I never congratulate anyone because the RNG like them anyways. Other than for trolling, the only problem this could cause is lying on dungeons when asked to ping gear.
Adding in a way of telling if someone actually has something is too close to gear checking/inspecting, which GW2 does not need in any capacity. Elitists can go home >.>
The anti-elitist started so early. I better control myself before I bite this bait.
Things like the down state and aoe caps are mechanisms to cap the effectiveness of player skill. Most people would not want to play a game where a highly skilled 10 man could wipe a zerg of 60. Games that let experienced, skilled players completely dominate never have huge populations. You have to give the lower skilled players a way to make up for their lack of skill/experience, a way they can still ‘win’.
There are serious wvw pvp guilds that run 10-20 man groups that wipe 40-50 man zergs more often than not. While they don’t have the numbers to control the PPT, they most definitely control the PvP.
Most of OP’s points could be moved more specifically to “warriors” instead of heavy armor. Warriors have tons of flat mitigation, healing, mobility, and the highest tier healthpool. Guardians have the lowest tier health pool, low mobility (not even a signet for movement speed, just gs leap, staff 3, and a shout with a considerable cd), yet they die if they don’t preemptively have their consecrations down or their shouts up.
I disagree, and I’d like to be proven wrong. If the ONLY variable (no uplevels, similar buffs, all decent builds/gears) between the 10-20 vs 40-50 zerg is skill, then I’m willing to bet that the 40-50 zerg will win 100% of the time.
everything you said doesn’t explain why everyone is kicked when the instance opener exits the instance. Let’s talk about dungeons or fractals.
Well, if you didn’t get kicked out, people would ask others to spend a minute to open the Dungeon or Fractal Level for them and then just leave the group so that the others could find a replacement, while not worrying about having the requirements of doing the Explorable Dungeon-path or the Fractal Level in the first place.
You get kicked to preserve the integrity of the design philosophy that your group actually have to earn the rights to play at a certain Fractal Level or in an Explorable mode.
This. Plus, it’s the only protection from guild groups kicking you at the end of dungeons in order to bring in guildies (or sell).
Agree. Also given that there’s no party leadership in game, instance ownership is my only protection from brainless pugs. If I put up a requirement for my party, and someone joined that doesn’t fit that req, I leave. That’s what you get for wasting my time. :P
I personally think WvW should be out of world completion. At the same time legendaries should also be out of WvW. Keep the shinies PVE only.
WvW is possibly the place where people notice your Legendary weapon the most (as long as you’re not always in a zerg) — your foes want to know what skills you’ll be using on them.
Considering the fact that wvw is where legendaries shine the most, the amount of grind required in WvW is disproportionately less compared to PvE. Legendaries should require 3-4x more badges, kills, ranks, and objective captures. To compensate reduce the mats, etc for legendaries.
First, I recommend taking a “blank slate” approach with GW2 as it’s different from WoW (no trinity). Understand that all classes are both melee and range. The current best DPS on range is elementalist. I’d say pick a class that quite good depending on what you wanna do end game: dungeon, open world, wvw, etc.
I personally rotate between warrior, guard, mesmer, and ele. Ele is probably the most fun, but I have to be awake playing with 11-12k hp. Warrior is easiest class to play. Mesmer dps is situational. Guard when you need reflect, perma protection with pretty good dps too.
If ANet had stuck with their plan to make dungeons hard enough to actually require the teamwork that speed runners use, there would be a lot less of these “no roles” posts. However, there would likely be a lot more dungeons are too hard posts.
True, I also find it ironic. If they made the dungeons harder, require more teamwork and varied builds, the elite dungeon community would just go about their usual business of speed running. But then we’ll get an influx of “too hard” threads from the casual runners.
The way I see it there are two ways in making an item rare or hard to obtain. It’s either grind or RNG. For example, legendary falls under the grind route. BL weapons falls under the RNG route.
I don’t think grind is limited to repeating unenjoyable content. You can be doing a list of different tasks and still be considered grind.
Not signed. I’m a big fun of having a party leader, and owning the instance is the only control party leader has (assuming party leader = instance owner) on his party.
I don’t think this concern is even on Anet’s radar. It should be. They should close the gap on highest base hp classes with lowest base hp classes, at the very least in PVE.
Fiery rush is already OP. Anyways I also like a buff on some like the physical utilities on warrior. They’ll probably need to completely change the way some utilities work though.
I love it when people say this because it’s so easy to shoot down. See you are incorrect, correlation does imply causation – at least it does until you are able to arrive at a theory which is less false. In the end, it’s a good place to begin, unlike the trite and rather shallow argument you bring to the table. On the surface saying “correlation does not imply causation” does sound rather fancy, so I understand why you would say such a thing.
So, how does correlation imply causation? I took stats 4yrs ago and I remember my teacher telling it does not.
There is nothing currently in the game stopping you from getting a group together of all casual laid back people and having all the fun you want. Your method of playing isn’t restricted. However if I want efficient skilled players I have no method of finding them.
There is nothing currently in the game stopping you from getting a group together of all skill-and-efficiency people and having the efficient dungeon run you want either. You might have to do a little math, pay attention, use trial and error and your friend’s list to identify players who can complete a dungeon in a time frame you find acceptable. Don’t try to paint it that you’re completely at a loss on how to find like-minded players because the game doesn’t have a feature to make that easier for you. The lack of a meter has certainly not stopped speed-running guilds, and groups, from forming and being successful — so your claim seems over-the-top.
We all just wanna have an easier time finding the people we wanna run with. If you ever find a method for casual to more easily find the people they wanna run with, then please implement that as well. The lack of meter makes it harder to pug elite runs, surely it didn’t stop it.
Guild runs and friend runs are good and all, but as I mentioned it’s quite difficult to find people that run dungeons on your schedule. They may have done the path already or they don’t have enough time, etc.
I understand the desire for convenience. I’d love to see a radial button on the LFG that forced the choice of an “efficiency run” or a “laissez-faire (anything goes) run.” It wouldn’t solve the problem of people who want to buck the system, but it would certainly separate by inclination. However, it’s in ANet’s interests not to segregate the player-base. They want everyone to have an easy time getting a dungeon group, and any feature that looks like it would divide the player-base is unlikely to be implemented. Sadly, for your purposes, that probably means no meter.
In GW2, segregation is quite inevitable. In a game where improvement equals skills, there is always room to get better. Players would group themselves according to who they wanna play with, namely players with similar play style and skill. There are those that spend their time to get better and wanna get rewarded in terms of a faster run. It’s like in any other sport like basketball. A good player wanna be in a good team to play against another good team.
I think segregation is less of an issue here, it has more something to do with what GW2 is all about. It’s a casual, very casual, game and Anet wouldn’t implement anything that would demote the casual aspect of the game.
There is nothing currently in the game stopping you from getting a group together of all casual laid back people and having all the fun you want. Your method of playing isn’t restricted. However if I want efficient skilled players I have no method of finding them.
There is nothing currently in the game stopping you from getting a group together of all skill-and-efficiency people and having the efficient dungeon run you want either. You might have to do a little math, pay attention, use trial and error and your friend’s list to identify players who can complete a dungeon in a time frame you find acceptable. Don’t try to paint it that you’re completely at a loss on how to find like-minded players because the game doesn’t have a feature to make that easier for you. The lack of a meter has certainly not stopped speed-running guilds, and groups, from forming and being successful — so your claim seems over-the-top.
We all just wanna have an easier time finding the people we wanna run with. If you ever find a method for casual to more easily find the people they wanna run with, then please implement that as well. The lack of meter makes it harder to pug elite runs, surely it didn’t stop it.
Guild runs and friend runs are good and all, but as I mentioned it’s quite difficult to find people that run dungeons on your schedule. They may have done the path already or they don’t have enough time, etc.
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
They don’t want to, since by definition they are elitists and they think they are better than others, and WANT to be segregated and play with the so-called “elite.” Thus they should play with like-minded players rather than complain about lacking a DPS meter “tool” which would inevitably multiply the real attitude tools, such as seen here and many other threads.
In short, the elitist doesn’t want to PUG because he thinks he’s better than the “average” PUG-therefore, he/she shouldn’t complain and just play with so-called superior players to have “fun”, rather than complain forever about PUGs or lack of DPS meters. He/she is still free to play the way he/she wants, but he/she has chosen that he/she doesn’t want to play with PUGs, due to ill-placed feelings of superiority.
(Note that not all speedrunners are jerks, BTW, nor have I ever claimed as much; but the bad attitude of a few of them is a cancer that can make other players-which they would dare call “bad” without knowing them because they are not part of their “elite” strata-even stop playing the game, especially given the seal of approval of an official ANet given DPS meter. It would confirm that ANet agrees that DPS is the one way to play GW2, which they have never ever stated, as popular as that opinion is with some that claim that GW2 is “DPS-only” role by virtue of not employing a trinity combat system.)
In a perfect world, 4 members would be waiting for me in LA so we can run a dungeon right after I log in. But it’s not that case, everyone needs to Pug at some point, not just want. The tool would help the elite find like-minded people.
the best tool to find like minded people would just be using the LFG properly.
I’ve never thought of DPS meters as a tool to alienate people, but rather a tool to improve your own skill by getting feedback on your performance. You could argue it’s a good way to filter the people you want to play with, but i can assure that argument wont sit well on these boards. People here hate elitism the same way americans hate terrorism.
If LFG post is all it takes, then by all means. If you’ve been using the LFG tool for some time now you know that players don’t read, they refuse to read your post or blatantly ignore it. I think this board is scared of elitism even if its barely going to affect them, at least not directly.
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
They don’t want to, since by definition they are elitists and they think they are better than others, and WANT to be segregated and play with the so-called “elite.” Thus they should play with like-minded players rather than complain about lacking a DPS meter “tool” which would inevitably multiply the real attitude tools, such as seen here and many other threads.
In short, the elitist doesn’t want to PUG because he thinks he’s better than the “average” PUG-therefore, he/she shouldn’t complain and just play with so-called superior players to have “fun”, rather than complain forever about PUGs or lack of DPS meters. He/she is still free to play the way he/she wants, but he/she has chosen that he/she doesn’t want to play with PUGs, due to ill-placed feelings of superiority.
(Note that not all speedrunners are jerks, BTW, nor have I ever claimed as much; but the bad attitude of a few of them is a cancer that can make other players-which they would dare call “bad” without knowing them because they are not part of their “elite” strata-even stop playing the game, especially given the seal of approval of an official ANet given DPS meter. It would confirm that ANet agrees that DPS is the one way to play GW2, which they have never ever stated, as popular as that opinion is with some that claim that GW2 is “DPS-only” role by virtue of not employing a trinity combat system.)
In a perfect world, 4 members would be waiting for me in LA so we can run a dungeon right after I log in. But it’s not that case, everyone needs to Pug at some point, not just want. The tool would help the elite find like-minded people.
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
Are you really arguing that number crunchers should own pugging? I have no problem with anyone excluding whoever they want, but why should the game implement a feature making it convenient for you to exclude them when there is no feature making it convenient for them to exclude you? The “casual” needs to determine who they’re willing to play with by trail and error, why shouldn’t the “elitist?”
Never did I say anyone should own pugging. Everyone should be able to, both casual and elite. Elitist doesn’t wanna play with casuals because it slows them down(thru lack of skill/dps, whatever), and impedes them from achieving their goal which is a fast run.
I don’t know what you meant when you say casuals need to determine who they play with since most casuals are willing to run with anybody regardless of skill and experience. Maybe you’re confusing yourself with elitist and jerk a@@holes. The two can be a separate thing.
Edit: I’ve never seen a casual pug deny a skilled player who brings good dps.
If a given player or group is willing to play with anyone, then the point would not apply to them, is it not so?
For what it’s worth, I have no problem with someone leaving a group that isn’t working out for them, perhaps with a brief, “Sorry, got to go.” I’ve done it myself. I do have a problem with people flaming and insulting others over their perceived sub-standard performance. I don’t want to see that crap even if I’m not the target. In other words, where’s the in-game jerk detector?
Yes, the meter would mean nothing to those willing to play with anyone.
I think we are all in agreement that flamers and jerks should be banned from the game. With that said there are really nice elite players (the real ones). They are usually the ones who teach me tips and tricks.
This list should have only your name and others hided with xxxxxx and stats, if they dont wanna show, maybe a ‘privacy’ option ask u if u wanna hide or not your name in those stats so everyone is happy
This is exactly what I proposed in my earlier post. I think it’s a good balance between the two sides.
^^ Yes, hell yeah. I would personally leave the party, and in fact I would not have joined the party in the first place (assuming they stated in their lfg post what they’re looking for). If the party ask to melee lupi and be a zerker and I can’t do such thing, I would not join them. If I legitimately fell short of their expectations, and they kick me, that’s fine with me as well. All of it has to be stated at the beginning of the run ofc.
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
Are you really arguing that number crunchers should own pugging? I have no problem with anyone excluding whoever they want, but why should the game implement a feature making it convenient for you to exclude them when there is no feature making it convenient for them to exclude you? The “casual” needs to determine who they’re willing to play with by trail and error, why shouldn’t the “elitist?”
Never did I say anyone should own pugging. Everyone should be able to, both casual and elite. Elitist doesn’t wanna play with casuals because it slows them down(thru lack of skill/dps, whatever), and impedes them from achieving their goal which is a fast run.
I don’t know what you meant when you say casuals need to determine who they play with since most casuals are willing to run with anybody regardless of skill and experience. Maybe you’re confusing yourself with elitist and jerk a@@holes. The two can be a separate thing.
Edit: I’ve never seen a casual pug deny a skilled player who brings good dps.
Just because they have the mindset doesn’t mean they can produce the numbers. I Don’t care about mindsets, how knowledgeable someone is or claims to be, or how good they think they are – numbers is all that matters. What’s the point of playing with people of “that mindset” if I can’t see the proof?
I wanna see a numerical breakdown so leechers and underperformers can be kicked. Those folks can go do bad DPS soloing hearts or something, not slowing down groups.
Fortunately ANet will never do this.
Hopefully they also adjust their game so that DPS isn’t the best way to play PvE.
I agree, they should make such an adjustment. DPS is only fun for short amounts of time before it gets boring as watching paint dry. We should also have meters that shows other stats like condition removal and the amount of CC going out.
Maybe you should be the one to play alone. That way you don’t have to worry your pretty little head about someone in your group slowing you down.
Even if I was playing alone I would want a meter. Unlike lower quality players, I like to know I am at peak performance, or when someone else is as well. That way I can associate with people I know to be good players, and not “skrubz.”
Barring that, by and large, MMOs are about defeating content as a group. If someone doe not care enough about their performance to the point that it holds up the group, they deserve to be kicked and relaced by a good player. If they can’t put up worthy numbers in a group setting (a setting that is a cornerstone of MMOs), then I suggest a different sort of game. MMOs are, by nature, competitive. Then again, Anet protects the ego of bad players even by hiding their name in PvP, so like Shockwave, Anet will never do it. It’s unfortunate that some lousy performing players are allowed to hide amongst and reap the benefits that should be reserved for skilled players. Kinda like real life, really.
Players not absolutely confident in their ability make up the bulk of people who are against meters. I would bet money.
I don’t want a DPS meter, cause I don’t need a DPS meter. I know that I am playing a peak performance. I can see the numbers fly up every time I hit. It’s not hard to do the math. I could not care less if there are 1 or 2 people lacking in DPS as long as they don’t spend their time in a downed state and keep having to rez them. I don’t care if I end up carrying them through the dungeon (it’s not like they are hard) even if it takes a few extra minutes.
The whole “play this way or you are a bad player and we kick!” is what is wrong with MMOs and I will not support anything tools that would give more power to these people. If you don’t want to play with scrubs then join a guild, organize group with L33T people like you and don’t play with pugs.
Don’t worry you don’t have to worry about me joining your party cause I have already put you on my block list.
It’s easy to think your at peak performance when you’re comparing non other than to yourself. You should also present your math, just out of curiosity. The difference in good and bad run is more than just “extra minute.” A pug Arah p2 would take 1hr while a speedrun would take 30min (averages).
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
Seriously? You need to compare yourself in order to be sure you are performing well. Doesn’t sound like you are very confident in your abilities. As for the math part, it’s not hard to figure out the DPS potential of your build once you know your build. The basic formula I use is (Accumulated damage per rotation)/(seconds to complete rotation+seconds lost to evade or heal)=DPS. If you play flawlessly (and I am sure you do) then that is the average DPS you will achieve.
You misunderstood. I’m saying it’s easy to think you’re doing good when you’re really not, and thus the need for a meter to properly evaluate.
A number on a spreadsheet can only get you so far, and a potential is just that a potential. As you are probably aware, you don’t usually reach your potential due to variations in skill and circumstances. Just look at mesmer, it has the highest potential DPS but rarely achieve those in the field because it’s hard to keep 3 phantasms up.
Just because they have the mindset doesn’t mean they can produce the numbers. I Don’t care about mindsets, how knowledgeable someone is or claims to be, or how good they think they are – numbers is all that matters. What’s the point of playing with people of “that mindset” if I can’t see the proof?
I wanna see a numerical breakdown so leechers and underperformers can be kicked. Those folks can go do bad DPS soloing hearts or something, not slowing down groups.
Fortunately ANet will never do this.
Hopefully they also adjust their game so that DPS isn’t the best way to play PvE.
I agree, they should make such an adjustment. DPS is only fun for short amounts of time before it gets boring as watching paint dry. We should also have meters that shows other stats like condition removal and the amount of CC going out.
Maybe you should be the one to play alone. That way you don’t have to worry your pretty little head about someone in your group slowing you down.
Even if I was playing alone I would want a meter. Unlike lower quality players, I like to know I am at peak performance, or when someone else is as well. That way I can associate with people I know to be good players, and not “skrubz.”
Barring that, by and large, MMOs are about defeating content as a group. If someone doe not care enough about their performance to the point that it holds up the group, they deserve to be kicked and relaced by a good player. If they can’t put up worthy numbers in a group setting (a setting that is a cornerstone of MMOs), then I suggest a different sort of game. MMOs are, by nature, competitive. Then again, Anet protects the ego of bad players even by hiding their name in PvP, so like Shockwave, Anet will never do it. It’s unfortunate that some lousy performing players are allowed to hide amongst and reap the benefits that should be reserved for skilled players. Kinda like real life, really.
Players not absolutely confident in their ability make up the bulk of people who are against meters. I would bet money.
I don’t want a DPS meter, cause I don’t need a DPS meter. I know that I am playing a peak performance. I can see the numbers fly up every time I hit. It’s not hard to do the math. I could not care less if there are 1 or 2 people lacking in DPS as long as they don’t spend their time in a downed state and keep having to rez them. I don’t care if I end up carrying them through the dungeon (it’s not like they are hard) even if it takes a few extra minutes.
The whole “play this way or you are a bad player and we kick!” is what is wrong with MMOs and I will not support anything tools that would give more power to these people. If you don’t want to play with scrubs then join a guild, organize group with L33T people like you and don’t play with pugs.
Don’t worry you don’t have to worry about me joining your party cause I have already put you on my block list.
It’s easy to think your at peak performance when you’re comparing non other than to yourself. You should also present your math, just out of curiosity. The difference in good and bad run is more than just “extra minute.” A pug Arah p2 would take 1hr while a speedrun would take 30min (averages).
The whole “play how you want” doesn’t just apply to you. It applies to elitist as well. If the casual (lack of better word) can play with pugs, why can’t the elitist play with whoever they chose to? Double standards.
I’m not quite sure what a DPS meter would achieve. DPS meters are there in other games as a tool to see if the DDs are actually doing their job, since in GW2 there isn’t the trinity and every class contributes differently to a fight, that tool would just tell you nothing of significance.
It would in fact probably encourage more elitism and promote things like not resing players or doing any support (ie, Guardians won#t switch to staff and use Empower because they’ll lose DPS).
Everyone is a DDs, healers, and CCs is this game. A (dps, support, etc) meter would tell us how each class is contributing to the party.
Elitism is already present in the game, and it is not impeding anyone on how they want to play.
Maybe we have to consider raising the benchmark from simply pass/failure to good/bad run.
I think there should be an option where if you turn it on, others can see your DPS numbers. For those that doesn’t want others seeing their DPS can just leave it off.
I’m not opposed to DPS meters, I’m opposed to them wasting development time creating one since the content doesn’t warrant it.
If they make harder content at some point where the benchmarks must be hit or else the party fails then you can expect to see my support for the DPS meter. Until then though, I’d rather have more/better content over unnecessary utilities.
I honestly don’t think it would be a massive undertaking creating a DPS meter. It would probably take them as much as they are using on living story.
The game already measures DPS when you attack a mob. All they have to do is make a summary of that log.
So you’re asking for a support meter as well. That’s perfectly fine by me. The difficult part is quantitatively measuring both DPS and support together, so it’s better if they keep a separate meter on that.
DPS meters are only relevant in games where content difficulty is tiered and where gear determines the outcome as you have specific benchmarks that must be met or else the party has a high risk of failure.
This is not one of those games.
Maybe we have to consider raising the benchmark from simply pass/failure to good/bad run.
I think there should be an option where if you turn it on, others can see your DPS numbers. For those that doesn’t want others seeing their DPS can just leave it off.
Ahh this thread is a classic know it all pug thread. Since you refuse to listen to those that know more than you, why are you still here?
Because the guys running builds like this with their S/F and GS are usually the ones I wind up picking up off the floor over, and over, and over, and over. Hence the reason for me making this thread. They can’t provide their reflects, blinds, aegis, etc if they are always on the floor.
You were running with bad, really bad, pugs. I cannot possibly think of any other reasons why.
I think it should be changed, but more towards the leader position. Now everybody can kick you by just 2 votes, when we would have one leader with rights to do everything, it would prevent chaos from occurring. Also, dungeon leader would be responsible for group and would command people, as now lot of ppl just dont know what to do and nobody wants to lead.
I’d rather not have a party leader, honestly. People who try to command me around in dungeons when I already know how to handle things just kitten me off.
I would prefer to have a dungeon leader as right now we only have an instance owner. There are party parameters set by the 1st member (leader), and without a true leader it would be difficult to enforce these parameters. If the leader wants to do things a certain way, that’s fine it’s his party.
I don’t think a lot of player build experiment. They would look up on forums the most efficient build, tweak it a bit to their liking, and then stick to it.
Ascended don’t discourage builds/classes as you still have exotics.
