Beating a dead horse I know…but…kitten . What a waste!
It’s ok too have a horse. My horse is aftercast delays.
I’m assuming gw2 will have seasons that do not impact ranked mmr when reset, and doubting it will have leagues. I know it won’t have qualifier points since I heard the infrastructure was built to outsource. If all of the competitive side is outsourced than ladders are being built like a seasonal reward track. Ultimately it doesn’t matter if it is a system that replicates mmr instead of reflecting mmr since it is separated from the qualifying and seeding of tournaments.
Believe it or not the OP has very valid points, however, this game is beyond any kind of help from his suggestions. The Mesmer class seems to be his focus so I will start there.
Clones and pet AI — visual clutter — this was a very poor design decision when trying to pursue esports with no casting bars. Viewership is low because no one understands what they are looking at, not because of clones and pet AI, but it definitely makes matters worse.
Moa. Again a poor design decision coupled with several others. This is not because you are turned into a chicken. It is because it is a large cool down balancing out a large effect. Probably no one left playing would rather have gw1 style elite skills with reasonable effects on reasonable cool downs with a resource management other than cool downs.
Concerning 2v2/3v3. You can defend not having a heal other role as much as you want, but the simple fact is it limits game modes regardless of what the community does in custom arenas considering there are a fair amount of rules that go along with having them actually work well for esl tournaments.
Don’t forget the real joke about gw2 pvp is the skill gap is way too large for how big its population is. To really see how much of a joke it is just go look at the official wiki’s aftercast delay page. Nearly three years after a forced release out of beta from its producer and still key elements are missing.
Now keep in mind all of this is subjective. If the game wasn’t forced out of beta it might have had real ladders at launch and the large skill gap wouldn’t matter if the game was able to retain the massive amount of players it once had. In the end it doesn’t even matter. It is a fun game for what it is. My advice for Anet is to make as much money as they can and learn from their mistakes when planing for gw3.
Honestly I feel the fact that this thread hasn’t been locked yet to be a sign that Anet’s position may be gradually changing.
“Stop exploiting my game mode!”
-locked-
Over a million views later.
-unlocked-
Looking at your game history over the last few days, there were only two games you lost where the enemy team had a larger party than was on your team.
made my day, I love to see QQers smashed to the ground
It has more to do with the skill gap and current population not being able to sustain the mmr system than having premades face solos. The interaction between the cancle and aftercast delay is still in beta — it’s great for things but not for other things — where the players that know how to play better from learning the game over those who don’t and who in turn blame it on the premades.
Why is there no guaranteed way of knowing if a skill will respect or override the aftercast?
Please everyone, including you phantaram, don’t put yourself on a pedestal and proclaim that this is a problem, because it isn’t.
It’s hard to say just how many actual instant skills this game is being designed around because there are so many unlisted mechanisms that allow for skills to not respect the aftercast delays. This is the game that deleted its steady weapons instead of making them soul bound and valueless.
Yea reset everyones MMR and make it MMR based, a couple weeks of confusion and bad matches and then people will relax, although neither MMR or current leaderboard use win % i am never sure why people keep bringing this up. If win % is your idea of “top tier” then it is hard to beat the guy who is 1-0
I’m not disagreeing with you considering where the game is at.
The top players are those with the highest mmr. This point based system is being built for what’s best for the game right now since it isn’t 2011 anymore. The problems you described are solved by leagues and decay so win% is addressed while also accounting for a previous seasons mmr so those who did well climb the ladder faster. But, all that needs to be sustained by a large enough population. Unfortunately, the direction is aimed at solo players feeling entitled to a team oriented ranked match instead of encouraging them to form teams.
It is like a cup — of tea. It fills us with warmth until it reaches its capacity and becomes a useless endeavor.
They say mmr is like a ladder…
Awhile ago,
maybe a year, a red rep was posting about a chat wheel to facilitate better in game communication. I’m not sure if that will be in the expansion or after or never. I doubt an in game VoIP would be on the table. Put it this way, the competitive side of this game is outsourced through use of custom arenas. If the game can’t better insource that type of structure then why would they insource VoIP?
Except soloq wasn’t removed because it wasn’t needed it was removed because queue times for team arena were too long because there are no ladders. Furthermore soloq does not need leaderboards it needs an in game tournament system that was like gw1 RA were after so many wins it dumps you in TA.
Is this NA specific? In EU, soloq queue times were insane, because most skilled solo players played in ranked, to avoid the lame rotations and bad matchmaking you had in soloq. I had 10min+ queues in soloq, and insta pops in teamq. And I didn’t even mention the 4v5 one match out of three. The choice was easy.
I honestly don’t know. It’s been awhile since I actualy played so lately I only act like I know what I type.
As it stands, yes this game doesn’t need a soloq. I still feel the gw1 RA system of going on a winning streak was better for the demographic the op was describing versus the current lederborsd system.
I’m actually curious now if having the current unranked queue go on match winning streaks could work well or not. Then again I’ve been curious of how this games infrastructure would end up working for years so it’s all speculation.
1. Solo queue is not needed
Before the change to practice/play/compete, solo queue had a long queue time and matches came down to which team had the least bad players. The leaderboard for it was laughable (team was somewhat respectable). Why would bringing it back be any different?
Except soloq wasn’t removed because it wasn’t needed it was removed because queue times for team arena were too long because there are no ladders. Furthermore soloq does not need leaderboards it needs an in game tournament system that was like gw1 RA were after so many wins it dumps you in TA.
TA also needs an in game ranked tournament system for ladder rewards with a better leaderboard. That would mean an unranked version for people to play with friends while custom arenas get changed to guild halls. Except that may never happen and not because it isn’t needed.
In my opinion, most of the viewership of esports games like LoL or CS:GO comes from solo players who enjoy laddering but who simply don’t have enough time or commitment to join an actual team. They have a very strong understanding of whatever game they play, but don’t belong to a competitive team or organization. Their primary means of competition and improvement for the average player comes from solo queue.
To me it makes no sense why a solo player needs access to leaderboards for a team oriented game.
The type of laddering needed for solo players that would benefit the game the most is the return of the gw1 infrastructure of random arenas. It creates an in game tournament system before solo players are moved up into team arenas. To me it provides more of a gratification winning with the same 4 other solo players X amount of times in a row before moving up to team arena than a numbered brick on the wall being disbanded after every match.
Unfortunately, with no ladders there’s no team arenas because there’s no players due to there’s no ladders so there’s no team arenas so there’s no soloq. Thus, ladders may not be built right and the return of soloq may never return.
Advanced mechanics are not a bad thing, look at every other competitive game (DotA with orbwalking, CS:GO switching guns after shooting, even something like wavedashing in SSBM). Removing these things is just harmful, it prevents the player from exploring game mechanics and warping them to play the best.
Wavedashing was a physics exploit left in the game as according to Masahiro Sakurai it did not affect gameplay to a significant degree. Ssb4 does not have wavedashing along with L canceling as it increased the skill gap too much.
Switching guns in csgo was more or less a habit carried over from cs and later css from an accumulation inaccuracy bug along with being able to fire the awp faster. It is mainly used in csgo to keep apm high that can get you killed when overused at the wrong times.
Orbwalking in dota was again an exploit that allowed players to more or less cancel animation delays along with being able to be ignored by enemy creeps and towers as it was built on the warcraft3 platform. LoL being build on a custom platform does not retain the same effect of being ignored by enemy towers, but does retain canceling animation delays mainly due to it expanding its relatively small skill gap that rewards players for not being lazy. This is not taking into consideration strategy as part of its skill gap.
The best example is to simply compare the aftercast delays on gw1 and gw2. Gw1 had consistent “advanced mechanics” while gw2 has no consistency, and even more so, contradicts the quickness mechanic. It basically makes an already large skill gap even larger due to all the bugs and inconsistencies.
Wow 0 reply, I guess that was too long and most people rather QQ on the dailies.
Ok
The reason you are not seeing more replies because while your post is spot on these are all issues that are well known and as usual the ball is in A-net’s court. It’s always a waiting game that ultimately leads to disappointment.
I saw this thread the other day and was going to post a post with words about how all this is outsourced through use of the custom arenas, or something like that. Anyways I ended up doing something else so today ima leave this video with the phrase, Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
240 posts = alot of people have fallen for this blatent bait thread. No way OP believes it and if they did they still wouldnt post it here unless they literally wanted to troll people.
I love bait threads! Quoting specialists for the extra credits, though I admit it’s meaning will be lost on the masses.
PvP Specialist here.
Do you think the skill floor is too high? – Skill floor is how strong the build is for someone just starting the build. What accounts for this high skill floor?
Where do you think the skill of turret engineer comes in? – I don’t think the skill floor and ceiling are as close as people think. If the devs were to really enforce skill in a certain aspect of this build, where do you think it should be?
“Some skills respect aftercast delays, while others override them… … there’s no guaranteed way to know if a skill will respect the delay of another skill or cancel it other than trying…” – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aftercast_delay
That is where the game is unfortunately on the skill gap in general. They need to focus on the consistency the cancel mechanic has over the aftercast delay.
The turret engi is this games noobtube.
I think the dullness of HotM, reflects the stale meta and bad competition.
You need someone who can keep Toker’s attention
They insta-made everyone rank 80 with one patch?
I knew so many dudes who were grinding a ton to get to rank 80. Those people all quit because there was no rank system anymore.
It was maybe the strangest decision ever made. It seemed like someone who thought they knew everything about the game got giving free reign to just let their ideas run rough-shot unchecked over the game.
In fact that is what development has felt like for pvp on this game for 18 months or so. There seems no checks and balances on ideas at anet with some terrible ideas just suddenly popping up on live servers when nobody ever asked for them.
I have little hope for the expansion. It is like if ONE person (any of us) was put in charge of an aspect of the game it would suck. It is hard to find our own mistakes. Seems like collabarative development truely was just a PR exercise.
I don’t blame you for being jaded, pvp is still unfinished in my eyes. However, the bigger picture must be seen.
Anet only have so much on their plate in developing GW2, so pvp is what it is. For the most part I accept it. I support the reward tracks, matchmaking, current leaderboard systems, but there IS one thing I DO NOT accept & that is merging the arenas.
When SoloQ was taken out of the game in favor of TeamQ of unranked/ranked, it ruined pvp competition & favored teams over individuals. So now soloQers need a team(5 or less) just to compete and stay alive. People of all skill levels are affected by this, hotjoiners, solos, teams, pros, EVERYONE. Nobody can get a good game.
Of course there’s exceptions in skill, but for the most part, to go SoloQ is to go to A LIONS’ DEN.
THIS is the thing Anet needs to correct if they want a healthy pvp community. To do that, you need to restrict the teams to ranked just like before. It’s the ONLY way out or pvp is dead and buried.
I disagree with this aswell, according to some of the top PvP players in eu. NA has far more people in pvp yet our teams are not as good. Helesth and Blu talked about the solo que mentality of alot players and how its ruined competitive play in na. Blu went on to say that The Abjured would struggle when they do these money tourneys in eu because there community is far more competitive even though its much smaller.
Anet had to offer a refund because it had no ladders for competitive play. This game doesn’t even have clearly listed advantages for its cancel mechanic which leaves whoever knows how to break the aftercasts becomes more competitive. Both the addition and removal of soloq did not have any effect on the competitive play in NA. A game with a skill gap way to large between beginner and advanced players along with no real form of progression or support is what ruined competitive play along with its competitive population in NA.
More on topic to the op, ranks being lowered was a good thing that was implemented horribly since there was no additional ranks introduced afterwards to achieve which meant no more progression in that form for those that wanted it. There were far fewer people that left the game from that change versus the vast amount of people that took the refund for this game not having ladders.
ANet has made class dailies for over 6 weeks now without responding to numerous compalints. ANet does not seem to care about how class dailies impact PvP.
And it’s been 26 days since they allowed us to character swap without penalty. Plus the impact it has on pvp is it gets people who play the game to play the pvp. It’s implementation without an rng system per account was horrible nonetheless.
You mean hexes?
The need to have clear rules and listed advantages the cancel mechanic has over the aftercasts delay is just as important as the leagues are in bringing this pvp finally out of beta. Putting uninformed players at a disadvantage which unnecessarily increases the gap between beginner and advanced players is another variable to matchmaking.
I would personally love a compiled list of all the stow advantages to become a better player. The amount of information on the forums to play better does not reflect the wiki.
Looking to the future:
- Potential abuse in unranked queue via voting Skyhammer and swapping to a Skyhammer build.
- Counter comping. Due to seeing the enemy professions & names on the scoreboard.
Build templates will have the same effect and also be a positive thing to swap builds to a maps objectives.
Hiding enemy information until the lock in phase is a good idea. The only thing is character swapping deviates from making a balanced team because of profession mmr unless a system could identify and allow profession mmr within an acceptable range from each other.
(edited by Amstel Steel.2058)
Profession swapping is allowed, with no penalties. This isn’t a policy change, we just don’t feel we can enforce it at a quality level we are comfortable right now. No ETA on its return.
The one clear advantage gw2 has over gw1 is character swapping. If only gw1 RA allowed me to swap in or out of my healer it would have been the best qol upgrade ever. As a rough idea, to generate topic discussion, what would be the benefits and disadvantages of queuing directly from the character select screen for the people who just want to play to their teams disadvantages?
Edit: ah ha I just remembered profession mmr so add that to the disadvantages. Probably a scrap idea at that point. Hope if I play thief there isn’t 2 others on my team.
(edited by Amstel Steel.2058)
Chaith is touching on the slippery slope I’ve previously mentioned before in one of these threads. As soon as you say you can’t stow weapon in situation A (ie lw stow), when people stow weapon in Situation B (ie spacial surge stow), or situation C (ie canceling a skill from going on full cooldown), or situation D (baiting actions ie CnD stow) people who don’t use stow weapon will start yelling for bans on stow weapon in every situation.
This is why ANet simply needs to take action to change the behavior of the skill in game.
Or at least update their wiki page. It is depressing pulling up pages on cancel and aftercast delay with clear intent and advantages on gww only to not have the same kind of information on gw2w.
The most I could find on the gw2w… Stowing away a weapon can be used to cancel the current action, e.g. auto attacking or a utility skill. (The in-game options panel allows you to bind a key to the “Stow/Draw Weapons” command).
We still don’t know if abusing those unintended effects is a bannable offense.
As the saying goes after so long it becomes a feature.
If all that happens is this specific bug is worked around for being so apparent on tournament streams it will not help to close the gap between new and the informative players. The self cancel action key needs to retain its value in baiting out interrupts and certain skills like gw1 had while not shortening aftercasts (as well as other inconsistent means) since it contradicts the quickness mechanic.
On a side note I wouldn’t be surprised if a list has already been compiled that is still being looked into. The game is amazing and without subscription, but I feel the players need to push for it to get acknowledged. Next push, dealiverence.
It’s unfortunately a pretty buggy game if you were to grab a magnifying glass.
Justin is chill but this is a perfect example of how terrible the management is within the company. The pvp team tries to prevent class stacking while taking away the players ability to class swap while the pve team creates a daily to attract pve players to class stack. The upper management’s response has been pretty obvious that they don’t care or it would have been disabled or fixed by day two. At least that is the impression I got.
The first step is to introduce a new game mode! It’s been about 2 and a half years and there’s only one game mode!
Wahoo! Bye frands!
But, will they stay? I feel the problem is how big the gap between beginner and advanced players are due to (in part) hidden advantages beyond whip and surge. It’s not as if finding a compiled list of advanced techniques the current system offers is easy to find.
I would like to compare this to super smash Bros
Uhhhhh……Logical comparison failed.
The best comparison I can give is L-canceling to stow weapon or other means to shorten after casts.
My frands! In WWI soldiers all over the front stopped slaying each other to celebrate Christmas together! Let us cease this silly hate towards each other or towards matchmaking and the leaderboards and make Guild Warts 2 a frandly place!
Wipe and reset sucks because it rewards high cooldown elites such as banner and res spirit. Better to introduce a wave spawn system.
I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing considering how res sigs and hard res skills used to be in gw1. The mass revive skills in gw2 are more powerful, but there are ways to work around it I think that are better then the wave system not to mention it makes for interrupt skills and boon steals all the more effective for counter play.
As far as I’ve read the 5v5 ~15min match will be the standard across all modes.
It is apparent the amount of skills and traits with no heal other role makes tdm less ideal which makes your suggestion of adding in speed bumps in the form of rounds pretty solid.
Anet should test it out internally with and without small buffs given to the losing rounds team. So round1 blue team loses and gets small buff, round2 red team loses and gets small buff. It could make for closer games across the board without heavily manipulating the outcome of who would win if given enough rounds within the ~15min model.
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Anet already had an amazing pvp system in GW1. The fact that people have asked for the return of random arenas and team arenas multiple times on this thread and since this game has launched should tell you something….
It tells me the population is at an all time low and sacrifices need to be made. Sad really, but, its whatever. Who else thinks a year or two from now soloq will be reintroduced?
Id say adding duo Qing to it may have been okay if only one duo would get in per team, per match.
Better idea imo is to just have an unranked and ranked version of TA while keeping RA separate. The question becomes is the population too small to stretch it over 3 queues plus hotjoin?
We’ve been here before. Have we been here before? I am getting the strangest sense of déjà vu…
Why does the system need to cater to a solo player joining a ranked 5v5 conquest match? Can’t we just have RA and TA back?
If its not a problem for you then why mention it in a post that is about the celestial amulet…. has nothing to do with the use of stow weapon which I would argue is not a problem on ele, if you’re able to work lightning whip stow into your rotation well then you deserve that extra 300hp.
This thread is more or less about all the things that makes the amulet viable so in the case of the ele the stow trick is relevant. I agree that since players can use the stow trick they deserve to since the system allows for it. If anything it just needs more consistency either by patching up the loophole or introducing it as an official mechanic in the form of a bindable cancel action key.
As far as might stacking and duration goes I agree that it either needs to be shaved or additional ways to remove or steal boons should be added. The problem I take it as is the cele ele is able to offload their damage too well while building for survival. In this light shaving an extra 300hp on a questionable loophole is still the first step. I would argue if anything the problem with the celestial amulet is not that it is too powerful for conquest rather it is too powerful that limits the amount of build diversity.
I might have been mistaken about lightning whips dps being directly increased by stow weapon if there is no aftercast to bypass.
In the case of the dd cele ele fixing stow weapon is the first step. That will drop a decent amount of dps not intended for that amulet/rune/sigils build.
No it won’t lol.
It’s a little healing boost but it’s not one of the major problems. It’s quite hard to do in the middle of large team fights phanta himself has said he doesnt use it most of the time as it can be too risky if you mess up.
Stow weapon is an outlier mechanic that increases both the dps and hps of lightning whip when signet of restoration is used. When incorporated into practice the ele is able to increase their overall dps decently as it provides that extra burst of both damage and healing before moving into the next string of attacks and heals.
I never said it was a major problem I said it was the first step. Furthermore the build is already balanced due to the complexity of conquest.
In the case of the dd cele ele fixing stow weapon is the first step. That will drop a decent amount of dps not intended for that amulet/rune/sigils build.
All I see is a partial RNG voting system on top of another weighted RNG system that is a solution to an atypical conquest map. Also, Dishonor makes no sense the way I read it. If a player get’s disconnected that player cannot return to the match until the dishonor is up which guarantees every 4v5 to remain a 4v5 with no option to resign the match. Honestly, just allow the d/c player to reenter the match within a grace period. Ready Button that brings a bank and whatever was else gets an honorable mention.
I also get annoyed by things like stow-weapon on abilities making them much stronger than they should. The biggest offenders are ele lightning whip and memser GS auto. Perhaps just move the SoR proc (for ele) to the end of the LW skill, and remove the mesmer after-cast and spread the damage out over the whole duration.
Stow weapon to increase raw dps and sustain churns my stomach as well. I am really put off by the idea of having to do that to maximize your competitiveness.
I am indifferent about it, but wanted to point out its inconsistency. On one hand it is justifiable because it calls for more interaction which adds more reward for the effort, and is by far much better than the passive air fire proc’s simply because you have built to offload damage in that manner. In the end it really just looks like a loophole that was worked around instead of fully integrated as it is not even listed as a working mechanic on the wiki page.
Would it be better to have more consistency with a bindable cancel action key with clear intentions across a clear set of skills instead of the workarounds for certain situations in using the stow weapon and esc keys we now have?
A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.
Unless I’m mistaken, the mesmer greatsword auto aftercast can be bypassed in which case 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon air 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon fire > 11air11fire.
Is there a point you’re trying to make? Or did you just quote me and then make a random statement.
Why would you think it was a random statement? I was agreeing with the excerpt while clarifying what the op was discussing to further drive the topic. Why talk about auto attacks and sigil procs only to say stow weapon is random?
A more soft example, like you said tage, is mesmer. It can do enough damage on auto attacks to make you want to dodge, but you really want to save dodges for the big stuff like #2 gs and shatters. Most classes are soft examples like mesmer.
Unless I’m mistaken, the mesmer greatsword auto aftercast can be bypassed in which case 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon air 1 stow weapon 1 stow weapon fire > 11air11fire.
My question is — and I am not bothered in the least from whatever the original topic was about — is making use of canceling out the after casts by design? A follow up would be will gw2 ever get a bindable key to cancel actions for quality of life considering stow weapon is not as good for some situations as the esc key is or so I’ve read.
Are we meant to know how to increase our dps such as air/fire auto greatsword sans after casts? Obviously, because we can, but it doesn’t look like it is built with it in mind by no quality of life to teach new players how to manipulate their after casts. There is no button designed that shouts out press me to increase your dps.
You can create your own topic.
It adds perspective to your topic.
In the end the mesmer is balanced and balanced for conquest. The only mode other than the soon to be released lord rush.
@Amstel Steel. nice video. This is a great analogy. When you give too much powerfull spells to mesmers they can even turn you into a defenseless bird, a moa
(edited by Amstel Steel.2058)
When the mesmer needed a new identity for the guild wars sequel Anet was inspired by Arnold.
Does this mean GW2 is now officially Esports?
Gw2 has always been an electronic sport, however, to become a professional electronic sport they need third parties to sponsor teams.
The term “sport” has become so valueless today, that just about anything can be called it.
Since the dawn of time the value of sports has been to profit in ways beyond currency.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlYJPOGN7iQ
My question is — and I am not bothered in the least from whatever the original topic was about — is making use of canceling out the after casts by design? A follow up would be will gw2 ever get a bindable key to cancel actions for quality of life considering stow weapon is not as good for some situations as the esc key is or so I’ve read.
Are we meant to know how to increase our dps such as air/fire auto greatsword sans after casts? Obviously, because we can, but it doesn’t look like it is built with it in mind by no quality of life to teach new players how to manipulate their after casts. There is no button designed that shouts out press me to increase your dps.
Please lets focus in discuss how shatter is unbalanced and ways to nerf.
Well if you really want to mess with them you could just take away their powers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK1o38JKTJ0
My question is — and I am not bothered in the least from whatever the original topic was about — is making use of canceling out the after casts by design? A follow up would be will gw2 ever get a bindable key to cancel actions for quality of life considering stow weapon is not as good for some situations as the esc key is or so I’ve read.
Are we meant to know how to increase our dps such as air/fire auto greatsword sans after casts? Obviously, because we can, but it doesn’t look like it is built with it in mind by no quality of life to teach new players how to manipulate their after casts. There is no button designed that shouts out press me to increase your dps.
