roll over thieves like no one is around.” Then you see posts like yours, obviously there is something wrong.

That shows more of class imbalances in a MMO than of player skill.

Reduktion.5791:

you have right – YOU are cheap

(thx for delete in time

It seems you have reading comprehension problems…. I usually don’t respond to these types of “posts” (if you can call it that) but this one is so bad.. I actually feel sorry for you.

It is neither witty nor on topic. It does a very poor job of insulting the one intended (it reflects back on his poor reading skills more than on me being “cheap”).

Perhaps a comment on how my topic is not correct and how the stealth in this game is fine the way it is? Or maybe a comment on how to better improve the Thief next time.

Jumper.9482:

Meaning, ofcourse, if you see a thief BP>Heartseeker and interrupt it, he will have just wasted 9/12 or 9/15 initiative. This is both assuming he has full initiative.
The former leaves the thief only with enough initiative to heartseeker. Let alone shortbow away for 6 or try the previous BP>Seeker combo again for another 9.

So let’s try asking this again.
You have the option to severely cripple a thief by interrupting/dodging/blocking their stealth.
You don’t do this because ____?

Because not all professions have the ability to do this. Some professions don’t’ have many options for ranged cc believe it or not.

Perhaps you are using your selective memory on the above situation. How is one suppose to “stun/disable” the Thief when he uses his blackpowder which not only leaves a smoke field but also blinds the current target. Sure it is only one auto attack away from getting the blind off, but by the time you wipe the blind he is already half way through his heartseeker (basically in stealth). Yes, you could dodge the initial blackpowder but the dodge animation will surely hamper your timing on the “stun/disable”.

Is it possible to stop this type of stealth from happening? Sometimes, yes. Is it possible to revel the Thief once in stealth with a profession ability? No. (which is the point of the thread).

Rastaman.9015:

Vanthian.9267:

Thief is by far the class that needs the least amount of skill to achieve.

I stopped here. You sir are incredibly wrong. Almost everyone on the forums that complains first, and then gives it a try QUICKLY eat their words. And realize just how difficult the thief profession is. If it was really as op as you say why isn’t it ranked tier 1 among the professions. I’m not mad or anything just give it a good weeks play and come back with results. I bet your prospective will change. Ill even give you a pretty good dagger/dagger build (assuming that’s the one you don’t like so much).

You should stop assuming and perhaps read the post then you might know what I am complaining about.

Even one of your own asked me how many times I have to repeat myself, and regrettable it seems I will have to forever with this group.

I never claimed the Thief is OP. Not once did I complain that the Thief is a “OP” profession. I simply stated what many people have said, the Thief has a cheap profession ability. That ability in question is stealth. It is not the Thief but how he relies on stealth for everything that is bad design. To make the matter worse, they saw fit to give no profession in this game a skill that can counter a in stealth person.

That is a rough summary, perhaps reading before assuming will help.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

I have given up on humanity’s intellect on this post. You are either a troll, or really, really, unintelligent.

Please answer this. How much initiative do you think a thief has ?

I understand you have a hard time reading now (I apologize for assuming you could read and comprehend basic English), so I will take this slow and easy for you. Baby steps and all.

A Thief has 12 initiative unless traited which boost his total pool to 15. Now… let me break it down…

A new Thief has 12 initiative. A traited Thief has 15 initiative (if he has traited into the tricky line).

You need me to go slower? Perhaps smaller words would help?

Edit: Encase you still fail to grasp what I have just wrote:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative

I also refrained from telling you this, but since you are being … who you are I guess, only a idiot Thief would try to peel with Heartseeker spams. Heartseeker spams leave you vulnerable for the duration of the leap. Where as with shortbow 5 you are teleported instantly (given the animation is what 1 second?). Meanwhile, you would choose to use Heartseeker (animation of 3/4 a second) to cover half the ground while vulnerable to attacks.

While timing: Heartseeker spam (4 times): Roughly 3.5 seconds to completion while being vulnerable to attacks.
Infiltrator’s Arrow (2 times): Roughly 2.0 seconds to completions while teleporting to target location. This skill can also be used “skillfully” to shadow step to places you would other wise have to walk around a hill to or walk up stairs/ramps.

ensoriki.5789:

So what?
The only time stealth is problematic in any sense is when it gets extended/stacked.

It is when you can so easily hop back into stealth multiple times in one fight. I have easily fought and nearly killed plenty of Thieves for more minutes than I care to say. I don’t mind they can extend stealth while in it. I don’t care if Thieves can attack form stealth. That is not the point. The point of the thread is that the Thief class is based on abusing this skill. They are forced into a cheap ability that has no counter from a profession in game. That is the problem.

A secondary problem of stealth is: The ease at which Thieves can enter stealth and the amount of time in between stealths’. Pure stealth ( GW2 stealth) is a horrible game choice. Leaving nothing to the opponents but swinging in the wind is just bad game design. Making it so a class can do this every 3 seconds (originally) or 4 seconds (now) is just dumb. Making a class rely on this type of cheap skill is even worse.

I have nothing against pure stealth as it has it place, but that place is not 2 feet in front of a opponents face in broad daylight.

They stated strategic stealth (situational stealth not spam-able) was going to be in this game and instead we have pure stealth.

randomfightfan.4091:

Addressed and ignored by you. Just because you say you don’t like a certain avenue to counter something does not make it not count as a counter. You’re right though, that wasn’t a BOOM moment. The real BOOM moment was when you refuse to use stealth counters then complain there’s no stealth counters. I also think it’s HILARIOUS that you said MY post was dead after the 1st paragraph.

And I gave you other counters to letting the thief get stealth. Way to ignore them.

Because it is not a acceptable avenue of a counter. No other profession needs a in game item sold at a vender to be countered. Every other profession can be countered with decent play (most of the time minus a few builds), except Thief. You will never kill a decent/skilled Thief 1v1 unless he is akitten or just seriously off his game that day.

You gave poor examples at best. A multitude of people can post a bunch of random situations (as I have shown in my post and pointed out in others), but in all they account for nothing. The fact remains, there is no profession that has a skill that directly counters stealth. The point of the topic yet again. Reading helps.

Lokheit.7943:

For what is worth, during early development, at guildwars2guru many guys including myself raged when they announced the decission of stealth attacks (MrBig was one of them, it has been ages since the last time I saw him arounf Thief sub-forum but I know he still posts in the PvP forums).

We knew what kind of repercussion it would have, as giving useful skills (useful enough to build around them) ONLY accessible through stealth would mean that to access ALL your available skills you would need to use stealth making it obligatory for full optimization. Also as it isn’t a Thief only thing, in my personal opinion it doesn’t make sense that the Thief get extra skills with it (would be like Warriors getting new skills when they get Fury or Might).

And many posters told us that we were exagerating and that it wouldn’t change things… so here we are today with 80+ % (and before Larcenous Strike I would say more than 90%) of competitive Thief builds being focused on accessing the stealth attack, and the Thief as the most predictable profession in the whole game because of a combination of lack of weapon sets (nearly less weapon skills in total than an Elementalist with a single weapon) and most playstyles going in this direction.

Would I like a change and more focus on diversity and survivality through evades and teleports (some builds are already incredibly good at that but I would like to see it as the way to go instead of stealth) and a more support orientated use of stealth like the Mesmer has instead of having stupid stealth attacks? Yes (though to be honest, changing the stealth with more teleports and evades wouldn’t eliminate those useless scapists we’re talking about, and with the cooldown stealths still there they might get even better at that, but at the end of the day they don’t serve for anything, but as I said thief and stealth aren’t the only excellent scapists in this game anyway).

But as I said a-net doesn’t want overhauls. The thief in its current status works this way and except for useless trolling (note: with trolls I refer only to those WvW guys that aren’t helping anyone, not the whole profession as you stated) it’s balanced (in fact it even needs help in many areas) and anyone can fight a Thief and win against him in pvp. The WvW scapist is a side effect of this playstyle that really won’t affect you at all if you don’t feed them and ignore them so really it doesn’t matter. A-Net said they don’t want overhauls so it’s kinda pointless and the Thief at the end of the day is as balanced as any other.

I agree with you on most points except for the Thief being balanced. He is under balanced, but not so much as a Warrior.

I truly wish they would scrape both and start over with them. The current versions of Warriors are …. sad to say the least, and Thieves are just cheap “trolls”. I have run across a couple of good Thieves in sPvP but nothing that blew my mind. It is either heavy stealth or the evade build.

Big Tower.5423:

You know if you add this you got to twice our damage and give us a lot more weapons and a lot more survablity……..

More ability to survive if stealth is nerfed? Of course. It would be active defense instead of a cheap stealth skill. Hopefully it would get rid of the over reliance on the stealth and make it more of a situation skill (one time use only that last for a short duration, and yes it would remove it from the Mesmer).

More damage if stealth is nerfed? Doubtful. Hopefully the new defenses that you would receive would be adequate to keep you up and allow your current damage to pull you through.

randomfightfan.4091:

Vanthian.9267:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

Exactly how much initiative do you think a thief has? Holy hell you were just in a fight with a thief and you expect them to be able to swap out and use their entire initiative bar just to blink a maximum of 1800 range (in a real world senario, they’d get maybe 1200) over the course of at least 2 seconds. You’re a warrior. You saw him blink away, use rush and you’ve just covered the majority of the distance and still have 9 more abilities to use. Whirlwind and you’re already on top of the thief and you got there fast enough that he wouldn’t have even left combat.

By the way, get your facts straight. " I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use" " Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555)." So so dumb. My head is exploding trying to comprehend the pure stupidity of this statement.

Thieves have 12 -15 initiative. Sbow 5 costs 6 initiative. Heart seeker costs 3 initiative. An average thief can get off 5-6 heart seekers IF a few ini regen traits kick in from criting and what not. How many blinks away can ANY thief get? 2. 2 slow projectile reliant blinks that will often hit the ground in front of your target or get you stuck on some uneven terrain.

I was going to compliment you on this thread as it is hilarious. Then I kept reading and your sheer stupidity on the entire thief everything gave me a headache. I remember you saying you have a thief but never play it cause it’s too easy. I guess we all now see either you don’t have a thief or you do but it’s lvl 2 and you have no idea what anything does because you never use it.

You reduce to insult because you know the thread to be true. A single mistype doesn’t make one stupid. Yes shortbow 5 takes 6, but they can easily get 2 off in a fight. Only bad thieves will start a fight with spamming abilities. A decent Thief will time them (obviously you don’t understand this from your previous post). In case you are wondering how a Thief times his abilities, I am afraid to inform you that it takes skill to accomplish this so it might not come instantly to you.

Every Thief I have ever fought that used Dagger main hand tries to end the fight on targets with less than 30% health with 2222. That is a simple statement of fact. Either you delude yourself or are what you call others.

When running the majority of Thieves will carry shortbow for skill 5. I have fought plenty of Thieves that only ever swap weapons when they start to run. Flinging direct insults for no other reason than you don’t understand at others is neither bright nor good edicate. I have only “talked back” with wit at people who try to call me “stupid”.

Yes, Thieves have 12-15 initiative. Congratulations on knowing a basic fact about the class. You are well on your way to understanding.

Don’t congratulate me on this thread as I have not done anything but take insults from players who obviously didn’t understand the topic in the first place (aside from a “few” who are intelligent enough to understand the point of the thread and actually discuss it).

Lokheit.7943:

Because stealth serves a purposse in combat. In fact most builds revolve around the use of Stealth Attacks, I would gladly get rid of them as I knew the day during early development they announced it that most builds would end up in that direction and I prefered the Thief to be more versatile and able to do multiple things in its own way rather than “needing” stealth to optimize his builds because it’s the only way to access those special attacks. In fact in early development they said stealth was meant to be situational utility rather than being needed to access all your skill set. But as the game is right now, stealth is needed for the Thief to use his builds.

In combat it has been proven time and time again that thieves can be killed stealth or not with litle trouble. Being able to run away in WvW is a side effect of being able to stealth and having good (while not really the best) mobility. But as I said and you to some degree agree, being able to do that at the end isn’t changing the game and others can ignore you.

That part is a side effect of how the Thief works in combat. If you eliminate it just to eliminate the (mostly useless) scaping ability you destroy 90% of thief’s competitive builds and you would need a whole overhaul to the profession (I have some good ideas for that if it ever happens), but a-net has stated that they don’t like overhauls so the Thief is going to be this way.

It’s just that, a side effect of thief gameplay, that at the end of the day won’t change the game much but as players still try to get troll thieves, they get frustrated and hate on the thief.

Then why not petition to change the Thieves instead of settling for this “Troll Profession” as it has been hinted at. I understand that stealth is a big part of the Thief class now, but that is the point of this thread.

You have a class that is molded and shaped by a horrible design choice for a profession ability. It is cheap and uncountable once in stealth. This gives the Thief a glaring advantage (one that when the game was in development they said wouldn’t be) in every fight. A decent Thief, in any fight, will set the pace of combat. It is neither fun nor exciting to continually play against others who have full control over a fight.

Enjoyable combat comes from flow of control. As it stands with the stealth ability in game Thieves stop this flow due to a horrible game mechanic.

It needs to be reworked to open the door for better traits and game play for the Thief class as a whole.

Edit: Before some of you completely miss understand this post.

Control of the fight is in regards to when and how it takes place. The Thief (during the course of any fight) has the option to stall, attack, or flee. The other profession does not have these choices. They are forced to go with what the Thief does. Maybe one or two professions can out run a Thief (and usually only for long distances and not for short burst).

randomfightfan.4091:

OH you want a counter to stealth and this is a wvw thread? OKAY, Anti Stealth trap. BOOM! 30 seconds revealed. Every player of every class has access to this. If you don’t want to use one of these then quit being a troll and actually listen to one of the half-dozen posts in here that were actually trying to help you out before you showed how ignorant and unwilling to adapt you are. Darwin said it the best.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change. In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment.”

This is not a l2p issue

Yes it is.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

you COULD try, oh I don’t know, NOT letting him get that far away from you in the first place. Then you could stand beside the bp so he can’t leap back into it for added stealth. He COULD walk all the way back and get 1 more hs out of it but he’ll be out of stealth in 2s and have no where to run. Use aoe and aa to find out where he is/punish him for coming in and react accordingly. You saw which way he lept first.

I hate to inform you but you have failed yet again…

I have already stated the trap and why it is no good. It is not a l2p issue.

A class should not rely on a in game item to help them in a duel. This shows that it is a unbalanced ability. Your post was pretty much dead before the first paragraph. Read the other posts when you get these “BOOM” moments, because more than likely they have been addressed.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Interrupt the heartseeker. A thief peeling from a team fight (spvp) is naturally going to spike you from far away. But it can only be 900 range with out infiltrators’. Most interrupts or blinds have 900 range.

Good awareness goes a long way.

Blinding Powder only puts a thief in stealth for 3s, if they use it far away that’s useless and would be taken out of it by the time the reach a fight.

Point in the later post being:

Engaged in fight, Thief swaps weapon to short bow. Shortbow 5, Shortbow 5—>Blinding Powder.

Your only hope to stop this would be to stun the thief after the weapon swap, even then you would be lucky to get him stunned in that place. There have been plenty of times I fought decent Thieves who can swap and shortbow 5 fast enough that my stun hits them while they travel and they still make it to their destination (Stun animation are slower than dirt on Warriors). Not many professions can cover 1800 range so quickly and with such ease unless they have every cool down up needed (such as Warrior Sword 2+Greatsword 5). I know that shortbow 5 takes 4 initiative to use, but again Thieves only really spam when they are securing a kill (obvious 2222222) or running away (555555).

I understand awareness is key in ever hoping to kill a thief, but a decent Thief will not be killed by one person.

Lokheit.7943:

Vanthian, why instead of rejecting those duels because you “know” you will scape from them you go and duel them? Because I can tell you that they’re trying to duel you to show that you won’t be able to escape even if you think you can (they know more about Thief than you do, which means they know what to do agains any Thief trick you throw at them). Duel them instead of asuming they won’t be able to kill you. Rejecting all those duels makes your argument look bad

Of course you will be able to escape if you don’t try to engage them at all (which means you will run even before trying to fight) so yeah, that way you could prove your point, but if you try to get the kill against them you will get your stealthy a** handled to you before you can try to scape (I know multiple things they will throw at you but I prefer not spoil the fun to you )

Now about the main point, I’ve said this in other thread in long posts, but I will try to make it quick:

- Thief ability to scape fights isn’t game changing at all and only serves to hurt feelings (like yours for example).

- In PvE it means nothing and in PvP it means your team will lose because you’re getting others capping points while running away.

- In most WvW content it doesn’t matter at all. The only part where it’s effective is when players try to duel each other in WvW as the Thief can scape with so much terrain. But basically that Thief trying to duel players won’t help his team much. There is a place for duels and it’s called pvp. The best use of it in WvW would be to be more effective at scouting, and that’s all. Anyone can go and kill some sentries and cows.

- If you find one of those troll thieves (because they’re not OP, they’re annoying which is different even if it looks the same because they frustrate others and hurt feelings) simply ignore him. He won’t be able to kill you if you know what you’re doing, if you don’t engage him directly blowing all your cooldowns because you want the kill, you will be able to ignore him (and WvW is about your server winning, PvP is where you test yourself against others).

- Only people that will try to kill him in a duel and end up frustrated are: a) players that still don’t know that WvW isn’t about getting more kills than anyone but about army strategy and resoures. b) players that feel the need to kill all players they see. c) players that have something to prove because they just have too much pride, so they will try and try because their pride and feelings will be hurt if he doesn’t got for him and win the fight.

Basically the Thief ability isn’t effective for anything in this game. The only use it has is hurting other prideful players feelings and that’s the reason we got so many QQ threads. Hurt feelings and pride everywhere.

Now if you think about it, in PvP you can perfectly fight a Thief, and in WvW if he’s a troll Thief there is no reason at all to engage him. Ignore him and go for something more rewarding than losing your time against a troll, you will feel better at the end

So yeah, that escaping skill at the end is for nothing. I don’t spend time roaming/trolling in WvW because I find it bring, but I’m sure those still doing it thank the six gods of Tyria everyday for feeding them with prideful players running to their blades

PS: Thieves are not the only ones with amazing scaping skills. I’ve met some others reaaaaaally good at that. But at the end all are the same: ignore them instead of losing a day trying to chase them.

1) I don’t take them up because more than likely I will engage them and it will be a decent fight, but I will escape. I hardly ever die as a Thief due to the extreme ease of running away as one.

2) Some of them might understand the class on a deeper level (notice I said some of them) but for the vast majority who are having trouble even connecting the topic of this thread I highly doubt they understand the class better.

3) If they are so useless as they stand right now as you say (and I agree to you to a extent), why not change the class and get rid of this horrible stealth ability. The Thief class could be fun and inventive if they just redo the stealth ability in this game. Would you not prefer a Thief class that actually takes skill over a cheesy “Stealth” Thief?

EoNxBoNx.9213:

How many times are you going to answer you own question in this thread?

Don’t let it happen.

I will apparently have to answer it as many times as it takes till the other people understand the point.

Not letting it happen is only possible on certain stealth skills. Most notably the CnD skill or dagger 5. Tell me how do you counter someone trying to use blinding powder from a distance? Right, there is none. What about Blackpowder+heartseeker? right there is none.

Stealth is cheap and a easy to use ability. This is why I moved on from the Thief class because it requires no skill to use or play.

Doomdesire.9365:

Now I’m completely dumbfounded. I listed the definition and you still deny anything that presents a counter point.

Even the annoying “l2p” comments are counterpoints. Stealth is cheap? “No it’s not, you just need to l2p” That’s a counter point.

Either you are a downright troll, in which case, 10/10 or you are completely ignorant and dismiss arguments that have been presented right in front of your eyes.

I know you are dumbfounded and that is okay. Your counter points you are bringing are not against stealth, they are against people going into stealth (sort of). I am asking for at least counter to the design of stealth in this game itself.

And no, the “l2p” comments are not counter arguements. There is no skill in this game that a profession has that will counter the deign of stealth in this game. There is nothing skill wise in this game a profession (by itself without the aid of a crappy in game item you have to pay for) can use to unveil a sheathed thief.

Again, there are no decent counter arguments posted at this time. I will not pat people on the back for giving posts that missed the point.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

He just explained to you…that, and how? I don’t understand, its right there in front of you. Seriously, I think this ONE guys takes up about 70% of the ignorance on the internet.

I am glad you feel you in compress that much of the internet (70% is quite a bit) but I don’t honestly believe you are that ignorant.

If you read what he wrote, none of those suggestions are counter to the actual being in stealth. They are counters for a Thief trying to go in stealth (sort of). There are no counters for Thieves in stealth. Point stands.

Doomdesire.9365:

So this is not a thread about the “cheapness” of stealth? Are you sure about that? Because it sure seems like one to me

Also

Definition of argument = “An exchange of diverging or opposite views”

Learn what an argument is before you comment about it.

I am glad you can use google. Now if you could fine the opposite view that actually stands a counter point then I would be happy to converse.

randomfightfan.4091:

This is filled with so much fail I am having a hard time deciding where to start…

Sword/dagger 3 is unblockable on the 2nd strike but doesn’t give stealth… you know, the thing you’re complaining about. If they use this skill from stealth, they aren’t using their stealth attacks and are either out of initiative or are out a utility skill. Being out that utility skill really helps to make sure a thief won’t be able to run away nearly as easily and have probably just lost their “oh shi” button. And if you are blocking, that thief won’t be able to land their stealth strike anyways.

You’re seriously coming onto the thief forum to complain about how op thieves are then a few posts down you blatantly say you don’t want to do counter-play against a thief. And you wonder why people say L2P and laugh off your post.
Geese I sure hope they remove block and confusion because they are sooo op. I don’t want to stop attacking or not blow all my skills when the other guy is blocking/I’m filled with confusion. It’s especially bs when they use skills like chaos storm or symbols.

I shouldn’t be forced into a certain fighting style to face one profession. That shows bad balanced and design. I should be able to use my skills wisely to counter as the fight goes on not rely on terrain to win. Is it nice to be able to use the terrain? Yes, but I should not be forced into using it to win.

It’s so nice when you can directly quote half of someone’s post to let them know just how terrible their logic sounds.

You also failed to read the post. I have neither said Thieves are “OP” nor that they are to strong and need to be nerfed. I also never said their sword 3 stealth them, in fact in the quote you linked it clearly states it is just a unblock able attack ( I failed to mention it also steals boons).

Also, most of you mock because you are completely missing the point. I do nothing but write you off when you try to “troll” (as you put it) with fluff of “L2P”. The issues is not a L2P issue. The issue is the decision to add stealth to the most mobile and evasion class in the game. Stealth is cheap on its own, but adding the later two in with it takes it to a new level. This is why I said, “Thieves can choose who they fight and when they fight. They can also easily run from any fight.” (not word for word, but very similar).

Edit: Just notice to later of your post….

If by logic you are talking about what you are using, then I believe we have a problem. To use logic you actually have to read and understand what the post is about before commenting, which you obviously have not done. Secondly, the point I made stands. A class should not be forced into use terrain advantages to stand a chance to win, instead a thing called “player skill” (I know this is a foreign concept to you) should determine the match.

Jumper.9482:

I guess I’ll go make a post on the mesmer forums then…
MOA FORM IS OP!
It’s uncounterable once I let it hit me the mesmer just kills me!
(Just ignore the fact that I let it hit me in the first place)

Moa form is also a very cheap skill but not what this forum is about. Also, if you looked up on the game updates and SOTG they mentioned changes to Moa Form due to the cheapness of it.

Doomdesire.9365:

So basically it’s an argument if you say it’s an argument? I guess you have no clue as to what an argument is.

No, I understand what the thread is about, while you have been swinging around at a “stealth” thread.

(that is a pun encase you missed it).

Geiir.7603:

I not agree and disagree with you, so here’s my two cents.

• Do not increase the revealed debuff, but make it so it appears every time I’m leaving stealth – even if the thief isn’t attacking.
• Make any physical attack remove stealth. (Not AoE) if this is going to happen, then they must let stealth break channeled skills.
• Make it so stealth doesn’t stack. This will fix the D/P bandwagon and make it much more challenging to play.
• Set a cool down on Shadows Embrace (10 seconds). I agree that being able to remove two conditions (if 15 deep in Shadow Arts) every 3 seconds is too strong. But any more than 10 seconds to cleanse one condition upon entering stealth is better. We are, after all, suppose to be weak against conditions, but as it is now we are not…

One more thing: We are the weakest class if jumped, therefore we have the ability to take out our enemy fast with a high burst. We’re suppose to be the sneakiest, most slippery and deceptive class. We got blinds, evades, shadow step and stealth to survive. We are suppose to chose when to enter combat. Any good thief will analyze the enemy before attacking, finding the weakest link and eliminate it

I would take these changes as they would at least add some level of depth to the play. But I still disagree with the design behind stealth. If they truly want to keep it in this game they need to make it so other professions can have the tools to revel stealth-ed opponents at least once every 5 minutes.

Dual.8953:

Wow. Haven’t seen a rant post of this caliber in a while. And completely entrenched in his perception, unwilling to explore different perspectives to boot.
I’m just gonna say you’re wrong. You don’t see thieves dominating anything but solo roaming in WvW, and even then, there’s plenty of players that can handle them, especially with survivability becoming the Meta of WvW. Thieves are considered on the low end in PvE, Dungeons, Sieges and TPvP.

That is true, they are low scale professions because they can bring little to a group other than massive stealth (and some sub par venoms’).

The point of the post is not calling the profession “OP” or amazing in anyway. I am clearly calling out the developers choice on adding a very bad stealth design to the class. It does nothing but lower the profession to a level of unskilled play that revolves around abusing this ability (which has no true counter in this game from another profession).

Reduktion.5791:

cheapest thread
play thief please or just leave this place

You have the fear of stealth nerf. I have a thief and it doesn’t change the fact stealth is cheap.

No Walking.6349:

Vanthian.9267:

Please learn the class.

You learn the class….you’re the only one qqing about them lol. All of us here are fine at killing thieves. Maybe you should go roll one

I have one (rarely play it because it is a cheap class), and I doubt the majority of people who have commented can kill a decent Thief 1v1. Anyone can boast big on forums while the point of forums is to discuss the class itself.

The point of this discuss (again) is that stealth is a bad class ability that requires 0 skill to use effectively with its affect always being the same on the battle no matter who it is used by. All other professions are at least player centric and not solely relying on the profession itself.

Doomdesire.9365:

People have, you just brush it off and ignore any evidence by insulting the people who provide some.

The only thing close to trying to discuss the opposite is the comment where they said “Put your back against the wall”. Even then, that is a 0.000001 millimeter thick argument.

If anything this helps prove the fact further that stealth is a cheap ability if you are forced to fight near towers/keeps/hills just in to combat it. Also, in reality this will do nothing to hamper the Thieves ability to stealth or do damage (it is bad advice in general).

Doomdesire.9365:

By multiple avenues of stealth outside dodgeable CnD you mean

Hide in shadows – A thief who wastes his hide in shadows without needing to heal is setting himself up for disaster
Blinding Powder – 3s stealth on a 40s cooldown
Shadow Refuge – Generally the thief’s escape tool, shadow refuge is often used when you need to GTFO out of there.

Realistically speaking, blinding powder is the only reliable stealth outside of CnD on an offhand dagger thief that reliable as “other avenues of stealth” when we’re talking about offensively landing a backstab.

Again, you are wrong. There are more stealth than what you listed and trying to sway a argument with false claims is bad practice.

Just to name a few more:
Blackpowder+Heartseeker
Smokescreen+Cluster Bomb
Steal (when traited)
Many traits…..

As stated… They have multiple avenues.

Please learn the class.

No Walking.6349:

Ranger is an OP class? Thieves are impossible to kill? My god man you really need to learn how to play this game.

You are either blind or illiterate. Rangers are currently the best duelist class in game. Not many people will argue against this fact.

Yes Thieves choose to fight or run with ease. Does this make them great? No, it makes them cheap. The point of this thread is to highlight this fact, which it does well considering no one has actually offered a decent counter argument.

Doomdesire.9365:

A) Then 1v1 and we will find out

B) Seems we have a different definition of winning then. You also don’t seem the get the design of ‘thief’. Now say it again out loud ‘thief’. What does a thief do? Attack, steal, then get away

It seems you are fine having a poorly designed class in the game. Stealth is a fail mechanic in most games. The main type of people who play these classes do it because they know they are easier to play due to stealth.

Edit: Oh, to the dodging the CnD (if you ever run into those Thieves any more)… even if you dodge it, they still have plenty of other options to stealth. This will not magically make them vulnerable by dodging one attack.

Doomdesire.9365:

Then you prevent that by dodging the CnD. It’s extremely noticeable. Also, all melee thieves are going for one target when they stealth – your back. Knowing this you can predict where the thief will attempt to move in order to land the backstab. If you are an AoE heavy class, AoEs are your feet work well. If you are a melee, your auto attack rotation is an indicator of wether you hit them or not. Guardians and Warriors also have blocks. If there is a wall you can use, place your back against the wall.

Again, I am not complaining about losing. The skill is cheap and they dont’ have to be on you to stealth. Thieves have multiple avenues of stealth (why do I need to explain this to thieves?).

Thieves also have quite a few unblock able attacks. Your newly buffed 3 on sword is a great example.

There is not always a wall and I shouldn’t be forced into a certain fighting style to face one profession. That shows bad balanced and design. I should be able to use my skills wisely to counter as the fight goes on not rely on terrain to win. Is it nice to be able to use the terrain? Yes, but I should not be forced into using it to win.

Doomdesire.9365:

A) You would not kill me

B) If you run away I still win

Winning isn’t making someone get repair bills. It’s knowing you outplayed them.

A) You assume a lot, over confidence does not equate skill.

B) False, it is a tie if you run. If no one dies, no one wins.

Jumper.9482:

Well, if you want to live in your own ignorant little world, that’s fine.
I’m just trying to help you l2p.
To think I was even nice enough to reply to a post complaining about how OP Stealth/Shadow Arts is…

Not ignorant, and it is obvious that it is unbalanced. No one wants to admit it because they don’t’ want to see it go. I didn’t say it was OP, maybe if you actually read and understand what the thread you wouldn’t feel this way. Best of luck.

No Walking.6349:

Nope, I play a ranger. And you obviously don’t know how to kill thieves otherwise you wouldn’t be here QQing about it. Also, you do know that other MMOs have it to where they can stealth all the time right…. You just need to get better.

“Nope, I currently play the most OP dueling class in this game and have no problem killing most other professions.”

Well good for you skippy. Only, I highly doubt your claim because as a Thief you can easily run from a Ranger. I out run Rangers on my Warrior/Thief/Elementalist/Guardian(sometimes)/Mesmer (due to stealth).

You need to play another class and see if it is your skill carrying or the class (<— way more likely).