Guild Wars 2

It’s confusingly written and the timing of it is bad because I can’t imagine they would give away 2 keys so close together. Imo, they had the key give away then announced it. (No comment on quality control here).

Brother Grimm.5176:

My only suggestion for an alternate solution for this is to require payment for a restoration beyond the first. How that value is determined would certainly be questionable, however (would not be able to follow the “we are all equal”, mentality, IMO).

Snip

From what Gaile has said previously, it’s not the cost to ANet that’s the problem, though I imagine it’s a consideration, but the cost to the economy. Everyone gets one free pass, no matter how much gold they had or (extreme example here) if they had a whole bank full of Legendaries that were taken out, sold and then replaced by ANet.

The cumulative cost of injecting gold, mats, Legendaries, etc.. over and over again as nonsecure accounts are repeatedly hacked and restored would add considerably to inflation. There are people who would not bother to properly secure their accounts if they know that all they have to do is make a ticket and wait a few days.

It’s harsh on the people who are hacked successive times and tried as best they could to secure their account but ANet has to think of the health of the game before they think of individual accounts.

Well, you made a mistake but now you know. It happens. Have fun in game.

By the way, you say you are getting password reset requests? Have you done a security sweep of your computer? Checked for a keylogger and then changed your email password? Because they’ve gotten your information and if they are trying to change your password they may have your serial number from your email.

I don’t see how having to type in a character name would substantially slow hackers down.

When you friend people not only can you see their account name but when they log on you can see that character name. Someone could buy or steal an account then set a computer to friend hundreds of thousands of accounts off the leaderboard, or even all 3 million plus accounts sold, and have the computer watch for logons and record character names.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Astral Projections.7320:

Bloodstealer.5978:

How can I answer what ANET would and wouldn’t do.. that kind of thing is something I am not parlez to.. then again neither are you, so I throw the question back at ya.
Bliz and ANET are different companies, because one does something does that in fact mean everyone else would follow the same path.. are you really that naïve?

And back what up.. it was a “what if” scenario, there is nothing to back up… sheez have you got past 3rd grade yet?

Yes, we know you don’t have anything to back up your “statements” but the account forum is not the place to be making random paranoid remarks.

Now I really am getting paranoid.. is this the same person with two accounts, is it one account with a bot or just twins acting out the same god scenario…

You seem to have the same lack of reading comprehension though, so twins it might be… if I wanted to make it a statement I would of worded in a very different way rather than a “what if” ya know… sigh!

The account forum is not the place for random speculations. It is specifically to answer people questions. For this, facts only are stated as much as they can be known. The answers to the questions are backed up with citations and links to relevant threads.

This is not a debate forum but an ‘ask a question to be answered forum’. Your speculations as to whether or not ANet has a hacking problem are in the wrong forum. If you wish to debate this you should open a thread in the Discussion Forum.

Bloodstealer.5978:

How can I answer what ANET would and wouldn’t do.. that kind of thing is something I am not parlez to.. then again neither are you, so I throw the question back at ya.
Bliz and ANET are different companies, because one does something does that in fact mean everyone else would follow the same path.. are you really that naïve?

And back what up.. it was a “what if” scenario, there is nothing to back up… sheez have you got past 3rd grade yet?

Yes, we know you don’t have anything to back up your “statements” but the account forum is not the place to be making random paranoid remarks.

Bloodstealer.5978:

lordkrall.7241:

Bloodstealer.5978:

You only see forum posts.. not everyone raises tickets via come to the forums… very small proportion of people actually come here in the first place.
The question you really should be asking.. would ANET announce if they did have issues .. I think not perosnallly

So you are basically claiming that Gaile is blatantly lying when she states that there have not been a massive increase in tickets about hacked accounts?

If there was a security breach, they it is extremely unlikely that they would not inform the player-base and tell them to change passwords and so on.

Try reading my post again…

No where did I say she was lying.. I said “don’t get me wrong I am not saying there has been anything untoward happen back at HQ”
But even if there was Gaile would likely not be able to say anything outside a script either way unless ANET big wigs themselves decide on it.

Playing a white Knight sometimes means you have to look outside that little box and consider all da worldly things gwassopper

Ahhhhh. Ok. So since she specifically said there hasn’t been a massive increase in hacked accounts, if you are right then either people in the know lied to her, which is illegal and could lead to lawsuits if it came out. Or they told her the truth and she came to the forum and outright lied. (Tsk tsk Gaile!) Or ANet is so incompetent that they can’t understand their own metrics and see the truth.

Good to know.

wulfheart.8206:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

No, two people can not share an account. It is against the UA you agreed to. You can find all the necessary information here:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/

and here: https://help.guildwars2.com/home

I believe what Xyonon was saying is “I OWN both accounts, I just let my friend play on it”

Which is against TOS as Inculpatus was telling him.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/
Additional License Restrictions — You acknowledge You will not directly or indirectly:
on, any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof; and/or

sell, sub-license, rent, lease, grant a security interest in, borrow, lend, loan, network or engage in any activity that could in any way transfer or provide others access to any Service, Content, Software, or parts thereof, including but not limited to any serial code number, access key or the like.

Behellagh.1468:

Astral Projections.7320:

Behellagh.1468:
The breach wasn’t at their end. Someone got enough info from your system, likely though compromised e-mail account, to add an authenticator and then it was easy to jack and empty your account.
And since this wasn’t the first time and they made clear that only one restoration per account you are SOL. Maybe you need to evaluate your e-mail and computer security habits rather than lash out at them.
The critical part to emphasize is the following: “The breach wasn’t at their end. Someone got enough info from your system, likely though compromised e-mail account, to add an authenticator and then it was easy to jack and empty your account.”

Excuse me? I’m not one who is complaining, been hacked or is lashing out. I’m simply stating that players need to secure all system they use to access both the game and the forum since the login info is identical. Also that good password “hygiene”, that is using unique passwords on all accounts, especially your email, is way to reduce your chances of having your account stolen.

Sorry, that was a quote from another thread where you were responding to someone else, I left it in because Gaile’s answer below it referenced it and her reply didn’t make sense without it. (I didn’t want to put in a thread link as I’ve gotten infractions before for doing so).

What free item are you talking about?

Sinope.5630:

@AstralProjections, @ lordkrall and @Inculpatus cedo

I have read your answers to all these people whom account have been hacked or they have been in other distress, and wonder have you even understand how much harm you are doing to ArenaNet, when you are giving these judgemental statements. I can read from your answers that any of you haven’t worked ever in custom service or in HelpDesk. If you would have done that, your tone would be totally different. You don’t have even slightes idea, what means to be in support. You are all lack of empathy, you are not professional at all, and most of all, every time when you judge some poor one in here, you make them hate even more ArenaNet and their policy.

Fortunately, I haven’t been hacked yet and I haven’t been in your teeth in that way. But your lack of empathy really makes me sad. I think in these cases you should leave answering to Gaile. You can give advices to the people in little things, should they contact to the support or what to do. But these things where are involved strong feelings, you should leave the answering to those who have been trained for that kind of situations.

I have seen that even Gaile have lost her touch time to time in these hard situations, and you who have no skills are totally incompetent to handle hard situations like these.

So please, if you don’t want to harm more ArenaNet, do not touch these sensitive subjects.

I’ve mostly quoted Gaile Gray herself. You may refer any comments about incompetence, no skills and lack of empathy to her. But if she doesn’t know what the answers are, then who does?

I do have sympathy, I happen to believe though you and the others are wrong on several important facts. And if you are wrong, then being sympathetic only goes so far. You are going by your emotions here and not by the facts as told by Gaile herself.

(Edit: I was being sarcastic here. I wasn’t claiming that Gaile is incompetent, etc. But trying to imply that the poster doesn’t understand the answers given by Gaile or others and is responding emotionally. Not my best effort)

I used this yesterday. You have to select the map and look over the pictures of what they have to offer, but you can generally pick out icons of stuff you have or are looking for.
http://dulfy.net/2012/08/28/guild-wars-2-karma-vendor-list/

If you have the actual weapon type and name you can try this guide to see who sells it
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_karma_merchant_items

I have a hair kit and I checked. The closest one I found was an old hair style. Starting from the right most pane, go over 3 panes and it’s the top right one.

It’s not exact though. There isn’t the big different between the top and sides though there is some. Maybe it’s how the picture is lit or the hair color he chose?

It’s definitely not one of the new ones on the human.

@wulfheart
“I’m pretty sure if ANet really did look into my account they’d know that my account was logged in from another location and for some reason my e-mail authentication was turned off. But I think whoever studied my account just looked at “Already had account restored” and probably never bothered to look further. Big loss on my end, but like I said, I’m just a speck in the community, no big deal for them.”

That right there tells you that your email was hacked.

Gaile Gray
Account and E-mail Compromise Incidents
“We are finding that nearly every time a game account is compromised, the e-mail account is also compromised. Many times, hackers are clever enough to mask their access to the e-mail account, rendering that illicit access invisible to the user. That is, the legitimate e-mail account holder is not even aware that the e-mail account is being accessed by a hacker. But although we often are told “My e-mail is secure” we also frequently note that the account hacker has deleted authentication authorization requests related to the hacking location, or has deleted e-mailed receipts. The hacker hides his access by removing auth e-mails and steals the serial code and/or order number and deletes it so the legitimate owner no longer can find that vital info.
You can see this yourself when you read forum threads and the player says, “I cannot locate my receipt e-mail” or “I must have deleted my receipt.” Actually, in most cases that statement points to the e-mail account having been hacked, with the various “proofs of ownership” now being solely in the hands of the hacker (after being deleted so the owner can’t get to them). And, sadly, you see this when someone states “The only authentication e-mails are my own access points” but one or more additional authorization requests were sent but were deleted by the hacker.
Basically, even if someone believes his/her e-mail is secure, a hacker very often is in the account and is intercepting mails or authorizing access to the stolen account.
Specific questions to ask if your GW2 account has been compromised:
Do you have e-mail or mobile authentication? Great!
Are you using or have you every used your GW2 password anywhere else? That’s a recipe for disaster.
Are you using a unique e-mail account for GW2 only? That’s a very good idea.
Have you reset your e-mail password recently?
Do you have authentication on your e-mail account, where it verifies access to your e-mail account through a mobile device or an alternate e-mail account?”

Isn’t that what that tab basically always looks like?

It’s not specific for you, it’s promotions to every player in the game whether they have bought or not. Whether they got free stuff or stuff on sale. It’s a standard set page.

From a couple of threads:
Gaile Gray
(Snip)
A number of RMTs and hackers have become quite desperate to continue their shady activities, and they are targeting vulnerable accounts. (Snip)

Behellagh.1468:
The breach wasn’t at their end. Someone got enough info from your system, likely though compromised e-mail account, to add an authenticator and then it was easy to jack and empty your account.
And since this wasn’t the first time and they made clear that only one restoration per account you are SOL. Maybe you need to evaluate your e-mail and computer security habits rather than lash out at them.
The critical part to emphasize is the following: “The breach wasn’t at their end. Someone got enough info from your system, likely though compromised e-mail account, to add an authenticator and then it was easy to jack and empty your account.”
Gaile Gray:
“This is absolutely true. The account hacks that people are posting about are not related to a Guild Wars 2 or ArenaNet security issue. The account compromises, or “hacks,” are happening because of personal security breaches, and most commonly they involve a “hack” of the e-mail account, too, which makes resolving them that much more difficult. (The hacker intercepts the e-mails, wipes the in-box, and the player never knows what happened.)
We will help, to the best of our ability, but ultimately, your personal security is your responsibility and there’s only so much we are able to offer. Repeated account restorations would be harmful to the game economy and therefore would have a negative impact on all players. Repeated restorations also creates an expectation that no matter how poor someone’s security practices are, ArenaNet will help them with yet another “do over.”
Please know, I never make light of security breaches. I fully understand and am sympathetic about how devastating a compromise can be! But statements like, “This guy was hacked, OMG it’s Anet’s fault” and nothing more than meaningless conspiracy theories, without a shred of fact behind them.
Please let us help you – we’re committed to doing so! Please share all your concerns and questions and requests within your ticket. But please do not cast about for someone else on which to place blame for a breach in personal security.”

nuggant.8239:
“I have done this and confirmed that my email account has not been compromised as I mentioned abobce care to expain how they got the info”
Gaile Gray
“I have no idea how your account was hacked. But it’s safe to say they did not get the information from us. How can I say that with such confidence? There are more than 3 million GW2 accounts. If there was a security breach, we’d see tens of thousands of tickets. There has not been an increase in hacked account tickets whatsoever; I verified that today. There has been an increase in the time that our agents require to answer tickets about the matter, so some people are concluding (falsely) that there’s some sort of issue, where in the past, compromised players were helped within hours and the matter never made it to the forums.
Some point to the forums to prove there’s a security issue. But if you see a “flood” of posts, you’re seeing a dozen. If there was a security issue, you’d see thousands.
I’m sorry you were hacked. But it’s not fair to conclude that “it’s on ArenaNet” when clearly, it is not. I strongly encourage you to read the Security Thread in its entirety to learn about this subject.”

You have speculation. She has access to the actual numbers and she says there isn’t an increase. Unless you want to call her either a liar or incompetent……..

If they gave multiple resets to people, what’s to stop people from getting together to scam the system? One person give another the login information. The second “hacks” the account and “steals” everything. Then the first person gets an full account restore. Rinse and repeat. If the “hacker” uses trial accounts where possible or buys them when on sale he doesn’t have to risk his main account.

One thing Gaile has said is they are currently banning a lot of gold sellers. These people are now taking over accounts they hacked previously but left sitting untouched. This may account for a lot of people getting hit now.

I’m a little confused.

Are you trying to link your account to an account that someone gave you?

If you are, you can’t do that. It’s against the contract he signed. He can’t give it to you and you can’t accept it.

Couldn’t find it either on Dulfy, so I guess not (but I thought it was too).

http://dulfy.net/2013/10/01/gw2-new-hairstyles-in-twilight-assault-patch/
http://dulfy.net/2014/03/18/gw2-new-hairstyles-in-total-makover-kits-and-self-style-hair-kits/

The closest one is a Norn one, from the front.

Wings, yes. But on my shoes (my Mesmer needs them to run faster). And you can wear them with capes. And the capes can have wings. As well as the backpiece. And the helm, don’t forget the helm.

Edit: forgot the winged helm. :O

What about those who use crafting to level? I leveled cooking to 400 on 3 different chars, two of them to get those levels. A guildie recently got the last few levels of his newest char to 80 by crafting.

Just because you got yours and you don’t need it anymore doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be available for people leveling now.

No, ANet doesn’t need to do anything. It’s fine the way it is.

Did you speak to the Lion Guard Armor NPC standing by the trading post? Not the Lion Guard Weapon NPC. They are right by each other and you have to speak to the Armor NPC to have your old costumes appear.

They are trying hard to make the kittens cute and adorable. Imo though they don’t have the proportions right. The body to me looks like an adult cat’s body with a large head attached. The combination is supposed to look young, but it doesn’t really. To me, the body needs to be shorter, maybe not quite as stocky.

I don’t think you can close a ticket on the forum. Just put in at the top of the ticket, I no longer require any help. Support should then close it. They are really busy right now, it may take a bit.

I’m very suspicious that you’ve been hacked and someone else is changing your password. Obviously they have your login information if you are getting log on requests from another country. If it gets changed after you change it, it makes me think your email is hacked.

Check for a key logger. Run a security sweep of your computer. Change your email password. Fast.

After you do that you can read this for any tips:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/Account-Security-What-you-need-to-know/first#post3884132

Other people have invested in limited time skins and got burned when ANet released more of them. iirc they did it with this last LS patch on Lions Arch. A number of skins had a rare chance to come out of those refugee bags.

I would think twice and hard before I put 300 gold on it.

When I first started this game I made TWO guilds with the 50 slot storage. Then I realized the use limitations. Then I found out if you get hacked you lose all. Then I found out’ it ties you to that server. So, is the storage useful? Somewhat. I’ve slowly been getting extra stacks of stuff I don’t want to sell (T6 mats, gems, cooking mats and ingots) but nowhere near enough to fill one of my guilds, much less two.

If you flip on the TP and have lots of extra stuff you hold for awhile, if you don’t sell all your mats for some reason, if you are reasonably sure your account is safe, if you are not planning to transfer, then the guild bank vault is a good choice. Otherwise you might go toward the buffs instead.

Brother Grimm.5176:

I think we are missing a vital bit of information in this story (but I’m the overly suspicious type). Why would the OP NOT post the actual name in question? (from the description: Lupus)

Maybe it was banned because they thought it was referring to the disease commonly referred to as Lupus (lupus erythematosus) not the Latin word for wolf. Naming a character after a disease is against TOS.

Dyes: you can use any of the dyes you have and it has 4 dyeable channels.

It kind of depends. Do you have another guild you rep that keeps buffs up or is this your only guild? If you rep another guild with the buffs, then maybe more storage later. It’s not worth spending influence on stuff you don’t need. If that’s your only guild it depends how fast you fill the first storage up versus how important the buffs are to you.

Without knowing any particulars like how much you accumulate, if you rep other guilds, what areas of the game you prefer, etc… It’s hard for anyone to specifically recommend.

juno.1840:

Obtena.7952:

Leablo.2651:

Obtena.7952:

If what you say is true, the game wouldn’t exist. Zero ROI projects aren’t really popular with investors and employees can’t buy groceries with promises and good will.

I missed the part where he claimed that Anet was a non-profit.

The part where he implies the only funding the game needed was from box sales.

I said it was “marketed” the way I described. I didn’t claim it was the reality of the situation. We believe that gem store revenue is a major component of total revenue. Otherwise the LS content would not be free.

However GW2 was originally marketed as “buy once, play forever” just like GW1. Defend the cash shop all you want, but it’s not good for the longevity of the game.

Well Guild Wars 1 had the ingame store also, which people seem to forget about. And what could you buy there?

1) the Bonus packs. Content you had to pay for extra to play. No payee, no playee. (And no, I’m not talking about expansions here).
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Bonus_Mission_Pack
2) mercenary hero slots, so you never had to group up with those annoying other people in the game again.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mercenary_Hero_Slot
3) skill unlock packs. Don’t want to play the game and earn the skills? You don’t have to! (Major credit cards happily accepted)
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill_Unlock_Pack
4) not enough storage? We got storage. For a small fee of course.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Xunlai_Storage_Pane
5) SIGH. It’s so tedious earning your PvP stuff.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/PvP_Item_Unlock_Pack

Now, tell me again that the Guild Wars 2 cash shop is so much worse.

Venomge.7142:

Zaoda.1653:

Yes please to Lyssa’s Armor, and I myself would like to see a return of the Mad King’s Outfit now that it’s no longer town clothing, but rather skins that can be used on any armor :-D

If I knew about the changes to the Mad King Outfit earlier, I would have bought it long ago, but since we didn’t, I didn’t buy it back then. It needs to return ASAP!

Mad Kings outfit is available in the Gem Store right now, for 7 days.

Ohh Ty for that info. (Trots off to gem store, gems clutched in her hot little hand while simultaneously burning a hole in her pocket).

Erich.1783:

One thing is that all the BL chest boosts and such could be added to the wallet. The ability to use them whenever wherever on whichever character might lead to them being used more, which could end up with people deciding they are not useless and possibly even buying some every now and again.

That’s a thought.

Mine now sit in my bank. Unless I think I’m really going to want a particular one, I don’t get it out of the bank, so they are underused. Even the times they could be useful, I don’t think of them or don’t have time to make a special trip to the bank. Who wants to clog up their character’s inventory with all the various boosts?

It seems to be random. I usually have one out (they are useful to see when you are lagging if nothing else) and some will stay with you when you swim and some won’t. I would prefer that if they don’t swim, that they stay anyway as resummoning them each time you take a short swim is annoying.

There are other things in game that are more immersion breaking my Asura says while she wears her wings, using a bow that shoots off unicorns with the ANet logo on their butt.

Those dungeons were so big compared to Guild Wars 2 dungeons. Expansive. Some of them it was almost a whole new map. They were non linear and you could go in some of them solo to farm valuable items. So different in design and dungeon philosophy. They make Guild Wars 2 dungeons feel small, cramped, and limited.

I loved going into the UW either solo or with one other to farm. We would go in there and actually have to plan a bit. Figure out how to handle the mobs. No stacking in a corner and autoattacking in those dungeons.

This isn’t an account problem that someone on this forum can help you with. This forum is for lost passwords, suspended/banned/hacked accounts, gem store purchases that don’t go through, etc.. Stuff that people contact support and file tickets for.

You might try making a post in the Discussion forum about how dishonored is handled or maybe the tech support forum about the disconnects.

No one mentioned DoA, aka Dead on Arrival. I enjoyed that one even though the first time I did it, no one warned me about that thing that was going to come out of the ground right beside me and scare the crap out of me. >.>

laokoko.7403:

Mastruq.2463:

laokoko.7403:

It’s not like they dont’ drop any more.

I thought they do not drop any more, am I wrong in that regard? (i.e. laurels or gemstore being the only sources for unidentified dye)

pretty sure I got a few from black lion chest recently. Maybe some one can confirm it. I have a short memory.

They still drop from black lion chests. I’ve been doing key runs and got a single yesterday and a double the day before.

If you can’t contact support through the forum then try emailing them at Support@guildwars2.com

kokiman.2364:

Why are they so obsessed with whacky finishers?

Because they are good sellers?

Did Ulgroth today.

No loot from champs

No chest.

I got there in plenty of time. Did the events. Got to the final event and there were too many people. Couldn’t hit the champs, my skills were endlessly cycling. Couldn’t hit Ulgroth, same thing. I checked my connection as my char stood there (she finally stowed her weapon without me hitting the stow weapon key). It was going along fine. Just……. too many people and effects for it too handle.

And then at the last few seconds I dc. Come back to an empty map. No other people. No Ulgroth.

No chest.

PLEASE. Give us options. Give us several bosses per time slot. Break up the zerg. We do not need a whole capped map for these events!

The person who hacked your account was undoubtably using it for gold selling, causing it to be flagged as such and then banned. Since the people who ban accounts are not part of support, they do what their job is, which here is to ban gold sellers, and let support work out the results with the account holder. You just need to work your way through the system.

Mystic.5934:

Astral Projections.7320:

From my experience, you get more dark matter from the BLSK than the mystic salvage kits. I was using mystic and when I switched to BLSKs there was a noticeable increase in frequency of getting dark matter.

I love people using me.

Sorry Mystic, but your Globs of Dark Matter were too few and far between to keep using you. I’ve moved on to a better salvage kit. :P

You still have my heart when it comes to ectos though, so don’t be too sad.

Idk, we’re not talking about a lot of high quality items except for one low quality one in the BL chests. Except for maybe the tickets and scraps it could be argued that ALL the items are low quality. For example there are the mystery tonics, the trading posts (if you aren’t a flipper), the tomes of knowledge if you don’t have alts to level, the various boosters that give you some low level boost. So why single this one out? When you got your key you should have known ahead of time you would most likely get junk. If you are key running then it was free. If you are paying gold or real money well, all I can say (besides “why?”) is caveat emptor. You knew it was likely to be junk going in.

Its a good idea to take all your characters to speak to him. The unlock is items from each individual character to go into the account wide wardrobe or to make tonics. If you have the horns on character A and only visit the NPC on character B, it won’t unlock.

I’m a little confused.

As an example, I’m on HoD server. When I go to FG I seem to land on one of two maps, judging by the node layouts. Are all the NA players also on these 2 maps or do they have their own set of maps based on which home server they are on? If it’s based on home server then only Gandara people and the servers who share those map versions can use your node maps.

Not that it’s not a nice try. I’m just wondering how many can use it.

Edit: spelling

Your suggestion to not burn a hair change kit if only an accessory is changed sounds like a good one to me. People would buy a kit just for that one type of use and buy a second one for hair color changes. ANet gets extra kit sales.

Maybe you should post this suggestion in this thread here as I bet they read that one and has been on the front page of that forum for a long time.

Guild Wars 1 has a grind to get max titles and Guild Wars 2 has a grind to get the end vanity items. It’s set up as the core of both games. They want you to earn them. Granted they didn’t do a very good job with the Legendaries in this game, but the no grind only referred to leveling not going after one of the end game goals.

An auto fail feature might be the best way. Defenders can farm for a while and the people who want to do the temple event will get their chance.

I was doing temples regularly before Megaservers. I think I’ve done them once since then.