Guild Wars 2

Much prefer the name to be “Punish the wicked” and also, i have to say just give us torment on crit for 1h weapons in radiance and be done with it, I already hate AI spam in this game, we dont need more.

Apolo.5942:

Poplolita.2638:

Apolo.5942:

Amins.3710:

Apolo.5942:

Amins.3710:

1) AoE Stability

Everyone has access to stability, redundancy does not mean much in a self sufficient oriented environment.

3) Point Controls

Other classes do this better due to the existence of poison.

4) Hands down best ~~Sustained~~ Grp Condi Removal in game

Same problem as 1

5) Best ~~ Sustained~~ Group Healing in game (Shout Warrior does better “Burst Healing” – and by better I mean “easier”, because a guardian will output more burst if spec’d to, it’s just much much harder to pull off)

Same problem as 1, exacerbated by the fact that devs do not want healer specs.

6) Combo Finishers Trump Warrior’s hands down. (Hammer / GS -> Blast (4s), Whirl (10s), Leap 12s)

which would be awesome if we had anything other light fields to trigger, plus hammer sucs all around, if it did not have the finisher nobody would play it.

1 & 4) Clearly you have reading issues: Sustained Group Based.

3) Poison does not equal Point Control.

5) I have no issues healing my group and making it my sole focus. Clearly you need my build and playstle. Feel free to browse around, you might learn a few things.

6) Combo Fields are there to ~enhance~ gameplay. Nuff said.

It’s evident you play GW2 – 1v1. Not Guild Wars.

Move along, nothing to see here.

1 and 4- clearly you have reading issues, redundant, see i can do that too

3- no, but guardian does point control through self healing, which gets neutered by poison.

5- me neither but you are doing it wrong, remember the whole “no trinity”

6- good ones sure they are, light, not so much.

Better check your game, guild wars are from guild wars 1 not guild wars 2

I seriously doubt you play tpvp for coming up with those responses. When you try to make a point, stick the the game mode you play, not the one you know nothing about, or you’ll simply spread misinformations. No, hotjoin does not count.

pf, Mesmer can easily heal allies at a rate of 2.8k every 5 seconds while still sustaining some pressure through dps and conditions and with out needing you to step in the small circle, but i am the one spreading miss information…

If your talking about Mantra healing, then your very mistaken about still being able to do dps/conditions, considering it makes you a sitting duck for the entire channel of the abilitiy, and also has only a 360 radius, which im assuming is compared to symbol healing, which does indeed only effect an area, but is far from our only group heal. and is actually one of the weakest group heals for a guardian…

Seras.5702:

If the Engineer & Ranger Ready-Up notes are any indication, I’d say we’ll get a few of the most vocally requested changes for the weakest aspects of the class. The changes those 2 classes are getting are based on the community’s suggestions and constant requests for improvements in those specific areas. And I’m choosing to extrapolate that to the Guardian Ready-Up.

I would be more inclined to the believe that, had they actually changed something they said they were going to change in previous balance patches that regarded feedback. Aka the 5% sword trait buff, that even they said seemed lack luster, asked for opinions, then did nothing.

So when our ready up comes for class balance…

A) Guardian is in a good place (Aka more boring “buffs” like the sword trait change that was talked about but never got changed)
B) We actually get some interesting trait changes that may lead to new types of play

place your bets!

Keksmuffin.1450:

Bash.7291:

This has been suggested multiple times in the past, yet we still have the same lack of escape mechanics that we have had since launch. It won’t ever change, since we are the “get in but don’t get out” class as anet has described us. Honestly after the last class run down they gave, I really do not think they see us as anything more than support either, considering that was ALL that they talked about in regards to guardian (being front line support)

Personally, I don’t even get too involved with team fights anymore for that reason. Unless I can pick off that random mes or thief that is on the outside of the point trying to get some health back, it just is not worth it to dive into a team fight unless you have every single CD up, and you HAVE to be out of that fight when they are gone. Otherwise, you are a lame duck waiting to be slaughtered.

Well the point is not making Merciful Intervention better at what it is (which would still be super situational and usually useless). The point is giving DPS guard a tool to disengage.

If the devs don’t want that because it would be against the class design or the design of the skill… I guess I would have to accept that. At least getting a statement on that would be nice but oh well.

They literally have said multiple times that the design idea of the guardian is that they can get into fights fairly quickly, but are meant to stay in the fight without disengaging. Mostly in class update livestreams if you want to go hunting for it.

(side note, going through john peter’s posting history looking for a quote on that was rather sad getting back to the dec 10th big balance patch, and seeing how little feedback we really did get compared to every other class)

This has been suggested multiple times in the past, yet we still have the same lack of escape mechanics that we have had since launch. It won’t ever change, since we are the “get in but don’t get out” class as anet has described us. Honestly after the last class run down they gave, I really do not think they see us as anything more than support either, considering that was ALL that they talked about in regards to guardian (being front line support)

Personally, I don’t even get too involved with team fights anymore for that reason. Unless I can pick off that random mes or thief that is on the outside of the point trying to get some health back, it just is not worth it to dive into a team fight unless you have every single CD up, and you HAVE to be out of that fight when they are gone. Otherwise, you are a lame duck waiting to be slaughtered.

By killing them with my conditions first….

That and mostly through straight damage avoidance after putting condi burst on them, blinds from GS/Sword/VoJ, blocks from VoC/shelter, destroying condition projectiles through ZD, and just straight removal through smite condition and contemplation of purity.

The big thing is just knowing when to use your condi cleanse, and knowing what to expect from certain classes, such as if you get glue bombed by an engi, expect other condi bombs/condi grenades, Don’t panic from signet of spite on a necro, as it more hampers you than damages you, if you have the health just let it wear off a bit and go from there.

If you are running a zerg in WvW though, just stack duration reduction and let your natural self sustain abilities take care of the rest.

Teckos.1305:

shelter is pretty much impossible to interrupt, gives you a lot of blocks and does not require you to put 30 points in valor with signet specific traits to be decent.
So do you even guard bro!

There is enough wrong with this that im not sure if you are just a troll or not…

Hybrid condi build works wonders against warrior, if you are willing to go that route.

As much as I know they wont change us at all, it is still good to hope.

1. Chance for torment on crit it radiance. The reason i suggest this is that currently we have no AoE source of condition damage in WvW, and it is pretty much impossible to run some type of condi spec in anything other than roaming (and even that is meh) In spvp the hybrid condi specs are coming along very nicely, simply because of it being conquest, and smaller numbers/less incoming damage overall. Also, it would synergize will with radiant retaliation in group fights.

2. Change shield, PLEASE

3. fix spirit weapons.

4. Soft CC. While I completely support the idea of being able to get into a fight easy but not being able to get out, that idea does NOTHING when people can get away from you whenever they so choose. If we are going to be forced to stay in fights, give us the tools to keep people in fights against us.

As said earlier, Mace is good for sPvP, both bunker and meditation burst builds. I also use torch with medi burst to keep burning on people for the extra 10-20% damage from traits (2 in zeal, 5 in radiance) Also, torch is amazing in Hybrid condi builds like the one I run.

First we already have to worry about random mobs wandering into our symbol of swiftness and putting us in combat, now this?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/282wjy/balance_philosophy_developer_livestream_notes/

Reading off this, My understanding is that they really think that guardian is nothing more than support, and is the only class that is listed at all that way.

SilkySmooth.1574:

my build is based on high end solo/teamQ matches, not random hotjoin. its not all stats which matter.

no gs? personal choise. hammer is for me the best weapon in any ranked match.

shimmering defense, whats the problem with that? free 12 sec burn

low power, i bet i hit much more then all of ur carrion builds, you got no crits at all and if you crit, its low. my sigil of intell will make me always land my spike with hammer.

low condi dmg.. ur (only) condi is burn. 835 with 1200 condi dmg, 672 with 700 condi dmg. This might seem like a big difference? 1 tick 160, 10 ticks 1600, 20 ticks 3200. my crits will do much more dmg then the 160 extra per tick. amplified wrath is the main reason why we guards dont need a high condi dmg at all.

i have played every (yes every) posible dps build for guardians, in both soloQ and teamQ. the main thing you need to be viable is sustain. `
carrion amulet is made for necro’s which got like tripple our HP. or warriors with all their stances.

so…

Yes, no GS, you lose out on non-cleansable condition, a gap closer, and a blind. You also lose out on the healing and damage boost you would get from zealous blade, since you need to go that far into the line for amp wrath anyways.

Shimmering defense: Because it only activates when you are almost dead, and a burn that long is a waste when a single condi cleanse can completely negate it. Our ability to constantly apply short duration burns is what gives us our decent condi damage at the moment, a trait like that which can be completely negated in a second just feels lacking. Also, the fact that your burn does less damage also makes it even less appealing, as people are not going to feel as required to use condi removal simply because your burns are not as much of a threat, and will be more likely to have some removal for when you do put that long duration burn on them.

low power: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/ Go here, go to guardian and go to manual and put in the difference of our stats, ( you need to add them to the base) yours is 734 power, 25% crit chance, 50 crit damage, mine is 1118 power, 5% crit chance, and 20% crit damage. Scroll down to effective power.

Low condi damage. We actually have 2 conditions as a base, and can add 2 more through sigils. We start off with burn and binding blades, I use doom/geo sigils so that gives me poison and bleed too. (i also use blind exposure as a condi cover and to help boost my physical damage) at 1k condi damage, the condi’s listed add up to about 1800 per second of damage, plus whatever physical damage you are pumping out.
Meanwhile, you have… well i cant see your sigils, but you already said intel is one, but I will not make assumptions on the other. Either way, your condi damage is going to be much lower.

Grats on playing everything ever, and grats on your solo/team queue success, I fully admit you are most likely a better player than I am. but please don’t assume that just because you do have more experience means that the build is better. When you start off your statement with “my build is based on high end solo/teamQ matches, not random hotjoin.” it makes you come off as very elitist. My experience is mostly with hotjoin I do admit , however, I do have people in my guild that are pretty well ranked in solo and team queue (top 10 and top 20 respectively) that i have tried and tested my build against, and it works as well. So don’t just assume that every hotjoin hero like myself has no skill or no clue what they are talking about.

Lucentfir.7430:

SilkySmooth.1574:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dlsApcoVDxZI8DNR8QZVHUdAkAP61zwPkDA-TpgMgAA7PIXGAA

drop the carrion, its not good for a guard.

celestial is the key for any hybrid build. i burn for 670, much lower yes. but my crit dmg is 200% and 30% crit chance. also my armor is 2.8k so im super tanky.
you really dont need any more burn uptime then this. let me list ur burns:

burn every 5th hit (virtue of justice)
virtue of justice active 2x
burn on block( 5x aegis, focus 5, shelter)
judge’s intervention
purging flames
shimmering defense

if you didnt kill ur enemy by now, its a bunker:D

i have 3200 tourneys on my guard and 80% of it is dps. most of the builds listed up here arent viable for tournaments, maby just for fun in hotjoins. sustain is key in winning with a (semi) burn build

If you’re going to make a burn power condi spec, you’re better off with Carrion than celestial. The vitality from Carrion will fill the void of not putting any points in honor, and by going 6 in valor you get sustain and toughness. Carrion based builds I can do about 800 ticks on burn while having over 2k power(I run Flame legion Runes). Not to mention my damage ramps up for every block with might of the defender, and stack burns easy with Defender’s flame. Very low crit but respectable damage amps from burning foes=17%(22% if you decide to take Zealous blade).

GS because GS 5 scales off Condi damage, and Symbol of Wrath has retal(scales on power). Celestial isn’t really good on guard tbh unless you have selfless daring, more conditions other than burning. Other professions like Ele, Engi, and Warrior can makes the best use of of it because there are some builds that use every stat effectively.

Bunkers die when you put doom sigil and geomancy(my preference) to work in tandem with your burning.

Random tip, try using rune of the pirate, I have found that if you use torch offhand for one of your sets you can keep good burning up time without needing the extra duration on runes, and the bird hits like a freaking truck.

SilkySmooth.1574:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAS7dlsApcoVDxZI8DNR8QZVHUdAkAP61zwPkDA-TpgMgAA7PIXGAA

drop the carrion, its not good for a guard.

celestial is the key for any hybrid build. i burn for 670, much lower yes. but my crit dmg is 200% and 30% crit chance. also my armor is 2.8k so im super tanky.
you really dont need any more burn uptime then this. let me list ur burns:

burn every 5th hit (virtue of justice)
virtue of justice active 2x
burn on block( 5x aegis, focus 5, shelter)
judge’s intervention
purging flames
shimmering defense

if you didnt kill ur enemy by now, its a bunker:D

i have 3200 tourneys on my guard and 80% of it is dps. most of the builds listed up here arent viable for tournaments, maby just for fun in hotjoins. sustain is key in winning with a (semi) burn build

/sigh… No GS, shimmering defense, low power, low condition damage… yeah…. gonna pass on that.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

As far as the off topic build discussions, I have to really disagree with the thought that radiance is the way to go over valor. Considering that radiant retaliation is not that much of an improvement on damage over regular power based retaliation, and that most, if not all builds already use carrion amulet, the damage difference is not worth the massive trade off in survivability that you get from valor.

Depends.

Do you consider the 33% retaliation dmg reduction significant? Most guardian players will not go full zeal in a power build. So with a amulet with power as the main stat, retaliation does 238 dmg per hit.

With radiant retaliation and 1500 condition dmg it does 289 damage per hit. It doesn’t seem like a lot but when consider fast hitting skills then the difference adds up. So in just two attacks you end up hitting for 100 more dmg and that continues to scale upward the more the target hits you.

With radiant retaliation it increases retaliation damage by around 21%. So the ret pvp nerf is signicantly decreased. For a power user they will feel the 33% nerf, for a condition user with the radiant ret its around 11-12% nerf. Is that a big difference to you? I guess it depends how one looks at it.

If you are going to compare a power build to a condi build for this, you also need to include the amount of retaliation uptime, which power builds are going to have much more of due to being able to trait into virtues for the extra sources/duration.

In all honesty, as far as i can tell with what you have posted (6/6/2/0/0) for what your spec is, you actually have very little retaliation uptime. I am going based off the assumption that you only have signet of judgement, leap finisher with GS, and possibly Stand your ground as your only sources. Meanwhile any power build that traits 3 into virtues will have much better up time, and thus end up dealing more damage.

What is stopping one from going 6 into radiance and 3 into virtues?

I was going off of your 6/6/2/0/0 that you listed yourself. There is nothing to stop that, except you are gimping your burning damage by doing so.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

As far as the off topic build discussions, I have to really disagree with the thought that radiance is the way to go over valor. Considering that radiant retaliation is not that much of an improvement on damage over regular power based retaliation, and that most, if not all builds already use carrion amulet, the damage difference is not worth the massive trade off in survivability that you get from valor.

Depends.

Do you consider the 33% retaliation dmg reduction significant? Most guardian players will not go full zeal in a power build. So with a amulet with power as the main stat, retaliation does 238 dmg per hit.

With radiant retaliation and 1500 condition dmg it does 289 damage per hit. It doesn’t seem like a lot but when consider fast hitting skills then the difference adds up. So in just two attacks you end up hitting for 100 more dmg and that continues to scale upward the more the target hits you.

With radiant retaliation it increases retaliation damage by around 21%. So the ret pvp nerf is signicantly decreased. For a power user they will feel the 33% nerf, for a condition user with the radiant ret its around 11-12% nerf. Is that a big difference to you? I guess it depends how one looks at it.

If you are going to compare a power build to a condi build for this, you also need to include the amount of retaliation uptime, which power builds are going to have much more of due to being able to trait into virtues for the extra sources/duration.

In all honesty, as far as i can tell with what you have posted (6/6/2/0/0) for what your spec is, you actually have very little retaliation uptime. I am going based off the assumption that you only have signet of judgement, leap finisher with GS, and possibly Stand your ground as your only sources. Meanwhile any power build that traits 3 into virtues will have much better up time, and thus end up dealing more damage.

The only place where I say we need improvement regarding condition traits is in WvW team fights, as we do not have enough access to decent hitting AoE conditions to justify using conditions.

In spvp we are fine though, perm wrath doesn’t really have a place in spvp simply because it is very rare to be going up against more than 2-3 people at a time, and even if it is a full 5v5 team fight you still have a good chunk of AoE damage from GS and mass burning through either JI or Purging flames and torch #4 to keep people burning that are on point.

As far as the off topic build discussions, I have to really disagree with the thought that radiance is the way to go over valor. Considering that radiant retaliation is not that much of an improvement on damage over regular power based retaliation, and that most, if not all builds already use carrion amulet, the damage difference is not worth the massive trade off in survivability that you get from valor.

Charak.9761:

That’s why you can use both sceptor/sword and take advantage of RHS

or, drop the sword, use only the sceptor, drop 10 from radiance and +10 in zeal for 10% scepter damage

If you are not using GS in a condi hybrid build then you are doing it wrong. Binding blades is insane in this build, simply because the first hit can do a good chunk of damage, but the dot it leaves is effected by condition damage, and CAN NOT BE CLEANSED unless people effected leave a 600 range, and it is also an AoE, AND can also be used as a pull to help finish someone off if they try to run and are low.

Also, WW is great for damage and burning application, leap of faith for gap closer + damage + blind, Symbol for retal + damage, and your auto attack gives you might and cleaves… Also, with zealous blade, every hit heals you adding to your survivability.

GS is mandatory for a hybrid build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAsfRlsApboVDxcI8DRR8QljNVHANwje9PMD5AA-TJRHwABOFAILDA4JAoe/BA

Charak is correct in saying that you should be running meditations, however just taking a standard trip med dps and using a carrion amulet is not the right way to do it.

first off, use torch, not focus. yes, focus has a block and a potential condition cleanse, but in any fight that is more than 1 on 1, you cannot count on that always giving you the cleanse. The block is nice, but the CD is rather long, even with focus mastery. Torch increases your burning uptime by a very large amount with #4, and can also be used as a burst skill considering you have 2k power, and also adds another chunk of burning at range. Torch #5 is good in team fights for both damage and ally condition cleanse and if people are staying just out of range, and also because it is a rapid hit attack and can apply burning quickly.

I also prefer sword over scepter, simply because it lets me stay on top of people better for torch #4, but also because it is a blind and it also has zealot’s defense to help absorb some projectiles if you are taking heat from a range class (ranger zerk longbow/DS necro)

The 6/1/6/0/1 Hybrid build does really well against most ele builds, main thing is to make sure you don’t burst all of your conditions on them until you know if they have Diamond skin or not. If they do just smack them around a bit then condi burst them.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNAR8flsApaodDxcI8DNR8QZVIUdA0AP61/wMkDA-TJRHwAV2fIwVAAZZAAPEAA

Welcome to the age of hybrid condi burst.

Burning + poison + 3 bleed stacks +binding blades = around 1800 per tick + your physical damage.

a t s e.9614:

lol I met a guard today running a similar build , He forgot about berserker stance and got rekt. Ultimate 1v1 build until you run into a warrior

Have had very little issues with warriors with a similar build even with zerker stance. Just means you save the condi burst for after when you know they don’t have the immunity.

Ugh. no.

First off, if you are running that build you NEED to run GS for 2 reasons.
1) Binding blades counts as a condition, and cannot be removed unless the target moves out of range, this bypasses all condition immunity as well (such as zerker stance)

2) Zealous blade is a HUGE help to this build to get extra healing, and a bit of extra damage.

Second, What is with shimmering defense, we already have really good burning application, what is the point of another that only activates at low health. Switch it out for inner fire for extra crit chance, or just drop the points there and put into virtues for the extra prot/might/regen.

Charak.9761:

meanwhile…

conditions ignore your armour and is the current meta of dmg.

Conditions also run on their own set of rules and can be negated completely through removal or lessened by duration reduction. Also they are only the “meta” in sPvP, and considering this thread was originally based on runes that are not even available in sPvP, the point is kinda moot.

Amins.3710:

Omnitek.3876:

You might as well have use slow motion, used dubstep and zoomed on the crits.

Don’t be jealous of us making slow-mo, dubstep’d crit zoom’n ownage vid’s….h8’r.

Clearly you’re in the minority!

PS: Keep posting vid’s, seems there’s only a handful of us able to do it and the others just h8… cuz they lack any skill to show off

Or our comps suck and just being in WvW is a hassle let alone trying to record. :P

Waffler.1257:

foofad.5162:

You do not actually gain less benefit the further out you are on the x plane.

foofad.5162:

You do gain less damage reduction per point of toughness

The only benefit that toughness provides in this game is direct damage reduction. I hope you can see how you are contradicting yourself.

And I hope you can see how you only cherry pick parts of Foo’s lines to try to prove your point. Use his whole post or provide some actual proof instead of just taking half of lines that suit your needs.

Treeoflife.4031:

RedCobra.7693:

Treeoflife.4031:

You could always run the new condi guardian burn set up. Sword torch…scepter focus i think it is. Consecrations for grp condi removal aoe burn, and stability. I will say its a bit weak vs other condi classes but you can perma burn ppl despite their condi removal. Not sure of the exact build but it might go nice as it is a bit unexpected at this point.

if he means havoc as in properly causing havoc to pug zergs and holding tower/camps, then that wont suffice im afraid, my engi with every condi known to man has difficulty fighting the huge amount of condi cleanse pugs have, even if you could apply burning every second you’d still be looking at a 50% uptime of fire only in outnumbered fights

Right i guess its pretty situation pending, wasn’t too specific in OP. Same could be said about the PU mesmer if that’s the case tho. But the condi guard isnt in a bad place. plus burn doesnt scale too well with condi damage so maybe theres a good hybrid that is yet to be discovered. just an alternative since Anet is making condi guard a thing…

Working on the hybrid for wvw, but currently it works pretty well in sPvP.

Yeah, reward progression, and rank points are not being rewarded at all in hotjoin.

fadeaway.2807:

I’m sorry I came across rude to begin with when I couldn’t see it was a pvp/wvw build (this truly is trash in pve), but I still think Guardians are in a bad position when it comes to condition diversity.

In order to understand what will and won’t work/become meta it’s important to understand why existing things work.
Condition engis, blackwater mesmers and necros for example:

Multiple conditions means great difficulty in removing them reliably. High chance you will cleanse something other than the most damaging one. Many of these builds can reliably apply a huge variety of conditions. How many can the guardian apply?

There’s no escape – How do you avoid an incendiary ammunition or a dhuumfire proc? You can’t. You can dodge some attacks, but dodges don’t proc failed procs. The proc will sit waiting until a hit connects. This is huge because your high impact hits will never fail you. Compare this with purging flames which has an obvious cast time and animation. Unless you can force a fight inside the circle, they will simply avoid it.

Low duration, high reapplication – further lessens the impact of cleansing. How many different ways to we have to apply the same conditions? Compare this with a staff mesmer with 3 clones out all throwing burn/bleed/critbleed every second.

Time buying – What abilities do we have to prolong the fight? Compare this with the sheer amount of cc/stealth/life vamp the above classes.

How much of the condition damage on a mesmer/engineer/necro comes from traits/weapons and how much comes from utilities? If we want more ways to apply our conditions we have to use our utility slots. A mesmer for example will simply load up on blinks and stealths. An engi can build up a huge amount of bleed/poison/burn without bothering with utils/sigils.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNArfRlsApboVDxcI8DRR8QlT1BQD8o4c9PEE5AA-TJRHwAV2fIwpAAZZAAPBAA

This is the build I am using in sPvP. Sustain comes from meditation healing, damage comes from a combination of conditions and straight physical damage. Critical chance is very low, but is made up for with the fury from mediations. Burning uptime is almost perm depending on cleanses obviously, but can generally be re-applied very quickly. My burning ticks for around 800 per second. However, there is another big thing that really is not mentioned much, and something you overlooked. Binding blade adds another 400+ per tick. with just burning and that alone you are already at 1200 per second, add in poison and 3 stacks of bleed on a weapon swap, and the straight out 1800 power + 24% crit with fury on, and it adds up to ALOT of damage.

The thing you keep overlooking is that the damage does not just come from burning alone.Yes, it is the biggest source of this build’s damage, but with the other conditions, and the straight physical damage (i still see 3k crits on torch throw) it combines very well, and does alot of varied damage.

fadeaway.2807:

Have you considered using staff with the pbaoe burn trait in virtues? Easier application, less vulnerable to cleanses, great at covering other conditions.
Also, apothecary gear for wvw support? All the sustain and ehp of healway cleric but with conditions instead of power.

All of this was possible before patch, so consider why it wasn’t being used.

33% extra to burning wasn’t made available before the patch, which is where alot of this testing is coming from. I finally got the chance to test it vs people i consider decent, and a carrion version in sPvP works, and works rather well. WvW might be a different beast, and is going to require alot more work and testing, but don’t just shove stuff off because it isn’t the “meta” at least yet.

Crapgame.6519:

Bash.7291:

There is one thing im going to suggest, and going to try testing soon hopefully, but messiah, try using some carrion gear as well. I took your spec (with a minor change, and used carrion in sPvP and have been flat out destroying people, to the point that they have been asking me about the build. But I am very curious to see how it translates over into WvW.

Mind if I ask how you live with Carrion gear? That ist he set that I’m using more or less and with 2300k armor I get melted by ambient bunnies. Of course I’m talking about WvW.

Group play I can live longer but I’m standing back. Solo roaming I don’t think I’ve killed one single person yet but then again I’m used to full zerk build and probably still need time to figure out the dance…

havent tried WvW yet, only sPvP, :P

However the build i was looking into has about 2.8k armor, and around 21k health, its a mix of carrion/dire (with guard stacks)

There is one thing im going to suggest, and going to try testing soon hopefully, but messiah, try using some carrion gear as well. I took your spec (with a minor change, and used carrion in sPvP and have been flat out destroying people, to the point that they have been asking me about the build. But I am very curious to see how it translates over into WvW.

fadeaway.2807:

To be fair I don’t see wvw mentioned either.
Not all of us have the inclination to watch a bad youtube clip or the ability to access youtube. You should explain the build and purpose in the original post.

Besides, both the math and logic are still totally flawed.

There already is a build thread for this, this was just a video to show the damage. Also why so much hostility? We have new tools that need to be tested and I give him credit for actually going through and showing what they can do. There really is no need to call the video bad, or to say there is any flawed logic.

fadeaway.2807:

Awful build and logic. Almost all of your pve enemies will be perma burned anyway for the short duration of their life.

Therefore how much damage are you actually adding over what would have been inflicted anyway? Probably about 33% of a few burning ticks. And that’s why a condition Guardian will be kicked from any serious pve group.

uhhhhhh I don’t see anything about PvE in this thread… at all…

So, I messed around in sPvP some, and found a build that I felt worked very very well.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNArdRlsApboVDxcI8DRR8QlT1BQD8o4c9PEE5AA-TJRHwAV2fIwpAAZZAAPBAA

Essentially just a hybrid version instead of a pure condition version. Crit is horrible but the triple med with fury on use makes some useful burst. I treat Binding blade as a condition for the most part and only use the pull when needed. Granted this build was just tested in hotjoin, but I feel it worked pretty well. Actually managed to get 2 people down when jumping into a 4v1 (wanted to test the damage/survivability)

The real test will be against my GM on his Ele in a duel though, as I tend to base my current builds against him simply because how how adaptable eles can be, and the fact that he is just a really good player.

messiah.1908:

Bash.7291:

My question is though, how do you sustain. How do you remove conditions, how do you keep your health up in larger group fights? (15-20+) What build would you use that could give that much burning, with that much damage, with enough duration to actually let the burns cause damage, that also has sustain and condition removal?

my build revolve around meditation so 6,1,6,0,1 with full meditation which heals me ~2k each utility and 5k from merciful intervention and also remove conditions
i got 100% burning duration
my main problem is not in 15-20 ppl group rather than blob. if i dodge the wrong way i cant handle the train rushing me (nor any other class). but i can block for 2-6 seconds
so even after my enemy cleanse his condition i can put burning right after while his cd is 30-45 i have enough time to deal dmg.

Ok, then how do you keep burning on constantly on 4-9 people at a time, JI only hits 5, torch #4 only hits 3, and your VoJ only hits 1.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

I’ll be bold enough to say that condition guardian maybe in a better overall position than a power guardian in pvp. I say this because the number 1 offender (lack of soft cc) does not stop a condition guardian from doing damage.

Amplified wrath is a extraordinary trait, the biggest problem is the preceding traits leading up to amplified wrath do nothing to synergize with the trait. Other than fiery wrath of course, but if one is condition spec I’m not sure if fiery wrath is worth it.

In sPvP? No. The lack of soft CC is pretty much not noticed just due to the fact of capture points. Hell, the fact that mace can actually be used in sPvP is clear indicator of that.

In roaming/small group WvW, it all depends. Scepter is an amazing weapon assuming you know better than to try to use it at full range. When used like a melee weapon with extended range it really does a good job at keeping damage on someone. Also with the changes to runes of speed/traveler (a few patches ago) keeping one someone isn’t as bad as it used to be. Also now with the added rune slot we can add in either sigil of ice or hydromancy to help with some soft CC. Or you can just be a complete jerk and use Reaper of Grenth to troll.

In large group, well the lack of soft cc is thrown out the window anyways…

And I do agree that the new grandmaster is a pretty decent trait, but as you said, it is in a horrible place. It has no synergy with anything else in the line, and if you want to build on it with something like permeating wrath or radiant retaliation, you pretty much have to sacrifice any and all survivability. I was Just playing around tying to make an AoE large group burn build and going 6/x/x/x/6 earlier on one of the build sites, going full dire I sat at around 3k armor and 17k health, which is fairly modest, but the issue is that there was no way to heal any of it. And considering that permeating wrath is focused on the guardian, you HAVE to be in the middle of the fights to land it.

Also, as far as radiant retaliation goes, the cap kills it. It barely does enough more than a decent power build would, and either you have to choose to go that route and spec into virtues to get really good uptime, or you have to go the extra burning damage and forget about condition retal as you wont have the points to get the extra uptime from virtues (3 trait points for retal on virtues)

messiah.1908:

for my point of view as i started play as support and than bunker in wvw, my guardian didnt do much sustain dmg if i wanted him to survive in the melee front with +2k power.
sure if you compare it to power zerk meditation build which dies insane dmg but its roaming build and not group one.
the condition allows me to do aoe burn between 3-5k on 4-9 ppl, and if i target 1 enemy i can do 8-12k till he dies as i can stay on him easily.
while power hammer or sword can do the same on smaller number of ppl 1-3 but protection/blocks/dodges/high armor will negate direct dmg.

ppl mistaking trying to compare condition to power. power is burst dmg on one location while condition is dmg over time.
so consider the enemy group taking heave burst dmg and going to heal themselve while if i put condition the dmg still tick

so the main question is does the condi guard can do better dmg over condi necro/engi in group fight…

so its different play style which i think some group will adopt it in the future as more of us will try it

My question is though, how do you sustain. How do you remove conditions, how do you keep your health up in larger group fights? (15-20+) What build would you use that could give that much burning, with that much damage, with enough duration to actually let the burns cause damage, that also has sustain and condition removal?

Lord Trejgon.2809:

about the topic: thing that many here seems to be missing is the fact that retaliation scales damage not with your power but with power of a guy that attack. (at least it used to – if there were a change – point me to patch notes that states it scaling with your stats)

so as for my logic radiant retaliation is ANet answer to guardians issue that in era of condi builds retaliations wasn’t a good deal (no more trolling power glass cannons thiefs – cause they changed builds for condi ones)
so with that trait we are swapping our retaliation to hit condi-based enemies instead of those power-based.

seems like a deal for me…..

It was never based on the person hitting you, only the person who applied it. It scales with the user’s power (or condition damage for guards with the trait)

My question is though, is that really better than what a power guard could have done? Yes, you can get high burning numbers, but is it going to be better than what you could achieve with a power build, if not, then whats the point?

Something that could actually be compared to a power build? As it stands, there really is no up side to take conditions compared to power as a guardian, be it bunker, glass cannon, or somewhere in between.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.

I’m saying there is no need to think about it not being in a trait line when you can easily get the sigil in pve/wvw. I mentioned sigil of earth, doom and geomancy because those can be used since there is no sigil of torment in spvp.

There is a need to think about it, because sigils/runes alone are NOT enough to make guardians have a viable condition build. MAYBE a hybrid build could work, and I have been testing and trying to make it work, but as it stands at the moment, a straight condition build does not work because we have to give up way to much to get it ,just like amins said.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

With sigil of torment and rune of tormenting, I can maintain 2 stacks just by auto attacking with the sword. Using a heal will make it 4 stacks.

In spvp try sigil of earth, doom and geomancy.

I am not sure why exactly you are telling me this, I simply said that instead of giving us another fail of a condition grandmaster trait they could just simply give us a torment on crit trait that would help alot of issues and would make sense in our perc/cond line.

Aza.2105:

Bash.7291:

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

Why not just use sigil of torment?

A) Not available in sPvP
B) A single extra stack of a stacking condition is near pointless. And the AoE on it is only a 180 radius.

They do scale with power, go into spvp and look at the tooltips with a rabid amulet, then with zerker amulet.

Maybe if they gave us torment on crit they would need any of these stupid attempts that fail hard…

I run my own personal med build and find that GS with M/T works VERY well against them. JI in and GS 5, pull them together, symbol, ww, switch to mace, use the block, which should activate right away, by then, most minions are going to be dead, which leaves the necro very vulnerable, and also hurting because your generally going to be hitting them too.

Im so glad to see they botched this trait like I expected they would… /sarcasm.

The only way they could have made this work was to make it have a significant difference in damage compared to power since it was something power build ALREADY HAD. To make it even viable it would have to be so much of a change to make up for the loss of damage from going to power to a burning build… And they didn’t even come close.