Guild Wars 2

Scrimschaw.5784:

Gabriell.4856:

mtpelion.4562:

Gabriell.4856:

Scrimschaw.5784:

Gabriell.4856:

How come the ranger don’t have reduced stats?

We do. Our weapon damage is lower than other classes.

I really don’t see it on LB and GS. Actually, I don’t see it on any of their weapons.

How come conditions applied by ranger hit for the same amount as other classes?

You can’t really see it directly in game.

Basically, gear has stats that give EVERYONE the same number of power/condition damage/etc on the stat page, however each individual weapon skill has a “damage amount” that is calculated based on a set amount plus a formula that uses the stat page. Because each individual skill has a unique formula, the stat page increases the amount of damage at different rates for different classes/weapons/numbered skills.

Rangers are given more weight towards the flat damage amount and get less benefit from the stat page numbers which means that a full damage specced Elementalist is going to do a lot more damage than a Ranger wearing the exact same gear simply because going full damage does not give as much of a damage increase to the Ranger as it did the Elementalist.

For example consider this hypothetical comparison (assume both Ranger and Elementalist have 100 Power):
Elementalist Skill #1 does 100 damage plus 25% of Power.
Ranger Skill #1 does 100 damage plus 1% of Power.

The Elementalist will do (100 + (100*.25))=125 DPS
The Ranger will do (100 + (100*.01))=101 DPS

The idea is that the Pet will make up the missing 24 DPS, which it can do in PvE against AI that doesn’t ever move but will never do in PvP, WvW, or newer AI that moves around.

Thank you for the informative response. Based on your example, I applied a particular ranger skill vs another class.

Ranger LD Rapid Fire Vs Warrior Volley

10 secs CD, 3.75 damage coef, 1500 range

vs

10 sec Cd, 3.0 damage coef, 1200 range

So…how do you explain that? Maybe Rapid Fire should be nerfed by 30-40%?

If you noticed, each shot from the rifle does more damage than each individual shot from Rapid Fire (5 shots from the rifle versus 10 shots from the longbow). Warriors also have better access to might and damage modifiers than Rangers. They also build up adrenaline to use high-damage burst skills, which increases their overall DPS. If you think that Warrior’s Volley should do more damage, then petition for that. However, as it stands, you appear upset that you were defeated by a ranger, and, rather than learning how to counter Ranger skills, would prefer that they were nerfed to make you feel more powerful. This is not helpful and you ultimately are impeding your own progress as a player.

Those numbers are the combined of all shots, 10 vs 5 makes 0 difference besides it’s harder to blind/aegis the Rangers.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Every class does have stability, now some have varying degrees of stability and access but every class does have it… and I never said anything about teleports.. so…

Engineers don’t have any reliable stability or teleports unless they are a Flamethrower build. What do? Also how about Rangers, they only have it on skills with a 1 second cast time and they can’t dodge CC in there.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

No I addressed it, let’s see same casting animation, so same casting animation, which is simple if he’s laying a trap he’s doing it for his benefit/damage you, or cc you. Now if you dodge through it oh what you eliminated the threat no matter what it was, and if it happens to be Dragon’s Maw even better. Since you know you have two dodges…. and shouldn’t be wasting Stability on anything like that since CD and all, now if you know for certain it’s Dragon’s Maw then you pop Stability since no other trap comes close to same activation animation….. so it looks like I answered your concerns twice. But hey not everyone is great at reading comprehension. Since I never said pop Stab on the casting animation.

What’s the point of dodging Light’s Judgment or Procession of Blades, even if you dodge the effect is still on the ground. Stability is something pre placed to stop stuns, it’s not a stun break that’s kept till after the CC is hit. You are also implying every class and build has stability or a teleport.

Sunshine.5014:

The power creep is too extreme. Obviously they should need things. No class should be able to 1v2 for more than 5 minutes. No class should be able to burst another one in less than 5s. Both the extreme bunker and extreme damage dealer needs to be nerfed.

If a 1 vs 2 lasts 5 minutes it means they had no damage dealers or were extreme bads. I see no problem with 5 second kills, problem is DH 2 second kills.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

glaphen.5230:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scambug.3502:

“Just use stability to counter traps” yeah sure but do you realize how overpowered a skill is if its only counter is stability?
People need to save their stability for stomping/ressing, not to avoid OP instant death traps on 30sec CDs.
DH traps basically remove our ability to stomp/rezz, not only is that blatantly overpowered it’s also game breaking.

Traps should either do huge damage OR strong CC…not both.

Let’s see what’s wrong with most of what you say. One the only counter is not stability, you can dodge through it causing it to activate and being useless, it’s hardly insta death if you get caught in it, people shouldn’t be saving Stab for only stomp/rez it should be used when most effective, which means to counter CC….., oh and it’s not a 30 sec CD it’s 75 Secs, all on top of a very obvious casting Animation and a highly visible activiaton animation. Both of which provide you with time to a) dodge through the trap. b) activate Stability. and c) getting away from it while it’s being cast, also known as positioning. If you get caught in it generally boils down to being outplayed.

You do realize it has the exact same animation as any trap in the game of a simple hand down motion for .5 seconds right? If you somehow see it being placed what if it was actually Procession of Blades or Light’s Judgment with the exact same animation, what if they Judge’s mid cast?

You do realize, that if you notice them casting a trap the best way to render it useless is to dodge through it, since that’s why they give most skills casting animations, to properly time dodges….. now if you do get caught you can clearly see the maw close and before it does you pop Stability to render it useless.

Your response just asks for me to say L2p since that’s your issue…..

Nice job ignoring everything I wrote.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Scambug.3502:

“Just use stability to counter traps” yeah sure but do you realize how overpowered a skill is if its only counter is stability?
People need to save their stability for stomping/ressing, not to avoid OP instant death traps on 30sec CDs.
DH traps basically remove our ability to stomp/rezz, not only is that blatantly overpowered it’s also game breaking.

Traps should either do huge damage OR strong CC…not both.

Let’s see what’s wrong with most of what you say. One the only counter is not stability, you can dodge through it causing it to activate and being useless, it’s hardly insta death if you get caught in it, people shouldn’t be saving Stab for only stomp/rez it should be used when most effective, which means to counter CC….., oh and it’s not a 30 sec CD it’s 75 Secs, all on top of a very obvious casting Animation and a highly visible activiaton animation. Both of which provide you with time to a) dodge through the trap. b) activate Stability. and c) getting away from it while it’s being cast, also known as positioning. If you get caught in it generally boils down to being outplayed.

You do realize it has the exact same animation as any trap in the game of a simple hand down motion for .5 seconds right? If you somehow see it being placed what if it was actually Procession of Blades or Light’s Judgment with the exact same animation, what if they Judge’s mid cast?

Toeofdoom.6152:

glaphen.5230:

Toeofdoom.6152:

The pets are presumably gone for a related reason to that amulet – most minions don’t scale with stats, allowing surprisingly high damage along with huge defensive stats (remember the old sentinel turret engi?)

Remove amulet and remove them in the same patch, makes sense. Cleric’s has been in since launch and power creep wasn’t happening back then.

Sure, but druid, scrapper and so on weren’t.

Yes and the pets are still a strong as launch but everything else is far more powerful with this power creep.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

No, for the record, Druids can absolutely not 1vX multiple enemies with the same ease with Clerics as they can with Minstrels. This is absolute common sense, similarly how not playing bunker thief is common sense. Sorry not sorry.

If you’re posed with this scenario:

“The Druid survived 3 equally skilled people long enough for teammates to rotate in and not be faced with a losing fight”

And the burning question you have is, ‘Well, were any of those 3 people bruisers?’

It makes me think you maybe have a very wrong idea of what an acceptable 1vX time to kill should be, m8.

I don’t wanna point out the obvious, but Anet has seen enough of the Minstrels Amulet for it to ‘play out.’

That’s why they let Celestial play out for this long right? Bruiser is a hybrid build, don’t expect fast kill times on pure defensive builds, pure offensive builds can kill them quite easily when they make a mistake or run out of defenses. Again I do not see how the vitality could possibly extend the kill times much unless the multiple players had low burst potential that just could break less than 5.5k.

Toeofdoom.6152:

The pets are presumably gone for a related reason to that amulet – most minions don’t scale with stats, allowing surprisingly high damage along with huge defensive stats (remember the old sentinel turret engi?)

Remove amulet and remove them in the same patch, makes sense. Cleric’s has been in since launch and power creep wasn’t happening back then.

ReaperJr.5967:

Glaphen just stop. Chaith is right lol. Just stop for a moment and check your bias. Then try and digest what he just said. He’s a top tier competitive player that probably knows more about the scene than you do.

I don’t give a kitten, he hasn’t shown me anything I didn’t already know about vitality and bunkers. Meta is currently bruisers, Bunker>Bruiser>Damage>Bunker.

Velimere.7685:

I’m certain this rune was removed to keep Unrelenting Assault powerful in the 1v1.

Oh see I didn’t even think of that, indirect buff to Revenant 1 vs 1, dev probably got kittened when it happened to him.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

Oh that’s where you couldn’t be more wrong. Various Minstrels amulet users can and did survive long enough to hold points neutralized while outnumbered until rotations can happen.

How do you think the a game’s time had elapsed 15 minutes to time-out before teams had reached 150 points? Because exactly what you’re saying can’t happen, was happening. Before concentration stat went live.

Yes and that has nothing to do with Minstrel’s besides maybe the Guardian but I didn’t see the game. Druid could have done the same thing guaranteed with Cleric’s, but maybe it was 3 bruisers with low burst potential and the vitality could have played a part in surviving that, so that means remove any meta changing elements before it plays out right?

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst

Don’t you love it when everybody in conquest takes turns attacking you?

Get out

Yeah don’t you? Because you aren’t going to survive multiple people either way unless they aren’t damage builds.

Mahou.3924:

That’s why vocal majority of PvPers (excluding the view reasonable ones) are disgusting. Let’s nerf everything, why care how the other game modes are affected by this.

ANet is the one choosing to not separate the balance.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

You say vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest, this is true, but only in a picky and disingenuous way. When I say ‘increases sustain’ I mean increases their up-time to stay alive on point under high pressure. This is because your personal survivability increases by decreasing the threat of getting caught out by immobilize, condition overload, multiple attackers.

If you survive that immobilize combo and get to your next heal rotation, you’ve added an insane amount of up-time on that point, against enemies exhausted of their cooldowns. Essentially the holes in your defensive cooldown rotation where you’re vulnerable to being downed get erased. Plug the holes, survive indefinitely against things which you never could survive with a much lower health pool.

Other builds are forced to give up the point and kite in order to cope with this extra pressure, to allow their actual sustain to work properly.

I encourage you to play Clerics Bunker Guardian (No vitality stat) without Force of Will, and then enjoy then toggle Force of Will on, and tell me how your life changes with 3,000 more health to buffer all those defensive cooldowns.

I already said Guardians benefit from it even without the boon duration, Druids and the rest of the classes have 16k already which is enough to survive single person burst besides DH bullkitten easily. I already play bunker Thief and see no difference with Cleric’s and Minstrel’s, just DH can’t bullkitten me as easily and the rare multiple people failing to finish me while I’m vulnerable which as you said does happen but this is solo queue and it is still rare to not be killed within 3 seconds of stun with 17k health.

Eurantien.4632:

So your s/x staff build is gonna entangle your target… then what? Your huge dps pressure is gonna kill them? I don’t think so. Sure it can be good for team play, but again, i don’t expect it to make any huge plays.

Also, it doesn’t work with launch, despite what the tool tip says (which I think is a good thing).

Immobilize is extremely deadly lol, can’t be beaten by stun breaks only condition removal, prevents evades and movement guaranteeing hits unless they block/invulnerability/weapon evade but those tend to have longer than a 10 second cooldown and lower than a 5 second duration, though invulnerability protects you and a well time weapon evade can ignore a tick if no condition duration increases.

Saiyan.1704:

People are forgetting the powerful effects the boon duration healing amulet had on NPCs in Stronghold and Foefire Lord. It was ridiculous beyond belief.

There’s a bunker who can sustain himself and offer utility supportive abilities to allies, then there’s Minstrel amulet… it definitely had a more unhealthy effect in PvP’s gamemodes.

Boon duration didn’t even work and Cleric’s has more healing power for NPCs.

Chaith.8256:

glaphen.5230:

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

I’ve seen your posts in other threads and while I see where you’re coming from, it seems like you severely underestimate how vitality affects high sustain professions.

Vitality drastically increases one’s ability to sustain in outnumbered fights (1v2+) where pressure sharply increases. You’re correct in saying that Clerics is ‘just as good’, for a 1v1 in which there is not enough pressure to quickly overcome your defenses.

Vitality makes you extremely harder to neutralize by outnumbering. How many times have you died as a sustain class because you just couldn’t survive a few more seconds until your next life saving dodge or heal? Every death.

Clerics Druid for example will still be great. It will just be dealt with easily when outnumbered.

Hope that explains.

The vitality does not increase sustain in the slightest. The 5.5k healths only benefits are once a fight, possible burst protection if currently above normal max health and they can’t take it away during the CC, increased downed health but weaker to healing skills while downed, Necromancer life force. Could be a problem of too many bruisers that can’t actually burst quickly and the meta didn’t adapt.

Eurantien.4632:

That’s just not really a viable way to play it imo.

Well Smokescale knocks down every 16-20 seconds and there is no reason not to take that. Most people also take Electric Wyvern which launches every 20-25 seconds. You can also use ally CC.

Mooncow.6847:

glaph i’ve read you say this everywhere and you’re so wrong it’s unreal. the 5.5k health lets them sustain the burst that other wise would have 1 shot them. THEN the sustain kicks in. sure it would still be very tanky on a clerics, no one is arguing that

Yes the sole benefit of vitality on bunker builds is burst protection, but if they are CCd and being hit by burst from multiple people they should be dead either way. Maybe too many bruisers is a bad idea?

Eurantien.4632:

Something to consider. To take full advantage of this trait a druid cannot run very defensive weapons. That means they are much easier to kill and lock down without evade spam. Is the stark difference in survival enough to justify Ancient Seeds? I am of course a little bias, but I kind of think it is. If another ranger is running this trait, running a longbow, that’s an easy target to call. I have no fear of my enemies running this trait.

Why can they not run defensive weapons? Pets have CC and only 1 handed weapons have no CC, staff can get it on weapon swap.

jewishjoyride.4693:

This trait doesn’t even work properly half the time. Let’s at least fix it so it works consistently across the board. Then after that maybe, maybe, maybe change the icd.

But seriously if you’re dying to this trait, you were going to die anyways. Manage your cooldowns and have some situational awareness. Kitten.

Manage your cooldowns and remove the 10 second cooldown immobilize. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Reflexes that works pretty well it looks against it.

Chaith.8256:

As soon as Minstrels was added, the pace of top tier competitive games/scrims on EU was slowed to record low levels.

We’re talking, 130-125 timer wins. With skilful rotation-matching, and neutralizing of points, the match is twisted into a whole different game, one that clearly Anet wasn’t happy with.

Something that I feel that Anet was looking more at was:

• How is the overall pace of the game? Are fights ending when one side becomes outnumbered? Are kills happening?

• What is the time-to-neutralize for 2 roamers against one Minstrels bunker? Does that fit in line with the current healthy time for 2 roamers to force the Minstrels bunker to concede the point, or die?

Don’t shoot the messenger guys, but it looks like Minstrels Amulet failed to pass those little checks, despite having 560 useless stats (concentration stat not online yet).

5.5k health once a battle made games extremely slow somehow, you sure it wasn’t just Druids sustain in general? Because there shouldn’t be a difference in a bunkers survivability off of just 5.5k health besides Guardians and Necros.

ReaperJr.5967:

Yet some guy was telling me clerics is better than minstrel.. LOL

It is for like half the possible bunker builds. Best either way on Guardian and Necromancer. Ranger, Mesmer and Revenant are best with it if the boon duration worked. Tempest is better off with Celestial, Engineer, Warrior and Thief are best with Cleric’s. Though my bunker Thief was better with this until DH does reasonable damage.

Eurantien.4632:

You all know that you can just walk out of entangle with hoelbrak or melandru runes, or anything else that reduces immob duration. Many classes have traits that do this.

Still. kitten added cd might be worth considering.

Yes 20 and equal to Panic Strike would probably be balanced and combine nicely with Primal Echoes.

Kuya.6495:

I’m so confused by all these threads. I can’t tell if people wanted or hated the minstrel amuletanymore.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Can-we-remove-Minstrel-Amulet/first
This was the only thread about it and it was mainly about Druids after the first like 5 posts.

cakeonroof.7385:

This guy is influential. The only person who didn’t like Minstrel. If anet listens to him, maybe we can bribe him to post topics that serve our best selfish interests.

Yes I have to wonder if they even read the thread or just looked at the post count because almost all the posts were about Druids.

Also just want to say my Thief is practically completely immune to this with http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant
but it’s obviously overpowered.

Belzebu.3912:

glaphen.5230:

mistsim.2748:

AS is our worst GM. well, was, until LL got nerfed into uselessness because of scrubs like OP raising a bit too much noise.

Lol passive 5 second root and 5 bleeds every 10 seconds is worst GM but somehow your fine.

If by passive you mean, hit a dazed player, then yeah … it is a passive 5sec (destructible) root + bleeding on 10 sec CD (btw it is 1 target)

It’s actually not single target, if multiple people are CC and you use an AoE hit they all get immobilized and it works on things other than daze.

Jericho.4598:

glaphen.5230:

mistsim.2748:

AS is our worst GM. well, was, until LL got nerfed into uselessness because of scrubs like OP raising a bit too much noise.

Lol passive 5 second root and 5 bleeds every 10 seconds is worst GM but somehow your fine.

Thieves can on demand reliably root a person for more than 5 seconds if they so choose and they do that out from the shadows. How the hell is this any more OP than that? Keep in mind you have to proc another attack on top of a daze or knocked down person to have that proc and on top of that moving out of the cc zone breaks the vines already.

How do they do this? Venom is only 3 hits per ally and the trait has a long cooldown and doesn’t pulse or bleed. Wow a whole attack! Also I just looked and they nerfed Panic Strike duration. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Panic_Strike
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Panic_Strike&oldid=610304
2.5 seconds that doesn’t pulse per 20 on half health people compared to 5 per 10 plus 5 bleeds on any CCd target.

Zero Day.2594:

glaphen.5230:

Pretty useless build, this item already does everything your Thief does but faster.

While that is a legitimate opponent to the build, it relies either heavily on RNG, gold to convert to gems, or a credit card to acquire the item. This build doesn’t rely on those ways to excel at what it does.

Plus that item requires you to have one bag slot empty. Not to mention it will cause a loading screen, increasing the time it takes to get to the services.

---

Actually unsure of the loading screen, just guessing.

Pretty sure you only have 5 character slots normally so why would I waste one on a Thief, have to pay 800 gems for one and I’m pretty sure the pass had cost around the same. Load screen happens but you can leave the character logged of in there and then delete the pass even.

mistsim.2748:

AS is our worst GM. well, was, until LL got nerfed into uselessness because of scrubs like OP raising a bit too much noise.

Lol passive 5 second root and 5 bleeds every 10 seconds is worst GM but somehow your fine.

Yes for some reason their barriers are invisible to me 90% of the time at nearly highest settings.

Pretty useless build, this item already does everything your Thief does but faster.

ReaperJr.5967:

Elementalists atm have no damage if we spec into sustain, and no sustain if we spec into damage. I think its highly irrelevant to talk about eles now as they have been phased out.

When did Elementalist get phased out, that won’t happen till Celestial gets removed so then you lose the build to sustain and damage at once.

Click the 2 minute timer on the scoreboard, one click to leave.

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

You mean the healing power that Cleric’s gives more of. It does not compliment healing power at all, toughness does, vitality does not help you sustain at all. Well my shortbow basic on Thief does 175×3 around with Minstrel’s does 400×3 with Cleric’s and most builds only have around 400 HPS. You are easily out damaging their healing with shortbow with just one target, with Minstrel’s you could never out damage someones healing.

Ok lets just stop with the scenerios for a moment, i just noticed a glaring flaw in your argument: if clerics was so much better than minstrel, why was everyone using minstrel?

Many people did not know the boon duration didn’t work which would make it better. It was really only good on Guardian, bunker Necromancers, Tempest but Celestial was better and my bunker Thief so I could stand a chance against the DH spam. Also Druids with boon duration would also be an upgrade since pets hit hard enough.

Okay lets assume you are right for a moment, where does celestial come into the equation?

Look at Elementalist? They removed Minstrel’s because of the Druid complaints instead of nerfing Druids, which they still will be doing nearly the exact same thing in 1 vs 2-3s with a Cleric’s, I used to do the same thing on my Cleric’s Ranger but Druid is a pure upgrade to that build. So they should remove amulet to “balance” Elementalist like Druids but Elementalist is already a jack of all trades that only had this as a choice to amplify it’s base.

Eval.2371:

Saiyan.1704:

Timiok.1048:

Why have we been doing the same exact thing for like 2 years? Heck, why do we come here to complain to other people, and not the devs themselves? We could have actual meaningful threads if we could directly contact them about the ‘balance’ issues.

I mean, this part of the forums is just toxic and everywhere is mild.

To be honest, the only thing that can be toxic is two players offering two different experiences based on their own point of view that may or may not be 100% accurate. These heated debates could originate from

• #1 The competitive realm they compete on.
  SoloQ meta is different than Team ESL play

• #2 Learn 2 Play elements from the player himself.
  including engagement strategies on the map

• #3 The build a particular person plays
  using a non-meta build for example

• #4 A one sided aspect that’s seen on one build from one class, while the other professions have 0 issues

The first three, in order, are the most common. It’s why they’re mentioned first.

A perfect example is a Thief calling burn guard OP when other classes typically have 0 issues with it. The thief is right in that this particular build is OP. But the build itself is not OP compared to other classes. These other classes think it’s a l2p issue as the thief shouldn’t should have played the map better from the get-go.

The majority of the QQ thread originates from solo players on unsyncronized teams. Considering the vast majority of players are new, #2 and #3 suddenly stick out like a sore thumb.

+1 this is all so true. A lot of the toxicity tho starts from the OP’s post. Has a lot to do with the mentality here. I see X is OP or Nerf Y 50x more than How do you deal with Z. Thats the problem from there it just end up into one of your 4 categories you mentioned.

A lot of people that post on here also have issues with tone when writing and everything comes across as condescending and belittling instead of constructive advice.

So how do I deal with the Z in the entirety of my post.

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

You mean the healing power that Cleric’s gives more of. It does not compliment healing power at all, toughness does, vitality does not help you sustain at all. Well my shortbow basic on Thief does 175×3 around with Minstrel’s does 400×3 with Cleric’s and most builds only have around 400 HPS. You are easily out damaging their healing with shortbow with just one target, with Minstrel’s you could never out damage someones healing.

Ok lets just stop with the scenerios for a moment, i just noticed a glaring flaw in your argument: if clerics was so much better than minstrel, why was everyone using minstrel?

Many people did not know the boon duration didn’t work which would make it better. It was really only good on Guardian, bunker Necromancers, Tempest but Celestial was better and my bunker Thief so I could stand a chance against the DH spam. Also Druids with boon duration would also be an upgrade since pets hit hard enough.

Wolfs Shadow.7234:

glaphen.5230:

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

You kind of contradicted yourself, by saying every class is OP would in fact make all the classes balanced.

o.0

Now think of the people without the expansion with these supposed side grade options. Not like they are all at the same level of OP, just listed pieces that are possibly OP.

Laki.7160:

The power on Cleric’s is more or less wasted when playing a Druid. Not like the skills do any relevant amount of damage, even with full power.

Please, every time I died with a Druid in the fight the top skill was always their staff basic attack, now imagine if they had more than double damage.

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

Healing power supplements vit lol. You cant just isolate vit and disregard the healing power the smulet gives. With or without the 900 power you will be doing no damage if youre specced to be a bunker.

You mean the healing power that Cleric’s gives more of. It does not compliment healing power at all, toughness does, vitality does not help you sustain at all. Well my shortbow basic on Thief does 175×3 around with Minstrel’s does 400×3 with Cleric’s and most builds only have around 400 HPS. You are easily out damaging their healing with shortbow with just one target, with Minstrel’s you could never out damage someones healing.

Tempest: Shocking Aura to entire team nearly permanently while spamming the ridiculous massive AoE damage of Overcharge Air.

Reaper: Permanent chill and far more CC on Reaper Form while they get high stability up time and better damage than base and Rise gives too much sustain and damage in one skill.

Druid: New pets are obvious upgrades over base, too much free sustain for non bunker builds, ignore the people who complain about Astral Force generation because staff is probably the best weapon in one slot either way, too much immobilize if they take Ancient Seeds.

Dragon Hunter: Traps in general with their nearly instant ridiculous damage, CC and utility. Virtues are pure upgrades over base besides possibly Resolve since it can be interrupted but everything else about it is better. Too much CC in general with LB grandmaster, LB5, Justice pull and elite trap giving 12 seconds of barrier spam. Too tanky with a damage build compared to a normal Guardian damage build.

Chronomancer: 10 seconds of easily hit stuns that hit in a massive AoE and remove multiple stacks of stability. Need to remove Continuum or at least the cooldown reset portion which would solve above.

Scrapper: Too much defense and damage combined on the hammer combined with base Engineer amazingness with a free revive/stomp support.

Berserker: Pretty ridiculous condition damage and CC with mace.

Daredevil: Too much condition removal on dodge, but I still die on my bunker Thief to condition builds nearly instantly so…

Herald: Too much block/evade spam combined with amazing damage and healing. Hammer zerkers do some broken damage from ridiculous ranges with Coalescence of Ruin with just one use and it has nearly no cooldown.

In no actual order.

morrolan.9608:

glaphen.5230:

morrolan.9608:

glaphen.5230:

Quadox.7834:

@glaphen
That has nothing to do with them removing it now. They simply realized that these runes don’t promote healthy gameplay- and they are right. No point thinking about why they haven’t in the past.

@Koviko
They didn’t remove these because they are strong, or they would remove pack or something. They removed them/changed them because they had either:
1- AI pets
2- Passive strong effect like ice block.

So when are they removing Sigil of Demon Summoning and any pet summon skills/Ranger class.

Pet summons skills and ranger are balanced around the ability to summon or have pets out in the context of the specific class, ogre could be used by anyone. From a balance POV it was clearly problematical and I’m glad its been removed. Given vampire runes they probably should rework it without the summons.

Sigil of Demon Summoning can be used by anyone. You still don’t even seem to understand how useless the pets even were, especially with the power creep.

Wasn’t talking about the sigil but if its the same it should be removed. I do think ogre was removed because there were increasing numbers of people using it so it became a bigger issue.

Let’s ignore the first year where it was used by pretty much everyone but went unchanged and was far stronger back then since the pet didn’t have this power creep to deal with.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

glaphen.5230:

Koviko.3248:

Does ANet typically remove runes and amulets? I imagine this is the kind of precedent that will make it scary to try and innovate in builds since the moment you find something strong, you may lose it.

Pretty sure this is the first amulet removed and the only rune removed before was Perplexity shortly after putting it in.

Perplexity was never added. They decided against it after the kneejerk reactions on the forums after the preview.

And yes, these were kneejerk reactions and unfounded, since this would have gone in on the same patch as the massive rune and sigil overhaul. They had nerfed the rune and we didn’t have context to compare it to, since we only knew two other rune sets at that point.

Well I thought it was added, definitely remember that I was complaining about it coming to SPvP.

Zatoichi.1049:

destroyed my druid twice, first lingering light, then minstrel

If you are any good Cleric’s is and was better for Druids without the boon duration working.

nearlight.3064:

TheDevice.2751:

A tempest can take out 20k hp in under 3 seconds while not even using all his healing.

Daredevils cannot be seen nor can they be hit and if they do get hit they reset the fight.

There is so much wrong with the balance of this game and reaper has gotten the short end of the stick. The only ELITE SPEC IN THE GAME not allowed to be in competitive pvp.

Great work.

Again my theories about this development team are always on point. Anet takes so much time trying to make sure necromancers are not too strong. Meanwhile, its sky’s the limit for their favorite professions.

Has anyone actually SEEN the aa on reaper gs? Has anyone actually seen this catastrophe? Just remove it lol. Like just remove the skill entirely nobody is going to use it, its pointless.

Oh well of course unless ur pve…………………….. great work.

I GUARANTEE there will never be a reaper in pro tournament play. Never. Not ever.

How in any universe are anyone calling reaper op? Lemme make a tempest real quick. Or lemme make a daredevil or guard. I’ll drop any reaper under 30 seconds.

Just wondering, why do you think Tempest is overpowered? The general forum consensus is that its underpowered, though I’d agree that most people are underrating it by judging it too harshly on paper than in practice.

You can get nearly permanent Shocking Aura for your entire team while kittenting out the massive AoE damage of Overload Air.

Quadox.7834:

glaphen.5230:

morrolan.9608:

glaphen.5230:

Quadox.7834:

@glaphen
That has nothing to do with them removing it now. They simply realized that these runes don’t promote healthy gameplay- and they are right. No point thinking about why they haven’t in the past.

@Koviko
They didn’t remove these because they are strong, or they would remove pack or something. They removed them/changed them because they had either:
1- AI pets
2- Passive strong effect like ice block.

So when are they removing Sigil of Demon Summoning and any pet summon skills/Ranger class.

Pet summons skills and ranger are balanced around the ability to summon or have pets out in the context of the specific class, ogre could be used by anyone. From a balance POV it was clearly problematical and I’m glad its been removed. Given vampire runes they probably should rework it without the summons.

Sigil of Demon Summoning can be used by anyone. You still don’t even seem to understand how useless the pets even were, especially with the power creep.

Go ahead, plead to them to remove Demon summoning sigil then.

This thread makes no sense, it doesn’t matter what reason they had to remove it, why would you want to play with an AI anyway? Why? I don’t understand why everyone needs to argue about this so kitten much when there are so many other things to complain about.

Yes let’s remove all AI skills in the game then as I said. If you or ANet have a problem with those 3 why be so hypocritical about the rest.

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

glaphen.5230:

ReaperJr.5967:

Because this doesnt allow players to hold infinitely against multiple players.

Neither does Minstrel’s It’s actually worse than Cleric’s for that.

It isnt because clerics doesnt give purely defensive stats.

Whoa but vitality is the most useless of them, it gives no sustain only slight burst protection.

More vit=more hp=more damage soaking=more bunkering.

What does power do for bunkering?

Make it so they are actually helping kill the enemy. So what happens after that initial 5.5k HP disappears, nothing it’s gone forever yet your problem with it is the 1 vs 2-4s. Which is why the health was nearly useless at its only purpose of burst protection because if you are focused by multiple people you should be dead before the CC is over if they aren’t kitten. Vitality is only good for damage builds and Necromancers.

morrolan.9608:

glaphen.5230:

Quadox.7834:

@glaphen
That has nothing to do with them removing it now. They simply realized that these runes don’t promote healthy gameplay- and they are right. No point thinking about why they haven’t in the past.

@Koviko
They didn’t remove these because they are strong, or they would remove pack or something. They removed them/changed them because they had either:
1- AI pets
2- Passive strong effect like ice block.

So when are they removing Sigil of Demon Summoning and any pet summon skills/Ranger class.

Pet summons skills and ranger are balanced around the ability to summon or have pets out in the context of the specific class, ogre could be used by anyone. From a balance POV it was clearly problematical and I’m glad its been removed. Given vampire runes they probably should rework it without the summons.

Sigil of Demon Summoning can be used by anyone. You still don’t even seem to understand how useless the pets even were, especially with the power creep.

Quadox.7834:

@glaphen
That has nothing to do with them removing it now. They simply realized that these runes don’t promote healthy gameplay- and they are right. No point thinking about why they haven’t in the past.

@Koviko
They didn’t remove these because they are strong, or they would remove pack or something. They removed them/changed them because they had either:
1- AI pets
2- Passive strong effect like ice block.

So when are they removing Sigil of Demon Summoning and any pet summon skills/Ranger class.