(edited by zaxon.6819)
the pu changes dont matter at all.. the on death traits getting nerfed from muliple angles was the big nerf. not only did it get a nerf to stacks/duration. but on top of that 3+ more ways to negate on death traits were added.. so it will be a good portion weaker,
this dosent really add counterplay to pu.. because noone will be blowing blocks aegis blind to avoid clone death as a plan.. but it will happen in a passive way during a fight.
squeaky wheel got the grease..
the changes are not biased.. necros didnt complain about thier own profession.. mesmers asked for their profession to be nerfed and tehy got it. necros didnt say minion master is a cornball spec i want it nerfed.. that would be dumb.
the difference between mesmer and another ai spec. is clones are all mesmer has. and they have 0 health any bunker can one shot almost all of the mesmer clones. and they fall over in the face of the enemy ai.. if a mesmer could have phantasms that followed you around like a minion master there would be an issue. go summon 3 clones and see how good they are at killing turrets. i understand that they are easier to bring back but any way you bring them back is using resources and the next batch die the same.
ya.. there is no reason we cant swap to the dead clones location. “the dead corpse makes a portal” whatever rpg crap you need to add to the tool tip.
the swap needs to work consistantly.. and also you cant just blow yourself up by blurring someone who has retaliation. what good is a move that hurts you more then it hurts them.
the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.
this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.
ya. torment is staying.. so pages and pages of complaints on this didnt change a thing about torment.. it just got us blanket nerfed. so next patch if we get any kind of buff i have some advice….. shuuuuu thekittenuuuuu…
it isnt the same people.. it is the mesmer community. some cry about one thing some cry about another. if the torment change isnt as fantastic as everyones psychic prediction then the mesmer communty just complained itself into a blanket nerf that didnt even touch the torment on auto attack instead of just waiting and testing. i think mesmers were just shocked that it was the only patch that we didnt get nerfed .. so we couldnt let that happen.
my post is for condi pu.. the ones people are complaining about that take no skill and are hard to kill. most specs that take pu and arent focused on stealth are in my opinion gimping themselves.. if you use minimal stealth and have a pistol.. you are more likely going to have a stronger spec dropping pu and taking pistol trait since it is your main source of condi/damage. at some point people take pu and do not even realize it isnt adding much to thier specs overall plan.
whhy does pu need protection /aegis at all when they spend 90 percent of a fight in stealth dodge rolling. if you cant live with a torch / decoy /massinvis / and alot of times even veil.. then you should not be playing the game at all. your only time out of stealth can be scepter blocking. but that just shows how bad and useless the spec is.
Wow
Much hyperbole
Such exaggerationSeriously, that entire paragraph is just one massive block of exaggeration and falsities. If you want to complain about PU, then go for it, but at least keep your complaints within the realm of sanity…
your response to my statment is the same amount of exaggeration. in a pu spec the only time you need to be out of steath is to block and wait for reveal buff to go away.
90 is obviously not an accurate percent(it was an intentional exaggeration).. but if i need to explain that to you then you need to get off the forums a tiny bit.
the condi pu mesmer does not add damage while out of stealth.. scepter auto attacking will cause you to lose more damage then you will add because it ends up producing scepter clones that are worthless. staff is your only source of added dps out of stealth.. and other then upping the physical damage from 5 to like 400 you are pretty much just another clone.
so being out of stealth dosent really help this fantastic build.. you may as well be hiding around the corner or in stealth dodge rolling. like i said.
whhy does pu need protection /aegis at all when they spend 90 percent of a fight in stealth dodge rolling. if you cant live with a torch / decoy /massinvis / and alot of times even veil.. then you should not be playing the game at all. your only time out of stealth can be scepter blocking. but that just shows how bad and useless the spec is.
nerfing because of qq is like negotiating with terrorists.. it is always a bad game plan and only leads to more qq.
so a 1/3ish damage loss on 1/3 of a trait. w/e..
who cares about the death trait when youu have TTORMENTT .. member the 20 pages of peopl crying about how op torment is. now people cant play pu because they lose 1 stack of bleed.. even though they get torment auto attack..
wow these forums.
“In my opinion, this was an epic Mesmer nerf for just about every build out there”
people like this are one of the big problems.. the dramatic blowhard end of the worlders that pop out in every situation. the sky is falling every day here in forum land.. i hope at some point they realize all these chicken littles are not a good source of information/feedback.
if you rely on clone death as your way to kill someone then you have a very bad game plan to start.
now here are questions.. do the clones themsleves need to be blinded for them not to apply conditions? or the mesmer? if you need to aoe blind them all then w/e that wont happen very often and im fine with that.
if the mesmer needs to be blind for the clones not to apply condions im fine with that also that means every passive clone that dies is a blind removal for me.
so now clone death traits proc aegis/block traits.. fine. the only way this will matter is if you have a channeled block like engi/warrior.. or whatever.. and if they are wasting that block for clone death im fine with that also.
one clone death= one aegis.. seems like an ok trade but almost impossible to plan that out in a fight where clone auto attacks are hitting at the same time clones are dieing.
the only thing that mattered to me was the flat nerf to bleed stacks/duration.
ya.. ill be happy to see pu gone.. im sure people will still play it.. because alot of the other specs dont have an easy mode option.. and you need to atleast have mesmer basics to play them.
pu got nerfed.. can the cry train stop now.
just like everyone said.. if you cry about the torment buff. you will get mesmer nerfed.. not torment itself taken away.. gj mesmer community.
because.. most people that play pu are just not good enough to not play without pu.. they will do everything they can to stay in stealth as much as they can manage to avoid fighitng. people that rely on pu to play will literally cut their damage in half to have pu,.
even with a full team of condi pu mesmers.. do you think you will see 25 stacks of torment on anyone??
a staff clones with ie will actually be able to put 25 stacks of bleed on a target.
so you need to look at what the weapons can do and then compare that to the other weapon.. not compare the conditions 1 for 1 when there is no way to stack them at the same rate.
staff ie buff is just as passive and just as strong.. but sheep hear helseth say something and they parrot it over and over again.
for some reason IE game play isnt passive and its a good buff because helseth uses it in 2h shatter..
and scepter buff is passive and op because helseth dosent use it in his spec.
as everyone has already said.. even with this buff condi pu will still be garbage for everything that isnt hotjoin trolling.
just have clones do 0 torment on thier auto attack.. and have first and second chain of the mesmers auto attack do 4 seconds each.
that way noone crys about passive game play.. you can only apply it with your own attack and the clones can still be there for death traits / shatters.
in reality.. what condition.. when stacked by 3 clones +you at the same time.. is weak enough to be added to the scepter.. the issue is anything x4 is strong.
4 cripple/weakness/vuln/chill/ whatever are all pretty strong x4
thats why staff works because it is randomized.
just give the scepter the same treatment and randomize 3 condis on aa 1.
chill torment cripple. or whatver works out best in balance.
watch the video.. ie buff =“this helps my spec, i think its good”
scepter change “this dosent help my spec, i think its bad”
the reason helseth made a big deal about the torment buff is because he is smart enough to take attention away from the ie buff that will end up in much stronger builds.
anything that benefited him.. he just mentions for a split second and says good then moves on. even though the ie buff is just as passive.. represents the same lack of skill game play as the scepter clone auto attack.
i think it is very low class for helseth to try to use any influence he has in game/mesmer community to try to sway future changes. people are quoting helseth over and over saying “helseths is one of the best mesmers and he says” as if that is a reason why something should or should not be changed with no facts or testing.
(edited by zaxon.6819)
helseths argument is..
if it buffs my spec = good.
if it buffs someone else= bad
i think you would up your damage alot more putting fury on phantasms instead of 1h sword trait. looks like a phantasm build. squeezing a point from the condi clear on heal into the last trait line that to reduce all clone summoning skills will help your damage also.
depends how good you are at fighting condi.. but for them ost part you can just duck your head into a fight lay 2 phants and auto attack from max range with greatsword. changing your utility to the mantra condi cleans will give you more cleansing power if you think you need it.
helseth wants the ie buff to his spec.. helseth dosent want pu buffed. people think helseth is better then them at mesmer so they blindly listen to him about the change.
Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it.
thing is.. ie will help helsets shatter build. he wont try to get that nerfed.
“now picture yourself fighting a pu build except you have 10 stacks of torment on you”
wow.. people say pretty crazy stuff on the forums.
if this buff goes through … and at any point in the future you end up with 10 stacks of torment on you fighting a pu mesmer.. you deserve to lose and you deserve to have every one of those torments.
(edited by zaxon.6819)
helseth said he likes it.. and other people cant really think for themselves
why are people saying that using your scepter to auto attack something is passive play.. is using your dagger to hit someone with a thief passive play? is scepter necro passive play? seems so wierd..
if you are talking about the clones also applying a 2 second torment.. you are still going to put out phantasms over scepter clones almost every time.. and you would still rather have staff clones then scepter clones..
it is good to give the mesmer a reason to auto attack with scepter.. because then they are not hiding invis. a person running sc/torch is running sc torch because they cant fight out of stealth. and they will not be standing auto attacking vs any person that is any good.
right now you would never dodge or auto attack with scepter.. because any scepter clone you put out is a loss of damage.
if you dodge and create a clone.. it targets the closest enemy. not your target.. in anything but dueling this is just going to be a buff to garbage spash damage.. most likly targeting a pet turret or minion. in the rare case that you waste your time dueling a pu mesmer.. this is a buff.. but for the most part the only thing that matters is the actual attack torment. not the clone torment.
if they want to go 1v1 a bunker on point the bunker can just stand still cutting the torment damage in half.. and as far as condi builds attacking you.. i dont think pu is the one that is going to break the game.
yes.. with how crappy clones are at targeting if you dodge roll them out.. the only clones that will most likely hit your target in a group situation are auto attack 3 clones.. it will only be an advantage in a 1v1 and even then any minion or pet will most likely get the target..
incase you dont understand.. clones target your closest enemy when you dodge roll.. not the person you are targeting..
so.. they will be putting 1 stack of torment on a random thing that is close to you.. ranger pet.. engi turret.. minion. any random person.
(edited by zaxon.6819)
i just think the meta will stay power shatter..and only people who annoy and troll hotjoin/wvw will care about this change.
i agree. i do agree scepter needs something.. but i think torment is overkill.
give it the same treatment staff gets. 3 random conditions is the best way to be sure you arent stacking any one thing 3×. every condition is pretty strong if you have 3 clones stacking it.. 3 cripples = perma cripple on any target. 3 vuln may be the least damaging and still helpful to the condi mesmer. perma weakness/chill/blind/ really all of them are op if you have 3 targets stacking it.
zenith i did not say greatsword phantasm i said greatsword clones..
ya.. i say get rid of pu.. and make it something more skillfull. i dont care if the torment buff stays or go.. but i think there is a problem with buffing and nerfing based on theory crafting without playtesting.
this stuff was so much smoother on wow.. when everyone can just hop on the test server and make an educated statment on the forums. not this nonsense.
edit: pretty much what im saying is every thing people are saying here is uneducated and speculation and should hold no weight at all.
(edited by zaxon.6819)
ya.. but helseth kinda just rants.. and mostly in a character that isnt even his personaliy. if you are going to take every word he says serious then im not sure you get the joke he is playing on you.. it is like you are being trolled by him.
i dont agree with the torment changes.. but to say auto attacking will be what they will do is kinda silly. why wouldnt they block? stun? iduelist? i guess channeling the confusion isnt super.. but almost every option they have on their skill bar is still better then thier auto attack. unless they run torch i guess which is purely defensive.
and with 2 greatsword clones and an iduelist up you can get 20+ stacks of bleed.. so is scepter even going to be as good as greatsword for condi?
the main reason we will be stuck with scepter is because we want pistol offhand.. thats why most pu dont matter,, because they use torch offhand which gimps thier damage by a ton.
yes.. what actually counts is if your version of bunker is relevant in comparison to the alternitives.. at any point would you say we need a mesmer bunker for this team. if that is not the case then you are really just trying to force a square peg into a round hole. so with enough effort a mesmer can be a very kittenty guardian. is that what the complaint about the patch notes is about?
prepare to have your mind blown.. this isnt a condi mesmer.
this is the opposite of a pu mesmer. it is a mesmer who is relying on reducing the cooldown between blocks and stalling while they are on cooldown. it is like the immortal mesmer kinda. and is in no way related to the conversation.
if this guy is going to stop blocking and stalling to 3 chain an auto attack with scepter he will defeat the whole purpose of his own build.
so im not sure how this post is relevant to a conversation about torment on auto attack chain being op.
my brother just rolled a mesmer.. i told him here is a pu build.. use this to get the basics down then we will move to a normal spec.
that is pretty much what its for.. once you can live without the crutch of pu you can play builds that actually help your team win a game.
no. first of all i think pu is a garbage spec and a waste of a slot on any team. it is worse at every thing a mesmer should be doing in a match. the only point of pu is training wheels for people who cant play mesmer yet. once you have any sort of basics down pu is just holding you back from doing an actual job in a fight.
it is a slower killer.. has no boon removal. it loses movement abilities to focus on condition.. loses damage potential to focus on stealth.
slow killing, slow moving, no utility. i mean play it if you want.. remove it or not it wont change my game.. i just hope if you enter a game you are on the enemy team not mine.
yes better duel servers are allowed.. but for the most part they dont let cancer duel. no pu turret engies minion mancer blah blah.
these forums are what is wrong with the mesmer community. so many people just say things with no facts at all.. "after patch a condi mesmer can hold a point without stalth
blah blah blah..
stop blindly listening to every word helseth says. im guessing the main reason he wants you to focus on the torment buff is because he dosent want you to focus on the IE buff that benefits his build. if you put up 3 scepter clones and 3 staff clones with ie you are thinking the scepter clones will be the top damage, seems very unlikely to me.
just remove pu.. that works for me .. i main a mesmer and pu is kind of embarrasing to the profession.
i think a good way of fixing the scepter auto attack is to do the mesmer thing to it.. have it do a random condition on attack. that way it has a chance of keeping up something good and a chance of just laying a cover condi.. anything you do on auto attack that 3 clones can also cast will be strong or crap.. but giving a mix of 3 things will mean that you will most likely keep 1 of them up if you have 3 clones out.. and you will have a semi usefull condi if you roll the dice bad.
the second hit of the aa can still be torment.. since it will only be on the caster not the clone.
i think random condis on the first hit of aa is an ok answer that will not leave the scepter op.. even if torment is one of those condis.. it will not be 100 percent up time cast by 3 clones.
the other random condis would be the question.. chill and weakness? not sure.. it would need to be done in a way that does not give 100 percent chance of keeping op condis on target.