Guild Wars 2

Dardamaniac.1295:

You can lower the cds with Resounding Timbre..
The problem with shouts aint the cd imo.
They dont effect the team and 2 ( sic em and gaurd ) effect only the pet untraited..

Imo this is bad design.. “Hey i shout but only my pet hear it, not even me”

Dardamaniac.1295:

I insist the cd its not the problem..

Quoted for biblical accuracy.

Because they saw fit to nerf Mirror Blade which offers counter-play instead of Confounding Strikes which doesn’t. They don’t want you to have counter-play.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Mesmer does not need anything but bug fixes and nerfs at this point. Anything that is remotely a buff is unjustified with how strong they currently are. Same goes for Elementalist.

Mesmer is so strong that not every team in a tournament since the patch has taken one nor any taken two. Sorry, but ArenaNet doesn’t balance around hot-join heroes.

i doesn’t understanded that any at all

OneKlicKill.4285:

but if your really losing because a .7 modifier bounce now doesn’t hit.. lets be real…

While you may be losing because of that (the notion belongs to you), I’m not. In fact, nowhere herein did I state anything as to me winning or losing period whatsoever.

OneKlicKill.4285:

but the single target burst damage is the same with only a loss of a possible 3 might…

This is false. Mirror Blade used to bounce 4 times, and now it bounces 3 times.

Kraljevo.2801:

Well, nobody looks like an ugly fat neckbeard that’s for sure.

Broken stereotypes are the best kind of stereotypes!

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

You still don’t seem to understand what it means based on your reply, and I’m not a native English speaker nor American either. Feel free to try again.

ArthurDent.9538:

Mirror blade damage wasn’t the problem, it was the lack of counterplay from the ease at which you could eliminate its drawback of an obvious animation and all but guarantee it landing. Now it is still stupid easy to land, but it is simply less rewarding for doing so which I feel was the wrong change to make. PU and CS+MoD were the culprits here and both were left relatively untouched which is sad.

Quoted for biblical accuracy.

Burning from Guardian and Elementalist is fine.

The only burning that is OP is none.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i only asked for some useless removed warrior traits to be made baseline.

A lot of people (myself included) can agree with this; the problem is how you angled it beginning with an attack on the Mesmer instead of simply using the Mesmer as an contrasting example as to why you believe Warrior should get said traits as baseline.

xbutcherx.3861:

This game has become a 1st person shooter. I don’t pvp anymore I don’t see the point of doing it until Anet get their head out of their kitten and balance this kitten once for all.

Engineers, Rangers, and Warriors need some love, but I’d say it’s fairly balanced otherwise.

Berserk Steve.1530:

Both are correct in a way, thank you both for replying. I did not know that unranked would give me more chance of it – and it does feel like its never/very rarely in rotation.

As far as I am aware, only Unranked has Courtyard beyond custom arenas.

Novuake.2691:

Velimere.7685:

How are you indulging me? Instead your asking me how a message directed at one thing related to another thing. I really don’t feel all that indulged I must say.

I am confused?

L2P is relevant but not relevant to the OP?

I am confused. The person you quoted was clearly responding to the discussion posts regarding Necromancer, and you replied to him as though he was responding to something else entirely. If you wanted to address the Necromancer discussion itself, it would’ve been more pertinent to address all of its participants or at the very least the original message of it.

style.6173:

My opinion: Burn is fine. Burn stacking from guards/eles are NOT fine and need nerfed.

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with your opinion.

Krysard.1364:

he says its not enough, hopefully someday conquest and deathmatch will have sperate qs

I read what he said differently:

Berserk Steve.1530:

The one map that allows this is never in the horrible map rotation selection thing.

Novuake.2691:

Velimere.7685:

Novuake.2691:

Zoso.8279:

Bubi.5237:

Necro? L2P?
DS Anyone?

JonPeters.5630:

Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind. No we arent ignoring Necro, but once people start mastering DS, I’m afraid of how strong Necro will be. Give it some time for the average player to learn these things. For example early on in LOL master yi was dominant until people learned how to counter him.

Lol nekrouw tow stronk nerph pweas. Focus 5 too HARD!

I think you are in the wrong thread mate…
L2P has no bearing here.

I disagree.

I will indulge you then.

How does L2P apply to my mentioned frustrations?
Poor MMR. Maybe a little bearing here.
Poor leaderboards
Infrequent and poor balance
Empty promises
Poor Dev presence
AFK and trolling not being discouraged via punishment system
Bugs

How are you indulging me? Instead your asking me how a message directed at one thing related to another thing. I really don’t feel all that indulged I must say.

If you queue Unranked, you have a chance to play on Courtyard.

Novuake.2691:

Zoso.8279:

Bubi.5237:

Necro? L2P?
DS Anyone?

JonPeters.5630:

Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind. No we arent ignoring Necro, but once people start mastering DS, I’m afraid of how strong Necro will be. Give it some time for the average player to learn these things. For example early on in LOL master yi was dominant until people learned how to counter him.

Lol nekrouw tow stronk nerph pweas. Focus 5 too HARD!

I think you are in the wrong thread mate…
L2P has no bearing here.

I disagree.

Yasha.5963:

Velimere.7685:

I consistently lost to Trap Ranger as a Dagger/Dagger Elementalist today while practicing 1v1; it was harsh because he would time his condition stacking against my Water Attunement. I got lucky once and beat him once, though.

Are you saying that player condi-spiked when you when into water or just after you came out of water?

It wasn’t necessarily before I swapped out of Water Attunement. Sometimes I’d have to use Evasive Arcana in Water Attunement before any of the weapon skills, and if he knew my Cleansing Wave was also on recharge, then he wouldn’t wait until after I swapped. He literally had me locked down good.

Shadelang.3012:

Velimere.7685:

Shadelang.3012:

You can have the bounce back but then it loses its unblock able status. It simply has the potential to do WAY to much damage in its original form not to share the same counters of every other projectile.

Good luck getting that “too much damage” on a single target in a team fight; a Ranger’s Rapid Fire has a better chance of doing more damage. I’d give have Confounding Suggestions only increasing Daze duration and never inflicting Stun if it meant having my old Mirror Blade back.

In all honesty I would be fine with that as well from a rangers perspective. The biggest issue was being stunned in the middle of a team fight and getting mirror bladed. due to the proximity of my pet the mirror blade is almost guaranteed to do full damage on me (unless I can get it away from me in time).

Honestly with the nerf to mantras id be curious to see whether or not the instagib combo that was possible before is still spammable. (the biggest issue is you would stun break one stun/mirror blade combo only to be hit with it again soon after)

Mantra of distraction could quite possibly have been the bigger offender when compared to mirror blade. And I actually agree with many mesmers ive talked to about it that if they had to nerf it it should just have been the mantras and then they should have waited to check.

The issue with mirror blade for me personally is that dodging it is the only possible method of avoiding it as it ignores gs 4 and axe 5. And skilled mesmers know to aim it at my pet in order to guarantee hits on me unless im lightning fast on my pet swap (Ive gotten significantly better at this but it can still be a hair trigger gimmick)

But that is more a personnel vendetta on the aspect of my playstyle than a calm decision. And I shouldn’t have made my previous post based on that alone.

I guess what im saying is. Mirror blade is terrifying from hte perspective of certain opponent types due to its nature and its useability with things like stealth and distortion to guarantee hits. HOWEVER. Possibly the biggest part of the previous mesmer “issue” was mantra of disctration/CS combo. Which has since been toned down significantly.

I wouldn’t mind seeing the old mirror blade come back. However I would ask that the devs watch it EXTREMELY closely for awhile just to be sure.

Thats from the perspective of a non memser though. Im sure you all see it differently.

That was a respectable response, and I thank you for it. The vocal consensus is that Confounding Suggestions was and remains to be the culprit for guaranteed heavy bursting. The problem is that ArenaNet’s own opinion appears to be that of leaving the guarantee of the burst in play while cutting down on the burst itself which completely and utterly goes against balanced counter-play.

As someone who actually plays Mantra Shatter Mesmer (double ranged and stealth-less), my personal opinion is that Confounding Suggestions should merely offer a 50% increase in Daze duration rather than 25% topped off with 100% chance to inflict Stun every 5 seconds. Players can at least dodge while they are dazed.

Iavra.8510:

Actually, if your pet is nearby Mirror Blade will bounce to it, effectively reducing the damage you get.

Aiming at the pet is probably the worst thing you can do.

Also, as someone who uses Mirror Blade regularly, I agree with what he or she said.

Frenk.5917:

I’m not really sure about how can you think that that is a perfectly valid and irrefutable proof that Cele Necro hardcounters D/D ele…

I’m not really sure about how you can think I think that rather than think I value it as considerable citation material regarding this discussion; Internet-based mind-reading and mind-reading in general is altogether ludicrous to me to begin with, though.

style.6173:

Exactly. In the case of ele, that experience is to know you will lose so don’t 1v1 them.

While that may be your experience, you’re no authority to say that of the rest of us.

BlackTruth.6813:

Can we please nerf blinding ashes and burning speed already? It takes absolutely no skill.

Blinding Ashes is weak for a Grandmaster Trait by its application of single-target blind with a global recharge, and was considered for buffing by both ArenaNet as well as the community. Also, other classes have better evades that are easier to use as evades as well. Perhaps you meant Ring of Fire? Even then, you have to actually touch the ring to get burned.

Ithilwen.1529:

I take back what I’ve said previously. D/d ele’s are way OP and need a major nerf.

That’s your opinion, and I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with it.

Pimsley.3681:

Pre-patch I had a ranger specifically for countering eles if we were going against 2 of them.

It wasn’t a popular build but it did well against eles and rejecting shoutbow warriors banner. 2/0/6/6/0.

Condi rangers have not benefited from burn damage as much as eles and guards have. The spec I ran pre patch got watered down badly.

Ignoring team composition or any kind of team play whatsoever, I’m sure a similar ranger build can be made post patch that could counter ele 1v1.

Wolfric.9380:

I also have problems with some rangers. Pre patch i hunted them and they could only disengage cloaked or die. Now i encounter condi rangers that kill me. So i have to be very careful ready to disengage.

I consistently lost to Trap Ranger as a Dagger/Dagger Elementalist today while practicing 1v1; it was harsh because he would time his condition stacking against my Water Attunement. I got lucky once and beat him once, though.

That said, I don’t think it makes for a good hard counter given that an Elementalist more experienced with the match-up could save his Cantrips (or specifically just Lightning Flash) to get out of the Traps and Bonfire after getting hit with Entangle or Muddy Terrain.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Mefiq.7039:

burning isnt op, builds that stack burning with insane rate force enemy team to go atleast 1 bunker guard.

Guild Wars 2 as long as you play your build well you will get rewarded, BUT your build must be meta, if enemy have burnstacker in team u need to switch to bunkerguard sorry.
Its like dumbfire on necros that forced warriors to go shield with reflect cuz it was so dumbly powerful.

Every meta build other than PU Shatter Mesmer has enough cleansing to deal with burning. I consistently beat a Burn Guardian while playing D/P Thief practicing 1v1, and I simply cleansed appropriately.

Wolfric.9380:

I did not understand why ring of fire got 3 stacks. Make it 1 like flamewall. And reduce dragon breath to 3 or even 2 stacks and its fine.

The point is it’s actual worthy punishment consistent with area-denial; if anything, Flamewall needs to be buffed. Also, Drake’s Breath inflicts a single stack for 3 seconds per tick. It is relatively weak and doges are generally not wasted on it; that said, I’d still increase it’s recharge to 8 seconds if it appeases the tinfoil hats.

Shadelang.3012:

You can have the bounce back but then it loses its unblock able status. It simply has the potential to do WAY to much damage in its original form not to share the same counters of every other projectile.

Good luck getting that “too much damage” on a single target in a team fight; a Ranger’s Rapid Fire has a better chance of doing more damage. I’d give have Confounding Suggestions only increasing Daze duration and never inflicting Stun if it meant having my old Mirror Blade back.

Poliator.7021:

And that doesn’t deny my point that the current Celestial Elementalist (Fire) build is one of the classes that uses burn the most efficiently, giving an output of burns at a higher pace than you can cleanse/invuln/evade/block.

Sorry, but no. Ring of Fire is on, what, a 10-second recharge when traited? You gain endurance at 5% per second requiring 50% per dodge. How many seconds is that per dodge again? Not to mention the fact that Ring of Fire isn’t being used instantly after recharge in every or even most rotations. What’s more, every meta build uses at least one Superior Sigil of Energy, and all of them save for GS/Hammer Warrior (who can cleanse 5 conditions every 10 seconds) have access to Vigor.

Poliator.7021:

Also, the example of the Ring of Fire was it’s buggyness. You don’t actually touch it, yet the physics of the game says “OH, he went in and out! MUST BURN ermahgehd.” And there you go, 6 stacks of burn you shouldn’t have gotten. I shouldn’t be forced to use anything defensive for something that shouldn’t affect me.

That sounds very different than what you stated before:

Poliator.7021:

You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you;

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

lighter.2708:

i think the problem is mesmer here

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.

Poliator.7021:

The only class I have a problem with burns is Elementalist, because Ring of Fire range/borders are a little bit… buggy? You step the border but never actually enter/leave it, yet there you have, 6 stacks of burning, all for you;

How about that? If you don’t touch fire, you don’t get burned by fire!

Blocks, evades, and invulns are also a thing too.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

To add to this terror..
Here is a history of mesmer that everyone seems to forget.

Fay.2357:

Mesmers started dropping out of the meta at the same time warrior was buffed. Recall that this was when they nerfed mainhand sword into the ground, making effective play much harder. It came back a little with double ranged shatter builds, but by the time those got much use, the condition meta hit and dunked mesmer out of the meta hard.

After the condition meta started getting toned down was when s/d thief skyrocketed in popularity, and forced mesmers to remain out of the meta for this period. Shortly thereafter, the celestial meta hit, and mesmers have remained out of the meta for the remainder of it.

At all points, a couple people still played mesmer. This, however, is anything but evidence of mesmer’s meta status. Even the very best mesmers in the game spent record time in downstate, and were ultimately only on the teams because of portal, and because their personal skill allowed them to bludgeon a non-viable class into use.

Lastly, as my original point that I made was about, that was foolishly disputed, at every single point in the history of play, the meta focused towards builds that were low effort, low risk, and high reward.

Again, being not in the meta comps doesnt mean it wasnt viable. It WAS always viable.
There’s a difference between optimal and viable

Power ranger was viable but not optimal

Saying mesmer sucked very hard as a burst class is simply wrong because it was back then one of the best duelists of all classes.

But as I said myself, the effort into going for optimal was a waste of time because ele and shout warrs were a better option. (low risk = high reward).

But pls, never say mesmer wasnt viable, it was just not optimal

“Not viable” means its not even good for average SoloQ plays, like Spirit Guardian.

In his defense and in consideration of your circumstantial definition as opposed to what others define as “viable” in the meta, he himself never actually stated that Mesmer isn’t viable. However, he did quote one of the top Mesmers in the game as stating such.

Hammerguard.9834:

condition classes should be able to do damage to structures such as the gates. I feel like condi damage and direct damage should be completely interchangeable and useful in all aspects of the game and it’s stupid how direct damage just outclasses condi damage in many aspects of the game.

This is the reason why I never play a condition build; I support this notion.

posthumecaver.6473:

Burning is OP because for 3 years there was no DOT in the game can hit 2.5K in tack and it should not be in future.

Why shouldn’t it be? In actual organized team-play which this game is balanced around, there’s a lot of cleansing. Every meta build brings ample amounts of cleansing save for one (PU Shatter Mesmer). Burning seems to only be a problem for hot-join heroes who are not taken into account when balancing this game.

choovanski.5462:

yeah, you’re the student-teacher nice to meetcha.

Still proceeded with the poor-taste and completely off-topic jabs? Oh well.

choovanski.5462:

nice to see you recommending bunk guard like everyone else in the thread.

Yeah… Only the first guy to suggest it didn’t hop on the bandwagon there, right?

I wonder who that was…

choovanski.5462:

instant cast could be a boon, but if it’s network lag it’s debatable how much difference it would make. ive had 1000 ping (and much higher, 3k is pretty insane) and people will just stand still on your screen, often you cant even use skills or they activate a long time after you press them. bunk guard is a solid suggestion, but the 12- sorry 13k health pool could be an issue if your characters reactions are significantly delayed, as 13k is very little for a mesmer to burn through.

Given your very own pitched scenario, a Mesmer could quite as easily burn through even more health given “a long time” while “you can’t even use skills” as per your words.

Most “faceroll”? D/P Thief… Hardest to play? Celestial D/D Elementalist.

Burning damage and application are both fine; this is an L2P issue.

choovanski.5462:

Velimere.7685:

choovanski.5462:

with lag you wont be able to time blocks or aegis, so that 12k hp wont go far. maybe try bunk guard with sentinels amulet?

You lost me at “12k hp”… Do you have experience playing this build or Celestial Shoutbow Warrior? See, both builds use the same rune which primarily adds Vitality.

ok. i got it wrong, it’s 13k. give yourself a gold star and a pat on the back.

in regard to your questions, i only play medi on my guardian, and despite playing shoutbow i never memorised how much health soldier runes give. weird i know.

What is this, primary school? Am I supposed to be both the teacher and student in this fantasy of yours? Why would I give myself a gold star and pat myself on the back? Such a notion is simply and utterly nonsensical.

That nonsense aside, Shouts are also instant-cast save for the Elite which has a cast of 1/4th of a second (the next fastest cast-time in the game). One would think such quick cast times would be rather useful to someone experiencing such delays as noted herein by the OP.

serenke.4806:

kdaddy.5431:

burning isnt op, people would just rather not run builds that have condi removal. Everyone in this forum wants to run a pure zerker build then cry’s dmg is too high.

I do wish they would slightly lower burn dmg and slightly raise bleed. By tiny amounts

In its current state it is OP because unless you build specifically for it, you won’t be able to remove it in any viable way. Let’s say you have 3 ways to cleanse (which is already a lot more than some have), do you cleanse 1 stack and waste the cleanse? Do you wait until you have 5 stacks and cleanse? You’d have lost a lot of health by then and lo and behold the next 2-3 stacks are already on you.

Some classes just have burning too readily available to have effective counterplay.

PU Shatter Mesmer has the least amount of cleansing in the current meta (read: zero), and it deals with Celestial D/D Elementalist just fine. Every other build in the current meta has a plethora of cleansing available to it. For example, the next two weakest cleansers are D/P Thief and GS/Hammer Warrior, and those cleanse just fine versus Celestial D/D Elementalist, and they also disengage just fine as well.

That said, a lot of non-competitive non-meta builds can definitely have issues with cleansing.

choovanski.5462:

with lag you wont be able to time blocks or aegis, so that 12k hp wont go far. maybe try bunk guard with sentinels amulet?

You lost me at “12k hp”… Do you have experience playing this build or Celestial Shoutbow Warrior? See, both builds use the same rune which primarily adds Vitality.

Cleric Bunker Guardian I guess would be the most forgiving.

I have this dagger! it’s nice.

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

They haven’t been meta because the gain that you got from playing a mesmer was not as beneficial as the gain you got from playing something else.
Like thief.

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Very true indeed. It’s why mesmer wasn’t meta for a long time.

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

There is a big difference when you need another player to make your class viable.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

No, it wasn’t worht going mesmer because the reward for the effort AND what it brought to the table was either not up to par OR completely overshadowed by other classes.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

Fact: Helseth has said many times that “He was viable” full quote being “Mesmer’s aren’t viable, I am”.

Helseth is also the person that said that mesmer was more of a liability to his team, and that a thief would do the job of mesmer better.

He played a few games with a D/P thief on his stream and stated that if he were to learn D/P he would be more of a beneficial slot to his team.

So no, that theory of yours has been proven false, many times over.

Quoted for biblical accuracy.

Saiyan.1704:

meow one twenty.4376:

Coulter.2315:

I don’t think anyone can count this as evidence to show “Burning isn’t OP.”

Easily this.

Do they not teach the scientific method in school anymore?

Because other “burns are op” threads are more genuine?

They definitely aren’t.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

giving non mesmers professions some removed traits as baseline would not break the game.

you guys are overeating.

mesmer is balanced, the other professions are not.

it is that hard to accept this?

Phantom Master.9582:

The main focus right now should be bringing D/D ele back in line with the rest, while giving a bit of buffs to rangers, engineers and necros.

(Probably a bit of love to warriors too… probably.)

i don’t play ele so i dunno how to comment on them.

i dunno how to nerf ele either so i won’t comment on them.

yes, warriors need some love, that, i will start another topic for that.

and no, this topic is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers.
mesmers are fine now.

warrior needs some love.
(yes, this is my intention)

Is it just me or did this guy’s tune completely change since his last reply?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

ya all can “defend” mesmer all you want, but the fact still remains that mesmer has the most traits made baseline compared against other professions, and mesmers are a bit more powerful at the moment when played right.

other professions need to have a bit more traits made baseline in order to make things more fair.

and seriously, mesmers were not useless at all before the patch, mesmers were viable even before the massive buffs they received.

now, mesmers are at the top of the food chain.
it is only fair for other professions at the bottom to receive some slice of the cake as well.

See the following:

Velimere.7685:

You never see every team in a tournament take one, and you never see any team in a tournament take two.

I agree that Fast Hands should be made baseline, but Mesmer is balanced and fine. You never see every team in a tournament take one, and you never see any team in a tournament take two.

Gizmorage.6412:

I don’t actually have an argument.

I’m glad we agree.

Mesmer is balanced.

Mesmer is fine.