Guild Wars 2

Casia.4281:

I don’t know why anyone would recommend +cond damage for elixir gun..

What is there not to understand? 3/5 abilities apply conditions.

Casia.4281:

Seriously, dont use fumigate,

What I do not understand is how you can seriously tell someone not to use a skill that does 5 stacks of poison damage, lowers opponents healing, gives 5 stacks of vulnerability, and is AoE.

Kyon.9735:

You do realize Net Shot misses A LOT and only immobilizes for 2 seconds. Shield only stuns for 2 seconds only when your enemy attacks you, and one dodge inside a glue gun can break you free. Your argument is totally invalid since engineers can’t swap equipment in mid-battle and all your examples are from the 3 different weapon sets of engineer (Rifle, P/P, P/S) which means we can only get a max of 2 seconds(4 if you have a net turret) of disable. And how long does a grenade stay in midair before landing?

As for WvW, sadly AoE attacks can only hit up to 5 targets and obviously people dodge – a lot. So in reality, it’s not about “utilizing” engineer skills but the grenade kit itself has its own disadvantages

The shield skill is not limited to being hit, if you throw it you daze, and it will daze twice, in an AoE.

Yes, my examples are from 3 different weapons set, because I gave example for each. What does swapping weapons have to do with it?

My argument is extremely valid. I and others I know utilize it. If you refuse to accept working ways to win from those successfully using it, that is your right.

All and all it appears as if you suggesting that you are incapable of utilizing the tools such as stuns, dazes, immobilizes, knock backs and what not that nets, shields, and glue shot offers. A very large amount of engineers use them as I mention, yet you attempt to make it sound impossible. As a matter of fact you discount it entirely and “claim” it is invalid. Sounds as if the skill ceiling is rougher on you then others.

It is a poor carpenter that blames his tools.

A dev replied to this question before. The answer given was that kits need to be as identifiable a any weapon, so that enemies can identify the attacks that may be heading their way, to offer equal and reasonable chance to counter. Something similar to that anyway.

At first I wanted to suggest that it might be OP. But isn’t necro’s fro example, #3 skill 10 second and it does the same effect in the end that our 20s #3 skill does .

I think it works great Tomkatt. I use those two together a lot. I run a heavy toughness build, and stack condition damage. I love Pry bar + concussion grenade + M/H pistols static shock in succession. Nothing is better then watching an enemy do massive damage to itself every time it attempt to do anything at all.

Casia.4281:

Hrm. I was mistaken. But not for the reason you suggest.
The equation is simply algerbra.

weapon damage and skill coeff have no direct relation to power vs toughness outcome.

Oh good lord. So what your saying is that you refuse to even try to learn. Check. I tried to explain it too you in basic terms.

Why are you trying to throw armor into the mix? If you fail to accept and understand toughness, even at the most basic level that I tried to inform you on, why do you think I can even begin to believe you have an idea how much damage armor mitigates?

Look lets go off a very simple error here and try to explain how what your saying doesn’t work. This is one line you offared

Casia.4281:

+ 10 power is 1% of 916. + 10 toughness is .05% of Armor(as the tough+armor combined stat)

+10 power is not even close to 1% of 916, It is freaking 10 power for Pete sake. it is very literally 1% of 1000.

1000 power effects the damage of Hip shot, bomb, and grenade all very differently. Because they all have different damage coefficients. it scales differently with each one. There for any reasonable person can understand that Power is not mitigated by toughness on a 1 to 1 point scale. !point into power will not add 1 point of damage to all 3.

nofo.8469:

As for hip firing, I see far more posts disagreeing with it than praising it.

What did you do, just read the post on this thread over a day or so? Try reading the discussions with more posters. There are a ridiculous number of threads that get into this. By no means is there any evidence of the general population demanding a graphic change. It is quit the opposite.

Azmuth Divarchchron.8059:

4. The elixir gun also needs to be fixed. To the players it has no use other than healing and even the healing on the gun is sub-par. Currently it is a waste of skillpoints to unlock. (give elixer gun skills higher values)

7. The grenade kits are significantly weaker than the flame thrower, they should receive some kind of damage re balancing too.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

Elixir gun is great and generally loved by the engineer community as a whole. Please powers that be ignore 100% of number 4. This individual speaks for no one but themselves, and is selfishly asking for changes that greedily suit his needs and hose the rest of the community. It is a spectacular tool for debuffing, support healing, and cleansing all in one, and works even better with condition builds.

As far as #7, I have to scratch my head. You need to try speaking to at least one other engineer, or read the engineer threads. Traited nades, ridiculously out damage the flame thrower.

Terrahero.9358:

Its not that ability 3 has a bad effect, it takes to long to become available. Its one of those abilities thats hardly ever used simply because you dont get the chance to. And that applies to PvP AND PvE.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

I doubt you have any evidence to support your blunt claim and statement that the #3 skills is hardly ever used in PvE.

The best starting point is to look up combos on the wiki and go through them to learn what combo fields the engineer can use, and how they apply them. The do the same for combo finisher. Basically to become familiar with which skills lay them and which skills use them. that would be the best starting point

Field creators are ::
Fire:
1) Bomb kit #2
2) FT # 4

Smoke:
3) Trait (Auto defense Bomb Dispenser)
4) Flame Turret
5) Bomb Kit #4
6) Elixir U tool belt (33% chance of thief smoke screen)

Water
7) Healing turret
8) Healing turret tool belt
9) mortar #3

Ice:
10) Mortar #4

Light:
11) Elixir Gun (kit refinement, 10s ICD on swap to elixir gun)
12) Super elixir
13) Toss Elixir R
14) Elixir U tool belt (WoR 33% guardian skill)

Confusion:
15) Elixir U tool belt (veil 33% mesmer skill)

Poison:
16)Grenade #5

Finishers:

Projectile (^20%): Hip Shot^, Explosive Shot^, Tranq Shot^, Throw Shield

Blast: Magnetic Inversion, Big Old Bomb, Throw Mine’s Detonate, Shock Wave, Detonate (any) Turret

Leap: Jump Shot

Casia.4281:

What? its a %.
two attacks for 500 will do the same as 1 for 1000 vs lets say 500 toughness, 1000armor.
Changing the 500/1000damage to power and simple weapon/skill numbers for easy viewing.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333.
.5skill*1000weapon*500power/1500=167 × 2 hits=333.

Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.
The reason why toughness is not recommended, is because the equation doesn’t quite end there.
We have crit, we have conditions, we have evasion/avoidance, and we have focus fire.
Not having power, compromises your ability to kill other targets. Especially other high toughness ones. 1000 power vs 1000 toughness/armor
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1000=500
1500 power vs 1500 toughness
.5skill*1000weapon*1500power/1500=500

Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?
1000 power vs 1500 toughness.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333
Your mit based defense can be penetrated with conditions. you don’t have the offense to focus fire in team play.

Basically, you just want enough toughness to not get burst down. Evasion, heals, etc will do the rest, while you need the firepower to kill.

Okay, so your telling me you do not know? The second I read “Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.” it was very clear you do not know the system. Different attack skills, be it weapons skills or utilities, have varying damage coefficients. Meaning different attacks scale differently with power. That should have been your first clue that toughness as a mitigater does not work on a 1 to 1 ratio with power.

Secondly, the equations you offered as support to your idea are not accurate on a mathematical level either.

Now you ask
“Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?”
Well it is pretty simple really. Any build can dodge. Not just “power builds”. i am unclear why you feel they are unique to “voiding damage altogether”. Gear with toughness on it also has offensive stats such as pow/prec/tough……Toughness doesn’t sacrifice any offensive abilities. Every piece of gear has some form of defensive stat, be that toughness, healing, or vitality. Your post appears to work on some assumption that someone is defenseless as a whole, and that is not reasonable, based on gear stats. The difference is the manner of defense chosen.

For every 1 toughness, incoming damage gets reduced by about .305 (I rounded down)

Example: let’s say you have base 20,000 health, and the enemy can do 1000 damage per second. You die in 20 seconds.

Another example:
Base 20,000 hp and 1000 damage per second incoming.

1388 vitality, 1159 toughness. Or 13,880 additional hp and 353.495 damage mitigated. So 33880 health, you die in 52 seconds.

1388 toughness, 1159 vitality. Or 11,590 additional hp and 423.34 damage mitigated. So 31590 health, you die in 54.78 seconds.

Higher toughness out scales the benefit of vitality the higher it goes as well.

I never said you were wrong. As far as I know the OP is the only one who stated that some of the skills were wrong. Not sure why you assume my post referred to you and you alone, I never quoted your post or anything.

That is correct, hip shot is a great animation to me, apparently to the game creators, and to a extremely vast amount of posters who say it is fine in 5,288 other threads.

I think the point is to bring it in line with the equivalent skills sets such as staff for ele or necro. The have skill #1 as single target and the other 4 are all long range AoEs, that give a red circle to opponents just like grenades do. Allowing for them to be just as easily avoided as grenades are.

It is bot an unreasonable concept to bring them in line with similar skill sets if you ask me.

LoreChief.8391:

It’s not a kiting kit, AoE cripple doesn’t do a whole lot for it. Bleeding is fine, but thats not something that could be covered in some other form. The functionality of box-of-nails would still be available during the kit refinement usage anyways~

Who said anything about a kiting kit? It is a great ability for condition engineers that works in conjunction with the confusion.

Your reply pointing out that is isn’t a kiting kit, just shows how close minded, the views on this kit are. Kit refinement allows 2 used of box of nails. That cripple and bleed combo work great to restrict movements for hits with the #1 or #3 skill. It also works well with the bomb kit to restrict movement.

Skilled players are using this very successfully. We do not need to have new threads every day with folks lobbying to change a kit just because they do not use it or like it. When they do, I will lobby against it, if I disagree.

Dislike my stance or opinion all you like. It doesn’t mean myself and others deserve to be hosed do to others lacking with this kit.

The box of nails is nearly the best ability with the kit, just behind the confusion of pry bar.

I love when folks post trying to tell us a list of broken or “wrong” issues with something, when the rest of the player base is using it successfully. Nothing is wrong with the rifle. Every day someone makes post attempting to get a weapon, skill, or utility changed to match how they want it for their specific play style.

Hip shot is a great animation. Leave it alone.

Terrahero.9358:

The 3th ability is awefull because it takes so long before its even available. By that time (wether pve or pvp) im either rallied or dead.

The damage is okay (hello mesmer 6k dmg) with a knockback. But if you are downed this long, something is wrong. Not to mention it can be countered with stability and blind.

Something that takes that long to be available + a cast time better be awesome, and it simply is not. Its like a Little Ol’ Bomb.

That’s nice. This game as a whole, the engineer class, and the engineer down skills are not all based around PvP though. In WvW, solo or group in PvE, this skill is very handy. I play PvP as well, so I see where your coming from. I play all 3 forms of the game. In 2v2 or 3v3 in PvP it gets used too, because they do not always have time to take away to try to stomp, and team mates do not have time to revive. Enemies just try to get a shot on you often enough to keep you from reviving. Trust me, in this PvP situation, an AoE knock back is ridiculously handy, especially when it comes from the last place they expect it, the downed guy.

LoreChief.8391:

-Skill 1: Smack, Whack and Thwack all heal turrets (not just smack). Hits 3 targets now instead of 1.

Not too bad of an idea but that would be crossing the realm to OP I think.

LoreChief.8391:

-Skill 2: is now Focus Fire Turrets will focus on whatever target you’re attacking. No cooldown.

A horrible……horrible idea in my opinion. This is one of the best abilities with the kit. Why would you want to take a AoR cripple and bleed away?

LoreChief.8391:

-Skill 3: is now Pry Bar. Now hits 3 targets instead of 1. Reduces cooldown of overcharge abilities by 3 seconds per target hit.

Reasonable. It should have the same AoE as any melee weapon. The confusion is great for condition builds.

LoreChief.8391:

-Skill 4: is still Gear Shield. Lasts 3 seconds instead of 2. Also repels enemies that strike you.

Yeah, it needs something to be at such a short duration. Several other comparable shield skills have 3s duration and a secondary feature.

LoreChief.8391:

-Skill 5: is still Magnet. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds. Can pull a turret towards your current location.

Reduced cool down perhaps. The whole pull a turret thing seems kind of pointless to me though.

Agree. That is why I asked him about his thought process on it. The answer made alot of sense to me.

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades are spells. Every spell has “aftercast” like in GW1. So if u cast a spell – like grenades – u will have 1/4 sec aftercast. Finaly, greandes hit every 0,75 sec, not every 0,5 sec – but the first time dmg will trigger after 0,5 sec.

This what everyone seems to be forgetting. Everyone acts as if grenades somehow work different then other AoE sets such as eles or necros staff. They have just as much delay as we do. The leave the same red circle we do. The are just as easy or difficult to dodge as ours is.

Everyone all over the engineer forums post as if it is just us, and grenades are individually poor in this respect. Not true. It is game design that offers the counter to it, just like every other thing in the game.

Hand.1692:

It affects them not at all tbh, if they are already using both they would take both traits regardless.

20% off the CD of flamethrower is meh, but it’s really nice for the elixir gun.

15% damage on the elixir gun is meh, but it’s really good on the flamethrower.

When I use a build with both, both are taken, and would still be taken if this change was made.

It would simply be nice if when using a build without one of the kits an option was there to not have 50% useless traits.

Yeah, I think you are right. Generally someone using both would be spending 20 points either way.

the straight forward answer is very viable.

How would one go about making the flame thrower “better”?

Why do we need rifle skills like the warrior? That is why folks play warriors.

I feel the OP is being a bit over dramatic. Every profession has levels of redundancy. The level of redundancy you want to break it down to can vary. With that thought, one could ask why the game has so many weapon choices, thy all do damage, and that is redundant. We should just have each class only use a big stick for damage, because multiple weapons in redundant.

My question is, why do I see so many posters here arguing that we have too much redundancy, yet consistently lobbying in so many other threads for more kits that would do the same functions in new ways, massively increasing redundancy?

I believe a lot of players use both, so they can swap from damage to support in an instance.

What were your thought on how this would effect everyone who doesn’t use a build like yours before you made the suggestion?

I never have trouble with it.

I want to pull them toward me, just before I use the 3 skill as the AoE damage/knock back that it is.

Xyvius.1679:

Actually, the auto-attack for the Engineer’s Rifle is 1000.

I thought it was actually 1050 trait able to 1200. For the sake of discussion, I assumed we would go with the 1200 trait.

Pick a fight? No. But when you make a blunt claim that the profession has very few combo fields when we actually are numerically at the top. Below is a list of combo fields per profession via the wiki. Your making blunt statements that lack fact, and thus spreading mis-information. I correct you, and you get angry at me? I don’t get that.

Test every skill I pointed out on the engineer. Regardless of what the wiki says, everything I state below on engineer is accurate in game.

Thief – 5
necro- 9
mesmer – 6
guardian – 12
Warrior – 1
Ranger – 8
Elementalist – 10
Engineer – 14

Fire:
1) Bomb kit #2
2) FT # 4

Smoke:
3) Trait (Auto defense Bomb Dispenser)
4) Flame Turret
5) Bomb Kit #4
6) Elixir U tool belt (33% chance of thief smoke screen)

Water
7) Healing turret
8) Healing turret tool belt
9) mortar #3

Ice:
10) Mortar #4

Light:
11) Elixir Gun (kit refinement, 10s ICD on swap to elixir gun)
12) Super elixir
13) Toss Elixir R
14) Elixir U tool belt (WoR 33% guardian skill)

Confusion:
15) Elixir U tool belt (veil 33% mesmer skill)

Poison:
16)Grenade #5

Or you can count the 3 offered By toss elixir U and round it down to 1 making it 14 total.

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

What fact do you have to claim the damage mitigation of toughness is weak? Do you even know the mitigation equation of toughness at various levels of opponents power? i doubt it, yet you still make claims. That is not a very reasonable thought process to do such a thing.

Mif.3471:

Xyvius.1679:

I would really love to see Grenades’ “1 skill” to actually be a targeted auto-attack. The rest of the skills can be ground-targeted, just like the Necromancer’s Staff skills. It would really improve movement while using grenades – and that’s what this game is all about.

I used to think that way, then I realised that single target should be a job for Rifle.
Unfortunately Rifle is a melee weapon…

Which is an odd thing to say considering both the single target attacks on the rifle are 1200 range.

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t to run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Toughness mitigates a very good amount of damage. I feel your giving very bad advice. Every 2 points in toughness mitigates more damage then 3 points in vitality can absorb. (it is actually a little more then that, but for the sake of convenience we will call it 2 to 3)

So it is great, as long as you have the condition removal to handle the condition, which toughness does not mitigate what so ever.

Mell.4873:

I do this to probe the community. It seems I’m not wanted. People just want to blindly follow big numbers. I work out what does the most damage or is better or worse. I tell people but they don’t want to hear it seems.
FACT it is the highest dps outside of cond. make a eng go into pvp get 3 grenade build at see how fast u can take down dummies.

I disagree. To me, it is weak players who think inside a very limited box that look at it like this. I love those players, they tend to be vulnerable to my flexable builds and play style that tends to work outside the box. They can have all of the “high” DPS they want. It does little to aid them while they are downed and I am stomping them in WvW.

Noble helm is the same monocle.

XelNigma.6315:

I dont view the engi as being a “good combo-er” as many people have said, the combo fields and finishers are kinda funky to use.

To me, to say a class is a good combo-er, that means they can place and use combo fields naturally, as in they dont have to go out and make placing and using combo fields as there main goal. But thats exactly what an engi has to do if he wants to place and use combo fields.

It should be a byproduct of abilities they would regularly use, not something they have to go out of there way to get.

What feels natural is a very subjective thing. I very much disagree. I use P/S condition build. I use a bomb kit. It is very natural for me to swap to bombs for the concision bomb for confusion, then fire bomb, then switch back to pistol shield. Unless I got out of my way to make awkward positioning, it is too easy to fire right on through it at my opponent or mob and stack burns in the combo. The same goes for the super elixir combo. When using either of those, I would have to go out of my way not to combo them. So from my point of view, it couldn’t work more naturally.

Tinni.4351:

Depends on who you compare with. Of the classes I play, guardian is probably the best in terms of combos since both their hammer and greatsword has comb fields and finishers on the same weapons.

Yes, and engineers have kits that have multiple combo fields with their own finishers.

Tinni.4351:

. Engineers have very few combo fields and they aren’t exactly rolling in finishers either.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

1. Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

2. Don’t poison the well.

3. Make an attempt to be unbiased.

Clearly you have not read the thread at all, because your make a direct and blunt statement that contradicts the facts. Numerical evidence of a comparison of the amount of fields and finishers has been posted and contradicts your statement.

I just wanted to say, I am not voting for a democrat or a republican for the presidential race.

I am just sharing that information, because it is about as relevant as the OP is.

I am sorry, I mis-understood. I thought he was referring to open land use. In water this is true, and I agree, sorry for the confusion.

Colton.9460:

Fool,
1. Buy majority stock in Arena.net.
2. Control with an Iron Fist
3. Buff Necros( and whatever you want to do….)
4. ???
5. Profit

I hate necro’s, yet I thought this was hilarious.

I turned 47 in June. I had this same problem, starting about 15 years ago.

Man it really gets old reading threads all over these forums in which players are requesting and demanding game changes just to suit there situation.

If you want the item on a character, you do it on that character. It was very clear that this was going to be a limited time event. If you couldn’t accomplish that, there is no need to make in game changes to accommodate you.

Such self entitlement demands really gets old.

Spread out too much? It doesn’t matter how far away you are, the damage radius is still in the reticule circle on the ground.

the limit is the amount you have accumulated. So if he has never personally earned an accumulation of 7 gold, then he can never mail more then 7 gold. It is a gold selling deterrent.

LMAO …….OP said it is “worth” 250+ gold. I do not believe that is true. Just because other clowns list it for that much, does not mean they will find a clown that will pay that much.

It is essentially a necessity to split them. Too many times over the years have I seen games ruined by trying to balance the two together.

Lande.5782:

I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but let’s try again:

It’s not a bug, it doesn’t have to be “fixed”. It’s exactly how it’s intended.

If it did apply with weapon kits then the already-powerful Engineer class would be overpowered. Stop spending time complaining on the forums and spend more time getting better at using a very powerful class. If you don’t want to spend that time, go make a Warrior.

Pretty much when they posted that they were in the process of finding a fix for this. It was a fairly dead give away, and I pointed this out previously in this thread.

Because Anet decided it should be a requirement for “this month”. It is part of the game, and any part of the game is suitable to become a part of the monthly achievement at one time or another. Sorry if some of you do not like it.

Rolando.9437:

I feel compelled to coment here because all us happy players should make ourselves be heard also.
Thumbs up!

Agreed.

SO, gold seller sites are bad (check)

guru’s security is weak. (check)

Both were pretty obvious and well known facts.

I could ask the OP why I am forced to PVE content to complete the monthly, but then logic took over again, and I realised it is because it is part of the game. In my opinion, you should have PvE. WvW, and PvP requirements to all be needed for the achievement, personally.

Considering the karma purchases gear that is used in both PvE and WvW, it seems reasonable to gain an achievement that pays out so much currency that benefits both so well in terms of gear, that both be required to gain it.

gkaare.8576:

Koru.8574:

The “inertial converter,” from the tools-trait line, doesn’t always recharge the toolbelt skills, it doesn’t say anything bout a cooldown so I am under the assumption that whenever my health reaches 25% my toolbelt skills will recharge.

I think a safer assumption would be that it has an internal cooldown since all traits like this have an internal cooldown. I added this to the wiki.

I do not know if it is accurate to this or not, but in my experience, benefits on level with this have a 90s cool down on other traits on par with this in most classes. I am making a pure assumption that it would be 90s ICD though.

nofo.8469:

How do we know that the kits are not balanced around not having these stats? If they are then why does it matter?

Because kits are a fundamental part of engineer play, much like elementalist elements. Having such a feature ignore weapon stats and damage means our class is inherently worse at scaling than any other class in the game.

Not to mention all of the conversations and post Anet employee’s made on the forums when we discussed this during bets, and shortly after launch. They verified it was an issue, and stated that they were working on a fix for it. Similar to what they stated about kit auto attacks as well.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

Perhaps my statment “engineers aren’t finished” was a little harsh, but I still think this class can do so much more when everything is fixed. We have such potentien!

Absolutely. Once professions get a little balancing attention and the crack down on bug fixes per profession, conversations of this nature will be different, entirely.