Interesting if its true. I haven’t seen any official post with balance changes though, so don’t hold your breath. But if it’s true that means they reduced the cool downs of Tomes by 20%. It doesn’t solve some of the other issues such as the relatively small range/radius of the supportive Tome skills, weak healing on the Tome of Resolve and lack of offensive support on all the Tomes.
I still believe cool downs on Tomes should be removed and a page regeneration system would make Tomes more flexible. I feel like the developers are struggling with shoehorning the three different aspects of Tomes without making them too powerful. The result is that the little bit of extra support we can pump out with Tome of Resolve and Courage doesn’t give the guardian leverage to become a support class.
There is a major problem with FB, which is tomes. First, the tomes substitute your skill bar with the tome skill bar. In order for the tome to be stowed it must provide more damage or support than your weapon set and other tomes as well. This creates major competition over skill bar space, in which only the skill that does most damage or support will be utilized.
I believe the developers have given Tomes of Justice a certain level of damage in order to temporary replace your weapon. For example. Tome of Justice skill #1 Searing Spell does 905 damage plus 3 seconds of burning and #4 Scorched Aftermatch does 2,495 (x5) damage plus 2 seconds of bleeding and burning (x5). You make a good point with regards to Tome of Resolve & Tome of Courage though. We sacrifice all of our damage in order to use the supportive Tomes. We get little in return.
Second, the tomes skills themselves compete over their individual resource; pages. Only the skill dealing most damage or healing will end up being used.
I don’t really see this as a problem. You receive enough pages in order to use every Tome skill at least once. The best skills have cool downs so it’s not like you can only spam the best ones.
Numbers can and might be tweaked, but as things currently stand, there is little reason and too much risk to stow a tome (especially in PvP). And considering that we give up major sustain ability in taking FB over virtues, it does not look promising. Even if numbers are tweaked, it will end-up one skill spam from tome of justice and Celestial Avatar 2.0 with probably less support and healing, from the other two tomes.
Celestial Avatar (CA) is a beast though. It will be hard for Tomes to beat that. CA basically has everything: PBAOE Heal + Daze (#3), Massive pulsating AOE heal that grants insane damage boost (#4), AOE CC (#5), Condition Cleanse (#2) and quick PBAOE Heal Spam (#1).
Meanwhile Tome of Resolve has no PBAOE (ground targeted) heals, no pulsating heal for party to recognize (people are underestimating this one), no damage buffs to compensate for not being able to use a weapon, locked behind a huge cool down (no consistency), small radius and slow charge up time.
(edited by Noah.4756)
I played during stress test, firebrand felt super clunky and very squishy.
I really don’t understand this. I ran Seraph gear and didn’t feel squishy at all. The only time I died was when I tried to solo a bounty. But I’ve seen other people say it too. It’s weird.
I also played Firebrand during the stress test. I tried out two different builds: offensive DPS (Vipers) and defensive Support (Minstrel). I can’t say I had problems surviving. Open world isn’t exactly the pinnacle of hard content though.
Having permanent quickness felt really strong (especially with Stand your Ground) on a DPS build. Tome of Justice with Renewed Justice gives the Tome the ability to resume bursting on each new enemy. The Axe qualifies as a decent condition weapon. The only thing I didn’t like about it is that the Axe #3 doesn’t have a ground targeted animation like Ranger Axe #4 Path of Scars. Right now if I want to pull another add to my target I had to re-select my new target.
Using support with Tome of Resolve and Tome of Courage felt underwhelming. The Tomes didn’t bring anything I was already able to do with my core Guardian set up. I was able to survive Champions and large group of mobs with Mace+Shield / Staff. Once in a while I used Tome of Resolve #4 & #1 to burst heal myself but the heals are very dull and limited. No range, low radius, low coefficients. Tome of Courage is all right with the Legendary Lore trait that gives aegis, otherwise it’s just more of the same on a very long cool down.
The trait lines are pretty much straightforward. Grandmaster traits only have 1 viable option which is Loremaster. Stoic Demeanor doesn’t feel like a Grandmaster trait. Quickfire needs a slight boost in order to compete with Druid buffs.
I like the ammunition system on Mantra’s. The cone radius needs to go for supportive Mantra’s. This regards to Mantra of Potence, Mantra of Lore & Mantra of Liberation.
With these changes I believe Firebrand will have potential to become meta.
Firebrand’s are Mid-Range, Mid-Line Support. Core Guardians are Front-line support, and DH are straight up long-range to close ranger damage dealers.
I wish that was true. The staff is nerfed to 300 range, mace/axe being 130 range, mantra’s 300 cone, tome has no ground targeted heals. How is the Firebrand ever going to be reliably supporting anyone from even close range while players are scattered around in every game mode? Stacking used to be a thing back in the days where players piled up in dungeon corners, pirate shipping was ideal and the PvP meta consisted out of tanky celestial builds. Nowadays we have Social Awkwardness in Fractals, massive AOE condition/cc spam in PvP and for WvW the Firebrand doesn’t really offer anything we already could (stability, heals & condition removal).
All in all, this feels super rewarding if you ever played a Mercy in Overwatch or a WoW Priest, that sense of healing your allies and you bringing in all that HP juice goodness, you will love the firebrand!
To be honest, Druid feels way more like Mercy with their staff and offensive buffs. I suppose you can define the Firebrand as a priest but it distances itself from this archetype as it lacks sufficient access to its support Tomes.
2. Feedback and Criticisms
Switching and Activitating the tomes themselves feel very odd and clunky. The 1 second castime to use a tome and to another just doesn’t feel smooth.Not only that, I see: Archivist of Whispers- Minor Trait and Loremaster – Grandmaster trait MANDATORY, you need to make these baseline. Otherwise the cooldown is way too long and too short of usage for the essential skills to be of any use.
I agree with your criticism. Especially the two Grandmaster traits other than Loremaster feel lackluster.
3. Suggestions and Solutions.
Right now, it’s a kitten caster with a kitten core guardian. COMMIT, make a full amazing support caster in all it’s glory. Here’s how.With the tomes, make it function like Engineer tool kits in terms of toggling and switching/ or Ele attunements. Quick and easy to switch around, will be nice and smooth
“But wouldn’t that be OP? You get to use these skills all the time?”
NOPE! and here’s the catch, you see the cubes right beside the tomes?
MAKE THEM FUNCTION LIKE THIEVES INITIATIVE!!!!! So you have the smoothness and switching of Engineer kits, but make each skill of the tomes recharges be spent and used like Thief initiative skills.
This way, one it’s easier to balance with more control (I.E. how fast the cube pips recharge, and the cost for each tome skill) with the added benefit of feeling smooth to use for the player switching between each tome smoothly. And encourages a playstyle to enjoy the tome usage!
That’s how I initially thought the Tomes would work. No cool downs, initiative system. Tomes need to be the main mechanic of the Firebrand but now they feel as if they are a secondary tool.
4. Final thoughts
Firebrand is 90% the way there!!! It’s a really good spec, with a lot of intricacies and thought put into it.
I can see this competing with Druid in Raids, and highest Mid line Support in WvW Zergs.
It lacks offensive buffs to compete with Druid in raids. It doesn’t have any range to be Mid Line in WvW. But I like your suggestions for improvement.
I really hope that this way of thinking changes. Raids only really benefit from one druid. Grace of the Land is by far the most important buff they give, and one druid can stack it on a full raid since it affects up to 10 people. A second druid for that is redundant. Spirits are helpful but do not make or break dps, so 2 aren’t required. And with such a heavy condi dps meta, Empower is pointless to bring. It doesn’t affect condi damage; it only benefits power dps.
If it’s true that Druid offensive support is overrated than we would’ve already been seeing occurrences of secondary Tempest/Guardian/Revenant healers. I might have seen one Tempest healer at Matthias and Cairn but definitely not a Guardian or Revenant healer.
It’s not just offensive buffs that they lack. People simply do not trust the Guardian or Revenant to supply a consistent way to heal their group. The radius is too small, the skills are not always available, the casting times are slow. Whereas the Druid and Tempest can keep a constant large range stream of healing going.
With regards to offensive support abilities, the Druid Spirits are free damage buffs of 10% damage and 2 burn ticks. They do not require any work other than putting down the spirits. Stone Spirit gives everyone permanent protection. Spotter gives everyone a CHC increase of 7%. Glyph of empowerment gives 10% damage. The guardian’s options simply fall short. The new Quickfire Grandmaster trait competes with Loremaster and is worse than the Druid’s Sun Spirit. Signet share are worse than spirits/spotter and require an investment into the Radiance offensive trait line. Shattered Aegis requires Zeal offensive trait line. Quickness is already given by Chronomancer.
It’s true that Firebrand doesn’t have the same kind of direct dps-enhancing abilities as druid, but it has other huge benefits. The biggest difference is the insane amount of aegis. Aegis upkeep could do amazing things for raid groups, especially pugs. Keeping people alive and on their feet is a higher dps boost than anything a druid can do. With the tons of aegis, stability, and stun breaks, they’ll be able to do that much easier than a druid. For example, think about No Updrafts Gors – Aegis/stability upkeep means you don’t have to trust people do dodge his knockdown smash (thus greatly increasing dps), and spamable Aegis will protect against his CC phase, rather than relying on mes distorts (which I’ve seen get messed up a lot), meaning fewer people are likely to go down, which also increases dps.
Unfortunately, aegis has never played a role in the meta because of the large amount of random cluster damage you receive from enemy sources. It’s less reliable than distort imho. Aegis can also easily be replaced with distorts from Chronomancer or Dragonhunter’s F3 & Retreat. Both classes are already part of the PvE meta. It’s going to be very hard for the Firebrand to shake up the meta simply by giving aegis. Which is a real blow back for the Guardian class since aegis is an integral part of their play style. Pure of Heart trait works well though and is placed nicely in the Honor trait line. I was hoping to see the Firebrand receive the new barrier mechanic on blocking with aegis. That would’ve made aegis a key part of the Firebrand support build.
Then on top of all of that, aegis doesn’t need any healing power and guard passive healing can work well with just a little healing power, so you could run more dps-oriented gear (I’m thinking run something like Seraph’s). That also increases overall dps because a condi Firebrand could pull more dps than a condi Druid.
An offensive support Firebrand can dish out more DPS than a condition Druid (which has been heavily nerfed) but I’m pretty sure an offensive support Druid would still be more efficient to boost the DPS of the whole group.
And to get back to the post topic… My only complaint really is the CD on the Tome. I think mechanically it’s fine, but how the skills are now, it feels much more like something that should be easily and frequently swapped in and out. I’d love to see a shorter CD, or if they want to keep the CD as is, they should buff up the abilities to really make it feel like it’s powerful. Maybe have all of the skills affect 10 people rather than just 5.
I agree with you on this.
Firebrand’s Support Build
Mace & Shield + Staff as weapons is the most logical choice. Mace is our best healing weapon and Staff can be used for burst healing.The staff outclasses the mace in terms of healing in literally every way. The staff’s healing is burst healing, it has a higher hps (I’ve done the calculations, even before the buffs it had higher hps), and it has more range. This is especially true after the recent buffs to the staff. The mace’s healing is 100% sustained without any burst whatsoever, a lot of its healing just comes from regeneration, and the range limit on it makes it useless for healing allies.
I think that’s the problem with the Firebrand and base Guardian as a whole. The radius on most abilities are low and perhaps we do not get enough compensation for it (as is evident from meta class compositions). Mace skills are limited to 180 radius which covers as much as the front of a large hit box.
I think mace is fine when we’re talking about sustained healing even though I agree the coverage is poor and it doesn’t have a burst heal. The healing from the mace might not be better than staff but it can still provide heals of 1200 every 2 seconds from Faithful Strike and the regen + 250 heal from the symbol in combination with Writ of Persistence every second. When someone get’s low on health swapping to Staff works well to burst heal.
There is also a problem with the Regeneration boon which negatively impacts mace. It is overwritten/blocked by longer duration regeneration from a different source once it reaches the cap of 5 stacks. It doesn’t sufficiently take healing power into account. So let’s say the Mesmer has no healing power and spreads regeneration (Signet of Inspiration) that lasts 10 seconds it will overwrite the Guardian’s shorter regeneration boon of 9 seconds even though the regeneration boon from the healing support Guardian will heal for much more.
Another problem exists for might. Staff #4 Empower gives might but I believe it overwrites the one from PS Warriors which lasts longer.
(edited by Noah.4756)
My biggest concern with fb healing is the low coefficients on tome of resolve. I feel it should heal more for all the limitations it has (resources, cd of tomes, cds of chapters).
If we look at the two major heals from Tome of Resolve it looks like not only the coefficients are low, but also the base numbers.
- Tome of Resolve #4 Shining River: 1230 + (0.3 * 1600 HP) = 1710. For comparison, Celestial Avatar #4 can reach 8000+ (twice with Quickdraw) with the same Healing Power.
- Tome of Resolve #1 Desert Bloom: 730 + (0.42 * 1600 HP) = 1402. The numbers are almost equal to #4 Shining River. But since it doesn’t have a cool down it’s better.
Compared to Wings of Resolve: 3890 + (1.2 * 1600 HP) = 5810. Wings of Resolve even contains a leap while the Tome of Resolve heals are short ranged. Although higher base numbers and coefficients does not necessarily make the Firebrand a good healing support specialization. Consistency (due to cool downs), flexibility (no ground targeted heals) and lack of offensive support will force the Firebrand into a DPS role.
Can it fulfill a role in the PvE end-game meta? Maybe in WvW? I’ve seen a few threads out there which have tried to theorycraft a viable healing support build for Firebrand. Here’s my take on it:
Firebrand’s Support Build
Mace & Shield + Staff as weapons is the most logical choice. Mace is our best healing weapon and Staff can be used for burst healing. Hammer could be used instead of Staff to increase protection up-time since Firebrand doesn’t really pump out protection other than Tome of Courage.
Firebrand will most likely rely on Honor and Virtues. Honor contains boosts to mace, dodge heals and aegis heals. Virtues for AOE healing and Tome cooldowns. Virtues could possibly be replaced by Radiance for a more offense supportive build (Signet sharing & maybe renewing Tome of Justice if that’s going to be allowed).
Stat combo is Marshal’s (Major: Power/Healing Power, Minor: Precision/Condition Damage) or maybe Minstrel for improved quickness sharing.
Utilities: Receive the Light/Mantra of Solace (burst healing or quickness), Mantra of Potence, Signets (offensive support), shouts (defensive support), Feel My Wrath.
Healing Output
Majority of healing will come from mace auto-attack (1200), dodge (1600), Pure of Heart trait (1500) and Battle Presence (700). While Staff #4 (500 x4 + 1500), Receive the Light (1600 × 4) and Tome of Resolve can be used for burst healing. Most of the heals are short ranged and take time to activate which is a serious disadvantage of this build.
Defensive Support
Aegis is the main component of the defensive support. Mainly coming from weapons & Tome of Courage. Mantra of Solace and Retreat could also be used to spread Aegis. This works well together with Pure of Heart which heals for 1500 every time aegis get’s popped.
Offensive Support
- Quickness, Firebrand can keep up permanent quickness which is one of the main elements of their offensive support. Mantra of Potence also gives 5 stacks of might. With 100% boon duration you could keep both quickness and 5 stacks of might up.
- Quickfire Grandmaster Trait. This trait can best be compared to the Druids Sun Spirit. It applies Ashes of Just to players you apply quickness to (ICD of 10 seconds). Ashes of Just burns the target for 3 seconds. Even though Sun Spirit applies 2 stacks of burning of 3 seconds every 8 seconds. Unfortunately this Grandmaster trait also competes with a trait that’s more useful (Loremaster) so it’s probably not going to be used much.
- Tome of Justice. I’d expect this Tome to have more offensive support but it is currently mostly selfish. Only Skill #5 gives Ashes of Just to party members.
- Signets. Swapping out the Virtues specialization for Radiance allows you to apply signet passives to your team mates. Although these signets are relatively insignificant.
Competing with other classes
- In order to replace a magi druid, an active healing role, the Firebrand could potentially use this build to keep up with a similar level of healing. Even though there is limited range and higher response time. However, the druid gives a number of offensive buffs which is impossible for the guardian to go up against. While Grace of the Lands now works on 10 players, there’s still Spotter, Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment which only apply to 5 teammates. Sun Spirit is a much more reliable utility compared to Firebrand’s Quickfire trait. It applies double the burning in a shorter time frame. Quickfire also competes with Loremaster which is currently a must-have with the high cool downs on tomes and to keep the passives active. Bane Signet has potential but only lasts 8 seconds with a 25 seconds downtime. Protection up-time also seems a lot easier on Druid than on Firebrand as the Firebrand will be forced to take a Hammer and sacrifice the heals from Mace.
- We can provide plenty of quickness with the Firebrand. Although the Chronomancer can also give tons of CC, distorts and apply alacrity. So we will never completely replace them. We could possibly divide quickness sharing and both use a DPS build. The range on mantra’s makes it harder for the guardian to apply the quickness though. Chronomancer wells have a clear and distinct AOE on the ground so people know where to stand.
Firebrand Feedback
Give the guardian more offensive support to compete with Druid. For example, make Unscathed Contender apply to the whole party but reduce the percentage to 10%. This will allow an engaging way of defensive counter play by keeping up aegis to boost the offensive play of teammates.
Tome of Resolve feels rather underwhelming. Preferably the cool down should be reduced from 45 seconds to 35. The tome also suffers from long casting times and no ranged heals which is absolutely necessary for a reliable support class. Wings of Resolve is more effective than the Tome of Resolve right now.
Two of the Grandmaster traits are really, really weak. Loremaster will have my preference in most occasions. Rework the Grandmaster traits so that each of them serves a different tome. This allows the Firebrand to specialize into different types of roles: DPS, Healing or Support. For example, give the Tome of Resolve Grandmaster trait instant casting and ground targeting with reduced cool down on the Tome.
I foresee major problems applying quickness with a 300 range cone in front while at the same time trying to deal damage with a 130 range mace or axe. Taking a step back or being forced to stand on the opposite side in order to reliably apply quickness will be a DPS/Heal loss and I have my doubts whether it will work in practice.
During Guild Chat a couple of days ago one of the developers mentioned the following about Tomes:
“They get to choose the role they want based on the tome they go into.”
However, the most I could make out of the Firebrand during the demo weekend is a close combat condition class with tomes coming second place. Right now, tomes and mantra’s do not seem to make a significant impact on the build diversity of guardians. Two reasons why:
- Master of None. A major design flaw with the Firebrand is thinking that it can perform different roles within a group at the same time. In practice this is very limited. The limitations come from the stats on the gear and trait selections. If I use a condition DPS build I am not going to actively use Tome of Resolve which my companions can rely on. The Firebrand grandmaster traits should be focused on strengthening these different roles and empower each tome depending on the role you pick. Just like what was done to the Holosmith & Daredevil grandmaster traits. This way you put more focus on the individual tomes and less on forcing Firebrand to be everything at once (which will never work from a support perspective). Each grandmaster trait should severely reduce cooldown and add extra pages while adding a unique mechanic related to the tome.
- Flexibility. The developers have put a huge skill cap on tomes and mantra’s by adding high cool downs on tomes and short range on mantra’s. I do agree with the developers it does give you a distinctive feel you’re playing a heavy class. However, the rewards and effectiveness of these restrictions make tomes and mantra’s too niche.
1. Tomes: The reason nobody used the tomes in the first place was because of the high cool down and short duration. The implementation of the tomes has barely changed from it’s original functionality other than the fact we can now use all tomes at the same time. The developers have managed to put in some interesting new mechanics such as the page system. Unfortunately, it feels like they made the same mistake as with the Revenant energy bar by putting in too many restrictions limiting active play. I see the possibility for a really fun synergy between Tome of Courage (preventing damage) & Tome of Resolve (resolving damage) but the synergy between the two is lost because of the cool downs. Once both tomes are used the guardian is limited in their ability to fulfill a supportive role.
2. Mantra’s: I really like the way the ammo system was done for mantra’s. It rewards active play and paying attention on how often you should use your mantra. I really dislike the short range. It won’t work. Support skills simply need flexibility due to the volatile nature of emergency situations.
I appreciate your efforts in defending Firebrand as a healing build but as someone who regularly plays Druid I feel like you’re slightly underselling the Druid.
First, let’s go over the main heal, Mace autoattack. The full chain completes in roughly 3.26 seconds, and heals 1706 hp. Let’s break down how other heals compare:
Druid’s Solar Beam heals 450hp every 1.35 seconds. Multiplied by 3, that is 1350hp every 4.05 seconds, less heals/per second despite a longer duration.
Solar beam has 1200 range and therefore is much more flexible. Mace requires both the Guardian and their party to stand on top of each other and the boss in order to be effective. That means the guardian can’t heal anyone with the mace if party members are located away from the boss. Good luck healing people at Matthias or during high level fractals with Social Awkwardness. Same goes for the Tome of Resolve. It doesn’t have any ground target heals and it requires everyone to stand nearby the guardian.
As for passive heals, Traited Virtues will give us a shareable Virtue of Resolve. Each second it heals 328 hp and increases endurance regen by 15%. Soothing Mist heals for 315 hp each second., while traited Soothing Mist heals 435 hp per second, so let’s assume they are traited to share Auras instead. Druid, do not have a reliable passive heal.
Druids do have passive heal. Warhorn #5 pumps infinite regeneration that can overwrite any other source of regeneration. They can also put up a Spirit of Nature which heals 5 targets for 1 minute and can be sacrificed to revive teammates.
Geyser can heal 7989 hp and partially revives every 20 seconds, Bow of Truth can heal 10,314 hp every 30 seconds, with additional ammunition for emergency clutch situations. Both skills require allies to stay in an aoe for 4 seconds, and are overall similar in capability. As for Druid, yet again they come out behind, with Ancestral Grace healing only 4237 hp every 18 seconds.
Ancestral Grace is mostly used in combination with the water field from Sublime Conversion or the healing trap. Also when someone is in trouble you are able to reach your target simply by clicking 3 on them. Unfortunately the Firebrand only has one water field which I don’t think they can blast themselves. Even then they first have to run up to their target before it’s too late. Druid Staff is way more flexible than the Guardian staff or mace combined.
Druid’s Glyph of Rejuvenation heals 6862 hp every 20 second
You forgot to add the Seed of Life which heals an additional 1500 (plus blinds & removes conditions). Which also works on all the other glyphs.
What’s important to keep in mind is that Tome of Healing isn’t meant to be a direct source of healing like Celestial Avatar is.
I agree. Since we have Tome of Courage we should be able to prevent initial damage. Something a druid or tempest can’t achieve. But then there’s the problem that the Tome of Courage and the Tome of Healing can both be on cool down before either one is even close to being recharged. This is one of the two main flaws why Firebrand will not be a reliable support class.
The other flaw is the short range. Two of the main healing components of the druid is staff #3 and CA #3. Both these skills have ground targeting and allow to reach your teammates within a second. A Firebrand would have to walk up to their target, open up their tome (0.75 seconds) while casting tome #4 (another 0.75 seconds). The Firebrand will have a very hard time to save teammates from emergency situations.
So why not just use Tempest for pure healing? Why not just use Druid for buffs? Simple: Boons. With the addition of Firebrand, we exceed the Quickness sharing capabilities of Chronomancer, we gain more consistent methods of applying Aegis to allies, and tons of stability.
I’m still missing the comparison to Druid buffs though. Druids have spotter, GotL and spirits. I agree with the rest of your statements and it does give a nice positive view on the Firebrand that allows for interesting discussions on Firebrand healing viability.
Lets make a constructive thread discussion how tomes could be improved.
Here’s my opinion.
- All Tomes take 1/2 second to cast.
- Tomes have no cooldown.
- Pages are shared between all tomes – by default you get 5, traited 8 – if you use tome skill #1 you lose 1 page, if you switch to other tome, you still have 4 pages.
- Tome skill #1 – 1 page, Tome skill #2 – 2 pages, Tome skill #3 – 3 pages, etc.
- Tome pages regen – 1 page in 1 second.
I agree with your suggestion purely as someone who has spend many hours playing supportive roles in fractals, raids & WvW.
The problem with the current version of tomes is that it’s mostly going to be a DPS spec with the ability to provide quickness. Firebrand can do decent DPS by using the tome (of justice) every once in a while to do a DPS burst. While the tome is down the Firebrand can fill the downtime gap with DPS from weapon and utility skills.
However, when it comes to fulfill the role of main support it becomes more complicated. Too much downtime means that the Firebrand won’t be able to reliably assist someone when they need heals/defensive abilities. For example, the Druid is able to fully heal a party in Celestial Avatar (CA) by using #3 & #4. During the short downtime of CA the Druid still has the ability to heal others by using glyphs and staff #5+#3 or staff auto-attack. This is where I think Firebrand is somewhat limited:
1. The downtime of Tome of Resolve is at best 32 seconds. That means the guardian needs to fill a huge gap with other supportive abilities. The Firebrand will have to rely on Mace+Focus & Staff with the mantra heal and signet heal elite as gap fillers. The Firebrand’s weapons are nowhere near as close to being useful as the Druid’s staff & warhorn for active support. Mainly because it doesn’t provide a lot of active healing. Staff #4 Might negatively interferes with that of the PS Warrior and mace heals can only be applied on the enemy target.
2. The positioning is too stiff. The tome does not have any targeted heals like Druid has on CA #3 and staff #3 to quickly aide someone. It will become rather useless in most end-game situations such as fractals (where you get punished with social awkwardness if you stand too close to each other) or in WvW (where people are way too spread out). So it would be at least nice to make Tome of Resolve’s #1 Desert Bloom & #4 Shining River a ground targeted AOE.
3. Lack of protection on Tomes. I was kind of hoping we would at least be able to provide permanent protection other than spamming Hammer auto-attack. Only protection is given by activating Tome of Courage and #5. Why not put protection on Tome of Resolve’s #3 Azure Sun? This tome skill seems rather underwhelming.
4. The best defense is a good offense. Druids provide the party with insane damage buffs from spotter, spirits and GotL. This is going to be very hard for the Firebrand to replace. As of late, sharing buffs are going in the right direction. We can now share signets to teammates (albeit somewhat weak) and Quickfire trait might be the Firebrand’s equivalent of the Druid’s Grace of the Land. The tome skills kinda lack unique buffs right now. None of the tome skills make me really excited.
(edited by Noah.4756)
So I never did the raids during the time they were bugged three weeks ago. But I still received an ascended chest just now. Usually I do full raid clears with my guild on Monday and all the bosses dropped their loot for me. After a patch later on that week the raid bosses stopped dropping loot for a while, but since I didn’t raid while the bug was active it didn’t affect me. It was quickly fixed before the next weekly raid reset. So I got a free ascended armor chest which is pretty nice although I don’t think it was intentional?
The only difference is that guardian… or dh to be more specific will have LESS dps uptime loss. Again dps UPTIME loss. not the total damage. This duo to how the class or build functions in comparison with others. As we all know in a real scenario you have to dodge, (re)position yourself, foes moves also, and all of this goes at cost of your damage. Guardian has less problem with this duo to the fact that it can stay at ranged for like 70% of the time. I mean lets be honest, you only need to on the boss when you swap to GS and lay traps. For the remaining time you can stay at X range. You have to deal less with dodging and repositioning. Other classes will have to do this more often. So all of that combined guardian will pretty much deal similar damage if not perhaps a bit higher even IN A REAL SCENARIO in comparison with its party/squad members.
As much as I like to believe you I think you’re giving a somewhat rose-tinted picture to guardians in real raid scenario’s. For example, scepter doesn’t pierce, retaliation is hard to keep up for the 10% damage buff, light fields screw up more important fields such as fire, chill and water. Not to even mention all the benchmarks being done with the unrealistic trait of Unscathed Defender which only work in niche situations. More importantly, like I mentioned in my previous post, Guardian doesn’t bring anything to the party that other players could benefit from.
Staying at range isn’t all that great. You’ll lose all the buffs you get from staying in melee with the group. You will lose out on might, Grace of the Lands and other short range buffs which will also significantly impact your DPS output. With a decent Druid you won’t have to worry too much about the damage you get from standing in melee.
We’ve been in this stage before. I just wish anet would decide that if they’re gonna buff pve raid builds, they should probably also buff some for guardian. If not, then they got a lot of power creep to nerf in raids then.
The main problem is that the balance updates are too focused on DPS output and not enough on taking advantage of the diversity of each class. If we look at instanced PvE content you will see that since the expansion release not much has changed with these roles:
- We have the Warrior supplying might, banners and EA
- Chronomancer supplying quickness, alacrity and boon sharing while being able to tank
- Druid supplying heals, GotL, spotter, glyphs & spirits
Then we have only a few spots left for DPS & offensive support which have changed slightly since every balance update, mainly benefiting Tempests and condition Rangers. That means the Guardian has had to compete with all these other classes in order to get a spot. Frankly, there is not a lot a Guardian can bring to a party. I believe the balance team should go back to the drawing board and think why the current Guardian feels hollow instead of hallow. They made a step in the right direction by adding Pinpoint Distribution to Engineers and making Grace of the Lands/Banners focusing on 10 people. Even though the guardian hasn’t benefited from that yet.
To me, the Guardian has always been a supportive class and it took a wrong turn with the release of the Dragonhunter. Dragonhunter is a ranged offensive build with close combat traps which seems purposed for PvP and solo play which didn’t seem to benefit much from the core specializations which relied on close combat, active defense and a focus on support. Hopefully this gets restored by the next expansion. I sincerely hope we don’t simply receive an elite specialization that will deal condition damage and give quickness.
We need something that makes Guardians unique so we can start fulfilling other roles than just DPS. Before the expansion was released Guardian was frequently used for it’s active defense & supportive role. We had blinds, reflects, protection & blocks. But most of these have become useless with the introduction of Druids and Chronomancers. We should go back to that and make supportive builds more viable.
(edited by Noah.4756)
I hate to say it but our time has come. We are now the most unwanted class out there. Power builds got a significant 5% nerf with regards to seaweed salad. Most classes got stronger condition builds after the recent balance patches, except for Guardian. Our DPS is now at 29k DPS maximum. This is lower than a condition Revenant. We did got our signets buffed even though they are still bad, so there’s that.
Itss a margonite. Abaddon is coming.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Margonite
Look at the purple aura at the trailer match the purple from margonites, and abadon is the god of secrets.
This guy gets it.
After I made the precursor for Astralaria, the Mechanism, I should be able to simply get rid of the trophy items. But the process is rather complicated. First, I have to figure out if I can actually get rid of the item since the item itself lacks much of a description. If I do find out I can get rid of it I can’t vendor the trophies and if I want to delete them I have to type out the full name of every item. This seems impractical and totally not fun to do. I’m talking about items like these (I got at least 10 of them):
Astralaria Vol. 4
Celestial Cartographer’s Gear
Tyrian Constellation Almanac
Honestly, I feel bad for those who are dyslexic because it must take them quite a lot of time to clear the inventory of useless items.
I’m having huge lag spikes all evening now. I did a tracert to ArenaNet servers and the connection keeps having short time outs for these 3 ncsoft servers:
206-127-157-94.ncsoft.com [206.127.157.94] timing out
206-127-159-228.ncsoft.com [206.127.159.228] timing out
206-127-157-102.ncsoft.com [206.127.157.102] timing out
I was with a pug group today doing the Glenna escort raid boss. After clearing the third tower the amount of White Mantle enemies significantly increased. Usually there aren’t this many. Does anyone know what triggers this?
I have to say though that the group wasn’t that fast. Does it perhaps enrage after a certain time has passed?
ArenaNet posted earlier on Reddit saying they are working on changing the mistlock instability Boon Thieves. Here is the link.
Anet_Ben: “I agree that boon thieves is unfun. We are working on it!”
Currently, this instability on Fractals of the Mist level 80+ steals boons from us. When they steal retaliation it can possibly wipe out the whole party. Which is why a lot of guardians complained about it.
In the meantime, how would you suggest they fix it? Should they change the mistlock instability to something else or would you prefer to see something changed to light fields on Guardians?
Perhaps it could be part of some support bunker build. I see potential for Sanctuary on the Battle of Kyhlo map mid node. Maybe for Vale Guardian to stop the seekers. One minute cooldown makes it hard to proactively use it though.
For those interested, check this out:
Vale Guardian world boss (also known as the first raid boss) in Bloodstone Fen.
So you want to make them facets, but with mobile combo fields.
Yes and no. There are differences between facets and symbols. The comparison is more accurate with Warrior torch #5 or tempest overloads.
Especially after the latest patch where Guardians are now actively using symbols on every weapon it becomes even more of a necessity. Symbols work fine on static enemies but lose their effectiveness as soon as enemies move around. For example, Guardians are welcome in raids for bosses like Sabetha but are hindered from joining bosses like Xera. The majority of our strength, both damage and support, comes from symbols. If they cannot be effectively applied than the Guardian will never be part of that meta. Criticism also comes in PvP where the hammer auto-attack is too slow and enemies move around too much for the symbol to be useful.
The Deflecting Shot change is a good one. Takes the RNG out of it so you know when to get knockbocks when reviving.
yeah love this change. Good for preventing stomps and interupting heals.
It should also work on long range now I think. Before the patch the target had to be in 300 range to be knocked back.
It appears to be an edited form of sanctuary. 180 radius instead of 120 at first glance. Different healing numbers too, compared to normal sanctuary (which could also be changed, I don’t have enough experience to tell)
That doesn’t sound too bad for PvP/WvW. It’s going to be a tough pick between Absolute Resolution and Virtuous Solace depending on the amount of condition spam and map (Kyhlo).
- Triggers at 25% health
- Recharge is 75 seconds
- Four pulses of 394 healing
- Four seconds duration
- 180 Radius, 5 Targets
- Foes and projectiles cannot enter
- Works with Master of Consecration trait as far as I can tell (6 pulses, 6 seconds duration)
It appears to be an edited form of sanctuary. 180 radius instead of 120 at first glance. Different healing numbers too, compared to normal sanctuary (which could also be changed, I don’t have enough experience to tell)
That doesn’t sound too bad for PvP/WvW. It’s going to be a tough pick between Absolute Resolution and Virtuous Solace depending on the amount of condition spam and map (Kyhlo).
- Triggers at 25% health
- Recharge is 75 seconds
- Four pulses of 394 healing
- Four seconds duration
- 180 Radius, 5 Targets
- Foes and projectiles cannot enter
- Works with Master of Consecration trait as far as I can tell (6 pulses, 6 seconds duration)
supreme justice gone for new trait “Drop protective area when dropping below health threshold 25%”
That sounds so vague. Protective area can be anything. Is it going to be like Sanctuary that enemies cannot pass or more like a Symbol on the ground that gives protection?
The only thing that actually has a rotation are GS builds, but GS is only decent for high bursts, which overall limits its use to targets that die quickly (dungeons, low fracs) and is less suitable for raids. GS would need CD reductions on its skills (especially whirling wrath), bug fixes (really WW does less dmg on norn and charr anet?) and prob a more viable second set to swap to during CDs since GS auto is weak as hell.
That’s a viable alternative solution. If we can somehow manage to design our mobile builds to be more effective I wouldn’t care so much about requesting mobile symbols. We could probably have even more diversified builds then. Both greatsword and sword are currently under par when it comes to pure DPS output and added support to parties.
I agree with your greatsword suggestions. Although I think the disorganized Zeal and Radiation traitlines have an impact as well. Zeal suffers from reliability on symbols too much. Which isn’t exactly the core of the greatsword. While radiation is too focused on conditions while sword does none of that. At the same time the Radiance trait related to retaliation and signets are too weak. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Our traits are a mess.
If all symbols turned into walking AoE fields that follow you like the Berserker Torch, it would be a good change.
Yes. Like the Flames of War from the Berserker’s #5 torch skill. Or the Tempest overloads (without the channeling of course).
My main problem with the current symbols is that you can’t run after an enemy while taking advantage of the symbol. The symbols stay behind and are therefore rather useless. Only when the target remains fixed in one position is where symbols really shine which isn’t all that often. Especially with the hammer and mace the symbols are a vital part of their rotations, both in damage as well as support.
What about Symbols that work both offensively and defensively?
- Symbol of Swiftness on staff grants damage and swiftness.
- Symbol of Energy burns and grants vigor. (This is one I often switch the offensive/defensive use of.)
- Symbol of Faith damages and rants Regen
- Symbol of Wrath grants retaliation to allies and damages foes.
You said symbols are defensive or offensive of nature but I find this to often not be the cause.
Yes, you are correct. Splitting the symbols in two groups was not a good description of me. I understand that symbols can have multiple purposes. Especially with the symbols where we have the freedom of placement both close and far away (staff and longbow) I see some complications for losing some functionality.
Which is why I propose to make it a trait. This way the change doesn’t pigeonhole guardians into a symbol mechanic that could be disadvantageous in some situations. Instead, it gives the guardian build diversity with regards to the functionality of symbols. Which is much needed in some situations where enemies and party members are too mobile.
For example, the damage of the hammer and mace symbol would still be easily applied on the enemy because in both cases the guardian is already in melee range. I would already be happy if they just made this change only for hammer and mace and left the symbols on staff and longbow the way they are right now.
(edited by Noah.4756)
One of the reasons symbols are not effective in PvP, WvW and in raids is because our friends and foes are mostly not standing still in one position. Instead our symbols should either be tethered to the Guardian or around the enemy target. This would allow the symbols to be more effective in dynamic situations subject to mobility. For example, the hammer and mace symbols are defensive of nature and should be surrounding the guardian. While the greatsword and longbow symbols are more offensive and should surround the enemy target.
This could also potentially solve our movement speed problem. As the staff symbol gives us swiftness and by making it tether to the guardian we would have a reliable source of permanent swiftness.
Perhaps it could be part of a trait to give Guardians a choice for those who prefer the current mechanics of symbols.
dh virtues arent selfish, using them for allies just requires a lot more effort and coordination
It’s not just a lot more effort and coordination. The whole design of the Dragonhunter is flawed. We have a selfish long range bow, with selfish short range traps and a mix of both short and long range supportive virtues. There are so many mixed abilities for mixed roles that do not fit together. Which explains why guardians still fall back on hammer with old utilities in groups.
Of course there will be times I am going to use Wings of Resolve to jump and heal a party member. But we are not expected to do that. Same reason why players generally do not expect us to use Shield of Courage in any situation. We have other classes who are way better for that (druid/ele heals and revenant glint/dwarf). Virtues by itself are not effective enough to fulfill their role as support.
Shattered Aegis Should Damage up to 5 nearby foes (as it already does) and then also heal up to 5 nearby allies.
There’s a trait in Honor called Pure of Heart which heals when it blocks an attack, including aegis applied to others. I agree that this specific trait should’ve been consolidated when ArenaNet made the big trait overhaul just before HoT launched. This trait and many other traits are too scattered around to make effective builds out of them.
What’s the new 25% movement speed, has something been announced?
It’s becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Standard Meditrapper MetaBattle build, mostly SoloQ.
I would usually switch to Elementalist if our party didn’t have any. Guardian bunker doesn’t even come close to the Elementalist’s capabilities. If the enemy party had too many reflects (Engineers/Elementalists) I would usually switch to Herald/Druid. I felt especially useless against coordinated teams as the Guardian is too slow to disengage and has relatively low sustainability. Even though I try to stay close to objects (for LoS) at max range.
We have something like that right now. With the trait Retribution we get 10% more damage while under the influence of retaliation. Not exactly the same as your idea so I would still welcome it.
My proposition would be to make the trait Retribution (10% more damage while having retaliation) apply to the whole party. It could make retaliation and light fields potentially more valuable.
I had a thought once.
If mesmers have their one of a kind boon that only they apply, then I thought about something special that only guardian could have and that isssss…
An improved aegis that will not block attacks but instead it will become a little damage sponge.
I like your idea. The current implementation of Aegis is too unreliable with the amount of random hits going on. However, I see some trouble with PvP Conquest with that. The same problem existed in the previous PvP seasons with Bunker Mesmers. They could just permanently bunker a conquest node and eventually got nerfed.
This season in Spvp i manage be legendary only with my old style support Guard. Didn’t use any skill-Trait from HoT. When my mates were normal players i was king of point but when weren’t i was suffer. Cause all focus on me and condis where endless . I am not sure if they need to get nerfed or we need to buff up.
I tried also DH Bunker from meta. That build was selfish and troll build . Means u are alive till all die then u die and die fast as the other build. Players from ur team not healed enough from u or get buffed .If u not play dps Guard DH is pointless class.
Now if Anet still want to promote this fail called HoT need to marry DH and core game so we can have a decent Support-heal or Bunker class.
The problem with Guardians in PvP is that Elementalists are better bunkers because of the amount of damage mitigation (insane protection), healing, boons and reflect they have. Even a DH meditation build will not make it far because of the lack of complexity. With lack of complexity I mean that experienced players can completely nullify Guardians simply by having reflects and dodging traps. So in my opinion, yes, they absolutely need to be buffed in order to become part of the PvP meta.
The changes I would do to Guardians:
1)Within the Honor tree I would make the traits Protective Reviver and Vigurous Precision swap places within the traitline, then have Glacial Heart from Virtues and Honorable Staff from Honor swap places. This is simply personal preference
I like your idea for swapping Glacial heart with Honorable Staff. Glacial Heart has no relation to Virtues whatsoever and should be in the Honor tree so it can be used with Writ of Persistence. Honorable Staff, Communal Defense and Pure of Heart would have a lot more synergy with Virtue traits as well.
One change I would make is to remove Stalwart Defender (Master) from the Valor Tree, and move Altruistic Healing (Grandmaster) in its place. Then I would bring Pure of Voice from the Honor Tree, and move it to where Altruistic Healing used to be. This solves a couple of problems.
Altruistic Healing and Pure of Voice should belong together in the same tree. Although the question remains how strong it would make Guardians when we can use both Writ of Persistance, Pure of Voice and Altruistic Healing at the same time. Personally I feel like Altruistic Healing should remain a Grandmaster trait as it is very powerful. It would definitely make Guardians more worthwhile as a support class though.
Indomitable Courage activates immediately when casting Shield of Courage
Purification’s trap activation heals immediately when triggered. Cast time is 1/4s down from 1/2s.
I would also like to see Wings of Resolve heal (partially) activate before the jump. It’s not easy to pull the heal off when you get bursted in PvP. Especially when you try to jump further away.
Let’s face it, the Guardian has been surpassed by other classes in most game modes. Mesmers are better tanks, Revenants are better boon suppliers and Druids give better support. In PvP the Guardian lacks the complexity to be part of the meta. The only place the Guardian currently shines is in WvW.
The biggest issue that is causing this is the lack of vision that came with the Dragonhunter. Did we really need the Dragonhunter? What did the elite specialization bring to the table that the Guardian was lacking? The feeling of the bow with the traps is genuine but it doesn’t add anything significant to the class that we couldn’t do already. The Dragonhunter’s potential is mostly for solo-play. When it comes to teamplay, which effects 90% of the game, the Dragonhunter is overshadowed by other classes and their respective elite specializations. I prefer bringing my Druid to fight Xera, Tempest to obtain my PvP Season Legendary rank and Reaper to do T4 Fractals.
So what needs to be done to make Guardians more appealing in teamplay situations? To answer this question we need to go back to our core functionalities and how they currently aren’t functioning as they should be:
- Our traits are a mess after the dev’s consolidated them. No one uses Zeal, Radiance and Honor anymore. There is so much potential though. For example, I can’t wait for the day to use a Shattered Aegis build. However, it is never used because it simply doesn’t belong in the Zeal tree. It should be part of the Virtues or Valor tree. Same goes for Glacial Hammer which would be more fitting in the Honor tree. The Honor tree should be our supportive tree but it is nowhere near as effective as a Tempest or Druid.
- Utilities feel underpowered. Except for meditations most utilities either have too high recharge time or too low effectiveness. For example, they might as well rename Save Yourselves to “Save Ourselves” because I never us it other than to get swiftness, the other boons are simply not worth it for the recharge time. Meanwhile Necromancers can take all conditions from allies AND throw them back at the enemy. Signets are a one trick pony that don’t have any useful traits for them. Don’t even let me get started about how unreliable spirit weapons are. Our weak utilities and boon application is mainly why Mesmers are currently better tanks than Guardians. Simply because Mesmers give more useful boons to the party.
- The Guardian has great potential with blocks, reflections and light fields. But none of these are effectively used in return to deal damage. Light fields are frowned upon. Nobody wants them, yet we have no control over them as they are part of our main weapons and utilities. I rarely see retroactive use of Guardian blocks (Shield of Courage, retreat and so on) in order to prevent incoming damage. This is because the recharge time is too high and area is too small for teammates to anticipate (Bulwark trait feels rather useless).
What changes would you like to see in order to make Guardians great again?
(edited by Noah.4756)
Many players are saying that the Auric Basin Multiloot method isn’t hurting anyone. I somewhat agree with them. Although of course it does affect the economy in some ways. The economical implications of this multiloot are currently visible in the price trend of Globs of Ectoplasm. Since the publication of this multiloot the price of Globs of Ectoplasm has been brought down by 20%. I expect this trend to continue as more players become aware of it.
The reduced price of Globs of Ectoplasm, rares and other raw materials obtained from the multiloot will have an impact on other parts of the game. Legendaries will become cheaper to obtain. Other important exotic and ascended crafting recipes will be easier to craft as well. Tarrktun is definitely attracting more ectogambling addicts. I don’t see anything wrong with that.
My only problem is that it’s as boring as the SW chest farming is. Not to mention the “bag-inception” and amount of clicking you have to do that will leave you with a repetitive strain injury in your fingers. Surely the most rewarding content in the game should be more challenging than this. The rewards of the other Heart of Thorns map events are to be dwarfed by this lootfest galore.
Thanks guys. Some really interesting compositions in here that I haven’t even thought about. For example, the double Herald.
2 druids
2 necromancers
2 tempests
1 PS
1 DH
1 Chrono
1 Herald
Would 1 PS be enough to keep 25 might stacks on everyone? How would you make the subgroups for this? Maybe something like this?
Subgroup 1: PS, 2 Tempest, 2 Necro, DH (six people?)
Subgroup 3: Chrono + Herald
Subgroup 4: Druid
Subgroup 5: Druid
What would be the best performing class composition for Matthias (last boss of the 2nd raid wing)? I was thinking about the following two group setups:
1. Mirror Composition: 2 Druids, 2 PS Warriors, 2 Mesmers, 2 Tempests, 2 Reapers
2. Diversified Composition: 2 PS Warriors, 2 Tempests, 2 Druids, DH, Reaper, Mesmer + Revenant
Group 1. has two Mesmers instead of one. Which is good for back up reflects on the Blood Bubble. Although Mesmers do not exactly bring a lot of DPS and are more vulnerable. I chose for two Reapers but perhaps one Reaper is enough to transfer conditions with Plague Signet?
Group 2. is more sustainable as it brings protection from the DH hammer and Revenant Glint facet. It has back up reflect from the Dragonhunter which is a bit trickier to use. Also less condition removal with one Reaper.
Any recommendations?
You have the “Effect LOD” option ticked in your settings.
That’s like choosing between two evils.
Either I’m going to have no idea what’s going on because of too many effects, or I’m going to have no idea what’s going on because I can’t see enemy AOE’s.
Heard a few times that hitting the sapper aggros them to you. Never tried it myself.
When I hit the bandit sapper as soon as it spawns it doesn’t notice me. It must have something to do with positioning. But it’s not necessarily whoever stands closest to the sapper or to the jump pad.
Edit: We know the green bomb has a 800 range. So maybe it is whoever stands the furthest, but not further than 800 range.
(edited by Noah.4756)
I play a druid and can also reliably get the first bomb at south as I kite the napalm at range. However, when for example the north cannon is up, it is usually the one that comes back from destroying the west cannon that get’s the sapper aggro, not me. I can’t exactly make a reliable pattern of it yet.
It might have something to do with whoever stands closest to the jump pad where the cannon spawns. Hopefully someone can shed some more light on this.
How does it work? Dulfy’s guide states the following:
“They tend to target the player closest to them and throw a sapper bomb at them.”
This doesn’t seem to be working for me. I’ve been next to them as they spawn, even trying to attack them, but they still aggro a different player. Toughness also seems to be unaffected.
Can a revenant keep up 25 might stacks for their whole party? Let’s say they are using Glint with Facet of Strength, strength runes in their armor and Shared Empowerment trait.
I was pretty excited to finally use my druid ranger in raids and get some zealot gear. Unfortunately there are no ascended zealot rings/accessories/amulets in the game. I hope Anet is aware of that.
Any suggestions for alternatives? Should I go for clerics or berserker trinkets?
I’m wondering the same since I am considering to invest in Scrapper runes which give another 7% damage reduction. Currently using trooper runes but they are not very useful at the first raid boss since there are no conditions.
Unfortunately the numbers are a bit hidden with regards to damage reduction. We know that toughness effects armor, while armor gives damage reduction. I believe the formula would look something like this:
Total damage taken = Incoming damage (Based on Armor) * (.66 protection modifier) * (.9 Signet of Judgment multiplier) * (.9 Hunter’s Fortification multiplier) * (.93 Scrapper rune multiplier)
So let’s say the incoming damage is 5000 then with all those boons and traits listed above you would get hit for around 2500. That’s a damage reduction of 50%. If you add the boons and traits together it would be 60%. So there are some diminishing returns because of the multiplicative nature of the formula.
(edited by Noah.4756)