Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

Suggestions were on an either or basis, they were proposed as different minions.

It wouldn’t add to DM/BM/SR tankiness, which is built on by every single trait taken in the tree. Soul Marks, Vital Persistence, and Foot in the Grave are all defensive traits, and Gluttony, Last Gasp, and Strength of Undeath are also all defensive boosts. Reaper would lose all of these to gain access to “Rise!” which would be based on a tradeoff. Reaper MM would absolutely be less tanky than SR.

Did you suggest suggestion A? Yes. And did you suggest suggestion B? Yes. That’s why I put an “and.” Not because I was making them a combined one suggestion. I’ll admit to a few of my mistakes about what is defensive. To me Foot in the Grave is worthless on a MM build because of all the stun spam that breaks right through it and your actual is defense is working whether you are on the ground or not.

15% reduced damage from chilled foes + gaining health from gs (Death Spiral + Death’s Charge + Soul Spiral = mad healing) + Stability uptime + either of your suggestions are just as tanky as anything in SR. Healing gets even more crazy if you are playing with a Boon Share build around you, then you could forget GS and instead heal and gain LF from Blighter’s boon + Chilling Force. Everything is just a trade-off. Do you want toughness or damage reduction? Do you want to gain more LF from staff or from any hits on Chilled targets.

Please get rid of that stupid rifle.

Bhawb.7408:

meow one twenty.4376:

As opposed to your suggestions of reducing damage per minion and minions absorbing attacks that actually hit you?

1) It was either or, you wouldn’t have both
2) My suggestion wouldn’t do anything for DM/BM/SR because you’d have to use Reaper trait line
3) It wouldn’t be a flat buff unlike your idea, they would have to give up one of their minions to do this, which would hurt their damage and utility even further, for defense that wouldn’t really benefit them much
4) That build is only strong in small fights, and Rise! doesn’t do nearly as much in smaller fights

Are you talking about my “and?” You suggested two things, suggestion A and suggestion B… And how exactly would neither add to MM’s tankiness? Only Last Gasp and Strength of Undeath have defensive attributes in SR, meanwhile Reaper has healing on GS. Just a trade-off.

What I would really like is for Death Nova to replace Necromantic Corruption to get rid of the stupid passive transfers that you can do while AFK. As for the buff, it makes them pick being selfish or being supportive, since MM’s are already decent at holding a point and they would get at least the same amount of mionions, (hopefully) minus 20 toughness from Flesh of the Master, it might be good to take the supportive option of blast finishers. Since making something a blast finisher doesn’t increase its damage I guess I don’t see it as a real buff to MM’s, but on the other hand it gives non MM’s reason to take Rise!

Bhawb.7408:

Death Nova is fine as is, and we really can’t afford to buff the DM/BM/SR tanky as balls US based minion build.

As opposed to your suggestions of reducing damage per minion and minions absorbing attacks that actually hit you?

Make Death Nova a minor trait and replace the Grand Master trait with “Death Nova now becomes a blast finisher.”

EremiteAngel.9765:

-snip-

You should probably take Protection out of that, I have 5 different Protection procs on my build (3 Wells, Spectral Armor, leaving Shroud).

And 100% what Bawb said. If they are going to do any core changes to Shroud it will need to be nerfed. I personally like having an upkeep skill, but I don’t like that the difference between starting a fight with zero Life Force and full Life Force is so significant.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Tristan.5678:

Do you like that we are not part of meta and you will get kicked just for being Necro in hardest that we have at the moment PVE content ? its not that hard but still necrom get instantly kicked?
Don’t you think we deserve same game experience as any other class and same attitude every other class has?
Screw this ARENA FIX NECROS

wow there my fellow necro
rein yourself in
pve is not really important
what is important is wvw and to a smaller extent, pvp.

i think we are in a good spot everywhere.
except minions. the looks i can still accept but the AI needs to be the same as ranger pets.

i cant understand why they cant use the ranger pet AI on our necro minions.

unless it is because necro minions are dead and dont have intelligence then well…okay…fine…

I should’ve given that one brains!

Chill is too good against Ele’s so don’t expect anything to change for the better.

Dawdler.8521:

meow one twenty.4376:

The Marks are decent-ish but against a good Mesmer none of them will hit.

If you build for facetanking a point 1v3 for any length of time, that particular Mesmer will be the least of your worries.

But granted if you aim to duel 1v1 there are other things to consider.

On my well bunker Necro I do not duel unless I am forced into it by defense, which against say a good Mesmer only mean delaying him the 30-60s needed for +1 to arrive and squish him in a second. If he happen to die before that he wasnt a good Mesmer, making your point irrelevant

How is the highest burst, Stunlock spamming, Stealth spamming, Blink spamming class the least of anyone’s concern when you are out numbered? The Retaliation punishes them for bursting you and you can use that time to either put more pressure or heal. A 1v1 is a complete waste of the build’s time unless you can kill them quickly, which means they arent that great. With this I want to be +1’d so that means my teammates +1 elsewhere, that and my healing is better the more people I can hit.

Dawdler.8521:

If this is for sPvP, the staff is better than axe/dagger. You get more hp regen, AoE condi transfer and the all important fear when you want to get people off downed mates.

For above post, DP vs FITG… DP is better IMO, even on a soldier build. Problem with FITG is that the stability remain incredibly short. Its not going to help much in combat and its not even long enough to help stomping. DP on the other hand will allow you ALOT more pressure in DS. Without FITG you can make up for it by using AoE suppression around downed (sometimes its good to get enemies coming to res, hehe). You’ll have the damage to kill fleeing zerkers that otherwise have a 100% chance to get away from a slow necro and your on point AoE with 5/4 become much stronger in group combat. Your 1v1 strength is also considerably improved, compared to a stability you’ll probably never really utilize (who cares if you get knocked around 10 times by an engie when you kill him easily anyway).

The Marks are decent-ish but against a good Mesmer none of them will hit. The Retaliation from Axe and constant Condi transfers + Blind will do better when you are stunlocked constantly. As for the AoE fear, it’s something but this is designed around getting smacked around up close and the Warhorn serves that purpose just as well.

Narrrz.7532:

We can’t let this die ~

Even Zhaitan would have a hard time bringing Axe back from the dead.

Link to build

Amulet: Soldier
Runes: Hoelbrak
Weapons: Dagger/Warhorn + Axe/Dagger
Sigils: Energy/Leeching + Generosity/Intelligence

Skills:

• Well of Blood
• Well of Suffering
• Well of Corruption (sub Plague Signet)
• Spectral Armor
• Plague

Traits:

• Death Magic: Shrouded Removal – Deadly Strength – Unholy Sanctuary
• Blood Magic: Quickening Thirst – Banshee’s Wail – Vampiric Rituals
• Soul Reaping: Speed of Shadows – Vital Persistence – Death Perception

Mission Statement:
The goal of this build is to 1v1, 2v1, 3v1 your enemies on a point for as long as possible. Unlike other tanks you are vulnerable the entire time; there are no blocks, invulns, refelcts which means you take all the damage straight to your pretty little face.

How it Works:
Life Force is your everything. Spectral Armor is more for Life Force than it is for getting rid of Stunlock, because you will be Stunned so many times it doesn’t make a difference. Shroud puts you up to 2080 Toughness, drops Condi’s from you, boosts your DPS by about 30%, and best off, dropping Wells beforehand heals you up. Axe/Dagger is for generating Life Force, gaining Retaliation (which helps a lot in 3v1’s), and transferring Condi’s. Dagger/Warhorn is obviously your DPS and immob. Your Heal and utilities all grant Protection to make that Toughness even better.

You do “okay” sustained DPS but this is all about attrition. Don’t worry about using your interrupts for damaging skills, keep them to interrupt heals! To use your Heal skill you will have to break Line of Sight. The more people there are the more you heal and the more your Retaliation is a factor.

I really didn’t want to share this build because it has worked so well for me. Best of luck

Waffler.1257:

Lich does need a nerf, there’s literally nothing you can do against ranged auto-attacks that kill you if you get hit twice. Lich damage should be nerfed by probably 50%, and they definitely shouldn’t have stability since they can already kite with ranged attacks. Warrior rampage is fine, it’s honestly a l2p issue if you can’t deal with this. Work on timing your dodges and using soft cc and rampage becomes a joke, very easy to deal with.

Hahahahaha!

(please tell me this was a joke)

PowerBottom.5796:

meow one twenty.4376:

alain.1659:

meow one twenty.4376:

alain.1659:

Every kitten profession in the game have some kind of reflection and projectile buggering.

Ah, yes. Can’t forget those OP Necro reflects and blocks.

I am sorry, I can not hear you over the second life bar. Let me move a little… Oh crap, life bar again.

Seriously stop attacking. It is not about necros vs rangers or buffing rangers. It is about debugging them and giving a more skillful rework. I am perfectly aware that necro,ranger and engineer are not in a very good place those three are my favourite professions sadly.

You are doing far more attacking than I am. I’m just pointing out that Necros don’t actually have reflects, blocks, or projectile destruction. Heck, this isn’t even a complaint.

well yes, not every class has it, but many classes have it in AoE form…. It’s actually a valid concern: If a team is running a pewpew, some classes can just switch one trait (like mesmer from the blind to reflect) and they are immune to it. It’s not even a big risk, since even if it’s not a pewpew-ranger, reflect is still pretty kitten good against any other ranger build.

Oh I conpletely agree with you. Reflects nullify half the class and the fact that Mesmers are so abundant makes it even worse. I wish the best for Rangers, as long as the best doesn’s include the basic longbow spam the OP talks about.

alain.1659:

meow one twenty.4376:

alain.1659:

Every kitten profession in the game have some kind of reflection and projectile buggering.

Ah, yes. Can’t forget those OP Necro reflects and blocks.

I am sorry, I can not hear you over the second life bar. Let me move a little… Oh crap, life bar again.

Seriously stop attacking. It is not about necros vs rangers or buffing rangers. It is about debugging them and giving a more skillful rework. I am perfectly aware that necro,ranger and engineer are not in a very good place those three are my favourite professions sadly.

You are doing far more attacking than I am. I’m just pointing out that Necros don’t actually have reflects, blocks, or projectile destruction. Heck, this isn’t even a complaint.

alain.1659:

Every kitten profession in the game have some kind of reflection and projectile buggering.

Ah, yes. Can’t forget those OP Necro reflects and blocks.

With a stick while they sleep.

Morwath.9817:

Few thoughts:
-> Boon Corruption is much weaker feature than prepatch. It’s random now, which means no Fear chains on targets with Stability.
-> Condi Transfers are much weaker, since there are less condis around. No Shoutbow, no Terrormancers, no Cele Rifle Engies.
-> You can’t have all features you’ve mentioned above while playing Celestial: a) Signets and fast Might stacking; b) Wells and AoE cleave, c) ability to disengage with Flesh Wurm, d) Blood Magic.
-> I would like to mention that actualy Necro is pretty bad at disengaging while unfavoured (enemy gets +1) unless you play both Flesh Wurm and Plague. Which imho means you overvaluated how good Necro is in 1v1, since 1v1 leads often to +1 at one side.
-> Death Shroud is inferior compared to any escape mechanism while under focused fire, since a) you can’t benefit from AoE heals/regeneration, b) you’ve to take all incoming damage.
-> Contributing in larger fights require sacrifices (e.g. you’ve to pick Blood Magic instead of Spite(boon corruption,might stacking)/Curses(passive transfer, weakening shroud)/Soul Reaping (survi). Necro by deflaut is selfish class.

I think Necro is in a better state post-patch. Engi, Warrior, Guardian, and Thief CC is much less prominent and allows Necro to keep sustain up. Transfer Necro nearly hardcounters condi builds that don’t have cleanses (possibly why these builds aren’t meta), and does decent against other condition users. Rangers are much less of a thing, so getting hammered from across the map with no reflects or blocks is much less of a problem. With Mesmer burst and Ele power damage + burning spikes it looks like disengaging is harder for all classes, on the other hand Necros can stand on point longer with with Shroud and Plague.

Overall, I think the meta is covering up some of Necro’s inherent weaknesses.

Azure.8670:

Necro was based on Scream

More like Necro was based on Scary Movie’s Scream character. All the falling over fits our lack of stability perfectly.

Login.5102:

xDudisx.5914:

Any skill with a very high telegraphed and long cast time will end up like killshot, 100blades, Churning Earth. Impossible to land on duels against smart players.

……….

This. It will no be used successfully against skilled players, ever.

Compare and contrast

It could be a great teamfight opener from Stealth but with that huge choreographed attack you would have to be stupid to be hit otherwise.

StickerHappy.8052:

Morwath.9817:

blitzkrieg.2451:

Daishi.6027:

A:
Ele
Mes
Guard
Thief

B:
Warrior
Engie
Ranger

C:
Necro.

This being said I feel the gap between tiers are a lot closer than the segregation between tiers of previous metas. Everything regardless of spec has at least somewhat of a chance, and no major builds are 100% pushed out by either the nature of the meta or a hard counter..

So maybe A-, B, and C+?

Necro under ranger? Top team in NA carries a necro and necros with cele signets absolutely much more useful (even power necro is lol) in teams than a ranger ever will be.

Please, ranger is definitely at the bottom of the tier list right now , no matter what list you make.

Abjured has Nos and he -only- play Necro, no matter how good or bad Necro is in certain meta. So using Abjured isn’t really good example… however Ranger is in much worse state for sure.

Did you watch the recent ESL? Saying Nos is the only necro there, you are completely mistaken (I know you’ll say “oh we are talking about Top NA”) But if you knew there are other necors beside Nos you wouldn’t have pointed that out.

That’s not what he said.

nearlight.3064:

meow one twenty.4376:

Getting a point and waiting for team rotations are not reasons why a class is better at 1v1 than another class. It looks like you confused CC with condi for some reason, and relying on, “enough Life Force,” as an argument means that the outcome of a fight is predetermined by your amount of Life Force prior to the fight.

Well yeah it kind of is. Thats why you don’t go in to 1v1s with no life force unless its something like a warrior where locust swarm and SA will build it very fast.

Honestly just stop complaining about necromancer, all you pessimists are giving me anxiety. Its a strong class if you put the time into learning it really well.

In fact, everyone moaning about how kittenty they think our class is, is the reason everyone thinks that. Try being more positive and you’ll realize that the necro is a great class. And finally, rotations in pvp mean so much more than the viability of the build you can play. Nos was able to win while playing MM necro and helseth was able to destroy salt playing a settlers bunker mesmer. 1v1 viability is also secondary to ROTATIONS/

tl;dr Necro is great, pessimism sucks. Rotations> everything else in conquest.

If you are getting anxious step away from the forum for a bit. Anxiety sucks :P.

nekretaal offered a very clear and concise argument that, “If the necromancer has no scaling defense or useful support for a team fight, it should be the strongest pure fighter, able to 1v1 anybody”

You offered the opinion that Necro’s are arguably the best 1v1 class, and he offered 5 types of classes/builds that counter Necro in 1v1. In my post I pointed out why your most recent counterargument was irrelevant:

- Points in Conquest do not directly constitute a 1v1 win, and now I can add that team rotations are not only irrelevant to 1v1s but defeats the whole point of discussing them.
- nekretaal didnt mention beating condi classes.
- Beating CC classes are still a problem.
- Your logic mistakes “Necros with abundant Life Force are deadly” for “Necros are deadly” (tricky subject, but not something to be brought up as a counterargument to nekretaal’s post.)

nearlight.3064:

nekretaal.6485:

Not even close. The Necromancer has trouble with

(1) anybody on any class that can kite
(2) shatter mesmers
(3) power Rangers
(4) Anybody on any class with stealth or that can reset fights
(5) Hammer Warriors, & everybody else with a lot of CC

That’s basically everybody but engineers.

I also find that the raw amount of conditions that condispecs can put out, quickly overrides condition transfers.

If you have enough life force you can win against all of those. A ranger can’t kite you without giving up the point, and on most maps you can LoS them without giving up the point 1v1. Thieves only win if they’re really good and can reset fights, but they shouldnt have enough time to bring you down in a 1v1 when your team is properly rotating. Mesmer’s are tough but you can AoE down the clones and pressure them hard.

And you definetly have enough condi transfers to beat condi classes 1v1, since there are no condi classes with good condi output that have immense amounts of condi clear. If you can kill a trap ranger or a PU mesmer or a burn guard as a necromancer, you’re just doing it wrong.

Getting a point and waiting for team rotations are not reasons why a class is better at 1v1 than another class. It looks like you confused CC with condi for some reason, and relying on, “enough Life Force,” as an argument means that the outcome of a fight is predetermined by your amount of Life Force prior to the fight.

How are we ever supposed to get a 2 second cast time Elite off against a Mesmer? I would be much happier with at least one of three things:

- Stability on use.
- Reduced cast time.
- Daze instead of Stun.

Just throwing this out there because Wynaut?

Axe 2 – Remove Life Force generation, decrease cast time to raise DPS by 30%.
Axe 1 – Add scaling Life Force generation, the longer you use Axe 1 the more Life Force you generate per hit. This could make up for the huge loss in DPS we get when we use Axe 1.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

Necro is obviously OP and needs to be nerfed. This makes mesmer burst seems like it tickles and is definately NOT due to the huge power creep this patch produced.

+1

Let’s nerf Axe.

Sagat.3285:

Misguided.5139:

An elite well sounds great, but not Plague. Let them make something else.

It will never happen,future elites will come with a new skill category for the class,necro already has wells so no elite well unless they do a similar pattern for every class outside of elite specs.

Exactly. It’s not like they are going to change the only usable Elite we currrently have.

I think it’s horribly lame that all that happens in Plague is you turn on Blind and run around for 20 seconds. No other button pressing required. Sure it’s useful, but it’s far from dynamic.

Axelwarrior.9084:

I really liked the elite suggestion of a forum member a while ago:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Unruly-Death-Silly-Elite-Idea/first#post5247848

:D

I actually like the idea of Plague as a Well but it would have to change. Thematically you could say you are using your body to channel a well around yourself. Here are the things to consider:

- Would need a cast time, like all Wells. No more stomping mid-cast.
- Traitable to have lower cooldown
- Traitable to heal on every hit
- Traitable to spam Protection in radius.
- No longer transform, so Moa shouldn’t end it

I think it could be pretty easy to work in. Lower duration, reduce Stability, and there you have a pretty decent and useful Elite. In large groups you can heal yourself and do moderate damage, reduce the effectiveness of Rampage, and give team support with protection.

IMO the reason they won’t allow Necro to be OP from a damage perspective is because all the high DPS involves 1111111111. Dagger, DS, Lich, all use autospam for their DPS, so to let Necros out DPS other classes while we simply press 1 would be embarrasing for the company.

The problem is, balancing a class that is mostly forced to be bottom DPS is proving to be tricky… queue large second health bar and condi transfers. I don’t think there is much of an excuse for lack of stability though.

manveruppd.7601:

I’ve been wondering about the “heals and partially revives” phrasing in Transfusion and Life from Death. I always thought that when you healed allies it also affected downed allies, was I wrong? If you’re downed and an ele casts Cleansing Wave next to you, don’t you receive any healing too?

If so, what does “heals and partially revives” means? Does the “partiallly revives” portion of the trait functionality act in addition to the healing? So if I’m downed and someone uses Life From Death, will I receive 790HP in healing, and also be revived an additional 5% my downed health? Or does the “partially revives” overwrite the healing, and downed players only receive that portion, and not the healing?

Or have I had it wrong all along and you can’t be healed in downed state?

I would like some clarity on this too.

The need for stability isn’t unique to just rezzing. Of what we have now, how could we make them useful?

What about longer range teleport on Shroud 4 with Z-axis teleports? Or halving the cast time of Signet of Undeath? Ways to make reviving possible without actually pressing the “F” button could be great.

Brief overview of Necro’s downstate abilities:

- 25% increased damage while in downstate
- Revive 10% faster and cast Well of Blood when you begin reviving a teammate
- Exiting Shroud partially revives downed allies
- Shroud skill 4 teleports and partially revives downed allies
- Signet of Undeath revives up to three allies in 180 radius with 180 sec cooldown
- Downed Allies do not bleed out while within range

Currently three of the traits are fighting against the self-heal and Vampiric traits in the Blood Magic line. Signet of Undeath has the same main purpose as Warrior’s Battle Standard, but lacks the Might, Fury, Swiftness, Blast Finisher and 600 radius. What’s worth noting is with the rise of Rampage there is a lack of Battle Standards being used.

So, I have a couple questions for everyone…

1) Do you think there could be a unique purpose for Necros as Masters of Downstate?
2) How do you think traits or skills could change to make these abilities more useful?

How about 3 seconds of quickness when entering Shroud?

A bit more burning damage, but nothing like the huge bursts from other classes. Power damage benefits. Stomping benefits. Has counterplay in the form of boon Corruption.

All-in-all I think it is game changing enough to be a GM, but not game breaking at all. I know devs are currently designing around the “slow” Necro, but we deserve to be quick for at least 3 seconds.

Hi all

As we all know Necro lacks Blocks, Evades, and Invulns that all other classes have access to. I have an admittedly silly idea that will give Necros a type of Invuln beffiting the current Necro themes.

Elite Skill – Unruly Death
Skill Type – Corruption
Recharge – 75 seconds (traitable)
Duration – 2.5 seconds
Instant Cast
Description:

Temporarily gain invulnerability while entering downstate and lose all conditions. Gain downstate skills for the duration. This skill benefits from all downstate and Corruption traits. When the duration ends, return to previous health.

Naturally this is a Corruption skill, and since we can’t have two Corruption based Elites, Plague will have to change to Wells.

I could go on and on about how the June 23rd update is screwing us over, but I want to bring up a slightly different topic.

Obviously our position in sPvP is lackluster, and our WvW and PvE presence will be nearly useless, but there’s a small change that can be implemented to PvP to help a tiny bit. Reverting our starting Life Force can be a little push to help a lot in some cases. Honestly, it should be an obvious Quality of Life update to give us some starting Life Force, but in the case they don’t want us to immediately use our Shroud skills at the beginning of the match I have thematic a solution:

What’s more Necro than reviving yourself after a death? Not much. That’s why I think adding a baseline Life Force on Death ability should be implemented. This solves a couple problems on two different levels of play. In the sPvP side of things, it prevents us from being useless after a Death; if a good Thief ganks you after a spawn you have a small amount of Life Force (I’m thinking 20-30%) to work with that you might not be able to gain otherwise. On a completely different side, it would help new people gain Life Force while they figure out how Life Force gains work. It can be confusing to new people who don’t know what skills do what, and keep them from thinking the ability is useless. If a Quality of Life update isn’t our way, at least give us a Quality of Death update.

Counterarguments:
“Warriors don’t get adrenaline after dying” – and Necros don’t get Life Force for every type of attack.
“You shouldn’t be rewarded for dying” – WE ARE NECROS, DEAD THINGS ARE OUR THING.

Anyway,
This is my first post in this forum, so hello Necro community.