Guild Wars 2

I still haven’t seen harassment of a dev.

I am not saying that all of the criticism of the handling of the pre-purchase announcements has been civil, but that is no more a harassment of an employee than would be a sign saying Exxon sucks after a preventable oilspill.

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Roquen.5406:

But that is where you are wrong if you pre-purchase HoT but already have the core game you DO NOT get a secondary new account, you just get the upgrade to HoT.

So once again, if you pre-purchase but don’t have an account you get a new account AND HoT.

If you already have an account you only get HoT.

That is the issue people have with this.

Actually, what he said is correct. He said that if you pre-buy and do not apply the code to an existing account, you will get the exact same thing that a brand new buyer gets, a new account with access to the HoT on that new account. Whether or not this is desirable to a veteran player is not something he discussed, only that the same option is available.

His argument is kind of nit picking though imo because while it is an option, it’s not a desirable option as it comes with so many disadvantages to someone who is progressing an old account. The old account will not have accesss to further progression from the new system and has no accesss to the new areas.

If you’d read the entirety of my post, you’d see that I did in fact comment on the desirability of attaching the HoT code to an existing account.

Also, the argument is not nitpicking if in fact one understands that the price if HoT is $50 and will be whether ANet keeps the free GW2 access or drops it due to poster pressure.

Posters who expect ANet to reduce the HoT price have not considered the economic realities. ANet stands to lose a lot more money if they drop the HoT price to $40 than they would likely lose if the barrier to entry were $60 or $70 (say) to new prospects. HoT sales to vets and returning vets are likely to be much higher than sales to new players no matter what new players have to pay.

Again, whether HoT is worth $50 is a separate issue that each consumer ought to evaluate for her/himself. If ANet had waited to attach a free GW2 copy to HoT until the xpac debuts, that is the issue that would be on the table, not perceived “unfairness.” Why didn’t they wait? I’m not sure. My guess would be because we’re approaching the end of Q2 2015 and NCSoft would like to see as much revenue increase as possible from GW2 for the quarterly report.

wether they will lose more money depends on how many people they lose at the 50 dollar price point versus the 40 dollar price point.

lets say they make sell 800 thousand at 40 dollars or 32 million
or 500k at 50 dollars is 25 million.

basically mathematically the break down between price points is

5:4 essentially if the 40 price will increase sales by 25%, it is of the same value. conversly, if the 50 dollar prices causes a 20% drop in player interest, it is the same value.

basically anet marketing guys have figured that they wont lose or gain that many players with a 40 versus a 50 dollar price point.

based on what people are saying now, and the contraversy, that may not be the case. The assumption was probably that at 50 dollar cost they would still have an extremely high retention rate.

what i see happening, is probably many people will not prepurchase, they will probably get some 40 dollar deal from a place like green man gaming or etc.
anet actually loses money on these sales, because they dont get full profit from these purchases. im assuming they probably get 20-30 dollars out of other retailers prices.

point is, i think they picked the wrong price point, definately for the public opinion, but also for maximum profit.
39.99 right now is the sweet spot for expansions.

Keep in mind that with the current $50 price tag people willing to spend $50 can do so and that people willing to spend $40 may get a deal from the place you mention.

If the price were at $40 then the people willing to pay $40 would do so and the people willing to pay $50 would spend ten dollars less than they would have.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy? OP’s post is all fantasy which also includes comments by the devs themselves! or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.

The writer of the article quoted devs in a manner to support the article’s position. At least one of those devs has since stated that they were not so targeted/affected and that the writer used the quote out of context.

When the, “journalists,” have to lie to make their point they arent really journalists and dont really have a point.

I just personally checked each and every one of the quoted twitters. Not one of them claims to have been quoted out of context, the closest message there is one saying they dont feel personally attacked but later on clarifies that some comments are indeed hurtful.

so unless the quote you mentioned was posted outside of twitter the journalist didnt lie to make his point.

It was posted in the reddit thread linked in this thread.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Ashen.2907:

pupi.2465:

I would like to see PvP in there, such a good map for pvp.

That would be interesting.

Interesting… but no… Lets keep PvP where it belongs.

Though, that /does/ bring a new thought to mind…
With the upcoming rise of the influence of Guilds after the fall of the Pact, this could be quite the set up for something potentially bad later on…
Sure, we need Guilds for the fight against Mordremoth.
But what will happen afterwards? It’s a good thing to have such organizations when you have a clear and present danger like the Elder Dragons to focus them on. But somehow I doubt that once things settle back down again, those same Guilds are just going to quietly disband and go away…

This could very well be the early beginnings of the Second Guild Wars…

Mind you, this would likely be many, many years in the future, if it happens at all… But still…

I meant the part about it being a good map for PvP. An instanced version.

I wouldnt want to convert the actual open world version of the map to PvP.

Gorani.7205:

paranoid mode on

You guys really fall for this smoke screen to cloud the whole controversy about the pre-purchase price policy?

This is a quality of life update to be able to change a current ascended armour into another stat via the MF. As it destroys all upgrades, a complete re-mod would cost e.g. ~120 gold (Zerker/Hoelbrak runes) + Laurels and soul shards.

I appreciate the update, but all the concerns and valid arguments about the HoT xpack has not been addressed.

paranoid mode off

This is about ascended gear and addressing complaints that have existed about ascended gear since its introduction.

The, perfectly reasonable to me (except no character slot), approach to the HoT expansion pack is not relevant.

Terrorsquad.4802:

callidus.7085:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sad, my 8 Legendaries are worth less then. I always saw Legendaries not only as a cool skin, but also as a great utility to invest in, changing stats.

Now Legendaries arent even unique anymore, except for the skin and +1 Infusion slot…

Legendaries get a free stat switch any time you want outside of combat. This new ascended stat switching requires you to Mystic Forge the item with the insignia for the stats you want (ascended insignia, not cheap) 5 ectos and 10 of the new shards… and you don’t keep the runes or sigils or infusions that are in the original item. I think legendaries still have a LOT going for them… so… make like a Reaper and Chill?

I know we can change legendaries stats. You’re not getting the point; this was what legendaries made so unique despite the skins.

And only legendaries will continue to be able to freely change stats outside of combat.

Ayrilana.1396:

This does make you wonder though. Of all of the information that Dragon Season and other sites have posted regarding the upcoming update, how likely are they to be taken as credible or true? They stated that ascended would be 10% better and yet Colin just said that wasn’t the case as the difference is remaining the same. So how much from those “patch notes” that hasn’t already been released by Anet is true?

The advantage of an early leak to a non-official site is the ability to see the reaction without committing to the leaked change.

pupi.2465:

I would like to see PvP in there, such a good map for pvp.

That would be interesting.

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy? OP’s post is all fantasy which also includes comments by the devs themselves! or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.

The writer of the article quoted devs in a manner to support the article’s position. At least one of those devs has since stated that they were not so targeted/affected and that the writer used the quote out of context.

When the, “journalists,” have to lie to make their point they arent really journalists and dont really have a point.

Galen Grey.4709:

But actually I am happy they’re not giving away anything spectacular if you prepurchase, especially in light of there being a lack of information on what the expansion offers. the worst that could happen is having people pre purchase the expansion for goodies only to find out they dont appreciate the actual content when its released.

I honestly dont see this aspect as a bad thing.

I agree completely.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just want to clarify since I saw this come up a couple of times in this thread and we haven’t actually released our full official patch notes for 6/23 yet….

Ascended Gear will be staying 5% better than Exotic Gear. Gear beyond the tiers we already have are not going to be added and our existing tiers won’t change, they won’t be our main end-game form of progression for your characters/account for all the reasons we’ve covered before – it isn’t what we think Gw2 is about.

Masteries is being added to PvE to help provide this system as our form of progression for PvE moving forward, and the WvW ability system exists for WvW and will be what we use to expand WvW in the future.

To more directly answer some of your point….We are adding a system that lets you change the stats for your ascended gear next Tuesday – which will cost a combination of 10 spirit shards, piece you don’t want anymore, 5 ectos, and an exotic insignia of the stats you want to convert to. Legendary Gear will remain the gear that can freely change stats any time.

-CJ

Very interesting. This may be a game changer for me.

.As to any silence on the issue:

Before any decision on whether or not to make any changes they will have to have meetings with the money guy, the suite, etc. They will also have to spend some time taking the measure of the reaction. If they decide to make any changes they will need to decide what the changes will be.

This all takes time.

Angelica Dream.7103:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’m not saying ANet did a great job of pricing or marketing (I don’t think they did). I am saying that reasonable people can disagree about what is fair.

That is so true.
But there is an old saying that “The customer is always right.”

This board has gone viral. Which should at least give them pause for thought. Since so many people disagree, the right marking move might be to toss the players a bone.
All the bad press can not he;p new players want to play.

Though my real point is Anet’s silence on this topic. For some reason they will not explain their side. Hence many players view it as a move to just ride it out. It looks like they do not care about us loyal players.

That old saying has always been wrong. Sometimes, often, even usually, the customer is right (asuming he is being reasonable).

Anchoku.8142:

Ashen.2907:

Anchoku.8142:

After thinking about the pre-purchase price a few days, I really have only one objection:

Those of us who have regularly purchased gems since release are treated the same as those who only convert gold to gems and never actually purchased gems.

I understand the promotional discount to new players as a temporary thing and I understand the steep price (assuming that price buys two more years of continuous investment by Arenanet).

I purchase gems with real money to support maintenance and development and am disappointed at receiving the same offer as players who do not support the game financially.

Honest question here:

Did you get what you paid for when you bought gems?

Don’t be a fool. Arenanet’s only income is from real money. Various virtual thingies offered on the BLTP for gems are enticements and rewards for spending gems. Players who grind gold are privileged to be able to exchange gold for gems but game gold pays no one’s salary.

Grow up. If gamers treat developers as unpaid volunteers, they will shut it down and leave to find work that pays.

Players who think they are entitled to perpetual improvements, expansions, balances, etc. without continued real costs are not customers Arenanet wants but continues to cater to.

By the way, if more players purchased gems with real money, maybe the HoT release price would have been lower.

I asked a simple question.

If the answer was yes, you got what you paid for, then you are entitled to nothing else.

If the answer was no you should take the matter up with support.

In either case, if product X (gems in this case) is advertised for (lets say) $10, and you pay that $10, you are entitled to receive product X. And thats it. Coming back afterward to say the equivalent to, “hey I got what I paid for, everything that was advertised as included for the price I chose to pay, but now, a year or three later, I want more,” is off base.

If Anet approached players now and said, “I know that we sold you gems at a certain price last year but we now want more for those same gems so pay up again,” pople would go nuts.

Ultimately if you got what you paid for, used it, and now, potentially years later, are complaining about it, perhaps I am not the onewho needs to stop being foolish and grow up.

I agree with the OP. I would suggest that not including a character slot in an expansion for which a significant selling point is a new class is a bit off IMO. It comes across as a form of hidden charge to require additional expenditure to use a feature of a paid expansion.

Not a huge deal, just a little off.

$50 per year does not seem excessive to me, even with an optional cosmetics focused cash shop, assuming that the expansion is worth that much to the individual. This one is not for me but perhaps the next.

MMOGamer.6175:

Ashen.2907:

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Ashen.2907:

Actually both players are getting the same result here. Both get the ability to create an account that includes the core game and HoT.

Technically a veteran gets something not available to a first time buyer, the option to link to an existing account instead.

So if you are in fact being offered the same result as the first tme buyer, even a bit more, what is your real complaint?

You’re technically in the wrong there, though.

Mind you, I couldn’t care less about new players and their perks, but I do care about fallacious logic.

An older player must’ve paid anywhere between $10-$60 for their account, and will need to pay an additional charge $-50 to upgrade it to GW2: HoT, so, that’s a $60-$110 expense to keep up with the changes, whereas a new player will only need $~50 for both, the standalone account and the upgrade. It would be equivalent if the older player could acquire an extra GW2 key to gift a friend or to use themselves, but that’s not the case.

Now, according to ANET, that standalone GW2 account for newcomers is just a bonus, but combined with the whole FAQ scandal, it really affects their credibility

That said, I’d like to reiterate that I don’t support either side, but that I understand from where the rage is coming from.

For the $50 price tag of HoT everyone gets an account with both core content and expansion content included. Players with existing accounts are allowed, but not required, to forgo the newly purchased account, if they so choose, in order to link to the existing account.

The price someone paid for an existing account as much as (close to) three years ago is irrelevant to what is provided in the HoT bundle. The bundle provides exactly the same for everyone, with the pfeviously mentioned exception that a veteran has an option not available to a first time buyer.

I think it is worth noting that a new account does not include something inherent to the mentioned veteran account: three years of play, past content, and accumulated rewards.

Still not buying your failed backwards thinking.

If I were to go to the website and use my credit card to purchase a copy of HoT would I or would I not get an account with both the core game and HoT included?

If a first time buyer goes to the website and purchases a copy of HoT would they or would they not get an account with both the core game and HoT included?

I already own the core. At the end of the transaction I would own a new copy of the core, linked to a new copy of HoT (exactly the same as a first time buyer) and I would also own a second copy of the core.

FenrirSlakt.3692:

Ashen.2907:

Actually both players are getting the same result here. Both get the ability to create an account that includes the core game and HoT.

Technically a veteran gets something not available to a first time buyer, the option to link to an existing account instead.

So if you are in fact being offered the same result as the first tme buyer, even a bit more, what is your real complaint?

You’re technically in the wrong there, though.

Mind you, I couldn’t care less about new players and their perks, but I do care about fallacious logic.

An older player must’ve paid anywhere between $10-$60 for their account, and will need to pay an additional charge $-50 to upgrade it to GW2: HoT, so, that’s a $60-$110 expense to keep up with the changes, whereas a new player will only need $~50 for both, the standalone account and the upgrade. It would be equivalent if the older player could acquire an extra GW2 key to gift a friend or to use themselves, but that’s not the case.

Now, according to ANET, that standalone GW2 account for newcomers is just a bonus, but combined with the whole FAQ scandal, it really affects their credibility

That said, I’d like to reiterate that I don’t support either side, but that I understand from where the rage is coming from.

For the $50 price tag of HoT everyone gets an account with both core content and expansion content included. Players with existing accounts are allowed, but not required, to forgo the newly purchased account, if they so choose, in order to link to the existing account.

The price someone paid for an existing account as much as (close to) three years ago is irrelevant to what is provided in the HoT bundle. The bundle provides exactly the same for everyone, for the same $50, with the previously mentioned exception that a veteran has an option not available to a first time buyer.

I think it is worth noting that a new account does not include something inherent to the mentioned veteran account: three years of play, past content, and accumulated rewards.

Anchoku.8142:

After thinking about the pre-purchase price a few days, I really have only one objection:

Those of us who have regularly purchased gems since release are treated the same as those who only convert gold to gems and never actually purchased gems.

I understand the promotional discount to new players as a temporary thing and I understand the steep price (assuming that price buys two more years of continuous investment by Arenanet).

I purchase gems with real money to support maintenance and development and am disappointed at receiving the same offer as players who do not support the game financially.

Honest question here:

Did you get what you paid for when you bought gems?

Is the point that its cheaper to buy a legendary with real money in the Chinese version of the game than in the rest of the world?

MMOGamer.6175:

Ashen.2907:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

evoRobot.4019:

It’s an exclusive offer and a common practice in business.

The bank has periods of time where you can open a certain account for free, like a waterhouse account, or high savings account. Someone might have opened one a few years ago and missed that offer, but still has the same services as the person who will receive it for free today.

Between those years the person who missed the offer got to build their credit, receive interest and save their money. But the new person must start from the ground up.

This is the exact same situation here.

So tell me where the difference is.

If two people are paying for the same thing at the same time, and they are purchasing it from the same producer, they expect to get the same result.

Actually both players are getting the same result here. Both get the ability to create an account that includes the core game and HoT.

Technically a veteran gets something not available to a first time buyer, the option to link to an existing account instead.

So if you are in fact being offered the same result as the first tme buyer, even a bit more, what is your real complaint?

People actually “think” like this?

It is accurate.

I am not claiming that not linking accounts would be desirable for a veteran, but if he is going to argue the comparison between what first time buyers get and what veterans get then the facts dont support him.

If one claims that he doesnt feel that the value of HoT is in line with his expectations or desires then I would say kudos for being a discriminating consumer. If he is going to argue facts he should probably be factual.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

evoRobot.4019:

It’s an exclusive offer and a common practice in business.

The bank has periods of time where you can open a certain account for free, like a waterhouse account, or high savings account. Someone might have opened one a few years ago and missed that offer, but still has the same services as the person who will receive it for free today.

Between those years the person who missed the offer got to build their credit, receive interest and save their money. But the new person must start from the ground up.

This is the exact same situation here.

So tell me where the difference is.

If two people are paying for the same thing at the same time, and they are purchasing it from the same producer, they expect to get the same result.

Actually both players are getting the same result here. Both get the ability to create an account that includes the core game and HoT.

Technically a veteran gets something not available to a first time buyer, the option to link to an existing account instead.

So if you are in fact being offered the same result as the first tme buyer, even a bit more, what is your real complaint?

What they have stated is that to unlock S2 LS you must have logged in during each chapter or you must buy it.

Nothing has been said to contradict those earlier statements.

CalamityO.2890:

“I’m sorry, but you wouldn’t see anyone, in any other medium, randomly rearranging the chapters or scenes in their “art”.”

You haven’t watched anime have you?. Some anime(s) have scenes that are included – which aren’t found in the manga. For example Akame ga kill. Spoiler if you’ve watched the anime, you know that Tatsumi dies. In the manga he is still alive *to my knowledge. The studio randomly put that last fight in the anime – why because they ran out of material. Manga is still ongoing.

The whole reason is to put certain scenes in to context, the other….the direction the studio wants it to take.

Two different art forms. Just like novels and movies based on them.

Galen Grey.4709:

can we stop saying we’re only getting a single map? Even worst everyone it taking that as a fact. We know for a fact that is not true.

Actually what we know for a “fact” is that they have said that there will be multiple maps. Something claimed is not a fact until sufficient evidence is present to prove it.

I believe them.

That doesn’t make it a fact. Anet has specifically stated that pre live announcements are always subject to change. Until anything hits live nothing said about it is a factual description of what it will be on live.

Individual deveopers are people who should receive our polite respect until they individually choose to discard it. They are extremely unlikely to have had any say in the pricing/marketing of the expansion.

Anet as a company is actively seeking our involvement with the expansion. If you as a company do this, unasked by the player, then you are inviting their feedback, nevative or positive. That feedback should be more civil, and more factual, than much of what we have seen IMO.

That said, the expansion is not worth $50 to me. It isn’t worth $5 to me. It does not matter how much blood, sweat, and tears goes into it, how hard individual devs worked on it, if it adds nothing of interest to me it isn’t worth a dime to me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What are people actually saying when they say, “HoT is not worth $50?” They’re saying that they have not yet seen enough to justify that price. They’re comparing HoT to other products that are priced similarly and making a judgment. This is called comparison shopping.

What are people actually saying when they say, “HoT is worth $50?” It’s either, “I’ve seen enough to justify the price.” or “I trust ANet.”

The discrepancy between those who haven’t and those who have seen enough? That comes down to different individuals valuing different things and/or having different standards. It’s subjective and cannot be resolved by rational (or in some cases irrational) discourse.

If it’s, “I trust ANet” … then that’s also a personal decision. I no longer trust them, not because of this issue, but because they no longer seem to want to provide the things about their game that I value. That’s why I’m waiting. If I will not buy based on trust, then HoT is going to have to undergo the comparison shopping test.

Exactly.

Vayne.8563:

I’d take gliding, and a new profession, plus new specalizations which add weapons to professions (something EotN didn’t do), over anything in EotN. Of course, I’ll still have the TP which Guild Wars 1 didn’t have at all, and I’d still have jumping puzzles and I’d still be able to play other races.

See it’s not just the amount of content, it’s the type of content. Eye of the North was a lot of fun for it’s time, but it’s time is gone.

For that matter, I prefer active combat to static combat. And I definitely prefer what I’ve seen of the Guild Halls in Guild Wars 2 to what we had in Guild Wars 1. Oh and I like Guild Missions, I heard they’re being updated.

I didn’t really have those in Guild Wars 1.

Did I mention an open world instead of an instanced world. Because I prefer that too.

EotN did not add access to existing weapons for classes that did not previously have it because every class could inherently use every weapon already.

GW1:
Sword
axe
hammer
dagger
shield
longbow
shortbow
recurve bow
hornbow
flatbow
spear
staff
wand
focus
scythe

GW2:
Sword
greatsword
axe
hammer
dagger
shield
pistol
scepter
focus
rifle
staff
spear
trident
speargun
longbow
shortbow

Similar number of weapons between the two games. GW2 had all of them from launch but gated access by profession. GW1 had all of them by the end of the year following launch, but allowed any class to use any weapon from its addition.

Not so much for myself any time recently. The breaks are getting longer each time.

Palindrome.8904:

Ashen.2907:

Palindrome.8904:

vincecontix.1264:

Palindrome.8904:

vincecontix.1264:

Guys $50 is the price of the expansion only those who pre-purchase get the the core game from free. Those who pre-order aren’t paying for the the core gw2 game.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-Price-Feedback-Base-game-included-merged
New players getting the core game for free is a good thing for the game overall. Wouldn’t it be great for this game to get new players and grow?
WoodenPotatoes Review of the HoT per-purchase sums up things well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtMGS3ezLI

Now if there is something to discuss if would be $50 price tag, though it is a bit high its kinda standard price for a lot of expansions. How much do most of us spend fast food, alcohol and other for of entertainment?

“The issue is that new players spend 50$ and get vanilla and HoT. Existing players spend 50$ and get HoT. There is a clear difference in what the money gets different people. "

Quoting myself as it was a reply to your copy/pasted comment in another thread. The price is not the important issue.

If thats what you are on about then there is no issue. If someone else gets a better deal good for them. New players coming to the game is great for the community.

The real issue to discuss is the $50 dollar price tag, I think an extra character slot would make most people happy.

Again, the price is not an issue. It’s not about a better deal. A sale is a better deal. This is about two people paying the same amount of money and getting to vastly different things that are marketed as equal.

The only difference between what those two people get is that a veteran gets more than a new player.

At one point I paid $10 for a character slot. At a later point another player paid $10 for the game which came with five character slots. We paid the same amount of money but I got fewer character slots. Unfair ?

..what? You bought an extra character slot for the price of a character slot and a new player buys the game but does not buy a character slot and… what?

You:
Game (5) + Gem store (1) = 6

Other player:
Game(5) = 5

I have no idea what your post is saying or how it is relevant.

I spent the same amount of money as the other guy but got 1/5th as much for that expenditure. Fair ? $10 = $10.

Linnael.1069:

“Simply not charging people” is an opportunity cost that somebody has to bear. The expansion would not be priced at 50$ if they were not giving out copies, barring the possibility that arenanet is generous enough to take the loss but somehow not generous enough to take an equivalent loss (charslot=$10=basegame) for veterans.

There is not necessarily a loss in giving the base game out for free to new players who buy the expansion. There is essentially no cost, opportunity or otherwise, for adding the core game to the expansion. Essentially no production cost.

On the other hand combining the core and expansion into one box increases the likelihood of new players buying into the game.

Which produces more revenue:
1) a player choosing to not spend $100 to play GW2 + HoT.
2) a player choosing to spend $50 to play GW2 + HoT.

Palindrome.8904:

vincecontix.1264:

Palindrome.8904:

vincecontix.1264:

Guys $50 is the price of the expansion only those who pre-purchase get the the core game from free. Those who pre-order aren’t paying for the the core gw2 game.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-Price-Feedback-Base-game-included-merged
New players getting the core game for free is a good thing for the game overall. Wouldn’t it be great for this game to get new players and grow?
WoodenPotatoes Review of the HoT per-purchase sums up things well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUtMGS3ezLI

Now if there is something to discuss if would be $50 price tag, though it is a bit high its kinda standard price for a lot of expansions. How much do most of us spend fast food, alcohol and other for of entertainment?

“The issue is that new players spend 50$ and get vanilla and HoT. Existing players spend 50$ and get HoT. There is a clear difference in what the money gets different people. "

Quoting myself as it was a reply to your copy/pasted comment in another thread. The price is not the important issue.

If thats what you are on about then there is no issue. If someone else gets a better deal good for them. New players coming to the game is great for the community.

The real issue to discuss is the $50 dollar price tag, I think an extra character slot would make most people happy.

Again, the price is not an issue. It’s not about a better deal. A sale is a better deal. This is about two people paying the same amount of money and getting to vastly different things that are marketed as equal.

The only difference between what those two people get is that a veteran gets more than a new player.

At one point I paid $10 for a character slot. At a later point another player paid $10 for the game which came with five character slots. We paid the same amount of money but I got fewer character slots. Unfair ?

Greymelken.1892:

Anet’s job is to entertain me.

So the question is:

Have you been entertained by your time in GW2?

Teon.5168:

Apparently, there are many here that never read the EULA. Almost all mmos include the the statement, “gaming experience may change at any time”.

Not necessarily relevant. Depending on region the EULA may not be binding.

Kal Spiro.9745:

So after three years I can’t complain when they’re trying to incentivise new players, especially when there business model is based around people buying boxes and never having to pay anything again. They need a revenue stream, not the Gem Store..

Exactly.

Everyone benefits from new people buying the game.

More revenue generally means more development.
More players generally means less time waiting for a group, etc.

Jerus.4350:

And in purchasing HoT I get the full base game with it, but not if I already have an account.

This is not accurate. Whether or not you have an existing account you can buy HoT and get a new full account that includes both the base game and the expansion content.

You can, of course, make the choice to forgo the second base account by choosing to link to an existing account. You have an option not available to a new player

Jerus.4350:

Labeling someone Entitled because they see themselves being ripped off,

I am not lumping anyone together with anyone else and I am not labeling anyone as entitled for feeling ripped off. I am stating that believing that one is owed more than one paid for is entitlement. This point was made specifically in reference to a claim, or implication, that someone who paid for X number of gems and received X number of gems is somehow due more than the gems.

As to the expansion:

I think the price point is reasonable in general. I expected somewhere between $40 and $50. On the other hand I think that not including a character slot in an expansion that has a new class as a selling point is a bit fishy. Requiring that people spend additional money beyond the price of the expansion in order to make full use of the expansion’s features seems cheesy to me.

That said, I don’t think that I will be buying the expansion. To date they have not announced anything that I would be currently willing to p ay for at any price. As much as I stated that $50 seems like a reasonable price in general, I don’t consider what I have seen announced for HoT as being worth even $5 to me.

KGS.9842:

firstly they still don’t get the “free bonus”, and thus they do not “have access to everything that the new player does”, if they did there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place

Yes they do. Every veteran has the same option to get a new account that includes both the core game and the expansion. If a veteran buys HoT without linking it to an existing account he has gotten exactly the same thing that a new players buying HoT would.

KGS.9842:

more importantly this ’’option’’ does not provide any actual additional content inaccessible to the new players, other than what the old players have already paid for (basic account)

Veterans have the ability to link the expansion content to a pre-existing account. By definition a new player does not have a pre-existing account.

It wouldn’t affect me.

Jerus.4350:

And to show it they purchased gems, thousands and thousands of them, Millions of dollars worth. To the people who say that those who supported ANet are acting Entitled by expecting some love returned to them for their continued support… well screw you too.

People who bought gems got what they paid for, the gems and anything they were able to trade those gems for. I did not buy a thousand dollars worth of gems to show devotion or anything of the sort. I bought them to use.

Believing that you are somehow owed more than you paid for is kind of one of the definitions of entitlement.

KGS.9842:

I am of course free to any critique about my understanding of the situation, provided it is based on actual facts

Perfectly reasonable.

KGS.9842:

1) we have 2 user groups: new players and old players
2) both groups pay the same price
3) the products they get in return are not equal of value:
*new players get core game + expansion (“free bonus”)
*old players get expansion

You are correct in saying that the products are not equal in value.
*everyone purchasing the expansion gets the core game plus HoT.

• veterans get the option to connect HoT to an existing account.

The inequality you describe as existing in the expansion favors the veterans as they have access to everything that the new player does plus an option that a new player does not have access to.

Jski.6180:

Ashen.2907:

Jski.6180:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Jski.6180:

Would not the ppl who do buy it say “yes we want more expansion” and thoughts who do not are saying “yes we want more free LS.” Just playing the negative is not the only way to make changes.

Should HoT fail to produce the “desired” revenue, that may or may not be interpreted as a demand for a return to LS. Companies are managed by people, who are prone — in the absence of explicit statements from consumers — to interpret a financial failure in light of their own thoughts and beliefs. ANet is as likely to take disappointing Hot revenue as: a reason to return to LS; a reason to pack it in; or a reason to seek a third option — whatever that might be.

I was pointing to a much narrower issue, which is the ability of consumers to influence company behavior in their favor by suing their only power. This power exists and can be used regardless of how the company is presenting their product — as long as they are charging for something. For instance, if ANet shifted back to the LS approach, consumer complaints might shift back to the often-debated issue of RNG boxes.

Edit: telling the company why you’re not paying is essential is the consumer is to in any way influence the company. Finally, to he company, refusing to purchase is the only way to really influence the company — although it takes mass refusal to make a dent.

So only be negative is the way to changes things i am not sure if that a good way to look at life. Money is only one of many ways to changes habitat of company if money was the only way then thoughts with more money would have all the say and our system of gov. would comply fall apart.

There are really only two* ways for consumers to change a company.

1) Targeting their income.

2) Government regulation.

I don’t think that getting governments involved in the pricing of MMO expansions is a good idea.

• I suppose that being sufficiently wealthy to buy the company counts as a third option.

There is a 3ed one self or industry regulation where you keep with industry standers of pricing and putting out goods. You can apply to the industry or look at the industry standers to get a good ideal of what is going on. So think movements of protesting (even though they where not going to buy it in the first places) or letters not saying they will not buy the goods or stop ppl from buying them (often killing jobs etc.. and causing more harm then good) but try make a plead to the industry over all to changes something. I mean company are still ran by humans. Must we use the nuclear option every time?

Movements of protesting work because of the potential impact on revenue.

Adherence to industry standards of pricing is done because charging more than what everyone else does means fewer people buy your product.

Letters of refusal to buy the company’s products are targeting the company’s revenue. They work if the company believes that the loss of revenue from the letter writers would seriously impact their bottom line.

Here is a solid test of revenue vs everything else as a motivator for large businesses.

Write a letter to CocaCola asking them to stop selling all of their beverages except for their bottled water because all but the water are harmful to human beings. Do not hold your breath.

There is a reason that it took legal action to get transfats out of food.

DaShi.1368:

There’s legal action as well, but I don’t think Anet has done anything illegal here.

Legal action targets their pocketbook and/or falls under government regulation. But I don’t see anything illegal here either.

Gotejjeken.1267:

Unloveableone.6082:

FirebrandFrog.7603:

Except the Megaservers aren’t ridiculously priced and bite older players who don’t want to buy the core game twice in the butt.

Try again.

You are literally not even kittening buying it.
It just comes as a bonus for people that don’t have it.
AGAIN.
YOU
ARE
NOT
BUYING
IT

kitten

I don’t even. The game at launch was $60. The expansion is nearly $60…and you think the base game being included isn’t having an effect on the price?

There is essentially no production cost associated with including the base game in the expansion. The price tag for HoT is seems more likely to be based on similarly priced expansions in the genre.

Exaggerating the cost of the expansion by 20% in order to draw a correlation between it and the cost of the game at launch seems odd. If $49.99 is almost $60 then it is also almost $40, one of the price points that some have claimed would be appropriate.

Jski.6180:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Jski.6180:

Would not the ppl who do buy it say “yes we want more expansion” and thoughts who do not are saying “yes we want more free LS.” Just playing the negative is not the only way to make changes.

Should HoT fail to produce the “desired” revenue, that may or may not be interpreted as a demand for a return to LS. Companies are managed by people, who are prone — in the absence of explicit statements from consumers — to interpret a financial failure in light of their own thoughts and beliefs. ANet is as likely to take disappointing Hot revenue as: a reason to return to LS; a reason to pack it in; or a reason to seek a third option — whatever that might be.

I was pointing to a much narrower issue, which is the ability of consumers to influence company behavior in their favor by suing their only power. This power exists and can be used regardless of how the company is presenting their product — as long as they are charging for something. For instance, if ANet shifted back to the LS approach, consumer complaints might shift back to the often-debated issue of RNG boxes.

Edit: telling the company why you’re not paying is essential is the consumer is to in any way influence the company. Finally, to he company, refusing to purchase is the only way to really influence the company — although it takes mass refusal to make a dent.

So only be negative is the way to changes things i am not sure if that a good way to look at life. Money is only one of many ways to changes habitat of company if money was the only way then thoughts with more money would have all the say and our system of gov. would comply fall apart.

There are really only two* ways for consumers to change a company.

1) Targeting their income.

2) Government regulation.

I don’t think that getting governments involved in the pricing of MMO expansions is a good idea.

• I suppose that being sufficiently wealthy to buy the company counts as a third option.

chemiclord.3978:

Okay, let’s be careful about lumping the entire community into one conglomerate whole.

The first complaint is that $50 is simply too high of a price tag for what has been presented. I’m not in disagreement, in all honesty. That’s something that can be rectified as more information pertaining to the expansion is released, but at the moment, it’s not enough for the “industry standard” price tag that has been slapped on it. You’re asking for fans to fork over money sight unseen, and Arena.net hasn’t particularly given a compelling reason to do so yet.

Still others are angry that purchasing the base expansion doesn’t come with a free character slot, something that previous games under the Guild Wars umbrella has done in the past. Again, I’m in agreement. There needs to be a compelling reason to break from precedent, and Arena.net has offered pretty much nothing but silence.

Entitlement doesn’t always have to be a bad thing. Standing up for what you think is a fair price to you is something that should be applauded as sound customer thinking. And if the protest actually stirs a change in the original plan, then it can only be a victory for customers everywhere.

But, unfortunately, once again, we have the kittenty, toxic element whose beef isn’t the price or the lack of bonus perks… but that purchase of the expansion will come with the base game at no extra cost for new players.

In summary, they aren’t angry because they feel cheated, they’re angry because they feel someone else is getting more than them. If you’re a member of this group, let it be known you’re a terrible person who needs to be summarily ignored and your complaints dismissed without merit.

Very well said.

Agrotera.1254:

I will say this much. Aion got a pretty big update yesterday and it was entirely, completely, free :-)

Are you sure that it was entirely, completely, free ?

No one paid a dime for it ?

A company sets a price for their product. Consumers buy the product. Both company and consumer get what they are supposed to out of the transaction. Neither side of the transaction ‘owes’ the other anything after each has fulfilled their portion of the transaction. Anet wasnt doing us a favor by selling us copies of GW2. They were a business trying to make a profit. They produced a service and we paid for it.

The fact that, in a previous transaction, both sides fulfilled their obligations does not mean that any given pricing on a new product should be seen as a good value. Any given product should be judged on its own merits as to whether or not it is a good value for a given consumer.

Kaleban.9834:

Ashen.2907:

Veteran players get more out of the pre-order than do new players.

A new player gets an account with access to both the original content and the new.

A veteran player gets an account with access to both the original content and the new.

A veteran player gets the option to link the new content to an existing account if he prefers that over a new account. His choice.

A new player, by definition, does not have a pre-existing to which he might choose to link the new content.

The new player has one option, the veteran has two options including the same one offered to the new player.

Such logic. Wow.

Tell me, does a veteran player, who somehow chooses to go with the new account and HoT to get the same value as a new player have any benefit as a veteran player? Its effectively a restart button, which means a veteran player choosing that option would be erasing nearly three years of progress.

I’ll hazard a guess that 100% of veteran players who buy HoT aren’t going to be restarting their main account, which means its not a legitimate option or choice.

The veteran in your example is not resetting three years of progress any more than anyone else who has purchased alternate accounts over the last three years.

Feel free to guess whatever you like. I posted facts, not opinions.

Kaleban.9834:

chemiclord.3978:

Zoul.1087:

“The industry standard”
Is entirely made up.

You know there are some entirely free to play MMOs.
Every time I hear “industry standard” I think of EA.

By “industry standard” I am (obviously) referring to the price of expansions by other MMO makers.

You have Final Fantasy XIV with an upcoming expansion at $40.
World of Warcraft’s latest expansion was $50.
Lord of the Rings online had their expansions priced at $40-$45 upon release, as I remember correctly.

Heart of Thorns is certainly not cheap, but it’s not overly expensive either. I’m not sure what price tag you were expecting, but if it was much lower than what we got, you were deluding yourself, and that’s frankly not Arena.net’s problem.

Take a second and look at the content/features of the “comparable” MMO expansions. Without listing anything else, Warlords of Draenor includes eight new dungeons and two raids.

Would you honestly say that what we’ve seen so far for HoT is anywhere near that? I can’t, and I would assume that anyone OBJECTIVELY looking at HoT would really squint their eyes at kitten price tag.

Objectivity is irrelevant here.

Value is subjective.

I would not play WoW if Blizzard paid me the $50. Other games, with a fraction of the content, I have paid thousands of dollars to play.

Veteran players get more out of the pre-order than do new players.

A new player gets an account with access to both the original content and the new.

A veteran player gets an account with access to both the original content and the new.

A veteran player gets the option to link the new content to an existing account if he prefers that over a new account. His choice.

A new player, by definition, does not have a pre-existing to which he might choose to link the new content.

The new player has one option, the veteran has two options including the same one offered to the new player.