Non-lore wise, it is mostly because this is a different game. Anet took most of the major places from Guild Wars 1 and put them in the same spots in Guild Wars 2, but pretty much everything in between is completely different. The watchtowers of Watchtower Coast, the mysterious ruins in Arbor Bay, Beacon’s Perch, Fort Ranik, Surmia, all of the Stone Summit’s architecture, all absent from Guild Wars 2 without explanation.
Yes it is a different game, but built off the foundation of the first game. I know this isn’t real life, but many of those places and names are just mysteriously gone with no trace?
Konig had some great explanations for some of them, but others places are just stupefying. I know we can speculate as to what happened, but in game there should at least be some physical evidence of the places that were once there.
Droknar’s Forge for heaven’s sake! It was one of the major cities. Climate change or not, now it is a little camp with no evidence of it’s large, Euro-influenced, STONE structures? I just don’t by it. Stone doesn’t deteriorate in 250 years. Same with the little places like Camp Rankor and Port Sledge.
Stuff like this is just infuriating and frustrating to me. I really couldn’t wait to see what they would do with these places. I sure was not expecting a majority of them to become invisible or inconsequential after 250 years.
Try this link out. It lays GW1 locations on the GW2 map and you can get some ideas about where things are and see how some names changed some.
As for name changes I am not sure.
Thanks bud! That was great. Love the comparative map. But what it really did was just bring up more questions. A lot of the ones I asked about are there and we have access to them, but no ruins or anything? No mention of them? I know that towns and places vanish with time, but in the almost 250 years the U.S. has been in existence, there are more places than not that are still around that were there then. And those that are not, usually have some kind of indication of their passing.
So Riverside Province is just a road now?
Arachni’s Haunt is a warf?
Vlox’s Falls is a swamp?
Etc., etc., etc.
Ok, I understand that the waters flooded LA, blah, blah, blah. What I guess I don’t understand is how area names an places that were not flooded changed. I’ve don’t some Googling and wiki-ing but I guess I am not clear on some Kryta name changes.
Maybe there isn’t an explanation yet for some of these changes.
I know names change and I am pretty bad with map comparisons but can anyone tell me what happened to and are we just not able to access them yet:
The Black Curtain
Talmark Wilderness
Bergen Hot Springs
Cursed Lands
Watchtower Coast
Tears of the Fallen
Stingray Strand
Fisherman’s Haven
D’Alessio Seaboard
Is there somewhere that compares the two maps?
It is possible that 1 out of 10 ships go missing, but definitely not something that cuts off one or 2 continents.
I agree. Maybe it is the things he is forcing out of the deeps that are causing the problems for ships and land races and not the dragon itself.
I know that it was addressed by Eric Flannum in an interview. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/04/28/guild-wars-2-interview-part-1-fighting-fires/
It addresses the mechanic reasons for no second profession but not the lore. In the interview he even said that they struggled with not including the second profession mechanic because it was such a large part of GW1.
You would think that they would come up with some sort of lore reason why second professions no longer exist though. I googled it and couldn’t find anything Anet has provided as a lore explanation.
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Fine I’m wrong. I don’t know anything about lore, obviously, so please fill my useless void of a head and fix the major voids/gaps in lore that make it so terribly hard to wrap my brain around this problem
You are not wrong Narcemus. And you are not overreacting. There is no real explanation for why rezzing is gone and it is completely understandable for you to want to know why. Some people can tell you this is why it is or this is what happened, but ultimately it is just their guess or interpretation of why it is no longer around.
I understand how you feel there are many bits of GW1 lore and mechanics that have been conveniently ignored. I have issues with some of them too. Until Anet addresses them, you have a right to your questions and opinions. Don’t let anyone tell you why you are right or wrong about things they have no explanation for other than their own guesses or speculations.
Just remember, they have a right to their opinions too. Even if they are sometimes tactless in pointing them out.
Yeah, 200 years is a big one. The UK used to be the empire that the sun never sets on. The USA used to be scattered colonies in that empire. France used to be a world power. Spain used to be a world power. Granted this all didn’t change in the same 200 years but 200 years is a lot of wiggle room for anything to happen.
I agree. I also would add that a world changing event happened in those 250 years. The elder dragons awoke. The EDs awakenings probably was viewed as an semi-apocalyptic event or the foreshadowing of such and event. This would tend to change views of huge numbers of any population.
Also, the Sylvari are new and them being divided into a dark and light side just may be natural for them and have an impact on the world for which we really have no clue yet.
One thing I will agree on, is that there are many places that have been abandoned or outright destroyed with not much explanation. I was sure that we would see many of the places we used to travel to thriving. Not much is left in any way. Beetletun is one of the few recognizable places remaining. It just strikes me as humorous that not much else from the previous game remains. Hopefully places we don’t have access to as of yet, will pop up as those regions become available.
Ele – 80
Guardian – 80
Mesmer – 80
Ranger – 80
Warrior – 80
Engineer – 41
I see necros as manipulating the undead corpses and corrupted spirits for their ends and the ritualists (as in GW1) could be manipulating the more benign spirits and magics stemming from the mists.
What constitutes a “corrupted spirit”? Why such a term? Why would heroes deal with something that, by term usage, implies evil? Necromancers are “dark” but not “evil” in the least – not by default, at least.
Similarly, why would ritualists solely deal with benign? And even if you think that – you’re wrong.
You obviously didn’t read my reply to Drax. I said that I never thought necros were evil and that Rits had spirits that were not benign. And corrupted has more meanings than the implication of evil. A plan can become corrupted meaning the that the plan changed from its original inception. Corruption can mean an exploitation or distortion of something. All of the necros minions and spirits are not as they appeared originally making them both exploited and distorted versions of thier original forms. They are corrupted. Not just the spirits but minions as well. Again, corrupted here does not imply evil.
I also agreed that Rits had spirits that were not all benign. I was only offering that as a suggestion of how things COULD be altered to distinguish the professions. The same goes for body blocking. I know we don’t have it until activated, I was offering it as a possibility for added skills.
This thread was a opportunity for people to be creative and give opinions of what they thought could happen or what they envision the four newest GW1 professions if “We ever get to go back.” There are many, many possibilities of how ANet could add things or make them adaptable to GW2. They did so with Mesmers. And since this thread asks what happens “If we get to go back,” that implies that we would be there and not in Tryia any longer. None of us, including you, have any idea how Anet could manipulate lore or mechanics to fit us back into Cantha and Elona. These are just speculations and opinions.
If you have ideas about what happens if we are allowed back in Elona and Cantha, by all means post them here. They are welcome. That is what this thread is for. This is supposed to be a fun thread where people can enjoy speculating, not to have their words twisted or opinions scrutinized.
I don’t think it’s necessary for the dervishes to take a ‘the gods abandoned us so we’ll abandon them’ attitude. In fact, the dervishes may well be the only ones in Elona to truly believe in the gods, since they’re the ones that have always had access to the human racial skills.
I 100% agree with you. I was just saying that is one direction that they could go to change the dervishes if they felt they needed to do so. I would rather them still be connected to the gods personally.
I see necros as manipulating the undead corpses and corrupted spirits for their ends and the ritualists (as in GW1) could be manipulating the more benign spirits and magics stemming from the mists.
I see where you’re coming from, but it’s a pretty fine distinction to make, especially since unlike many settings, “necromancer” isn’t shorthand for Always Evil Wizard. A necromancer’s shade could well be the manifestation of an ancestor in a war aspect. On the flipside, names of Ritualist spirits like Pain and Agony don’t exactly evoke images of benign spirits.
I didn’t mean to suggest that necros are evil in any way. I am just saying there is a distinction between the two classes. Necros tend to use the physical remains of creatures and places where rits traditionally used the spirits. Where it is true that necros in GW2 seem to be utilizing spirit magic more, there are many things that still make the ritualist distinctive despite the bleed over into other classes. And you are right, Pain, Agony, and Destruction are not exactly benign, LOL. In GW1 however, the two classes never felt remotely the same. Just as Engineers and Rits do not feel remotely the same. So I believe that a Rit could be manipulated just as the mesmer was to recapture a new/old profession.
I could easily see the call being made that the necromancer has the theme of communing with the dead (what the term ‘necromancy’ actually originally referred to) while the engineer is ‘close enough’ from a mechanical perspective.
Again I agree with the part about the necro. About the engineer I can see what you are saying, but if we do go back to Cantha, from a lore perspective, engineers, even mechanically, do not make sense as a rit replacement. Even necros by themselves do not make sense there because both were obvious separate professions in Cantha. Maybe it is easier to explain the rits absence in Tyria, it would not be in Cantha.
I agree that the engineer turrets should be better. Engineers are NOT a replacement for Rits. If turrets are what makes them a replacement for rits, somewhere Anet has seriously failed. Turrets as they are suck. They are not the main utilities used by most Engineers and they were the core of most Rit builds in one way or another.
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Paragon and Assassin I don’t see. Paragon is, essentially, a warrior or guardian with a throwing spear – giving the warrior a mainhand ranged weapon to go with the warhorn or the guardian a warhorn would probably pretty much cover the paragon entirely, as much as can be in the GW2 system. Assassin, on the other hand – while ArenaNet keeps saying that they see the thief and assassin as separate, there are enough similarities that I don’t think it’s reasonably practical to have both in one game.
The dervish and ritualist, however, both have styles that aren’t really currently available
I agree that the Paragons and Assassins are pretty much gone. I don’t see how they could be modified or made distinctively different than warriors and thieves respectively. To much of Paras and Sins have been absorbed into the new classes.
I could see the Dervishes easily coming back. They could be a third warrior class. With the gods having abandoned them, they could pull their magic from another source but primarily be boon/enchantment based. I think they would be hardened and changed by the devastation that is Palawa Joko in Elona. They would no longer care for the gods and maybe even have animosity for them leaving. I could see new mechanics made for them as warrior class instead of an adventurer class.
The Ritualist, I believe, would be another easy class to generate. They wouldn’t have to be turret based as they were before. Their magic could be solely spirit/mist/ancestor based. I see necros as manipulating the undead corpses and corrupted spirits for their ends and the ritualists (as in GW1) could be manipulating the more benign spirits and magics stemming from the mists. Yes necros have minions, but I am sure it would not be that complicated to differentiate spirits from undead. As someone mentioned above. Turrets certainly do nothing to body block as spirits did. Maybe this would be part of their strength.
I think both Dervs and Rits would be easy enough to change through mechanics and lore. It certainly would not be unprecidented. The Mesmers are really nothing like they were in GW1. They were completely revamped. These two classes could be too.
If ArenaNet decides not to add any more professions, I believe that sub classes may appear. Also mentioned above we may just receive more skills/weapons/traits that allow the existing classes to have sub classes or specialty of themselves.
Dervs could be a warrior specialty.
Rits could be a necro specialty.
They may even have sub classes for all of them. I can see a some others.
Druids a Ranger specialty.
Paragon a Guardian specialty.
Chronomancer a Mesmer specialty.
If we get to go back to Elona and Cantha. How do you think the four expansion specific professions (Rit, Assassin, Paragon, Derv) will have changed to fit into GW2?
This is all purely speculative. Maybe none of them exist anymore. Who knows? I just would like to see what people come up with as it fits into the known lore we have of those two places in the last 250 years since GW1.
Priestess Rhie is a follower of Grenth, which means she is most likely fairly knowledgeable about the necromancer profession. So this would most likely point back to what Konig has stated about necromancy taking in some of the teachings of the ritualists.
I agree that Necros and Guardians have incorporated some of the Ritualists’ magic, however, Konig and I finally agreed that Draxynnic answered the question of whether or not Ritualists were there. He found a website (actually a vid) that confirms they were in Tyria along with the rest of the missing professions.
Draxynnic wrote:
Just found it, actually – it was one of the TowerTalk lore interviews:
http://www.wartower.de/artikel/artikel.php?id=682
About two thirds in. Don’t worry about the German – the interview is in English after the first minute or two.
Basically, though, the summary is a mix of what I said (there were people that knew the professions in Tyria, but the true masters were in Cantha and Elona) with the additional impact of the destruction of Lion’s Arch with Zhaitan’s rise – which was where most of the Tyrians that were trying to keep those professions alive in Tyria were located.
The Chosen
Mystic Forge
Second ever combination of various gold weapons. I was just getting rid of a bunch of golds hoping for some exotics. As all things are with the forge it was just dumb luck.
I know that Gunnar’s Hold is very active if you have a desire to switch. Good luck to you.
Ventari, not Verata.
I know who both are. I just wasn’t thinking. LOL Dumb mistake.
Larger party sizes for dungeons/instances/fractals.
According to the discussion page in the wiki, it is a bug and being looked at.
Good. I’m tired of a little dude in a speedo following me around.
I think that some Sylvari do opt out of the teachings of Verata and don’t join the Nightmare Court.
There is a discussion between two Sylvari in the grove where a Sylvari male talks about leaving all things Sylvari behind. I can’t remember the conversation verbatim, but a the Sylvari male talks about hating the dream and wanting to leave so he doesn’t have to deal with it. The female tells him the dream is good and he replies that the dream forces itself upon him and in effect is smothering him. She asks where he will go. He doesn’t know but knows he needs to get away.
That is the gist of the conversation. So I would say that they most certainly can form their own opinions out side those two places.
I think it will be interesting what Anet will do with centaurs in Elona if we ever get back there. They are such villains in Tyra how will Tyrian characters react if they are forced to deal with the centaurs in Elona?
Of course, the shaky truce to defeat Abaddon may have fallen by the wayside after the attack. Also, it might have grown stronger too in fighting Palawa Joko. Further, Palawa may have wiped them all out.
I just think it would make for an interesting dynamic if Tyrian characters were forced to look at Elonian centaurs as ‘good guys.’ This is just all speculation, of course.
Jade Maw is the name of the kraken in the fractal. It’s probably called Solid Ocean because it’s solidified water – which is explained by Dessa. I mean, they don’t go calling Urban Battlegrounds “Alternate Searing Fractal” (which is what it is – an alternate version of The Searing, the Searing itself being the disturbance that’s coming). It’s just how Anet named things – descriptive rather than definitive.
I agree with you. It’s pretty obvious they went for descriptions. I know that made sense to do, but do you think it would kill them to throw GW1 players a bone once in a while? We all know it’s a version of the Jade Sea in there. Jade Sea is just as descriptive as Solid Ocean. Anyone that steps on the thing knows it’s solid. I get a little annoyed that Anet seems to constantly want to avoid some GW1 references especially Canthan ones. Most of us loved that game. Come on Anet!
I guess I have a bit of a lot of those things. I don’t care for PvP, but I do like WvW and I mainly PvE. I like all aspects of the PvE world.
I like dungeons, fractals, and main story content. I always partake in the temporary content. I’m not married to any of them, however. I like them all. It depends on what I am in the mood for.
As far as characters go. I like what I consider the best looking armor. That is different for everyone. So if there is something I want, no matter how difficult it is to get, I will find a way. I want Meteorlogicus. I will have Meteorlogicus.
Having said that, I am in no hurry for any of it. I am not a speed player. I like enjoying the game and all it entails as far as exploration, personal stories, side quests, hearts, etc. It is fun for me to see what’s out there, not just get to level 80 and miss the show along the way.
Leah Rivera in her article on fractals said “These fractals are slices of the Mists, fragments of time that have been stabilized by the intrepid asura researcher Dessa. Some of these vignettes from history may be familiar to original Guild Wars players, while others will represent previously unseen events. "
Last night while fractal running, one of the people in my group said that these slices of the mist could be from any time; past, present or future. Is there anything out there that suggests that we could be seeing possible future situations? From what Leah said above it seems that these are only situations from the past. If there were any truth to the future scenario, that would skew some theories.
Also, has anyone ever said why they called it the Solid Ocean Fractal? Why didn’t they just call it the Jade Sea Fractal. Most people I know call it the Jade Maw. It is obviously the Jade Sea. So what if the actual characters in the game don’t know it is the Jade Sea? The the title is for the players benefit, not the characters.
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A distinct effort to discourage or downplay old paradigms in order to legitimize a highly unique, yet unprecedented, cultural shift in the narrative.
- The relative dismantling of human cultural distinctions like Elonian, Krytan, Ascalonian, etc, to a single stale culture which can only be described as mostly “white European.”
Good call. 250 years ago there was easy passage between Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. As shown in other posts, developers and Anet have stated that classes and peoples from all three areas found a presence in each one. It seems to me that not only human cultural distinctions have been dumbed down, so have classes/professions. To me, much of the uniqueness of the professions have blurred as have the human cultures.
The addition of mainstream MMO ideals which dilutes Guild Wars highly original background and story.
Preach! Guild Wars 1 was very distinctive and original in its various story lines and quests. You felt like you were discovering something new and wonderful. Each mission or task felt purposeful and urgent. It just doesn’t seem that way now. Each mission seems sort of “more of the same” to me. On top of that, most of the places that made those story lines unique are gone. Most places we knew are gone or destroyed. The dragons were not responsible for all of those changes. Why did they need to destroy The Temple of the Ages, The Granite Citadel, and several others? Why could they not have expanded on them and made them integral to today’s stories? Some of us would have enjoyed the continuity and nostalgia. Instead we are left feeling devoid of many of the things that made GW1 special.
- Removing the gods’ historical role both as the purveyors of magic, as well as the apex beings of power in Tyria, because of their close association to a single race(human) which would run counter to this new narrative.
- Literally asking a Guild Wars player to take a lot of what was known 250 years ago as mere folklore or myth which bears little resemblance to this new reality.
On this one, I think it is apparent that the gods will make a return in the future. Too much of a big deal has been made about them ‘leaving’ to not be an obvious clue as to their return. It is just my opinion, but their return will open up a whole other can of worms that the races will have to deal with.
As to the lore, I agree. As I said before, to much of the game we love was discarded. It left those of us going from GW1 to GW2 feeling as if it is no longer the world we got to know, instead of the world we knew being transformed by knowledge and time. I often play and wonder “what is this place?” Where is that magical land I knew from the first game?
I’ve seen mentioned in other threads that some believe that the DSD might be the dragon that gets us back to Cantha. Anyone know of any lore or evidence that would make that plausible? If so, it would open up other possibilities for what it’s minions would be called.
While I don’t disagree with much of what you said, I don’t believe that many have blinders on concerning the problems of the game. Many are just being patient in letting things get fixed. I see some of the same problems you do and I am certain the game company does too. I just have faith that these things will be corrected. There were many things wrong in GW1, but they always seemed to get fixed. Maybe not on my time table, but they happened.
jheryn.8390, if seems you still didn’t bother to understand what I was saying. Drama bomb indeed. Sorry I tried to re-explain reasonably, won’t bother anymore (btw, one cinematic? Try all EotN ones and at least 5 NF ones).
Either way, as I see it, drax settled the debate.
This is my definite last words to you because despite what you said, you obviously just can’t let anything go. Look at your last statement in parenthesis and the words preceding it. The whole post was just another dig and insult to me.
I tried to just drop it and I apologized to those in the thread for my part in our, yes OUR, bit of drama. All you have to say for yourself is above. Sad.
Again, I apologize to the people in this thread for this post to this person. I can guaranty you will not see me address him again even though I am certain he will respond to me. You cannot have friendly debate and polite disagreement with such a person, so I am done.
I don’t think anyone here believes at all that they are fully gone, written out, or anything of the sort. They were a major force behind the first game and it would be a terrible choice to completely remove them.
I wasn’t implying that anyone here thought the gods were gone for good. I was just stating my opinion. And you are right, I think it would be a horrible choice to not utilize them again.
I am hoping they are a little more interactive when they do resurface. Maybe more of their background will be revealed.
It might be possible. Feelings are funny and don’t follow a set of rules, so why not. So relationships, could happen I recon. But, there would be no halfer babies, as it has been stated that the races are not able to reproduce with one another. But babies are not essential for a relationship, so I can see relationships happening between the races.
Where was it stated that the races could not reproduce with one another? I would love to read that. I like that kind of stuff. I find it interesting.
It is too bad, though. I figured most could not inter-species, but I was hoping Norn and Humans could. It would be cool to see some 1/2 Norn running around.
I firmly believe that the gods will resurface in the future. To much has been made of the gods abandoning or withdrawing from Tyria. I can easily see them returning to help with a dragon (or other dire reason) in a future expansion. Of course they might be permanently gone for other developer reasons. Still it is a great and easy plot device to keep in the developers back pocket. It is still my guess that they will be back in one way or another.
I guess it would depend on your way of thinking. Humans often fall in love when an intimate relationship is not an option. They may be disabled or can’t for some other reason. So in those cases it is companionship and feelings only. So I don’t know why two peoples of the sentient races in GW2 (especially the main 5) couldn’t fall for each other.
Actually, we have been told outright that paragons at least came over to Tyria in enough numbers to have an influence (in the development of the guardian profession).
I’m pretty sure, now that I think on it, that it has actually been stated by ArenaNet that ritualists and dervishes came over. The issue is that the big ritualist and dervish schools remained in Cantha and Elona respectively. Ritualists and dervishes that came over to Tyria knew how to use the skills, but not necessarily to teach them. In turn, their students may only have learned a fraction of the full body of lore, and they would only be able to pass on what they themselves learned. With the central body of learning on these traditions having been cut off, such attrition of knowledge over the centuries could easily have lead to a situation where the professions no longer retained enough of their skill base to remain full professions in their own right, with what remained of their body of knowledge being absorbed into other professions.
Something similar also occurred with the assassin – some of their skills were adopted by thieves, but much of the body has been lost – unlike ritualists and dervishes, though, thieves were able to discover enough new skills to compensate.
I think that this all sounds completely plausible and makes great sense. I just wish that there was some in-game reference to these lost professions.
I think it also makes sense that some skills were adopted or adapted to fit into current professions. Again, it would be cool to have some acknowledgment of this. But I really like your explanation.
(Opting out of reading all the posts in depth because it turned into a drama bomb)
I think they could do some neat things that are more similar to ritualists with a Shaman-type character than what has been incorporated into Guardians/Necromancers. Shaman are still around in the game, so it seems plausible enough IMO.
My main issue would be that I don’t think I’d want a reworked Ritualist. I mained one for so long on GW1, and preferred healing more often than not… No dedicated healers in GW2 would kinda put me off, but who knows. That’s just me, not a huge fan of change lol.
LOL. You are right, it did turn into a drama bomb. I’m sorry I was involved. And sorry that you all had to endure it. I can’t believe I wasted my time with that.
I get what you are saying about rits. I was a spirit spammer. It was my main as well. Only I am curious to see what they would do with one. One of my favorite things was discovering what they did with the returning classes. I think I would be equally curious to see what they would do with any of the other classes that we haven’t seen. Even if they had evolved into something totally different than what they were.
But there were still heroes and they had impact on the game.
And I’m not disagreeing with this, nor did I ever. There were heroes, but we don’t know anything about who, what, how many, or what they did.
Again, it doesn’t matter if there was one or one for each campaign. The fact of the matter is that there was one hero that completed the Elona story line and EOTN storyline because the heroes attached themselves to one hero. The prophecies and factions campaign could have had every minor and major story line completed by a different hero. The fact remains is that PC’s played those heroes. It doesn’t matter if GW2 history never names that person(s) or not. Maybe he/she/they are an amalgamation of all the PC’s that played, the fact remains that each of us got to play the hero(es). We made the story lines happen, not an NPC.
So who is guessing now?
I didn’t know that theorizing based off of canon lore – and not mechanics – is “guessing.” I observed the difference in profession attitudes based on the continents a long time ago, and those observations are easily observable in GW1; and from those observations, I made a comparison and in turn, a theory. It’s not “guessing.”
I seriously think you should take time from the forum, given your incredibly rude sarcasm and now outright insults. You’ve yet to provide anything that’s actually lore – just mechanics that COULD be relevant to lore.
Again, you are the last person that should be critiquing anyone’s behavior. Your pompous superior attitude is prevalent in many posts. And not just on this thread. When people do not agree with you or question your take on lore, you go out of your way to argue with them and beat them down until they give up. And you call me rude? I’m not being rude, I’m just being reactionary to the way you argue everything and everyone that does not agree with your take on things. Particularly when you have to “theorize.” Your theories and conjectures are always better than others even though they are just theories. Theories are not proven and even to be a theory it has to be generally accepted as true and without question. Until you get a general consensus from all players and Anet, your “theories” are just guesses. So you don’t have theories, you have educated guesses based on information available. That’s not sarcasm, that is fact. Other people have them too. And it is just as plausible to base those guesses on mechanics which are part of lore as it is from any other source.
I don’t need to take a break from the forums, I have a polite disagreements or difference of opinions with others and enjoy their take on things. I enjoy thinking about their takes on matters that we don’t know. But I am never belittled and bulldogged by them as I an others are by you. But you never concede anything to anyone even when you could be wrong. You are always the first to correct everyone and you enjoy it. Many posts you have were simply to correct others even if they make wording mistakes but their intent was obvious. You told me what you think I need to do, now I will reply in kind. I think you need to not accuse anyone of anything until you take a good long look in the mirror and do a little self-evaluation. Because if you think you are just being knowledgeable, I am here to say that you are not. You are rude and condescending. And the name calling. I didn’t start it you did, along with foul language.
And to clarify, since you seem to constantly miss/forget it from my original post and all subsequent posts:
I’m not saying there were no ritualists, etc. in Tyria ever. I’m saying that we have no definitive proof that there were in large enough numbers to not only remain, but to be mentioned 250 years later.
I never missed or forgot a thing you said. I also never said you believed there were no ritualists in Tyria. You obviously want to make it out that I am missing something or forgetting what you said because I don’t agree with you. Not all of us hang on your every word or agree with your every take on lore. You are knowledgeable, I already gave you that, but we don’t have to concede to your every take on lore and possibility. You obviously don’t think you can ever be wrong and anyone who disagrees with you is.
One last comment. I would really be contrite and feel awful if I believed that I was sarcastic toward a person that didn’t have it coming. All foul language, name-calling and condescension started with you. Again, I was reactionary with any sarcasm. It is how I deal with people who are rude and arrogant. So if I was rude and sarcastic, it was only reaction in kind.
I notice that you didn’t say the developers could easily say "They were there and stayed. That would have totally screwed your argument if that were true wouldn’t it?
No I didn’t, because it was implied, sorry I thought you were intelligent enough to realize this. And no it doesn’t. It doesn’t affect my argument either way, because my entire point is that it can go either way – not the way you’re taking it in that you seem to think I’m saying they didn’t. Ever.
What I am intelligent enough to realize is that you intentionally left it out because it counters your argument that White Mantle were using some other magic or some new form of necromancy or some other guess you are trying to make. See your own reply above. Which is in no way lore. They were ritualists. R. I. T. U. A. L. I. S. T. S. Not new necros, not some other kind of spirit magic. Ritualists. I hate to keep repeating myself, but I think it doesn’t sink in with you. Maybe repetition will work. Maybe you need to play GW1 again to see that their skill bars are the same spells as the Cantha ritualists. In fact, they were called… …wait for it… …White Mantle Ritualist! Not White Mantle ‘Whatever Fits Into Konig Des Todes Dream World of Canon Lore.’
Again, yes I can say it. ArenaNet already wrote the lore but you cannot see the forest fore the trees. The lore was called Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. The lore was the game.
And yet, you’ve yet to show this lore that’s so definitive! And again, your sarcasm’s becoming insulting.
I don’t need to show it is definitive. The game itself and outline on the wiki does that for me. It shows the progression of a hero or heroes through the game. It wasn’t a dream progression for us all to play, the game is canon lore. And as far as sarcasm is concerned, yours started many posts back and was insulting from the get go. The superior attitude you have also is wearing thing. It is obvious in most posts you comment on that you enjoy correcting people and trying to demean them. So you are the last person to be critical of someone being sarcastic. And these aren’t just my feelings, several of my friends in a very large, very knowledgeable guild agree. Pompous was another word used for you. This isn’t sarcasm, this is the truth. People in glass houses… Oh and bad language used in your posts could also get you infracted if reported.
Wrong. I only used Koss when I had to do so. Same with Melonni and others. They were not always there completing all missions. He wasn’t there for several missions. Because I never took him. Just because he was an integral part of the story line, doesn’t mean he was the hero of it.
Pay attention to the cinematics. For example, the second Moddok Crevice cinematic. No matter who’s in your party – Dunkoro being the only required hero – Koss, Melonni, Zhed, and Tahlkora always appears.
Yes, they were there in THAT one. They were not always there when Dunkoro was the only hero required. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Pain_ I was paying attention to the cinematics. So you being condescending and telling me to “Pay attention” is good advice. For you.
In lore, those heroes are there until the end of the campaign. And I never said Koss was the hero, by the way. I merely said that we know for certain that he is always present.
Again, not always present. See above. And you are right, you did not say he was the hero. But you did say that he was always present. He attached himself to one hero, not multiple heroes and according to you he was involved with every step (though not true). So above when you say it could be several heroes completing different parts of the story line, this cannot be true. Koss didn’t skip around from hero to hero. That was my point. He attached himself to one person. We just all got to play that one person.
continued…
And I agree it could have been a different person for every single side story. Still it was one person according to story line that killed the big bad at the end of each campaign/expansion.
Turn it to “still it was one group of people according to story line” then you get exactly what I am saying.
That’s the whole issue of the PC. And you have absolutely nothing which implies that any of those “one person”s was a ritualist or dervish in Tyria.
I don’t have to. It could have been any profession or none. That doesn’t change the fact that Ritualists were there. Unless again you want to play revisionist history with the White Mantle and Peacekeepers and the Sunspears in the TotPK.
Ritualist would have made a much larger impression on Tyrian society than vague similarity in a few abilities of two different professions.
Not quite so, actually! If you look at how Necromancers acted between Tyria, Elona, and Cantha in GW1, you’d find that necromancers in Cantha were vastly different than those in Tyria and Elona. If you then add in Ritualists into the mix, you’ll find that Tyrian and Elonian necromancers appear like a mix of the two.
In Cantha, necromancers are viewed – in shortest descriptions – as balancers of life and death. Their primary job as necromancers is to keep the death counts “reasonable.” In Tyria and Elona, however, their job is that and a bit more: they’re to guide restless spirits in the world to peace, care for graves, and study the darker side of magic.
It’s the bit on restless spirits which mixes them to be like ritualists, who’s job is to typically communicate and guide spirits to a restful afterlife as well as using them to do other tasks. In other words, Tyrians and Elonians basically combined the Canthan necromancer and ritualist together.
Then slap in the progress necromancers had with adding in spectral skills (plus their Shadow Fiend minion and somewhat their Death Shroud), it seems all the more likely that ritualists have melded into necromancy, though losing much of their uniqueness, within Tyria.
ROTFL. To quote something someone said to me once, "means absolutely nothing to canon lore until ArenaNet – directly or via the game – makes a show that it does mean something. " So who is guessing now? Sounds to me like you are trying to make it fit your mold. I’ll repeat myself, because they seem similar, does not make it so. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. And you have no proof that is what has happened. Yes developers said some skills and abilities were incorporated into other professions but not hardcore specifics.
And no canon for the PC means no canon for “ritualists, assassins, paragons, and dervishes went to Tyria!” So long as the PC questions remain unanswered – and you can bet your shiny rear end it will remain so – Anet can easily say “they never went there” as much as they can say “they might never have went there” or “they went there but left” or even “the Order of Whispers censored all information on them, so no one but the descendants of them know that they were in Tyria!” or something even more of an asspull.
LOL. I notice that you didn’t say the developers could easily say "They were there and stayed. That would have totally screwed your argument if that were true wouldn’t it?
So I can say that in lore, there was one character who emerged as the hero in end game content.
No, technically, you cannot. You can say that’s how you perceive it, but you cannot say that’s how it is – since it’s a huge unknown with many possibilities, only ArenaNet can say it.
Again, yes I can say it. ArenaNet already wrote the lore but you cannot see the forest fore the trees. The lore was called Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, and Eye of the North. The lore was the game. I would think you would know that. You played them didn’t you?
What can be said is that the henchmen and heroes were present for every mission in which they were available to join the party story-wise. Even if you didn’t bring them along, Koss was with you from start to end except that bit where he got kidnapped – and the bit where he went to save the garden while Melonni went to save her home.
Wrong. I only used Koss when I had to do so. Same with Melonni and others. They were not always there completing all missions. He wasn’t there for several missions. Because I never took him. Just because he was an integral part of the story line, doesn’t mean he was the hero of it.
So yes, I think it is safe to say that PC’s had a huge impact on Lore. Because one and only one of them was the hero of each endgame and side quest.
As I said, there’s implication for three heroes, minimum. We got canonical source for this. Thing is, we don’t know how far those three heroes go – just to a certain degree. And its intentionally made so. You’re so certain of yourself, but developers – John Stumme among them – said that it’s intentionally done so that it seems like you’re the hero, but that there were other heroes that went through “similar things” as well.
I’m not disagreeing with this. Other heroes did go through similar things. But there were still heroes and they had impact on the game.
And in the end, you’re still left unsure how much influence a single hero held on the world, because the guy who killed the Lich Lord maybe, just maybe, may not be the same guy who killed Bonfaaz Burntfur, Galrath, Oberan, and the Eater of Souls – and there’s even more reason to doubt that the same guy killed Shiro Tagachi, Abaddon, and the Great Destroyer.
I have said this repeatedly in my first post, you just were reading what you wanted it to say not what it actually said. I said that there could be a different hero that completed every single task in every expansion/campaign. I said it more than once. I said it again on this post. You are enforcing my argument, not defeating it.
Even if you had a single character do all that, it doesn’t mean that’s so – that’s the whole problem with multiplayer online western RPGs.
I never said it did.
-snip bit on PC completing the tasks-
That’s a flawed argument because for me, it’s my PC; for you, its your PC. All PCs are effectively just a varied template for “blank heroes” – the thing is, we have no indication how many said blank heroes are.
I get your argument, but you’re just saying generic bullcrap (excuse the term) to ignore the entire purpose of asking the questions about the PC. It answers nothing in the end, as it’s just your typical developer response that tells you “this is your story.” In the end, you decide what happens in your own fanon with that… but that means there’s no canon for it.
Again, it doesn’t matter which PC it was. PC’s were the ones completing the story lines. It doesn’t matter who it was or when it was, each story line, side story, mission, and task were completed by a person or small group, 2 to 8 members depending on the place. 12 members in two cases. Anet has already written the canon lore for all areas and let us play it out. It may have run differently for every toon, but in the end of the story, NO MATTER WHO IT WAS, one person was hailed as the hero of each mission, etc. If you could read a Tyrian history book, it would say that “a hero saved Tyria from the great destroyer”. It would not say, “It is ambiguous as to what happened because we haven’t gotten difinitive clarification on history from a software company.” Anet already wrote the lore. In fact, they took a whole lot of development to make sure that story played out. You are fixated on whose character it was that did the completing when it doesn’t matter. The story line stands and it was a character that completed it.
So it isn’t me giving a line of BC or spouting generic lines. It is you that doesn’t want to acknowledge that the GW1 stories were portrayed by PC characters. I know I have to keep repeating this, but it doesn’t matter who played the character or which profession they were. A character started in pre-searing and killed the Undead lich at the end. A character started in Shing Jae and Killed Shiro. A character started in Chabek Village and went on to kill Abaddon. That is the lore. That is the cannon. You don’t need lore to have common sense.
continued…
Well part of what you said proves one of my points. If there were millions of PC’s then a ample percentages of them were Ritualists, Paragons, and Dervishes. So if we are talking millions of these PC’s, blaring evidence of their professions should be seen and they are not.
There’s two issues with your statement:
There’d be no ritualists, assassins, paragons, or dervishes going to help Tyria during the events of Prophecies, since those events happened before any known adventurers were going to and fro. We do know that there were Sunspears at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings issue, but that’s all. Though some certainly traveled north for Eye of the North, there’s no indication that such individuals would head to Kryta and the like except for War in Kryta which does make mention of mercenaries.
You are right that there were none during the Prophecies campaign, I’ll give you that. But by your own admission EOTN and War in Kryta happened after all three campaigns. There is to quote you, “zero, zip nada” proof that the other professions were not there. All classes had access to the HoM, not just Tyria professions. And since War in Kryta made it more than possible for all classes to have played a part it is idiotic to believe that they didn’t. You even admit that Sunspears were in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings and mention of mercenaries in War in Kryta. So let’s just gloss over that so we can say that they weren’t there? Please. And I’m sure that we can also gloss over the fact that the White Mantle and Peacekeepers had Ritualists, Dervishes and Paragons. They probably were not there either. When we were playing against them it was probably all just a dream. So I should just say, “Sure, they didn’t exist at all in Tyria.” They did exist; they are part of lore.
However, the thing is, once more, we have no indication for the number of PCs that are to canon lore. Zero, zip nada. So saying “there were millions of players who played ritualists/assassins/paragons/dervishes in Prophecies content” means absolutely nothing to canon lore until ArenaNet – directly or via the game – makes a show that it does mean something. And all we have on this matter is three things:
- A lot of assassins raided the Underworld – but this holds no ties to continental Tyria.
- A lot of adventurers went into the Mists from Temple of the Ages – but this holds no ties to non-Prophecies professions.
- The Young Heroes of Tyria gives indication (but not proof) of three heroes for the main campaigns – but this only works against you, in that there’d be no ritualist/assassin/paragon/dervishes for Prophecies (so you’d be left with arguing for War in Kryta).
So in the end, you just simply cannot state that there were without a doubt ritualists, etc. in Tyria. You just simply can’t.
Actually I simply can. There are many reasons why.
1. If I made it seem or even if I incorrectly made it seem like there were dervishes, paragons, and ritualists during prophecies I stand corrected. That is not what I meant, however. I meant that there is more than a small amount of evidence that they were in Tyria and more than likely Kryta. There are transports between Kamadan and Kaineng Center dude to Lion’s Arch dude. Were ritualists, dervishes, and paragons forbidden to travel to LA to make your lore line up the way you like it? It’s common sense. There was easy travel between these places. Anet doesn’t have to write it into “canon lore” to make it common sense that those people were in kryta or not. Whether they were PC’s or not. They were there. Accept it.
2. The millions number came from your post, not mine.
3. War in Kryta, see above.
4. EOTN, see above.
5. White Mantle and Peacekeepers had Rits. That is a fact not conjecture. So yes I can say that there were Rits in Tyria. I simply can.
continued…
I did not say that those “big bads” weren’t disposed of, nor did I say the player characters held no impact.
What I meant was who killed Khilbron, Shiro, etc.? How many of those PC heroes exist in canon? Who did all those side quests? We don’t know these answers, and you cannot say that millions of human adventurers went and slew Shiro Tagachi at one time, seeing how there was millions of players of the game. Those events happened, but we don’t know by whom? Will canon lore say it was one hero and never mention a name, gender, profession, or nationality? Will canon lore say it was 3 heroes (one per continent), each never given a name, gender, or profession? Or was the PCs just random adventurers and the ones who killed Khilbron and whatnot in canon is Devona and co.? And then, what about the minor villains? Who was it that killed Galrath, Verata, etc.?
That’s what I meant by not knowing the extent of the millions of PCs’ influence on lore. Because we cannot say it was millions of heroes, it’s hard to point out just how many there were, and ArenaNet has left this unexplained for now.
Well part of what you said proves one of my points. If there were millions of PC’s then a ample percentages of them were Ritualists, Paragons, and Dervishes. So if we are talking millions of these PC’s, blaring evidence of their professions should be seen and they are not.
As far as scope of PC on lore. When you play the game, you play it as if your PC is the one completing the tasks at hand. Of course, my PC or yours isn’t the one ANet would pick as the hero behind all of those deeds, but the game is played as a single person game despite joining up with guildmates etc. If I was the leader of the group that had other PC’s in it, it was my toon, not the others that would be seen in the cut scene.
The story line of each game/expansion purports that a single character emerged as the hero. It doesn’t matter what their race/profession/gender was. Endgame always portrayed the toon of whoever was playing it as the hero of that campaign or expansion. The hero that killed the Undead Lich was one character or Eight if you count others in the group, not millions. So I can say that in lore, there was one character who emerged as the hero in end game content. It doesn’t matter who did side quest or whatever. Still one person would have emerged as the hero of each situation. It doesn’t matter who’s PC it was, the fact was, it was a single PC that got the credit for doing the job.
I am certain the hero of those situations will never be ‘revealed.’ There were to many players and professions to ever do that. I will say that if that hero is ever spoken about it will be something like “A hero emerged and put an end to the Undead Lich.” So yes, I think it is safe to say that PC’s had a huge impact on Lore. Because one and only one of them was the hero of each endgame and side quest.
As for the minor NPC’s. Same situation. When you get back from killing one of the NPC villians, you collect awards and acolades as if you were the one who did it. The NPC reward giver didn’t say, “You are the 359,091st person to kill Verata. Congratulations, here is your reward.” The story again, always has one person doing the deed. One person gets credit. And maybe it was multiples. My toon killed Verata and yours killed Abaddon. Someone else’s toon took Thunderhead Keep. It doesn’t matter, the story line always ends with one person doing the deed. It was never random. We all got to kill the bad guys, but in Lore according to the set up of each story progression it was one person. Doesn’t matter who that person was.
And I agree it could have been a different person for every single side story. Still it was one person according to story line that killed the big bad at the end of each campaign/expansion. One person emerged as the saving hero of _______. So there may be a different one for each campaign and there probably was. Still it was always a PC. So yes, again, PC’s had a large and definitive impact on lore. We know that. It is how the game was structured. In an earlier post you said we don’t know how much impact PC’s had on lore. We do know. A lot.
So back to the OT. Ritualist would have made a much larger impression on Tyrian society than vague similarity in a few abilities of two different professions.
And by the way, I am not knocking your knowledge on lore. You are the best lore guy I have ever seen here or elsewhere. My hat is off to you and I will bow to you in any matters of written lore out there. I am in awe of your knowledge. In matters of societal continuity, speculation, social norms and story structure, however; these ‘lost’ classes and their impacts would be much more evident even in Tyria after 250 years.
We cannot say one way or another how much influence the PCs hold on lore. Not until it’s stated. And all we got that attests to that is how GW1 PCs screwed over Temple of the Ages thanks to the adventurers (mostly assassins) “raiding” the Underworld’s treasures.
“All traces” are far from gone. The Necromancer seems to have taken in a bit of ritualist aspects, the whole Spectral skill chain for example along with Shades give a bit of Ritualist flavoring.
I don’t agree that we don’t know how much influence PC’s had upon lore. PC’s killed Abaddon. PC’s disposed of Shiro twice, although the second time it was mainly one person soloing while the rest stood in the corner and paid him/her later. PC’s killed the Lich and Armageddon Lords. PC’s destroyed the Great Destroyer. End game all called the PC’s hero’s. Savior’s of Elona, etc., etc., etc. PC’s had very big impact on GW lore. There were a heck of a lot of “big bads” PC disposed of. To say that they did not have impact on lore is unequivocally preposterous.
PC’s in lore should be no less exalted than Jora, Rurick, Gwen, Logan, Ritlock, or a host of other lore giants. Most of the time we were solving these so-called heroes’ problems.
Saying that all Derv’s, Rit’s, Assassins, and Paragon’s returned home after things concluded is equally ridiculous. Look at our world, peoples of all kinds, professions, religions, and races are spread across the globe. There are almost no places left on earth where this is not true.
As far as skills go, I can almost accept what you have posted here. What makes it completely hard to accept is that despite 250 years, we still have glass blowers, blacksmiths, cobblers, monks, apothecaries, wood carvers, and others still doing things as they did 250 years ago. I know you probably can come up with professions that have disappeared, but most of them have been replaced by something very similar or a play on a theme. Any person would believe there should be tales of mesmers whose magic was different than they are now. There should be statues of paragons helping save Tyria from far away lands. Paintings of dervishes and ritualists. So even if they are gone (which I find a little outlandish) there should still be ample and obvious evidence of their existence. There is not.
I’d say that the profession just never spread out of Cantha. Keep note that the ritualists in EotN and WiK were either norn – who were just communicating with the Spirits of the Wild, aka were Shamans – and the White Mantle were more or less wiped out (and never really explained how they became ritualist).
Also keep in mind something far more important: skills in GW1 were not always used to show the enemies’ profession in lore. That is to say – charr monks didn’t pray to the Five Gods, despite the lore behind monks being that they got their powers from the gods. Same with dervishes and the like. As such, the assassins, dervishes, ritualists, and paragons seen in Tyria during WiK/EotN were not actually those professions, but they were, visually, akin to those professions to the point where they could be mistaken for the two.
Ok, I can buy most of that, but the fact that we the players are also included in the people that are in Tyria etc., and are part of the lore, certainly not all of the rit heroes that came to Tyria were wiped out. Even 250 years passing wouldn’t have wiped all traces of Rits away. Not even a mention here and there? I’m not on board with that.
Interesting review. I think Guild Wars 2’s best years are ahead of it. Right now, what you see is a backbone of what was to come later. Remember in earlier Guild Wars 1, there was a whole lot less to do. There were no heroes at all. There were less challenging content. All these things take time to develop.
In fact, Guild Wars 1 isn’t one game….it’s 3 games and an expansion. In order to compare Guild Wars 2 to that you’d have to wait at least a couple of years.
So don’t be so fast to write the game off quite yet. There’ll be a lot of changes in the years to come.
I totally agree with this and would add that GW2 has much more content than GW1 had when it first started. So I am sure we are in for some amazing things in the future.
It’s much easier for me to say what I don’t like, which would be heavy armor. None of them appeal to me. I guess I would have to say that I like the Light Armor the best if I am pressed.
I think that sounds cool, but so many people have their favorite races and would cry “Why?” and “Foul!” if they excluded races. The idea sounds interesting, however.
I understand how all the professions we no longer see are missing except the ritualist. Their magic was different than all of the other magic. I know their profession was unique to Cantha, but there certainly were a lot of ritualists in Kryta/Tyra and EOTN.
It would be easy to say that they “died out” or “left”, but I would call foul on that. That type of magic, according to wiki is one of the oldest in Tyria. Also many White Mantle were ritualists. I’m just interested in everyone’s theories.
Okay, one last time, since I still don’t think you understand the arguments on the table:
Yes, RNG is categorically different, but I am in fact, reacting to what you said.
Not in a meaningful way. For example:
Without knowing how much money Anet needs to run the game and create new content, we can’t know if RNG is greedy or not.
I’ve already stated my position this on, as have others. If RNG is essentially or almost always greedy, it matters not whether this is necessary for Guild Wars 2 to stay afloat. The ends do not justify the means.
But it’s a question we should have some answer to before we start judging what is and isn’t greedy.
So you admit that calling Blizzard “very greedy” was wrong and a judgment you can’t make from your epistemological position?
Please, please, please everyone. Much of what all of you are saying is your opinion which you have every right to voice. In the end, however, they are just that; opinions.
Anet has the absolute right to structure their product in any way that they see fit. You either buy their product for what it is or you don’t.
Everyone here is voicing their opinions and that is good, but continually arguing your points is fruitless. Anet will take from this what they want.
In the end, Anet will do what is best for them and what they believe is the best for the continuance of Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t matter if any of us think that RNG is fair or not. They will continue with this until it is no longer good for them and the game.
If you do or do not like RNG, great. Voice your opinion on here and let it go knowing that you have given Anet your take on things. Arguing over all of this does no good however. It just makes all involved more frustrated.
I believe you all need to look at the game like a product. You either want it or not. I like Coca Cola products much more than I do Pepsi products. That doesn’t mean that I am writing to Pepsi and telling them what they need to change about their products to make it better for me. Either buy the product and accept it for what it is or not.
5. What happened to the various different undead? Hell Hound, Necrid Horsemen, Ghouls, Bone Dragons, Executioners
Wiped out when the first Orrian undead were taken care of.
This is probably the only one I don’t agree with. They may have been wiped out in Tyria, but they should still be crawling all over Orr. Orr, I am sure had horsemen, dogs, clerics, etc. Maybe the clerics and executioners could be now known as shamans/priests and abominations, but the horsemen and hell hounds should still be there.
One reasonably common theory is that the Vizier may have selectively grabbed what he thought would be the most powerful undead for his force – including the dragons, cavalry, and Orr’s standing army in general. This would also explain why Zhaitan’s army seems to have so little in the way of conventional soldiery (you also don’t see any archers in Zhaitan’s army but Khilbron’s was full of them, for instance).
Ok, I can buy this, but completely wiped out without running into ANY in Orr? I’m not quite buying that. The Vizier surely would have picked up one of the undead giants too would he not. I’m not complaining, it just seems to be a little inconsistent. I think maybe developers were a little more worried about they types of undead they needed in Orr rather than continuity with undead in GW1.
I’m with the theory that they were all taken out of Orr at the time, which seems to be the case. Because otherwise, we’d be seeing Bone Dragons too – but there’s a huge difference between the Bone Dragons (which lacked flesh more or less) and the dragon champions.
As to the giants: not all of the Risen in Orr are from Orr. Keep in mind that the Risen bring in shipments of corpses for corruption. And then there’s those like the corsairs who wandered into Orr after Khilbron was dead, taking refuge in the shattered islands.
I still can’t get on board with this one. The giant thing, yes. The all taken at one time thing, no. It seems more than unlikely that the common ones like ghouls and hell hounds would not still be there.
And if he is making undead giants, why isn’t he making more hell hounds and ghouls. I’m sure they could import dead ones of those as well.